Brando has joined Snuggles at The Bridge; PHEO - Need Info and Advice Please

[molly muffin]

We'll wait with you Vicki! Glad you were able to get it done today.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

aww thank you Sharlene :)

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, I'm so glad you were able to work out the logistics of getting in to see the vet to have this done and that the weather cooperated! Anxious to see the results and praying for the best!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Trish]

Hi Vicki - glad you got there safely to have the urine tests done. I will be looking out for the results next week with interest too. I am going to ask our IMS about his thoughts in relation to this test too! x

[goldengirl88]

Hi Vicki:
Thinking of you and your boys. I am going to talk to the IMS about some of the Eastern medicinal herbs etc. Like what you are doing. I want you to give me your
opinion on Tippers situation. I may go for the MRI and if no invasion of the vena cava, and no where near invading it, may wait and see the next us. Hugs to the boys, and I hope for good results on Tuesday. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thank you Leslie and Trish :) Oh niice Trish I will be curious to hear what he says.

[beaglemom3]

Hi Vicki:
Thinking of you and your boys. I am going to talk to the IMS about some of the Eastern medicinal herbs etc. Like what you are doing. I want you to give me your
opinion on Tippers situation. I may go for the MRI and if no invasion of the vena cava, and no where near invading it, may wait and see the next us. Hugs to the boys, and I hope for good results on Tuesday. Blessings
Patti

Sounds like a good idea Patti, I pray that Tipper's tumor has not invaded the vena cava.

The doctor I go to for the Chinese Herbal Meds gave my boys stasis breaker for their tumors. and I really think it is helping. They seem to be doing well on it. I am pretty upset and haven't mentioned it here but the Pharmacy messed up and they have not been on the stasis breaker since Monday, but it will be delivered tomorrow, I ran out and by mistake they sent me 2 Wei Qi Boosters instead of 1 of each, so my vet reordered it on Saturday and the pharmacy goofed again and didn't ship it, not sure why but it has definitely shipped Tuesday and will have it tomorrow.

I believe I see a difference these few days them not having it. The vet said no harm will come to their tumors for missing it these few days, but Snugs seems more quiet and Branny is looking a bit droopy again. I can't wait for these meds to be here it is making me angry and anxious.

[beaglemom3]

Forgot to mention you can find a Chinese Herbal Vet on the pharmacy site near you if you wanted to have a consultation with them and see what they prescribe for Tipper.

If you go here and put in your zip and state hopefully one will be near enough you can call or go see.

http://www.tcvmherbal.com/

[molly muffin]

Oh No! What is it with the pharmacies lately. Barbara had a big ta-do with her pharmacy over a lost shipment. sheezzz. We all have enough stress without it being added to.

You just hang in there. Glad you'll get it tomorrow!

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Sharlene I hope the vet was right that being off that meds will not give them a set back tumor wise.

[molly muffin]

I hope so too but just has you have faith that this will help them, you have to trust that they know enough about it to know if there would be any effect from missing a couple days. I figure they have hopefully studied this enough to know how long it's effective in the system, how long after it is stopped that you might see regrowth and how long do they need to stay on it. All things that as a practitioner they would likely know.

You'll feel better once you get them back on it I know.

hugs
sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Good points Sharlene I didn't think of those, I guess when it comes to our own be cant' see things too clearly, thank you :)

[molly muffin]

Nope, it is entirely different when it is your own. I am the same way with my molly. I need other eyes to see and advise because I don't think as clearly I guess when it is my own. Every decision is a hard one to make and you second guess yourself constantly and worry endlessly. I do understand. It's why we are all here, we each need the other. :) :)

big hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

You are so right..:)

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Thinking of you and the boys. Fingers crossed for the best news Tuesday. I emailed the IMS about what you are using for the boys, to see if she is familiar with Eastern medicine, and what she thinks of it. Waiting to hear answers on the many questions I have. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks so much Patti, Tipper is in my prayers as well, I will be interested in hearing if your IMS knows anything about Chinese Herbal meds and what she thinks, my local vet doesn't.

[beaglemom3]

I don't want to upset anyone , but I feel it is important to caution due to my experiences with an US and MRI, the 4D US did not show vena cava invasion for Snuggles but the MRI did, which was pretty devastating to find out after thinking and being told there was no invasion, that there was.

I believe the US and MRI were taken only 1 month apart but I will double check on that, also the US showed the tumor larger than it was on the MRI.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
This will definitely be a major factor in what I do with Tipper so I do want this done as I cannot make a decision without knowing this. I am waiting for the IMS but she is so busy it will be a few days before she answers me. Waiting is my Achilles heal. Hope you and the boys are good. Praying for good news Tuesday!
Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

I'll keep that in mind Vicki, since they told me that Molly's hadn't invaded anything and they aren't sure it is a tumor or an adenoma or what.

Good point to remember Vicki.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

Flynn's was picked up on ultrasound and it clearly showed the vena cava infiltration. He had a CT for staging prior to his surgery.

I should point out though, over the year it took us to get the pheo diagnosis he had 3 ultrasounds until it was finally seen on the last one. A year prior he had a CT before his liver surgery. Once the pheo was seen on that last ultrasound they went back and looked at the year old CT and in retrospect they could see a tiny speck in his adrenal that they thought was insignificant back then. So Flynn's did grow significantly in that time period. His tumour was 1.1 x1.5cm with 1cm protruding into the vena cava.

[beaglemom3]

I should add this which I totally forgot, the MRI w/o contrast did not show vena cava invasion but with contrast it did :(

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Thanks for the info, I am going to question the IMS about it. I am taking today reap easy as I have a cardiology appointment tomorrow and will be leaving at 4 am. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Good luck I hope you get a good report from you cardiologist!

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Thank you. Blessings
patti

[beaglemom3]

My vet called with my boys pheo/cushings urine tests
I put them in a pdf file
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6233450/myboys.pdf
I included Snugs first urine test which was done back in November.

The yellow highlighted values are my boys values to determine if they have a pheo. As you can see the lab now has reference ranges for it now :)
Snuggles value still isn't 4 times greater but the pathologist is pretty certain it is a result for a pheo :(
Snuggles values actually went down a bit, my vet spoke to the pathologist for 30 minutes but she said it is good they went down but she/he still feels he has a pheo BUT it has not changed since Nov which is good.
and he does not have Cushings.
YAY Snuggie boy!

Branny is normal! no cushings no pheo YAY Branny!

Both the pathologist and my vet feel we should do nothing at this point since Snugs is still showing no outwards signs of the pheo Thank God. and in about 1 month we do another MRI to make sure the vena cava is not being invaded more which I pray to God not.

They actually used 2 controls one from my vet and one from a dog at the lab in WI

Reminder this is the clinical conclusion for this test:
Dogs with HAC might have increased concentrations of urinary catecholamines and normetanephrine. A high concentration of urinary normetanephrine (4 times normal), is highly suggestive of PHEO.

[Trish]

But it is over x4 the control so I am not sure why they are saying that unless I am doing my math wrong??

Normet/creat - control 124 (124 x 4 = 496)
Snuggles result 660.
So by my calculations Snuggles is 5.3x higher than the control, which fits in with the parameters of a pheo diagnosis. The article does say in pheo dogs the metanephrine is also elevated in pheo dogs and Snugs looks normal on that test. But that the normetaphine has more sensitivity and specificity.

One thing I though odd, but this is the first time looking at a result from this test is that Snuggles random creatinine 124 vs control 633?? I would have thought that would have some impact on the result? But obviously I have no clue how to interpret that. I just know that when Flynn's urinary creatinine protein ratio is interpreted and his creatinine level is high it really changes the outcome for the whole ratio. Basically I do not understand it :D

Hopefully the scan will show no increase in size!

[beaglemom3]

But it is over x4 the control so I am not sure why they are saying that unless I am doing my math wrong??

Normet/creat - control 124 (124 x 4 = 496)
Snuggles result 660.
So by my calculations Snuggles is 5.3x higher than the control, which fits in with the parameters of a pheo diagnosis. The article does say in pheo dogs the metanephrine is also elevated in pheo dogs and Snugs looks normal on that test. But that the normetaphine has more sensitivity and specificity.

One thing I though odd, but this is the first time looking at a result from this test is that Snuggles random creatinine 124 vs control 633?? I would have thought that would have some impact on the result? But obviously I have no clue how to interpret that. I just know that when Flynn's urinary creatinine protein ratio is interpreted and his creatinine level is high it really changes the outcome for the whole ratio. Basically I do not understand it :D

Hopefully the scan will show no increase in size!

I will ask my vet but I think they are going by the reference range of (37 -261) 261* 4= 1044 but I will get clarification on that.

I didn't understand the random creatinine value either or what it means, but Snuggles is much lower than the ctrl. Snuggles 124 ..ctrl 633 I will call him today and see if I can get an explanation for both. When he went over the results with me I did not have the tests results in front of me.

He did mention to me one result he found odd and waited to speak to the pathologist about it as well, but not sure what that was now.

[beaglemom3]

actually I looked at Brandos to compare his random creat was 137 and ctrl was 635. I will see what I can find out about that value.
Do you know what random creatinine means?

[Trish]

I wondered that myself, but the comments on Dr Peterson's blog clearly say it is vs control.
"The Bottom Line—Currently, a urine normetaphrine/creatinine level, appears to be the most sensitive and specific test to document a pheochromocytoma. This test requires that the urine sample is acidified at the time of collection and a control urine sample from a normal dog (also acidified) is submitted. A urine normetaphrine/creatinine level at least 4-times the control is consistent with pheochromocytoma".

If it was just x4 times the highest of reference range I do not see why they would need a control at all.

[Trish]

From what I understand about the use of creatinine in the protein/creatinine ratios is that creat does not vary wildly through the day, and the test looking at protein excretion shows the variation is much less when they compare to the creatinine and express the result as a ratio.

I think that would be the same as the normetanephrine, in that it would vary throughout the day dependent on what is happening with the dog, stress, other disease etc and they are trying to get a stable reading. Which is why in the past they have had to get 24hr urine collections so they get a daily average and use that as a result. Rather than a one-off specimen which might be when a dog is under more stress at the vets for example. By comparing it with the creatinine level it is meant to take out those variations. :confused: confused, I am!! Ask your vet when you chat to him, I would be interested in the answer too!

[beaglemom3]

Good point unless Dr Peterson wrote that article before they had a reference range, and maybe the ctrl is to make sure the ref range and crtl match up since it is a new test (collecting data and verifying test etc)? The did not have a ref range back in Nov when Snugs had his first test.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Thank you for thinking of me. I am still waiting on the IMS. Tipper was having tremors when I observed her, so she is having them throughout the nite,and I don't realize it unless she is sleeping close to me. So from what I gather Granny does not have the pheo, but Snugs does?. I was hoping neither of them would have one. I am not feeling well today, I am tired. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I was posting to you and somehow it got lost. Thank you for thinking of me. I amnot well this morning, too much sitting in tthe car, my knees hurt. So I am understanding Granny has no pheo, but Snugs does? I wish Snugs did not have one. Will Branny still have to have MRIs? You will be going with Snugs about every 3 months or so? I am still waiting on the IMS! Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Vicki:
I was posting to you and somehow it got lost. Thank you for thinking of me. I amnot well this morning, too much sitting in tthe car, my knees hurt. So I am understanding Granny has no pheo, but Snugs does? I wish Snugs did not have one. Will Branny still have to have MRIs? You will be going with Snugs about every 3 months or so? I am still waiting on the IMS! Blessings
Patti

aww I hope you get rest today and feel better Patti,
Yes Branny does not have a pheo or Cushings from the results of this urine test.
Snuggles results strongly suggest a pheo but no Cushings. But his value for the Pheo are a bit lower. (I am hoping that is due to the herbal meds)

Snugs will have another Mri in about 1 more month due to the vena cava invasion, that will make it 3 months since his last one.

For Branny I might just do an ultrasound and make sure his soft cell tumor (malignant tumor he had surgically removed) isn't growing again. But will discuss that with my vet.

I put in a call to my vet to get clarification of the two values and the reference range significance compared to the ctrl significance.

I hope you here from your IMS today. {{{{Hugs}}}} to Tipper

[Squirt's Mom]

All in all, good news, Vicki! :cool:

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am sure you know how my vet gouges me for money so before I even think about the urine test, how expensive is it please? I just checked all my email on the computer and nothing from the IMS, so it may be until Wednesday nite before I hear. I am getting ready to take Tipper to laser therapy, and I do not want to get back in the car!! Have a good day with the boys today it looks like a good one with no rain. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Seems so Leslie thank you :) I hope you are not in pain anymore I just had root canal myself last week, glad that is over with

[beaglemom3]

Vicki:
I am sure you know how my vet gouges me for money so before I even think about the urine test, how expensive is it please? I just checked all my email on the computer and nothing from the IMS, so it may be until Wednesday nite before I hear. I am getting ready to take Tipper to laser therapy, and I do not want to get back in the car!! Have a good day with the boys today it looks like a good one with no rain. Blessings
Patti

I pay a lot for vet services being NYC the prices here are outrageous but for both boys it cost be a little over 1000.00 for the urine tests, but that included the vets service too. not just the urine tests.

[beaglemom3]

I took Snuggies bp this morning and it was 111/61 MAP 79 PR 69

[molly muffin]

Well that certainly isn't high! Is he fluctuating quite a bit? If so that might be due to the tumor being a pheo.

Did Snuggs ever test positive for cushings, or just the tumor/pheo?

Brando still has the tumor, but it isn't secreting or a pheo? so you just keep an eye on it, likely an adeonma?

So much to learn with all these possibilities.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Well that certainly isn't high! Is he fluctuating quite a bit? If so that might be due to the tumor being a pheo.

Did Snuggs ever test positive for cushings, or just the tumor/pheo?

Brando still has the tumor, but it isn't secreting or a pheo? so you just keep an eye on it, likely an adeonma?

So much to learn with all these possibilities.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

No fluctuation in Snugs bp readings at all when I take them at home, they are consistently all normal to low normal and I have many many at home readings. He was only getting high readings at vet, which we believe was due to stress, but they weren't high enough to warrants meds even then.

The urine test for Snugs is negative for Cushings and positive for pheo.

Brando's right adrenal is slightly enlarged. (he tested neg for pheo and Cushings from the urine test)

Brando's MRI report on March 16th said:
the right adrenal gland is slightly enlarged .87 cm. The primary differential is Cushings (but the urine test result was negative for Cushings) though a carcinoma or early pheochromocytoma cannot be entirely excluded. (urine test was negative for a pheo). Otherwise unremarkable abdominal MRI.

[molly muffin]

Well, sounds like Brando is doing fine and Snuggs is doing very well for having a pheo, not having the BP spikes.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Thank you Sharlene
I took a video today of my boys in our yard just sniffing around

http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/Vicki-615/media/2014-05-06113603_zps6a87a08d.mp4.html

[molly muffin]

Wow, it looks so beautiful there already. You have the patio furniture stuff all out and flowers. The boys look like they are really enjoying the sunshine too. Love the videos of them. They're looking good!

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Sharlene :) I am so proud of them at their age with their internal condition....was a gorgeous day today,

[My sweet Ginger]

They just look so sweet and calm. What beautiful pups you've got there.:)
A cherry blossom in your own back yard must be such a treat every spring.;)

[Trish]

Lovely video of the boys!! Love that tree too, how gorgeous! Such a pretty area for them to sniff about!! Hope today is just as nice :)

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I don't think there is a sweeter pair of boys on the planet, cute video. I am still waiting on the IMS. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

aww thank you all so much Valerie, Trish and Patti, yes those cherry blossoms are so beautiful but OMG make such a mess when they fall.
Here is a picture from last year when the blossoms were falling https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6233450/2013-05-07%2012.27.13.jpg

My backyard becomes a sea of pink, its gorgeous but the petal stick to shoes my doggies paws and their noses! LOL and my house becomes a real cherry blossom mess lol

Oh and that's just 1 days petals we clean it daily when they start to fall.

[molly muffin]

Wow, it sure is pretty, but I can just imagine the cleanup and the stuff that comes in on the boys paws! yowser. I'd be swearing at the cherry tree by the end of spring for sure. hahahahaha
I bet the guys like sniffing all those blossoms though if they are anything like molly. She will stick her nose right into a flower if she sees on. It must be the smell as dogs don't see in color from what I understand. I'm always afraid she'll stick her nose right into a bee or wasp and get stung.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
The dogs with the blossoms reminds me of my dogs. Sometimes Elvis my parrot has fine little down feathersmthat drift out of his cage. Every time one of the dogs goes and sniffs it and it is stuck to their nose. Vicki please read what I posted on Sharlene's thread. If you see any of your vets soon, will you please ask them the likelihood of an adrenal tumor rupturing?? Thanks you,mi need your help and input on this. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

lol yup Sharlene its a pretty pink mess :) They love sniffing the petals and they stick to their noses, its funny to see them with pink petal noses. but I wipe them off quickly so they don't lick their nose and eat them I don't think those flowers are good for dogs. I did get rid of most the plants that are toxic but did not have the heart to cut down those trees. So I keep a close watch during spring..rest of the year it is not an issue.

[My sweet Ginger]

Ooooh, so pretty and could be so romantic so much so they should tape the Bachelor finale on your patio.:D:D:D

You are right about those petals could be toxic to dogs.
We have a wild peach tree right next to our deck in the back of the house and when Stella was about a year old unbeknownst to us she ate a lot of flower buds that fell on the deck. Back then she'd eat a rock if she can get her mouth to it tho not that she has changed that much since then. Those must be quite toxic because she had shooting diarrhea for the next three straight days.:eek::eek::eek:
I ended up cutting the branches off that over hung the deck and blow the flowers away with a blower as soon as I see them now.

[beaglemom3]

Ooooh, so pretty and could be so romantic so much so they should tape the Bachelor finale on your patio.:D:D:D

You are right about those petals could be toxic to dogs.
We have a wild peach tree right next to our deck in the back of the house and when Stella was about a year old unbeknownst to us she ate a lot of flower buds that fell on the deck. Back then she'd eat a rock if she can get her mouth to it tho not that she has changed that much since then. Those must be quite toxic because she had shooting diarrhea for the next three straight days.:eek::eek::eek:
I ended up cutting the branches off that over hung the deck and blow the flowers away with a blower as soon as I see them now.

LOL it does look pretty, but yes I have a gate around all the shrubs and trees, unfortunately I cant control the petals where they fall but the trees have been there since my boys were babies, so far so good.

You made me laugh about Sweet Ginger eating a rock my first beagle Cuddles actually loved rocks, OMG we always had to take one out of his mouth LOL

[beaglemom3]

Vicki:
The dogs with the blossoms reminds me of my dogs. Sometimes Elvis my parrot has fine little down feathersmthat drift out of his cage. Every time one of the dogs goes and sniffs it and it is stuck to their nose. Vicki please read what I posted on Sharlene's thread. If you see any of your vets soon, will you please ask them the likelihood of an adrenal tumor rupturing?? Thanks you,mi need your help and input on this. Blessings
Patti

I definitely will ask that question for you, it is one of my main concerns with Snuggles since his tumor as of last MRI is pressing against the vena cava. I was not thrilled either with the scary way the IMS said that to you. But I did learn to check their gums to se if they are getting enough blood /oxygen flow which if God forbid not could mean internal bleeding, make sure Tippers gums are baby pink and if pressed it turns white and turns back pink fast. If you see anything different then go to vet.

[beaglemom3]

I will be going to a new local vet for Chinese herbal meds and western herbal meds. My Appt is Wed at 12PM. He is listed on the Chinese Medicine pharmacy where I get my boys stuff from ordered only by vets.

Reason being I am very angry at the IMS at the AMC in Manhattan and feel she does not deserve to take care of my dogs anymore.

If you recall there were many mishaps in me getting a new shipment of the stasis breaker. well I did finally get it last week on Monday, but now the bottle says concentrated and directions says 1 pill two times a day for dogs 20-40 lbs. The original bottle did not say concentrate and said 1 pill 2 times a day for every 10 pounds, so I was giving them 3 pills 2 times a day. The IMS did not tell me to do anything different but I felt I needed to ask. Well I kept getting her assistants and they kept relaying the message s and the IMS answers. I practically begged them to call that pharmacy to ask and the assistant kept saying just give them 3 pills two times a day since the gram weight of the capsules are the same.

well you know me I did not I called the pharmacy and was lucky I got someone who explained to me that the gram weight of the capsule doesn't mean anything the powder in the capsule is two times stronger that the powder in the unconcentrated and if I give them the 6 pills day each it would be too much medication for them. She explained they made the concentrated for horses and big dogs so the owner does not have to give so many pills. She said give half of what they were getting 2 times a day.

I called back the IMS and ofc got another assistant and felt I should let them know this, she could harm other pets with her recommendation of dosing but ofc I did not say that, the assistant sounded very annoyed and said she told the IMS and she will check it out...well that was last week on Monday, havent heard a word from them..how dare she just ignore my questions and concerns and not care enough about my dogs to get this straightened out and let me know.

My next apt with her is June 18 for 2 one hour appts. Guess what..she left me hanging I am going to leave her hanging and not show up or cancel..She will be stuck with 2 free hours and no payment for them.
I'm so angry she cares so little for my dogs(her patients) I may sound bitchy to do this, but these are my babies..you don't mess with my babies health and well being.

[My sweet Ginger]

Lol. Some crazy stuff these pups do and no Vicki, it wasn't Ginger who'd do such crazy things. It was my youngest one Stella who is three now, the wild and crazy child.

Ginger was always so mature in her behavior and all she wanted to do was being with me in my lap or at least a part of my body has to touch hers. If I had to go away for a couple of days which were very, very seldom she'd sit on top of the couch and looking out the window and just waits for me to come home and then one of the kids would send me her picture from the back side sitting and waiting, looking pathetically lonely and I had to hurry back home. It makes me cry because she doesn't do those things anymore and I miss them terribly. I now realize that a lot of times I was taking those precious moments for granted. I wish I could get some of those moments back with her.

[My sweet Ginger]

Yeah, let her hanging. We are talking about our sweet Branny and Snuggs here. That makes me mad too.:mad:

[beaglemom3]

Aww thank you! and ooops sorry bout my error about Stella. I know exactly how you feel about Ginger, but although my boys do sleep a lot more and so deeply OMG food and the doorbell do not wake them anymore, Snuggles God bless him still gets into so much mischief LOL but less often throughout the day, he was the energizer bunny's first cousin, the energizer beagle ,when he was younger LOL

I was just in the kitchen making a sandwich and my boys came in with me, as I am preparing the sandwich Snuggles opened up the pantry door , stood on his hind legs and stole a cork trivet and proceeded to treat it like it was he best toy ever made LOL I had to bribe him with his low fat treats to get it back. But looking at his face with the trivet hanging out of his mouth just made me giggle. My little goofball.

[goldengirl88]

Go get em Vicki!! Now you know why I dislike my vet, he does stuff like that and never calls me. When you are spending all this money you would think you would get some level of respect?? Blessings
Patti

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Vicki, how very unprofessional of that IMS, they take a oath of not doing any harm to an animal and thankfully you are an exceptional advocate for your babies, I feel sorry for the other clients of that IMS and I hate to think of the undue harm she may be causing.

[beaglemom3]

I understand about the money I spend on them and I don't even have it to spend, but what got me angry was she never told me what the right dosage is and according to the pharmacy is I follow the IMS dosage I could really harm my boys, her not calling back to either confirm I was right or she was shows a complete lack of caring about the life and welfare of my boys.

[molly muffin]

Totally unacceptable! :(
You done good though!!

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Thank you Sharlene, well what do you know after a week and a half I just received a call from on of the IMS's assistants and asked if anyone had called me back yet, I said no and I am disappointed, she apologized and I was correct that I am to give them half the dosage they were getting.

This is not changing my mind about her, unless the new vet is not to my liking, then I will have to decide what to do.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
The last time Tipper went low on her pre number I called Dechra. They wanted to speak to my vet, before advising me on what to do. I called his office on a Monday and he was there. I left the message with his girl. Wednesday came and he had not called and is off until the following Monday.I stopped the Vetoryl and called back to Dechra and very honestly told them how he never does what he is supposed to and they agreed to help me. The next week I went for Tippers bp and saw him and he acted like nothing was wrong and never brought it up. Here I am not able to get an RX for anew dose of trilostane to lower her dose. Finally by Wednesday I faxed a paper to him requesting he call in several different dosages in the event I need to change and he will not call back. He finally did call the RX in, but never even asked what it was for or anything about it. He could care less about Tipper and her situation, and I know that and find it hard to go there under these circumstances, but need him for RXs and stuff. It is a sad situation because all he cares about is money. I know how you feel that she betrayed your boys, cause that is how I feel. These dogs have it hard enough without this kind of crap. Makes my blood boil!! Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I agree Patti..although this is the first time it happened with her, I could have really hurt my boys if I did not press the issue and followed her dosage blindly.. to me that's all 3 strikes in one shot.

I am going to ask the new IMS Wednesday your question.

[beaglemom3]

I am really worried about Squirt since we haven't heard anything, it is weighing heavy on my mind and in my heart. I am praying hard for good news.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Please read Leslie's post, I am heartbroken.

[molly muffin]

:(

This is another one that hurts so much.

Sharlene

[beaglemom3]

Even though I know all of you a relatively short time, your dogs, trials and tribulations with their health and how much each and every one of us love them so much, I feel the loss of Squirt in a big way. Any loss of a pet is incredibly heart wrenching, but when you follow along on their journeys with illnesses and the ups and downs, it becomes personal, as if we are losing one of our own.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I didn't think I could keep up on the forum after Buddy, and Woody's passing, but this is just crushing me. I have hugged and squeezed my baby so many times since I saw this that she is thinking I am crazy. It makes you realize the mortality of your own baby, it really can mess with your mind. Everyone on here is a friend that you get to know, and when they hurt you hurt too. It truly is like losing one of your own. Leslie is such a wonderful person, always giving,helping, and supporting. I wish with all my heart this was not happening. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I know what just what you mean Patti. I have been with a beagle group for close t 13 years now and a few of us from that group meet in a vidchat every week for years, and we have a beagle chat for an hour every Tuesday.
Last night right after I read Leslie's post about Squirt I recveied a text that one of our close beagle owner friends who just lost his beagle less than a year ago and adopted a little begle girl just a few months ago, came home and found her vomiting blood everywhere and she died a short time after he got home from work. I screamed I cried and ran to my boys and kissed them like crazy non stop for a long time.

I am so sickened and shattered about both Sweet Squirt and Sweet Lito, that I just want to leave all dog groups and rescue groups I belong too and blank out everything from my mind.

I wish too this was not happening, we are never with them long enough. It is the hardest part of being owned by a dog, is when they have to leave us ;(

[doxiesrock912]

Yeah, o think the same thing every time that I read sad posts. I hurt all over again for every pet that I've ever lost. Hugs.

[beaglemom3]

(((HUGS))) Valerie

[molly muffin]

We are a family here. We share our ups and we share our downs, that makes it hard when we have to say a final good bye. Add to that the worry that we all have each day for our own pups and it is a reminder that we don't want to think about. For some it is reminder of what they themselves have so recently gone through and it brings the pain back stronger than ever.

I believe though that together we are better than alone, that when we need someone to turn to that understands, we find that with others who are walking or have walked that path.

It is hardest on those who are left behind. Our babies who pass are no longer dealing with any health issues, they no longer feel pain, but we do, we who are here still feel it over and over and over again, so much so that sometimes it feels like it is hard to breath and yet, we continue on, for what else can we do.

There are others who need us, there are some who we do not yet know that will need us at some point in their lives.

Vicki I am so sorry that you have lost two that you know today. That must make it even harder for you.

I could name so many that we have said good bye to on the forum since I have been here and each one was so precious. It is never easy, it will never be easy to say fly free little soul.

I know in my head and heart what I am trying to say, but I don't know if it is coming out right or not. I just know, that it hurts to know that a friend's heart will be hurting more than words can ever express.
I know that it feels worse to have lost such beloved members of our family in such a short time.

Tomorrow the sun will come up and we will be strong for each other as we travel this road together. If anyone needs to talk you can PM any one of us if you need to or share on the forum here. We remain stronger together.

hugs and love
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

It came out right Sharlene, you are a wise woman and I will just say "ditto" to your post and that sometimes a little break can help keep you sane so any of you do not feel bad if you have to do that. We all do what we can when we can xxxxx

[beaglemom3]

I understand Sharlene and that is why when we do lose one I want to leave but I don't. It is just living through someone else's loss and pain is so great it makes me want to flee. But I don't. I have been through this myself with my beloved Cuddles and too many other friends babies in the past 13 years.

We all go through it each time someone goes through it. Groups like this and my other beagle groups and rescues have been a source of support, joy and and comfort throughout the years as well as the anguish and heart wrenching losses, and going through it together always helps.

[goldengirl88]

Very well said by Sharlene. This one is crippling to me, don't know if I can withstand this one. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
That was a beautiful poem. I am trying to regroup, this is devastating news to us all. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thank you Patti, I love that poem because it lets us know they are still with us, which to me is very comforting. I hope it helps Leslie feel and know her Queen Squirt is still with her and finds comfort in that soon.

[beaglemom3]

Happy Belated Birthday Valerie! I had trouble finding your thread so posted my birthday wishes to you here :)

[beaglemom3]

The pink mess is upon me, you can see Snuggies tail in the far back behind the table.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6233450/2014-05-10%2007.13.08.jpg

[beaglemom3]

Interesting new study about dogs with pheos and pheo heart related issues that say these tests and appropriate medications may help lengthen their lives.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24810909

Pathologic and Cardiovascular Characterization of Pheochromocytoma-Associated Cardiomyopathy in Dogs.

Edmondson EF1, Bright JM, Halsey CH, Ehrhart EJ.


Abstract

Pheochromocytoma-associated catecholamine-induced cardiomyopathy is a well-known entity in man, nonhuman primates, and mice but has not been described in dogs. In this retrospective study, 9 dogs were identified with pheochromocytomas and concurrent cardiovascular pathology observed histologically (n = 6), echocardiographically (n = 4), and/or electrocardiographically (n = 5). Cardiac lesions included multifocal cardiomyocyte necrosis with contraction bands, cardiomyocyte degeneration, myocardial hemorrhage, lymphohistiocytic myocarditis, and interstitial fibrosis. Clinical procedures, including electrocardiographic and echocardiographic examinations, Doppler blood pressure measurement, and auscultation, were available for 5 dogs and consistently revealed concentric or mixed (eccentric and concentric) ventricular hypertrophy. Additional changes observed included arrhythmias, systemic hypertension, and heart murmurs. The myocardial lesions observed in this series of dogs are similar to those observed in humans with pheochromocytoma-associated catecholamine-induced cardiomyopathy. Since the clinical manifestations of catecholamine-induced cardiac disease are amenable to medical treatment, recognition of this cardiomyopathy has the potential to reduce morbidity and mortality in dogs with pheochromocytoma.

[molly muffin]

Yep that is a mess, but what a pretty mess it is! LOL

hugs
sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

Yes, it is a pretty mess. You could sweep them all up and give them to a bride to scatter about at a wedding!

That study is interesting, Flynn already has two of those things with hypertension and murmur although his murmur is only low grade and when the IMS listened to it last week there had been no deterioration. Phew he is on meds so that is good to hear that helps long term. Thanks for posting it Vicki. :)

[Woodydog]

I have to take these pink blossoms off my car every morning as there is an cherry blossom tree next to my drive, they get everywhere :D

[beaglemom3]

LOL yup Sharlene....
LOL Trish..only probably is the bride would be wearing the pink mess, they tend to stick :)

You're welcome Trish, I am so glad Flynn's murmur is low grade and there has been no deterioration. That was the first new study I found on PubMed pertaining to dogs and pheo's in months, I check all the time.

I am going to show my local vet this abstract and have him redo an echo and EKG on Snuggles before the MRI next month I don't think he has a murmur but Brando has one for years now.

[beaglemom3]

I have to take these pink blossoms off my car every morning as there is an cherry blossom tree next to my drive, they get everywhere :D

haha I bet they do, hubby is out back now vacuuming them up,, we have a blower that also vacuums and mulches. But tomorrow there will be just as much *sigh* lol I really cant complain those blossoms are so beautiful before they start falling

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Does Brando show any outward signs of his heart murmur? Tipper is having a time with her trachea. She had to sneeze last nite and couldn't and keep trying and was really in a panic about it. These dogs cannot sneeze normally. She is also making congested sounds I assume from allergies. I hope your boys give you a Happy Mothers Day Kiss as you deserve it. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Hi Patti, Happy's Mother Day to you too! As far as Branny goes my vet never said he was congested BUT when we went to the IMS the integrated vet who prescribes the Chinese Herbal meds she said he was congested and prescribed something called 4 Marvels for him
Here's a link to the entire article:

http://pathwithpaws.com/blog/2011/06/17/si-miao-san-slowing-down-cancer-and-inflammation/

It says its good for Cushings in Dogs (at that time we thought he might have Cushings per the MRI Report)
This is a small part of the article:

Si Miao San – slowing down cancer and inflammation


Si Miao San or Four Marvels Powder is truly one of the workhorses of Chinese medicine. It is probably the most common formula I use. You see, Si Miao San is very good at treating inflammation and our animal companions have a lot of inflammatory disorders. This is my top formula for inflammatory bowel disease, allergic dermatitis, Cushings disease, and diabetes.
For more information on Cushings disease see my article Managing Cushings Disease in Dogs Holistically.

In Chinese medicine it treats damp heat and is a simple yet powerful little formula of four ingredients.
» Huang Bai (phellodendron bark)
» Yi Yi Ren (coix seed)
» Cang Zhu (atractylodes rhizome)
» Huai Niu Xi (achyranthes root)

These ingredients are highly anti-inflammatory and often this formula can take the place of prednisone for inflammatory disorders but without the side effects

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Thank you, I am going to check into this. We are all taking a rest as Tipper got me up at 500am and gave me my Mother's Day kiss!! Hope you have a good day with the boys. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

You're welcome Patti, I have the appointment with the new holistic vet Wednesday and I made an appointment for Monday for both of my boys to get another echocardiogram and ekg, they are due for one plus the abstract I posted about pheos and cardio issues reminded me.

[beaglemom3]

Hi everyone.
I went to that new holsitc vet last week and was not impressed, that is why I didn't post about the visit. I will be sticking with the integrated vet in Manhattan, last week they called and apologized to me and said I was right about the concentrated formula, but more reason than this I will stay with her....

I just got back from my local vet, both boys were to have an echocardiogram and ekg. But my vet told the sonographer do Snuggles adrenal gland and cavity with all those organs, liver, kidney etc etc and do same for Brando the cavity where he had the tumor and scan his liver kidneys etc etc.

Snuggles adrenal gland tumor 3 months ago on the ultrasound measured 3.5, but the MRI done a week or two later showed 3.2 with contrast. For some reason the US showed it larger, ready for this.....

Todays US showed Snuggles tumor 2.7 cm. Both my vet and Sonographer were surprised, so they took Snuggles in the back again to get another sonogram of his adrenal gland to make sure they get it lit up well, he is in a good position.. etc etc because they were surprised at the first measurement and my vet wants to try and avoid another MRI if possible.........., same result 2.7 cm :), it did show a very mild invasion of the vena cava but my vet said this is all good news.

Both echos were fine nothing we didn't already know about Branny's slight valve leak and murmur it did not get any worse.
Snugs heart is good, bp good except his heart rate is low 40. He wants me to tlak to both herbalists and tell them about it and see what they say, if it is due to the Chinese Herbs or western herbs and to let him know what they say.

I will have the written reports in a few days and post them.

Patti I did not forget about your question but didn't bother asking the new vet I saw last week, he was a ncie guy but I don't think to knowledgeable and I knew I would see my vet today. My vet said he does not think an adrenal gland tumor can rupture by its self, if it pushes into something else like a vein, blood vessel etc and depending how much it is invading it then there is a chance.

I hope all is well with everyone their babies and Leslie not a day goes by I don't think of you and your Queen Squirt. Sending you lots of love and hugs.

[Trish]

That's great news Vicki! Way to go to the beagle boys!! xx

[beaglemom3]

Thanks so much! Trish, I am so thrilled.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
So happy for you and the boys!! Way to go boys!!! They are just too cute together. I am glad you asked the Dr. about the rupture. I did read somewhere one time, that on one of the adrenals a tumor can be closer to the back and hit against something, but can't remember where I read it to go back and look! You read so much information it is too hard to bookmark and track all you have read . I am praying this tumor has no changes on the next ultra sound, as I will be hard pressed as to what I should do. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Patti, have you given thought to any herbal meds to try and stop Tippers tumor from growing and possibly shrink it? It appears the ones I am giving my boys are having that kind of an effect, which I am so thrilled about and I pray the herbal meds continue to keep my boys, symptom free and with me as long as possible.

When I get the written report I will send it to the IMS who saw Snuggles, the specialist in endocrinology (not the integrated Vet which I will send a copy to as well)and I will ask her for you about a tumor in an adrenal gland rupturing I would think she would have better knowledge of that than my local vet.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
If she has any growth the next time on her ultra sound I will certainly do it as long as it is safe for her. Have you found out if it could have caused the low heart rate? That would be a concern for me as Tipper has a heart murmur. I will look back on your thread to see the exact herbs and talk to the vet tomorrow. Can my regular vet order them? If so please tell me the cost ahead of time so her does not double or triple the price knowing I am desperate to stop this tumor growth as that is what he does, he is an opportunist. Thank you for all the help you have constantly given me, while in the midst of your own problems. I appreciate it with all my heart. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I am waiting for an email back from the Western herbalist about their extracts and the low HR and will call the integrated vet today to ask.

Brando has a heart murmur too but ofc you need to make sure it is safe for Tipper. The Chinese herbal meds are only dispensed from a pharmacy with a script by a licensed vet in Chinese herbal meds.

The other herbs I get from a western herbalist you can email them and tell them the issues and they will make up a mixture that suits Tippers needs and if you agree to what they propose then you pay them directly and they ship it to you.
With herbal meds it is important to use a reputable companies with high quality standards.

If you want to see who in your area can prescribe Chinese herbal meds for Tipper you can go to this site www.tcvmherbal.com and where it says
Find a TCVM Practitioner in your area for prescription put in your zip code and it will list what vets in your area are qualified

so you don't need to search:

Snuggles-Western Herbal Extracts

Special Adrenal Cancer Mix (1).
Blue Flag, Kelp, St. Mary's Thistle, Fennel, Withania, Buchu, Hawthorn as well as the Bach Flower Remedies; Olive, RR, Scleranthus Walnut, Wild Oat.

Special Adrenal Cancer Mix (2)-I have not given Snugs this yet I feel he is getting enough atm. This is a very strong anti cancer mix, will use if God forbid needed.
Mistletoe, Wormwood, Rhubarb, Tumeric, Slippery Elm as well as the Bach Flower Remedies; Crab Apple, RR, Walnut.

Brando - Western Herbal Mixture
Spindle Cell Cancer Support Mix.

Ingredients; Bladderack, Comfrey, Dandelion, Parsley, Rosehips, Violet Leaves, Yarrow and Equisetum along the Bach Flower Remedies; Oak, Olive, Pine , Water Violet, Walnut and Wild Oat.

Snuggles & Brando Both-Western Herbal Mixture

Maritime Pine Bark Extract.
This is an extract from the bark of the Maritime Pine Tree (which we grow and process locally).
The Chemical eqivalent is sold in the US and elswhere and is called Pycnogenol.

Chinese Herbal Meds

Snuggles-Chinese Herbal Meds
Concentrated Stasis Breaker
Wei Qui Boster Concentrated
Denamarin -(Sam-E)

Brando-Chinese Herbal Meds
Stasis Breaker Concentrated
4 Marvels

Both take probiotic once a day in their food.

[beaglemom3]

Patti I did find these about adrenal rupture
The entire article is found here:
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Endocrinology/Cushings-disease-and-other-adrenal-gland-disorders/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/672663

Regarding adrenal necrosis: Both mitotane and trilostane have been linked with adrenal necrosis. Mitotane, as a cytotoxic drug, certainly acts by killing cells. Trilostane, however, is the only drug that has been associated with necrosis, adrenal rupture, acute bleeding, related illness and/or death. Therefore, switching from one drug to the other may not be the cause of necrosis or rupture, since this adverse reaction has been demonstrated to occur in dogs that have only received trilostane. Mitotane has not been associated with adrenal rupture.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I found one 16 miles away. I am wondering if my vet can call or did you have to go see them with the dogs? I do not want Tipper to have to go to yet another appointment she has had so much. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I had to bring my dogs and she examined them but in a different way than traditional vets do, its a simple examine they are not poked and prodded, and she asked a ton of questions about their personality and behavior, (for example do they like warm or cold places,) they look for other things than traditional vets do. she told a lot about their physical condition by their tongue and depending on your answers and their medical hisotry and what they see when they examine they prescribe a herbal med that is appropriate. But you can call and ask but I think it is best you let the integrated vet see Tipper to get the best herbal meds for her condition and personality.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Please see my post. I discussed going to the Chinese Herbalist with my vet. I was not real happy with his response although I had read about this happening in China and other countries. Had you heard about this before? I still may call and see what they say about this. Another day of thunderstorms, Tipper is struggling with this, and I am desperately working on solutions. Hope you and the boys had a good day. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I responded to your post. I am sorry Tipper is still struggling with storms, poor baby!

[molly muffin]

Hi ya Vicki! You know I could have sworn I had commented after you mentioned the decrease in tumor size but I think I dreamed I posted.
So on that note! congratulations! Glad the boys are doing well and tumor shrinking is AWESOME news. :)
The herbs certainly seem to be helping them, so that is great.
Too bad the other vet didn't really work out, but if this one will step up to the plate and be careful and work with you on the meds then it should be okay. I think you are the key more than her though as you are the one who caught the last error and so hopefully they'll be more careful in the future. I know, even once is once too many.

It is sounding pretty good for the boys right now and that is something we are all pretty darn thankful for!

huggers
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am going to get on calling that herbalist asap and find out about the Florida Pharmacy when I am done working on paperwork in my office. I will let you know what they say. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

You can call the pharmacy directly too, I might do that as well and ask where they get their herbs from

[beaglemom3]

it says this on the pharmacy site:

Dr. Xie's Jing Tang Herbal, Inc., has developed and manufactured veterinary products that can improve the health, quality and productivity of your patients since 1999. All of our herbal products are manufactured strictly in compliance with FDA cGMP regulations and based on the pharmaceutical standards. Jing Tang brand herbal products are distributed exclusively through licensed veterinarians for the best and safest care of animals.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I just called the Herbalist and they will call me back with the answers to my questions. I found another pharmacy in Tampa that most of their stuff comes from the US. The office I called asked me the amounts and mixture used of what you use. I told them I did not know. Would it be possible for them to contact the pharmacy and get your same mixture/ Would it be under you herbalist name or yours? Please look at the Tampa Florida Pharmacy also. Thank you.
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Hi ya Vicki! You know I could have sworn I had commented after you mentioned the decrease in tumor size but I think I dreamed I posted.
So on that note! congratulations! Glad the boys are doing well and tumor shrinking is AWESOME news. :)
The herbs certainly seem to be helping them, so that is great.
Too bad the other vet didn't really work out, but if this one will step up to the plate and be careful and work with you on the meds then it should be okay. I think you are the key more than her though as you are the one who caught the last error and so hopefully they'll be more careful in the future. I know, even once is once too many.

It is sounding pretty good for the boys right now and that is something we are all pretty darn thankful for!

huggers
Sharlene and molly muffin

thanks! Sharlene :)

[beaglemom3]

Vicki:
I just called the Herbalist and they will call me back with the answers to my questions. I found another pharmacy in Tampa that most of their stuff comes from the US. The office I called asked me the amounts and mixture used of what you use. I told them I did not know. Would it be possible for them to contact the pharmacy and get your same mixture/ Would it be under you herbalist name or yours? Please look at the Tampa Florida Pharmacy also. Thank you.
Patti

The Chinese herbal meds my vet prescribes is made by one Doctor, Huisheng Xie, DVM., Ph.D. and I highly doubt he will give out his formula. The doctor owns the pharmacy I believe and his Jing Tang products are patented. You are better off buying the real one than someone trying to copying it.

This is not a regular pharmacy its specially only for Chinese veterinary herbal meds, they have an institute as well. Please take a look at the link to this pharmacy.

[beaglemom3]

you can do a search for Stasis Breaker in google and read what people say about it. There is also a pdf file with a list of the main ingredients in it but it does not list them all.

I got the pdf files for you
stasis breaker
http://www.tcvmherbal.com/JTDocs/Flyers/Stasis%20Breaker.pdf

wei qi booster

http://www.tcvmherbal.com/JTDocs/Flyers/WeiQiBooster.pdf

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
So if I get the herbalist to buy this from the pharmacy I do not need the list of ingredients??? I want to clearly understand. You give the stasis breaker that is already mixed in capsules? Then the other on with the pine bark- is that another mixture? What about all the individual ingredients you gave me such as kelp, hawthorn etc are they in one of these mixtures. I am trying to discern what all I need. If they are already mixed am I giving just two different things a day? Some said their dogs got the diarrhea from this. Did your dogs get that ? I just want to be clear on what I need. Thank you
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I posted all the herbal meds my dogs get for you a few psots up ad indicated which ones are Chinese and which are not. The western Herbal extracts are from a different herbalist and western herbs are not available at the Chinese herbal vet pharmacy.

I listed the western herbal extracts and each extracts ingredients for you as well in that post.
For example:
one extract I give Snugs is
Special Adrenal Cancer Mix (1).
that extract consists of:
Blue Flag, Kelp, St. Mary's Thistle, Fennel, Withania, Buchu, Hawthorn as well as the Bach Flower Remedies; Olive, RR, Scleranthus Walnut, Wild Oat.
the western herbalist looked over Snugs medical records and decided to make a custom mixture for Snugs and that is one of the extracts they came up with
I give him 15 drops of that twice a day in his food
Yes the stasis breaker is formulated and packaged at that TCVM pharmacy and the ones I have are in capsule form.

Neither of my dogs got any reaction to any of the herbal mixtures, western or Chinese, but the IMS and the western herbalist had me start them on them slowly and build up to their full dosage.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
The herbalist just called me and said that my vet should do a consult with Dr. Shay and that he is able to order from them?? She said she would feel better about my vet doing this as he has seen Tipper all these years and knows more of what is going on with her. Back to square one! Blessings.
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I don't understand, who is Dr Shay? and who can order? and who is she? LOL sorry I am not following this.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki;
The herbalist I called to see Tipper said there is a Dr. Shay, I guess she has talked to, where you buy your herbs. She told me that any vet can order them where you got yours, they do not have to be an herbalist. She said for my vet to do a consult with this Dr. Shay who must work at this herbal business and this Dr. Could recommend to my vet what should be used. Sorry if I was seeming unclear, I guess maybe Dr Shay does the ordering so he is the herbalist, and my vet is not really doing the ordering it is done for him?? I am new to all this, sorry if I am not knowing how it all works. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Vicki;
The herbalist I called to see Tipper said there is a Dr. Shay, I guess she has talked to, where you buy your herbs. She told me that any vet can order them where you got yours, they do not have to be an herbalist. She said for my vet to do a consult with this Dr. Shay who must work at this herbal business and this Dr. Could recommend to my vet what should be used. Sorry if I was seeming unclear, I guess maybe Dr Shay does the ordering so he is the herbalist, and my vet is not really doing the ordering it is done for him?? I am new to all this, sorry if I am not knowing how it all works. Blessings
Patti

Ahh okay I did not know that my IMS just ordered it for me. Hmm on their site it says only licensed in Chinese Herbal Meds, but that's good any vet can order from them. Wel what you can do it print or email the facts about that vet pahramcy and let him read about it, he might change his mind..this page about their quality

https://www.tcvmherbal.com/quality.asp
and this their quality procedure (it addresses his concerns about lead etc)
https://www.tcvmherbal.com/qualitycontrolprocedure.asp

and this page
https://www.tcvmherbal.com/

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I will see him on Wednesday so I will print the information out and give it to him. I know he will fight me on this, nothing is ever easy with him. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I hope it helps, that pharmacy is well known and has an excellent reputation. At the very least I hope he does his homework on it before giving you an answer. Fingers, toes and paws crossed!

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Hopefully I can convince him, if he is in a good mood! Doggies barking everywhere as they are having a garage sale here today. I have to keep Toby from the windows he is the worst offender, then he gets Tipper going and it sounds like a kennel! Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Maybe I can bribe him with some of the candy I made that he likes so well!! Have a good weekend with the boys. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

LOL I hope so Patti Have a great holiday weekend!

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Just thinking of you and the boys and hoping you are all enjoying this nice weather. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Hi Patti, yes I have been spending a lot of time with my boys, inside and outside. Today their grandpa (my dad) is coming over and I am BBQing a turkey breast, grilling corn on cob, grilling red peppers plus we will have some side dishes, not sure what yet.

I got my boys written report on Thursday, I have not posted it yet because there is a couple of things concerning me and I want to talk to my vet first before I post them so I have a better understanding before I get sick with worry. I put in a call to him Friday but he may have gone away for the weekend. I will try to get a hold of him today or tomorrow.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am so sorry you found some troubling things on the reports. I pray it is turns out to be nothing. This has been such a rollercoaster ride for you and the boys, sort of like Tipper and I. I live inside my little bubble for a while and pretend things are ok, when in reality they aren't. I have to have some way to escape this sometimes or I will go nuts. You start feeling ok and then the second shoe hits the floor! You have been thru so much, I hope you can reach the Dr. to maybe put your mind at ease. Since it is officially a holiday, don't know if that is a possibility. All that food sound delish hope you and your dad have a good dinner, and the boys have some fun with grandpa. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Patti me too! Something to do with his kidneys and spleen. But some times my vet says its not to worry about when I read things on the report, I am hoping this is one of the times, he did not go over the results with me yet since we both got the written report. He is not in today so I will make sure I get to speak to him tomorrow.

I hope you and Tipper have a wonderful day!

[beaglemom3]

I want to buy bug netting for their outside pen, when we eat I don't want to bring them inside they are beagles and will steal all our food lol are food obsessed. so I put them in a big exercise pen while we eat so they can be near us just not got into any trouble lol I searched all my wholesalers and strange none offer that. I guess I will look on amazon for that.

I am scared to death of them getting bitten by a bee or wasp. My first beagle Cuddles got bitten by a bee and had a life threatening reaction to it but I got him to the vet in time thank God, but I will never forget that.

It is one of those times where you so regret what you di dand wish to take it back and beg for forgiveness.

I was tutoring at the time and Cuds had to go potty so I let him out and brought back in and he was on the steps (my house is a duplex) crying I kept telling him to hush because I wa sin the middle of a lesson and he wouldn't so I raised my voice louder Cuddles NO! well thank God I went to him his face was blown up like a balloon. I did not know he got bitten. when I think of this I feel so horrible for yelling at him to be quiet when he was telling me MOM I need your help.

I wish I could erase what I did or erase it from my memory.

[molly muffin]

That is so scary what happened to Cuddles but there is no way you could have predicted that is what happened. You got him to the vet, you saved his life and that I think over rides everything in the long run.

Hope you can find some netting for the top of the pet area!

Hope the vet is able to put some perspective on the report that is worrying. I know those reports can be doozies when you get them.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

thanks so much Sharlene, thank God yes he was okay after getting treated or I don't think I could have lived with myself. I did see netting on amazon and its not expensive. I looked before my dad came but then had to start grilling and preparing so I will look again now and order some.

Me too, about the vet I should know tomorrow them I will post the results with explanations of the findings. But love reading Snugs tumor is 2.7 cm, makes me want to jump for joy. When we discovered it back in Oct 2013 it was 2.5 cm so almost back to where it was when we found it.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Hope you get to talk with the vet today and get the report explained. How was the BBQ? Hope you had a great time and your father enjoyed himself. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Any news from the vet Vicki?

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

I was thinking the very same thing Sharlene!

[beaglemom3]

Hi Gals yup he said nothing to be concerned about but we will do a urine analysis and culture on Snugs to make he does not have an infection going on.

Also I asked him to check with the sonographer because of 1 word lol he must think I am nuts. She said further invasion of the vena cava, now last US showed no invasion but the MRI did so I want him to get clarification on the word FURTHER, if the tumor is smaller I do not see how there can be further invasion.

here is their report
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6233450/myboysUS.pdf
My vet said on US reports they put a lot of things in comments that my boys comments don't alarm him.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Glad you got your info and nothing to worry about. My vet was not there this morning so I have to wait until her appointment Wednesday to go over this stuff with him. He is so hard to deal with. I am watching Tipper on high alert as a storm is moving in!
Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Any more news on that word that was bothering you? Hope it is all straightened out. Blessings
Patti

[Iraklis]

Any clarifications yet by the vet?

[beaglemom3]

if you both are referring to further invasion..nope he said might be next week he thinks the sonographer is on vacation this week.

I will call Monday or Tuesday if I haven't heard from him. But how could it be further invasion if it is smaller, confusing.

Thanks for asking Iraklis and Patti

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Yep that's what we are referring to. I hope you and the boys are well. The weather is cool now and so much better for Tipper. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Yes Patti gorgeous day here today.
I emailed him this morning and he said:

It is less ominous than she wrote. There is no significant change from the previous study and she was using the MRI provided as a starting point.

So I am glad about that :) but I did ask him this:
Ah Okay I am glad. Thank you! But I would think if the tumor gets smaller would the invasion would become less?

and his response was:
I doubt it would Uninvade the area

that doesn't make me happy but maybe if it is just mildly invading it as the reports say and the tumor doesn't get any bigger at best it keeps getting smaller, maybe that will be okay, I don't know, but I hope so.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I guess all we have left is to look at the silver lining in what we can. I hope no more troubles as you have really had your share. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I agree and the silver lining so far is his tumor got smaller which I am thrilled about and it is not invading anymore than it was, which is great....

[molly muffin]

Yea glad to hear no further invasion. Maybe the shape stays the same but the diameters might shrink? I really don't know, but that is the only way I'd think it could shrink and still be invading.

It's all a learning curve isn't it :)

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

Hi Vicki

Had the boys eaten before their scans? Sounds like it with all that food in their tummies!

What has happened about the bradycardia for Snugs?

Good to hear it has shrunk! Unfortunately with Flynn's pheo the size of the tumour and his was a bit smaller than Snugs at 1x1.5cm it still had a 1cm invasion into the vena cava. She is not clear where the vascular invasion is in this report, there are smaller vessels next to the adrenal, be good if the invasion was just in that area and not vena cava.

xx

[goldengirl88]

Hi Vicki:
Thinking of you and the boys. Hope you are going to have a good weekend. It is supposed to get warm here today so Tipper has already walked. I cannot wait until Tuesday to discuss these herbs with my vet. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Gals, good point! Trish I don't know if an US can tell which vessel but I will definitely ask.

As far as his low bp I did some detective work, the last thing I added was the wi qui booster pill 2 times a days, so I cut that out to 1 pill at night and his pulse has been good, in 60's 70's this morning was 90 but he was licking his foot and then my hand while taking his bp lol His bp this morning was 139/53 HR 90 usually his bp and HR are a bit lower but he's asleep when I take it but today he woke up when I put the cuff on him and started licking his foot and my hand lol

They ate dinner at 6 PM the night before and had no breakfast, so not sure why their tummies were full unless they did not poop enough that morning before the US was taken at 9 AM

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Hoping you and the boys are having good weather to enjoy outside. it is cool this morning, but going to heat up. We are expecting storms from Monday to Thursday, I don't think Tipper can handle it. Blessings
Patti

[Trish]

They ate dinner at 6 PM the night before and had no breakfast, so not sure why their tummies were full unless they did not poop enough that morning before the US was taken at 9 AM

Hmmm well that is weird then, wonder why she saw all that food in there? Might be another to add to your list of questions. I have read that food can stay in a dogs stomach before passing into the small bowel for up to 8 hrs though. Sounds like it was 13hr between eating and their scans. Glad the BP and HR are OK!!

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Just wondering what the boys have been up to. I hope all is well with all of you. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I agree Trish I haven't gotten to vet this week like I thought..was bringing in a urine sample of Snugs, I came down with a nasty stomach bug..was not fun but I am good today,
Thanks for thinking of us Patti, my boys are doing well thank God.
WE see the IMS in Manhattan on the 23rd so she can check them and see if she wants to change any Chinese herbal meds.

Patti I will catch up on your thread now I hope you got to speak to your vest about the meds.

Hope everyone is doing well HUGS to all the furbabies.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Vicki:
No the vet would not entertain the idea of discussing the herbs, he said wait till next week! He is quite full of himself. I hope the boys are well and enjoying the nice weather today, unless you go the storms that missed us. I did however get the valium. So I will see how Tipper does on it. Blessings
patti

[beaglemom3]

he probably needs time to read up on it LOL most regular vets do not know much about them.

I hope the valium helps sweet Tipper. Paws n fingers crossed!

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
God Bless you for trying to help my girl. I will look at that blanket. The kennel is from the UK. They never returned my email inquiring about it. It is very cool here in the 50s and no rain thank God! Blessings
Patti. I just found it look on YouTube for soundproof kennel it is orange in color.

[beaglemom3]

You're welcome I will post the link when I'm back on pc. This place shows to use the sound proof blanket for bird cages dog kennels etc. it's probably a lot cheaper than the kennel from uk. I saw it and the uk kennel you tube

[molly muffin]

Yikes sorry you got the nasty tummy bug, but glad you are recovering now.

Hope you are enjoying some nice weather with the boys. Did you ever find screening to put over their area in the yard?

Good find for the sound proofing option for tipper!

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Hi Vicki:
So sorry to hear you got a bug. I hope you are feeling better soon. We have cool weather here the morning and the 40s last nite. Tipper loves the cooler weather. Blessings
patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Gals just checkimg in.I am having a very rough season with my inner ear disease due to the high pollen count, I a, dizzy a lot and lose my hearing in my bad ear and my balance is bad trying very hard to ward off any vertigo attacks. I won't be posting much until the pollen count and my inner ear issues calm down. Just wanted to check in to let you all know I am okay. My boys are doing well considering and we go to the IMS in Manhattan on June 23. Hugs to your babies hope all is well with everyone. I will post and catch up on threads when I can without it making my symptoms worse.

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Vicki,

I'm sorry to read that you're not feeling well, the pollen count is very high which can make it so miserable. Hoping the pollen count goes down and you are feeling much better soon.

Hugs, Lori

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am so sorry to hear you are not well, please take care and don't worry about us we will all be here when you are better. This could be part of Tipper's problem too, the high pollen count. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Vicki, thanks for letting us know what is going on. I'm sorry this cruddy thing is back again with the high pollen count. :( Good to know the boys are doing okay, you just have to take care of yourself too!!

We'll see you when you are feeling better and we'll all have a good ole catch up day. :)

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Thank you everyone, pollen count has been moderate last few days so I am feeling better and my ENT told me to raise the dose of meds he gave me to help stop the vertigo attacks. He said allergies are a major trigger for Menieres. So I have been feeling better lately.
Sunday was my birthday and fathers day so I throw a party to celebrate both. I catered in food so I wouldn't have too much work, but it was enough to exhaust me, but we all had a great time and so did my boys! They got tons of attention and my nephews took turn walking them which they loved.

I was finally able to get to the vet for Snugs urine analysis and culture. Been feeling too dizzy and off balance to go when I wanted to. But the urine analysis came back negative YAY and just waiting on the culture results which hopefully will be in this week.

So far Thank God they are both doing well, outwardly. Next week we go to the AMC in Manhattan to see the Integrated Medical Vet. We were supposed to go Wednesday but my husband got a call from his dentist he had an opening to do his implant so we changed the boys apt to the 23rd.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Vicki:
I am so glad to hear that you are feeling better. I knew that about the allergies but never thought of Tipper and her Vestibular disease. I wonder if the allergies could trigger an episode of that? She had two episode in the last month and she was having that goop in her eyes etc. and that swallowing all the time. After eliminating the antibiotic she is no different so it must be allergies. I wonder if there is a connection to these episodes, which could help Meg and Abby. I will have to research it. Glad you had a nice fathers day and belated happy birthday Vicki!! Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I know it triggers attacks for me, so may do the same for sweet Tipper.
Thank you for the birthday wishes :)

I just got a call from the vet, and the preliminary report of Snuggies urine culture shows a bacteria infection but he wants to wait for the final so he can see what antibiotic is best to treat it.

I will be bringing both boys tomorrow to pick up the antibiotics because my vet has a groomer in his hospital who I trust and both boys will be getting bathed and groomed (they hate this so much! :( )but they need one badly. I love how they smell afterward the perfume lasts for weeks.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Those boys sure deserve to be pampered, and to smell good for their mom!! I am so happy you are better, that is an awful disease. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

aww thanks Patti, well some updates here. I received the final report on Snugs urine culture and it is a bacteria that no oral antibiotics can cure :( So we have to bring him in 5 consecutive days for an injection of gentamycin.
Hopefully that will get rid of it but these injectable antibiotics are hard on the kidneys so we have to keep an eye on this.

Nothing comes easy with our babies HUH? so no bathes this week. I am starting the injections next Tuesday. My boys vet is gone for next 4 days and Monday I have an hour dental apt scheduled and then off to Manhattan to the integrated vet specialist. I may be able to sneak the injection in on Monday between the dentist and the IMS.

Friday I get my results of the US of my lymph nodes on my neck, it was a recheck due to them being slightly enlarged when my salivary glands were infected, I am so hoping it comes back normal and no need to biopsies.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki;
You have had such a bad time lately I pray you are ok and that there is nothing with the lymph nodes. I guess you are getting all this rain too. Do those boys wear rain coats?? They are just too cute. Yikes where did that kind of bacteria come form that you cannot kill with pills? What the heck is the name of that stuff I have to look it up! Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Eeek some of these infections are totally resistant these days. Is that what they are thinking Snuggs has? I remember Barbara's Trixie had a dickins of an intestinal infection that was hard to get rid of and a couple more have had tough infections too.
Rough though having to take him in all the time :( That is bothersome in between all the other appointments going on. *sigh* Nope, nothing is easy

I am very hopeful that your lympth nodes will be fine now as long as the saliva gland infection is cleared up. It's pretty normal for them to swell at the first sign of infection. Well nothing else is acceptable right :)

Hang in there. It Has to get better soon
hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I started looking up injectable antibiotics as they want to give Tipper one. When you mentioned they can affect their kidneys, I needed to check it out. Please read my post even though I know you are not getting Cerenia please read about it. I am insisting Tipper not get an antibiotic shot after reading this it really scared me. Google injectable antibiotic affecting kidneys. It was down right scary. I am so glad you mentioned about that. See what a vet even said about it. I wonder if my vet uses it? I will take the good old fashioned pills! Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I mis typed the drug it is covenia.

[beaglemom3]

Vicki;
You have had such a bad time lately I pray you are ok and that there is nothing with the lymph nodes. I guess you are getting all this rain too. Do those boys wear rain coats?? They are just too cute. Yikes where did that kind of bacteria come form that you cannot kill with pills? What the heck is the name of that stuff I have to look it up! Blessings
Patti

Hi Patti,
Thank you for your prayers! we had sunny very hot days until today dark gloomy and a little rainy. The bacteria is called Pseudomonas or something like that and then another long word after it, he is going to show me the results when I come in.

I may ask the Integrated vet when we see her on Monday if we can give him something from Chinese herbal meds to clear it up instead of the injectable, we are to start the shot son Tuesday, the day after we see her.

[beaglemom3]

Eeek some of these infections are totally resistant these days. Is that what they are thinking Snuggs has? I remember Barbara's Trixie had a dickins of an intestinal infection that was hard to get rid of and a couple more have had tough infections too.
Rough though having to take him in all the time :( That is bothersome in between all the other appointments going on. *sigh* Nope, nothing is easy

I am very hopeful that your lympth nodes will be fine now as long as the saliva gland infection is cleared up. It's pretty normal for them to swell at the first sign of infection. Well nothing else is acceptable right :)


Hang in there. It Has to get better soon
hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

Thanks Molly! you made me feel better about my results. Yes it will be difficult especially I do not drive due to my inner ear issues and will have to depend on someone to take us everyday.

[beaglemom3]

Vicki:
I started looking up injectable antibiotics as they want to give Tipper one. When you mentioned they can affect their kidneys, I needed to check it out. Please read my post even though I know you are not getting Cerenia please read about it. I am insisting Tipper not get an antibiotic shot after reading this it really scared me. Google injectable antibiotic affecting kidneys. It was down right scary. I am so glad you mentioned about that. See what a vet even said about it. I wonder if my vet uses it? I will take the good old fashioned pills! Blessings
Patti

Hi Patti please link me to the posts you refer too it is easier for me this way I cant find it in your thread

[goldengirl88]

Hi Vicki;
Hope all is ok with you and the boys. All you have to do is google Covena antibiotic dangerous and so many sites will come up, too many to link you to. There is also a Facebook page some has about it according to one of these sites. I just called my vets office and they told me that is what they use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am so glad you brought up about the antibiotics and made me look for injected ones . He could have given this to my Tipper after her operation he said she would get one!!! Also the pseudomonas , my parrot that is no longer here had to be given daily injections of this by me. It was horrible, I think she had 40 some I would cry when I knew it was time to do it as it hurt her in her breast badly even though the needle was smaller. I used to have to do it every morning. It was so hard I can't even think about it. The vet told me to make sure she did not bite me as this is a bad bacteria. Just wonder how he got it??Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Hi Patti I thought you said read your post, so I was looking for one. My vet is not using that drug, but all the injectibles sound lousy. I been doing searches it seems oral cipro is getting the same results even though on the sensitivity report from his culture it says resistant. These are recent studies. Heres an article though:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/226748-treatment

•Urinary tract infections[5] ◦Parenteral aminoglycosides may remain the antibiotics of choice, although quinolones are often used.
◦Tobramycin is preferred to gentamicin in patients with renal dysfunction.
◦UTI can be treated with a single agent, except in cases of bacteremia and upper tract infections with abscess formation.
◦Alternative antibiotics include antipseudomonal penicillins and cephalosporins, carbapenems (eg, imipenem, meropenem), and aztreonam. Ciprofloxacin continues to be the preferred oral agent. ◦Duration of therapy is 3-5 days for uncomplicated infections limited to the bladder; 7-10 days for complicated infections, especially with indwelling catheters; 10 days for urosepsis; and 2-3 weeks for pyelonephritis. Longer duration of treatment is necessary for those patients with perinephric or intrarenal abscesses.

Monday when I take my boys the IMS in Manhattan I am going to ask her if there is anything herbal wise to help fight this terrible bacterial infections he has.

My US came back good one lymph node has not enlarged and is too small to biopsy so that's great, its 9 mm and they biopsy when it reaches 20 mm, the fact it hasn't grown is a good thing. My other side is all clear, gone.

I took a breathing test and there is a slight obstruction so in 3 months they redo it with an inhaler to see if it is any difference she then examined me, my nose is congested but she said everything seems to be good.

I am really worried about Snugs infection and the drugs to try and get rid of it, I pray to God this does not cause him to get real sick and possibly lose him from the infection or the drugs. After all we have been through and keeping his pheo under control so far I am angry so angry this happened!

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I don't blame you. You have been thru so much. I am just glad you mentioned the antibiotic injection, as Tipper may have gotten that horrible Covenia as I called and my vet uses it!!! Even vets were writing about how they would not use it. I am just wondering how your baby picked this bacteria up? It is so unfair your dogs have really had a lot to deal with. I pray your baby gets well. It is good to hear you got a good report. You have good vets so I am hopeful they will get rid of that nasty stuff. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I am glad I mentioned it for Tippers sake and everyone's sake but why were they going to give Tipper that?

My vet wants to use gentamycin I am not sure why he chose that one. There is one injectable that if someone is pregnant it can be used. when I see my vet Tuesday I am going to ask why he chose gentamycin over the others. He did wan me all of them can have serious side effects. I am hoping the IMS can give me something that will work on the infection so I don't need an injectable, just an oral antibiotic.

I will scan Snugs report so you all can see the diagnosis and sensitivities.

We are not sure how he got it but it happens to people too when their immune system is weakened, Snugs is a poop eater, ofc we try and get it but its hard many times. The vet always said it would not harm him, but maybe he ate some poop and licked his penis after, I don't know. I am so sad, things were going along so nicely for a while. I am so tired and drained from everything, but I will fight for them to stay alive and well no matter what it takes.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
When I was going over Tipper's procedure at the vets this week , he said he said he would give her an antibiotic shot after the procedure. Then you mention they are hard on the kidneys and that got my mind going since Cushings and Vetoryl are already stressing the kidneys I decided to research it. I came upon all these warnings for Covenia and it scared the crap out of me. I thought if this is hard on the kidneys then why not use oral. Tipper does have a sensitive stomach, but was just on one to see if she had a sinus infection and she did fine on it. After learning my vet uses Covenia I want it on all my animals charts they are not to have it ever. I will go over this again right before Tipper operation so they hear me loud and clear as I would just die after all this work of keeping her as healthy as possible and they gave her this and something happened. If you read about it, it stays in there system for eternity and some of the dogs could not be saved due to that. So if you never mentioned this and I didn't know it that could have been my Tipper's fate!!! It is so good when you have info on something no matter how small to tell everyone as you never know who it may help. You could have saved my Tipper from posting that information on the antibiotic shots!!! I sure hope you can get something else to use, but from all I read it needs some strong antibiotics. One time Tipper when she was small had a reoccurring earache and they could not knock it out so they used Cipro. It knocked it out alright and her stomach too- she has had acid reflux ever since then. It gets really tiring having to check every little thing, but this is a good example of why to continue to do so. Blessings
patti

[molly muffin]

Oh Vicki, I'm so sorry Snuggs got an infection. It likely is just his immune system is compromised, even walking somewhere and then licking his paws might have done it. Who knows. Or a vet office even, it is really impossible to say for sure.

Glad to hear that one lympth node is completely good and the other isn't that large Might decrease too with infection completely gone and time . It really is where everything ends up it seems, so that is good news. If congested one area, then it is possible to be congested in another area too, so again, lets wait and see how that goes in a few months. You might be all better, if you can get past allergy season and keep infections at bay.

Ask you doctor about some supplements to boost your immune system in the mean time.

We'll get you and Snuggs straightend out yet :)

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

Hi Vicki

I would like to put your mind at rest using injectable antibiotics. Some work a lot better that way, gentamicin being one of them. We use it a LOT in urology and very rarely see any problems with it. Renal function should be checked though if that is a concern when using it for extended periods. Pseudomonas is a tricky bug and not many antibiotics work for it anymore but both gent and cipro often do depending on sensitivities and I hope that is what your vet is basing his treatment recommendations on. Some bacteria will colonise a bladder, ie it will show up on testing but not be causing any symptomatic problems in the patient. In that case in human medicine anyway, we do not treat it. We will only use antibiotics if the patient has symptoms making them unwell.

My vet Mike did a speech at an infection control study day a while back, he said the same thing happens in the veterinary world and the indiscriminate use of antibiotics is leading us down a dangerous path. Some say there may come a day in the next 50 years or so when they will stop working, that is very frightening. So basically, it is bad medicine if you give your patient/dog antibiotics without a proven culture. The exceptions being that if your dog is very unwell with infection, only then should an antibiotic be started without a culture and in that instance you should always check the sensitivities and change treatment when the results come in.

Be careful googling some of these thing too, it is very easy to find the bad stories about drugs, rarely to you read about how good they went! Google any antibiotic whether oral, IV or IM and you will find these articles of doom and gloom about a bad reaction a dog had. But to put a caution on a whole class of medication because of it does not have a basis in fact. For example, if you google Vetoryl I am sure there are a lot of reports along the lines of "Vetoryl killed my dog"! But we all know that is not true when the drug is used correctly with proper veterinary advice. It can in fact be a lifesaver just the same as injectable antibiotics can be!!

I am sure your vet is putting a lot of thought into the treatment options for Snugs, I have a lot of faith in my vet as you seem to in yours which is great to see. My dog has had injectable antibiotics as have my cats. It worked! Just as I am sure it will with Snugs if that is the way to go.

xxx

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am a very cautious person, and Tipper's safety is paramount to me, so I regard all warnings where she is concerned ,especially when a vet says he will never use this product. Everyone has to pick and choose what they find factual, and a practicing DVM for 30 years I find very credible as he does use these products regularly on animals. I choose not to look for trouble, but avoid it if at all possible. When I see something that concerns me I will continue to let others know so they can research it themselves, and form their own opinions. Your vets have been great and know what it takes to get rid of this bacteria, and since it was not the product in question I would just ask him if he has any concerns about the one you are using, or had any patients with problems from it. I try to be considerate of others and you are too in trying to share information, and I am glad you posted about this or like I said I would not have known. That being said you have to pick and choose what applies to you and your doggies. I wish there was something natural to help Snugs, but found nothing like that when looking. I know from my bird you have to get this under control as she was really sick from it. Does Snugs act like he is not feeling well? My bird's was more in the respiratory tract so maybe that is why she got so bad, cause they have hollow bones with air going thru them and it spread everywhere. I don't know how she got it either, but she had cancer and her immune system was compromised. You will take care of this just like you did all the other things, I know you are a fighter and will go to the nth degree to help Snugs. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am assuming you are getting this rain too? It is real dark and dreary here. Good day to find something inside that needs done! Do either of your boys have any problem with the storms? I sure hope not. I am not medicating Tipper today as I don't want to keep giving her that drug, and I don't think this storm is to be all day. She slept in the closet again. I don't know what she would do if I shut the door to it, but I am not going to try it. If she feels safe in there so be it. I just miss her sleeping up against me. Maybe your alternative medicine specialist may have some ideas for Snugs?? Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Trish you eased my mind a bit and I will speak to my local vet Tuesday to get all my questions answered before Snugs gets his shots, I know we have to get rid of this infection, it is a nasty one and with his pancreatitis and pheo I just hope and pray we can take care of the infection w/o doing him any harm.

Patti I certainly understand your concern about these injectables, my vet at his own admission was not happy that we need to use one of them especially in an very senior dog with major medical issues. But he said Snugs kidneys are in good shape and he said we need to get rid of this infection and I agree. I tried scanning the 3 page report but my scanner decided to be a PITA and is not working right I am going to try again now, so you all can look over the sensitivity results. We kinda have no choice in this situation :(

No storms here its been sunny and warm but nope my boys have no reaction to storms whatsoever, they could care less, which I am grateful for. I will post tomorrow after seeing the IMS but it most likely will be in the evening.

Snugs is acting fine Thank God.
Than you Molly for your support and good thoughts!

[beaglemom3]

I changed USB ports and got my scanner to work,
Here is Snugs urine analysis and urine culture/sensitivity
as you can see most are resistant to it except for some injectable antibiotics.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6233450/snugs-urine-tests.pdf

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Where it had the count is that amount consider really high, or they did not day. I know any amount is bad, but wondered . When was his last urine done? I wonder if he has had it since the last test? Guess we'll never know. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I was thinking the same thing about the count, I have no idea but that is one of my questions for the vet on Tuesday. We just ran this test last week so it is very recent, I got the results Friday for the culture which takes longer than the analysis which I got back the next day.

I sure hope he doesn't have it too long.

[labblab]

Hi Vicki,

I am so sorry that you and Snuggles have to be dealing with this issue of infection at all. I have been following the conversation here about the antibiotics, though, and have a couple more thoughts to add for you to have in mind when you talk to the vet tomorrow.

As both Trish and Patti have already posted, there are always risks that have to be weighed against benefits when it comes to virtually every drug. But I do believe there are times when IV or injectable antibiotics are critical in the treatment of aggressive and/or resistant infections, and it may indeed be the case that Snugs is at that point.

In looking through the list of drug sensitivities in relation to Snugs' culture, one issue does come to my mind that I want you to be aware of, however. I see that three of the listed antibiotics to which his infection remains sensitive are members of the class of drugs that can carry a risk of hearing loss for both humans and dogs (gentamicin, tobramycin, and amikasin). We have posted warnings elsewhere on this forum re: the indiscriminate use of eardrops, for instance, containing these types of antibiotics. And if you do some internet searching, you will find related warnings re: this entire class of drugs ("aminoglycosides").

I am not writing about this, however, to tell you or others to never permit the use of these drugs with your dog. As in Snuggles' case, humans and dogs can suffer from infections that simply do not respond to other types of antibiotics and the risk of letting the infection go untreated may far outweigh a relatively small risk of hearing loss. I had this same conversation with my own vet when we were trying to treat a very stubborn ear infection in Peg. Yes, the drug could cause deafness, but an uncontrolled ear infection could definitely cause deafness, too, and might be even a greater risk. Luckily, she finally responded to something else before we fell back on the gentamicin. But I knew that it needed to be considered as an option if other drugs failed and the risks/benefits weighed. Especially for service dogs or canine police officers/soldiers for whom acute hearing is critical, however, ototoxicity is an issue that always should be considered prior to administering this class of drugs.

So I did want to mention this issue before you meet with the vet tomorrow. It may well be that one of these aminogylcosides may be the best way to go right now. But I want you to be well informed for the conversation.

Marianne

[beaglemom3]

Hi Marianne,

I do appreciate your feed back and information. Again I am in a lose/lose situation with this, I hope not I pray not.

I am seeing the Chinese herbal vet later today and will ask her what she suggests.

I recived this from the western herbal, herbalist, please tell me what you think, anyone and everyone who knows about these herbs, Do you think I should try this before the gentamycin?

She writes:

"I suggest Colloidal silver if you can get some locally, and if the infection is on going we can use a stronger mixture that will have herbs like Thuja and Golden seal, which will do really wonders in these kinds of situations.

I have a very good UTI mix that will really help. http://www.mcdowellsherbal.com/prescription-shop/dog-prescriptions/product/836-urinary-tract-infection-mix-canine

We are currently hearing of many dogs experiencing this particular problem. It can be recurrent if they are using antibiotics.

This particular formulation is specific for clearing up any urinary tract infection showing up as odorous or dark coloured urine or incontinence. These infections are really very simple to resolve using herbal medicines and the herbs I include in this mix are Alfalfa, Buchu, Dandelion, Echinacea, Garlic, Rosehips, Uva Ursi and Yarrow along with the Bach Flowers Rescue Remedy and Wild Rose.

This treatment is best used at the first signs of unusual wetting or straining to pass urine and producing little. Temperature or lassitude may also be signs of infection.

The treatment should be continued for a full 12 weeks even if it appears to clear up within a few days.

Dose: 5 to 10 drops for Tiny and Small Breeds; 10 to 20 drops for Medium and Large breeds

Let me know if I can send you anything,"

[beaglemom3]

Also Marianne, any drug on the sensitive list for Snugs culture you would prefer?

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I too wanted to mention what Marianne said about the Gentamicin, but did not want to make problems, I am so glad Marianne brought it up as I did not know if you were aware of it. I pray you can get an injectable to help Snugs. let us know if you find out about the count. Blessings
Patti

[labblab]

Vicki, I'm afraid I don't know enough about the other antibiotics to make a well-informed suggestion. But there are at least a couple other ones on the list that you can talk over with your vet -- the pros-and-cons. I definitely do not know anything about the herbs. Given the fact this seems to be a serious infection, I personally would not feel comfortable waiting around for an extended time period to see whether the herbs will help. I would want to be more aggressive with a drug that is known to be helpful against the type of bacteria that Snugs is harboring. You don't want the infection to advance and damage the kidneys, for instance. But it is easy for me to say that, of course, because I am not the one faced with the decision nor the ramifications. :o

Marianne

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
This bacteria was so nasty and really made my bird sick as could be so I tend to agree, you need something to really knock it out. I don't know if the herbs could do that? You have just had so much to deal with, and poor baby Snugs I feel bad for him. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Marianne and Patti. I'm in the car with my boys on the way home. The ims was wonderful and gave us a bunch of herbal meds to boost their immune system and help with uti. Then she suggested since we are here to see a specialist for this. I told her of the dr that took care of my beloved cuddles for three years and she kept him alive with a great quality of life or those years he had prostate cancer. The ims said yes dr Langston is he best in that field. So she ran downstairs to find dr Langston and omg she did. Dr langston said she wants to redo the urine analysis and culture to make sure since there were no white cells in the analysis. So we did just that and I was told there are ways to give gent mycinor other injectibles so minimal damage is done I think she said to make sure e dog is hydrated very well something like mixing the injectable with water something to that. Effect I'm might not be saying it right. Sorry for typos I'm on ipad in car. So I will have new culture results in about three days urine analysis tomorrow's oh and the amt of bacteria is little both ims said and no white cells so they feel redoing it is warranted. Now to tell my local vet I'm sure he will understand. I hope

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
You have such good vets I am so glad they can work something out that you feel comfortable with. I am glad they thought the count was low on the bacteria. So good that you will know in three days. This has to be good news, as Snugs has had enough problems without this too. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Patti, I am home now, wow I am exhausted! I do think he has some kind of UTI because I been finding little puddles like from leaking, but I am parying its a different more easily fixed UTI but we will see.

I feel good that there is a way to give gentamycin in a way of hopefully prevent the damage it may cause and now that Dr Langston is on the case too she might have a different recommendation since it is her field.

Was so odd, when Dr Langston spotted me in the parking lot when we were getting ready to go home she came right over, OMG was soo good to see her. She helped us with Cuddles cross over the bridge and she sent me the most amazing letter about Cuddles after he passed away. She even told me back then the entire hospital was in love and in awe of Cuddles "zest for life" those were her words and how extremely special he was and how he fought this disease with everything he had and broke all medical records for what he had by living so long , 3 years, after the 3 months to live prognosis.

She even had his picture on her desk for awhile. Right after I said a big hello to her I broke down and cried, like a wave of all my love for Cuddles (which is constant) and memories came flooding back, I could barely speak and tears just ran down my cheeks.
It was really something else like a knee jerk reaction. My darling Cuddles passed away on 9/9/99

[beaglemom3]

wow just got email of urine analysis results
Hi Ms. Sommers,


There is no evidence of urinary tract infection on urine analysis. I will let you know when we get back final culture results (will be 3-5 days).


Does anyone know if it is common to show no evidence of infection on a urine analysis but show on a culture?

[molly muffin]

Hi Vicki, Yes if the urine is dilute, then it may not show on a urinalysis but could show up on a culture. So that is a possibility.

Sweetie, just sending you tons of hugs and love and support. This has been such a hard time for yourself and your furbabies, with one thing after another and it just seems nonending.

I won't be around much coming up, as we're away for a bit, but will be thinking of you!

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

HI Sharlene thank you do much for the information, kind words and support I will miss you! HUGS!

[Trish]

It could be a contaminant too, how was the urine taken?

The original urine showed no bacteria or white cells which is what they commonly look for either. Be interesting to see what the culture of this one is. xx

[beaglemom3]

I am hoping that's what it is but he is leaking a bit though, first one with my local vet I took the sample in a sterile cup but I could have touch something he peed outside when I did that.

Today they took it from his bladder guided by an ultrasound. But the first urine analysis when I collected the urine was negative for infection too..very odd but maybe what Sharlene said is the case his urine was diluted which I am assuming means he drank a lot of water.

[Trish]

Well today's one should give a more accurate result. The specific gravity is not too low, in fact lower end of normal according to some guidelines. It can fluctuate a lot too.

[beaglemom3]

Trish what does specific gravity indicate?

[Trish]

Basically dilution: did a quick google and this explains it fairly well and was only published yesterday!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/donna-solomon-dvm/pet-urine_b_3693280.html

[beaglemom3]

wow great article it explains everything! Thank you Trish :)

[Trish]

Your welcome, hopefully this next sample will have no bug in it!!

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Trish! I hope so too!

[goldengirl88]

Hi Vicki:
Yes I am happy Tipper is managing better. She did quite well yesterday I was so glad to not have to see her struggling. It did make her tired and helped her through the nite. I hope Snugs results come back good. These poor dogs really go thru a lot going to the vets all the time. I think Tipper is beyond getting really crazy at the vets she is there so much she is used to it unfortunately. I am deciding if I will take her for her blood pressure tomorrow or let her have a week off. She has been doing really well. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I didn't even realize the IMS sent me a copy of the urine analysis done yesterday.
here is a link to it:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6233450/IDEXX%20Results_SNUGGLES_06232014.pdf

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
That all looked good no crystals, or glucose that is great. So I guess we just have to wait on the rest of it. I am hopeful it will be fine also. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

thanks Patti and his urine isn't diluted. I sure hope the culture is fine but I have my doubts since he is leaking urine now and then.

[molly muffin]

Hi Vicki, yes it might not be perfect, but what will be important is if he has an infection, what kind and what to use to treat it. So, we'll just hold out a bit of hope for a better report than last time :)

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Sharlene, I should know in a couple of more days. And if it is that same bacteria at least I now have a specialist in that area overseeing what's to be done and how so Snugs has the least amount of side effects God willing.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I just know Snugs is going to do well, in my heart I feel you are doing the very best you can and you have wonderful Dr.'s to rely upon. I am hopeful this infection will respond to the antibiotic and be gone. I continue to pray for Snugs and Brando. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks so much Patti! I wish the culture was back but I know it will take a another day or so, but I want this infection out of him asap!
I started giving him an immune booster powder 2 times a day and a cranberry capsule prescribed by the integrated IMS.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
That immune power booster sounds good. Hopefully that will help him. I am waiting right with you to see these results. You always are right on top of things like me. I feel better to be proactive than reactive right? Blessings
patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Patti :)
I have some amazing news..Snuggles urine culture came back NEGATIVE AROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, Seems the previous culture was a contaminant the previous one was free catch the second withdrawn from bladder OMG I am so relieved and so happy we redid the culture..I shudder to think if I had not gone to the AMC in Manhattan and we gave my poor baby those toxic antibiotics ;(
For now on only urine samples from bladder..

Now not so good news. As of Tuesday my Branny boy was not feeling well. He would wake up looking ill nauseas and yesterday he has diarrhea all watery stool, and wouldn't eat until an hour after waking up. Today hoi stool was better but he looked sick as a dog pardon the expression and refused to eat until about an hour later.

I had an appointment with the groomers today which is in the vets hospital, so Snugs has his bath, he looks and smells like a million dollars but my sweet Brando saw the vet. My vet is off on Thursday but there's another one I love and see her if mine is not around.

My Branny has a mild case of pancreatitis and conjunctivitis in his eyes which the integrated vet noticed on out visit Monday so I knew I needed to get him checked. Branny got intravenous fluids, an injection of an anti nausea medication which she promised me was harmless and I have eye drops for Branny, antibiotics for him too, Pepcid ac and ear antibiotic drops for Snuggie bear who has an ear infection.

Never seems to end, I am so tired from running from 1 vet to another and I am sure my boys are so sick of vets by now. But thank God so far so good considering it all.

Here's Brando's bloodwork for anyone who would like to see them
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6plvrpmvsq0hkei/BRANDOS-BLOODWORK-6-26-14.pdf

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
That is just awesome news, I know how worried you were so now you can relax a little. The blood work all looked good except for the Lipase and the Amylapse. What did they give you for the ear drops? Tipper had the same problem with her eyes when she went to the eye doc. He said it is from seasonal allergies. What are you using for it? I know you are tired of running, it's one thing after another, but we love these babies and so we do it. Tipper never had pancreatitis, but I know a few on here have said their stool gets a funny look to it. Rest now and take care of yourself, what a good ending to a cliff hanger! Blessings
Patti

[Harley PoMMom]

So happy for you and Snuggles!!!!

Sorry to hear that Brando has pancreatitis, I do sympathize with you, my boy, Harley had pancreatitis and it can be a bugger to deal with. Brando's bloodwork looked great and the slight elevations with the ALT and ALP are probably due to the pancreatitis.

If you need any help with Brando's pancreatitis just give a holler, there are plently of us (unfortunately) that have dealt with it. ;)

Hugs, Lori

[Trish]

Fantastic about Snugs, he could have lay in something a bit manky and then when he pee'ed it came off in the urine and voila... contaminated urine. Bugger about Brando though. Poor thing, be feeling a bit yuck with that going on. Hopefully he is feeling better, it can be quite painful for them, have you got something to help with that? xxxx

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Was Brando showing any outward signs of pancreatitis before you took him in. I know you said he seemed off and his bowel movement was not good, but did he seem in pain or hunching his back up at all? Maybe you caught it right away. I wonder what stirred that up as you feed the same thing I feed Tipper and it is not high fat. Do you think he got into something? Probably not as you can see what they are doing when you are working right? Hope he gets better soon. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thank you Patti, Lori and Trish Yes I am quite relieved about Snuggles but very tired. Thanks Lori for your offer I will take you up on that. Patti I have no idea how the pancreatitus happened and I work from home and watch them on my IP Camera when I up here at the computer.

The thing is which makes it even stranger, Snuggles has chronic pancreatitus and 2 years ago when it first started he was seriously ill. 106 fever his numbers were through the roof and was hospitalized for 4 days.
So they have both been on a low fat food Fromm Senior reduced activity Gold dry plus their only treats is even a lower fat food 7% fat, which is prescription food I use for their treats. So how this happened to Brando I have no idea, I am neurotically strict with their diets since Snugs fell so ill with this illness,
plus he is a bit underweight which I keep them both since Snugs had such a bad case of pancreatitus. Sometimes you can try and do all the right things and BAM!

My vet said many times they do not know why dogs get this.

Trish and Patti, no he did not seem in any pain, but he wouldn't eat breakfast (but did so about an hour after breakfast time) which for a beagle is a very bad sign, he would wake up looking ill, nauseated, but no vomitting then Wednesday he had watery diarrhea, I knew it was time to go to the vet even though we were just at one 2 days before. Us beagle people have a saying, when a beagle doesn't eat, run don't walk to the vet. Beagles are extremely food driven and will eat til they explode.

Lori, if you can give me any pointers or tips I would greatly appreciate it.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I knew you were able to watch them when you worked and figured you would know if they had gotten in anything. I remember you are strict with their diets and low fat everything. It is so scary to me that these dogs are so susceptible to this. It's like it just came out of the blue! How is he doing today? Maybe Lori can help with some pointers as her dog had this. You are probably worn out from all this. I try to watch Tipper's diet very strictly too, but I think there is something else to this equation where the cush dogs are concerned, some unknown factor here that we don't know about, therefore cannot prevent it from happening. I hope he gets rid of this and it never comes back! Blessings
Patti

[Harley PoMMom]

I posted this to another member not too long ago, and since I am lazy I am pasting it here! My boy, Harley, showed no symptoms of pancreatitis so I was shocked when it was found on his first ultrasound. I agree with your vet, sometimes a reason for the pancreatitis can not be found. One question I do have is, have they performed a spec cPL test?


There's an article on the dogaware site (which I will provide a link to) that has a lot of really good information regarding pancreatitis and diet, here's an excerpt from that site:


As a general rule, veterinarians consider diets with less than 10 percent fat on a dry matter basis (less than 17 percent of calories from fat) to be low fat, while diets with 10 to 15 percent fat (17 to 23 percent of calories) are considered moderate fat. Foods with more than 20 percent fat are considered high-fat. A few dogs may need a very low-fat diet, especially if they have hyperlipidemia, or if they react to foods with higher levels of fat.

When comparing the percentage of fat in different foods, you must consider the food’s moisture content. The percentage of fat in wet food (canned or fresh) must be converted to dry matter (DM) for comparison purposes, or to use the guidelines above. To do the conversion, first determine the amount of dry matter by subtracting the percentage of moisture from 100, then divide the percentage of fat by the result. For example, if a food is 75 percent moisture and 5 percent fat, divide 5 by 25 (100 – 75) to get 20 percent fat DM.

Keeping a dog well hydrated, you want them drinking lots of water, helps with the healing of the pancreas. Low fat, moderate fiber, quality protein is a diet suitable for pancreatitis, also using carbs as a filler is a good option when reducing fat content, carbs such as pasta, rice, oatmeal, potatoes.. are some that can be used.

Dogaware article: Healthy Low-Fat Diets for Dogs (http://www.dogaware.com/articles/wdjlowfatdiets.html) and Pancreatitis in Dogs (http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjpancreatitis.html)

Uncontrolled pancreatitis can lead to diabetes, kidney problems,etc. There are two types of pancreatitis, acute and chronic. Both are painful but acute pancreatitis can be life threatening. My boy Harley had chronic pancreatitis which means his pancreas was angry all the time :eek: We could never get his spec cPL numbers under 300, Harley's pancreatitis was found thru an ultrasound and he never showed any symptoms of pancreatitis.

Any questions please do ask, ok? ;)

Hugs, Lori

Another thing I want to add is that feeding small meals throughout the day is best for a dog that has pancreatitis. Please do ask all the questions you want ;)

Hugs, Lori

[beaglemom3]

Thanks so much Lori, my regular vet wasn't there and I don't think the vet that saw Branny did a cPL which I wonder why since we do that for Snuggles. I am getting the urine tests results Monday and will ask my vet why wasn't it done and if he thinks we should.

Lori, what food do you feed Harley for his chronic pancreatitus? I have been using for both boys http://frommfamily.com/products/gold/dog/dry/reduced-activity-senior-gold since we got Snuggles off Hills Prescription ID GI Restore which is what they fed him in the hospital when he had to be hospitalized for his pancreatitis. Snuggles has chronic pancreatitis.
and using the Hills Prescription ID GI Restore (dry) for their treats. I am not thrilled using this food but its the only food I can find with 7% fat.

I put Brando on it now for his regular food instead of the Fromm senior reduced activity which is 11% fat. and started feeding them 3 times a day again instead of two..3 small portions. Can you please take a look at the nutritional info for the Fromm food I give them and tell me what you think? I am so bad with math and the formulas to find out about the fat you posted is very confusing to me.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am glad you asked Lori that as I use the same food you do for Tipper and I don't want any problems with her either. Hope it is going better every day. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Hi Patti,

I highly doubt the senior gold caused Brando's pancreatitis, he's been on it over 2 years, and Snuggles who has chronic pancreatitis has been on it since we got him off the hills over 2 years ago. Something else caused in with Brando. But I need to know if that food is good for Brando while having his attack, is why I asked Lori and how she feels about it as food for dogs with chronic pancreatitis.

Does Tipper have pancreatitis?

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Super cute avatar!! No Tipper has never had that fortunately it is one thing we have not had to deal with. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thank God Tipper doesn't have it and thank you hehe my boys were kissing (I used peanut butter on their noses to get them to lick it off each other LOL)

They were much younger in the pic, they still have color on their face.

[goldengirl88]

The color has gone from Tipper's face too, her brown mask is disappearing!

[Harley PoMMom]

Lori, what food do you feed Harley for his chronic pancreatitus? I have been using for both boys http://frommfamily.com/products/gold/dog/dry/reduced-activity-senior-gold since we got Snuggles off Hills Prescription ID GI Restore which is what they fed him in the hospital when he had to be hospitalized for his pancreatitis. Snuggles has chronic pancreatitis.
and using the Hills Prescription ID GI Restore (dry) for their treats. I am not thrilled using this food but its the only food I can find with 7% fat.

Hi Vicki,

We got lucky, Fromm does list the dry matter (DM), when I clicked on their "View Detailed Analysis" the information was there ~ whew!

It states that the gold-dog-dry-reduced-activity-senior has 12.66% of fat DM. So this would be considered a moderate fat diet.

Sometimes manufacturers change the ingredients in their dog food without letting the public know and this can cause a dog that has been doing very well on this food to become out of sorts because of the change of ingredients. Fromm is a really good dog food, my cats are fed Fromm cat food, and as far as I know they are not known to do this.

Since Snuggles, who has chronic pancreatitis is doing well, I'm not sure if I would switch foods right now, however, it might be helpful to know if Brando's pancreatitis is acute or chronic.

When Harley's pancreatitis was found I had a diet formulated for him. Harley did well on this diet but later on he became really picky, so then I was feeding him what ever he would eat.


I put Brando on it now for his regular food instead of the Fromm senior reduced activity which is 11% fat. and started feeding them 3 times a day again instead of two..3 small portions. Can you please take a look at the nutritional info for the Fromm food I give them and tell me what you think? I am so bad with math and the formulas to find out about the fat you posted is very confusing to me.

Feeding them 3 times a day is a really good idea, good job! Keeping them well hydrated will help too, with Harley I would add water to almost everything he ate. Pancreatitis can be such a bugger to control. You are doing a fantastic job with your boys.

Hugs, Lori

[goldengirl88]

Vicky:
I do feed Tipper several times a day too and I have found it keeps her weight down and keeps her from feeling hungry because of the Cushings. Maybe you might cause more problems switching the food since they have been on Fromm for so long?? Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks so much Lori :) Lori I will be asking my vet to run the spec cPL on Branny. Brando never had this issue before his last blood work was 4 months ago and everything was good. How can we tell if it is acute or chronic? Also where does one get a diet formulated for a dog? and good idea to add water to his food, he is definitely not drinking enough. I throw a piece or two of his food in the water bowl to try and get him to drink.

Patti I am not switching Snugs food but on the advice of my vet Brando is getting only the hills prescription as his food until his numbers become normal God willing. He is used to the Hills prescription since they get those as treats for about a year or so. But Lori can you confirm giving him just the Hills Prescription w/o slowly switching over wont be an issue sicne hes ben getting it all along but not at mealtimes?

Last 2 mornings Brando is waking up fine and hungry for breakfast, his coat looks a lot better too, not dry, nice and smooth and shiny. and today for the first time in about a week he pulled his give me my dinner stunt. I keep the steps gated because I fear if they walk up with their arthritic hind legs they might lose their step and fall. So every night at 5:30 (they get fed at 6) Brando would knock the gate down to get my attention saying FEED ME NOW!
For the last week or so he has not done that until tonight!

Never did the sound of a wooden gate crashing onto a tile floor make me so happy :)

[goldengirl88]

Oh that is so cute!!

[beaglemom3]

hehe yup they know how to get mommy's attention! LOL

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
That was a good idea with the peanut butter!

[beaglemom3]

Interesting study, but I always thought taking a biopsy of a pheo was risky

Accuracy of cytology in distinguishing adrenocortical tumors from pheochromocytoma in companion animals
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24931693

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

The distinction between adrenocortical tumors and pheochromocytoma can be challenging using clinical findings, diagnostic imaging and laboratory tests. Cytology might be a simple, minimally invasive method to reach a correct diagnosis.

OBJECTIVES:

The purpose of this study was to assess the accuracy of cytology in differentiating cortical from medullary tumors of the adrenal glands in dogs and cats.

METHODS:

Cytologic key features of adrenocortical tumors and pheochromocytoma were defined by one reference author. Cytologic specimens from primary adrenal tumors were submitted to 4 cytopathologists who were asked to classify the tumors based on the previously defined key features without knowledge of previous classification.

RESULTS:

Twenty specimens from histologically confirmed adrenal tumors (Group 1) and 4 specimens from adrenal tumors causing adrenal-dependent Cushing's syndrome (Group 2) were evaluated by the 4 cytopathologists. Accuracy in differentiating cortical from medullary origin ranged from 90% to 100%, with a Kappa coefficient of agreement between cytopathologists of 0.95.

CONCLUSIONS:

The origin of an adrenal tumor can be easily determined by cytology alone in many cases. However, cytology was not reliable in distinguishing benign from malignant neoplasia. Additional studies are needed to assess possible risks and complications associated with fine-needle biopsy of adrenal tumors in dogs and cats.

© 2014 American Society for Veterinary Clinical Pathology and European Society for Veterinary Clinical Pathology

[goldengirl88]

Vicki;
I thought it was too?? I cannot get enough of that avatar. That is a real Kodak moment worthy of a frame. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Patti..
It has been a horrible week and a half, first my baby boy Branny has pancreatitus, he was feeling better the last 2 days, eating, drinking, poops back to normal.
I wake up today and my poor Branny can barely walk and is whimpering from pain. I didn't know if it was the pancreatitis or his back. So I took him to the vet and it was his back and because of his pancreatitis we did not want to give him any steroids and such so he had a laser massage treatment. Its supposed to be for 12 sessions but I am not sure I will continue it. I prefer he heal with crate rest if possible. I already paid the $450 for the 12 sessions, I hope they will refund me if I decide not to do it anymore.

I am getting so depressed with everything going on with my boys, seems like one thing after another since last October ;(

[Trish]

Hi Vicki

Poor Branny, he has been in the wars this past week or so. I hope they gave him something for pain to make him more comfortable and he is feeling better tomorrow. Pancreatitis can be very painful, he is not having more symptoms of that is he, appetite still good? No vomiting, diarrhea?? Hopefully it has not worsened and the vets gave him a good review to decide on a back problem.

Re the adrenal biopsy study. That is very interesting to me. I tried to sleuth around to see if I could find the full study anywhere but cannot if I do not pay for it.:) I was told by our IMS prior to Flynn's adrenalectomy that it is tricky to biopsy adrenal glands because of their location with the risk of complications. Also if it was a pheo, sticking a needle into it could cause it to go into overdrive and secrete a lot of catechamines which can potentially be fatal. Even during his surgery he decided not to biopsy because of that risk. I do note they do not go into their complications in this abstract, but in the summary they mention that further investigation is needed into the risks and complications of adrenal biopsy. It would be good to have the full article to review! Thanks for posting, it is good to see that further research is ongoing for adrenal tumours. x

[molly muffin]

Oh no poor Branny! Is he being given Tramadol for pain? Crate rest for sure. Poor guy he is having a time of it, which means you are too.
Gosh I hope this month is going to be better and the boys have an issue free summer. Wouldn't that be nice.

My IMS too mentioned that she didn't recommend any biopsy of the adrenal nodule or in Molly's case even the liver, unless she was showing obvious signs of liver disease as they can be tricky and cause other problems that weren't there before. Her motto "do no harm" is one I like. I would like to see the entire study though. Oh well, never know when it might show up somewhere else and we can get our hands on it. :)

Hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Trish and Molly, Brando is doing better today, walking better, eating again and drinking. My vet told me it was the pain shot he got yesterday before the massage treatment for his back, that caused him not to want to eat or drink. But at 9PM I hand fed him and got his meds for his pancreatitis in him, so I was relieved.

I am going to buy my boys raised feeders, I think that will be easier for both of them for their backs, both have bad backs but usually they show no sign of it.

Trish, yes I have tramadol for him but so far he he doesn't seem to need 1 today mainly I think I am confining him to his crate, but he did walk up and down our 3 steps to go potty outside which he found hard to do yesterday. I do think that massage treatment helped, but I don't like he gets that narcotic shot before hand and he is doped up for hours afterwards, I don't know if that's for every session or not though.

I read that as well in the conclusion that more information needs to be found about risks and complications of doing a needle point aspiration on adrenal gland tumors. It would be great though if they can find a risk free way of doing that.

hehe I hear him whining wanting to get out of his crate, which is a good sign he wants out because he loves relaxing in his crate, but this tells me he feels better. Hopefully in the next few days he will be 100% better.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I was so relieved to log on and find out Branny is better and what caused him to be out of sorts. If they will not give you the money back I would definitely use the laser therapy to my advantage. Tipper has been going over a year now and it has been a tremendous help for her. With the musculoskeletal issues these dogs get from losing muscle mass and tendons weakening it will do nothing but help. Tipper has a dip in her back where the muscle and tendons let go holding her rib cage etc. I know it pulls when she walks and has to bother her back. My laser therapist does her whole body practically. It renews and energizes their cells to start working so it is all a good thing. I think the fact that Tipper is still able to walk about a mile a day speaks volumes for it, because as we know these dogs so become exercise intolerant. It really helped when she tore that ACL in her rear leg. She can walk normally most of the time and on rare occasions it may bother her a bit, but as soon as she goes to laser she is good again. I now you are worn out from all this. Your boys have had many issues going on and had you scared to death many times over. I truly know how you feel, you are always waiting for the second shoe to drop! Maybe and hopefully this will be all the issues for a while, as you have had more than your share to deal with. You own health I think has taken a turn because of all this stress and anxiety, but who would not be stressed and worn out? I hope for nothing but good things for you and your boys in the coming months. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Patti for your support and good wishes

The Laser Massage seemed to make a difference today. Do they drug Tipper each time? I did not like that

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
No they never drug Tipper, and your boys are so calm , I am not sure why they feel the need to do that. I would say no to that if it were me. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Molly never got drugged for her laser therapy either. In and out basically. I had it for her back problems.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

I am thinking maybe they did that due to the pain he was in and the massage would have hurt him. But I will tlak to them more about what happens each time I am annoyed no one explained to me and my vet said Brando needs 3 treatments, but when we went to the the girl said we have to pay for 10 or 12 treatments. I really pissst me off we did not get all the correct info before agreeing to it.

We are getting a really bad storm now tons of lightening very loud thunder that's making me jump heavy rains and winds. Flash flood warnings all over here. I hope I do not lose electricity.

My boys don't even notice the storm noises, thank God. I am flinching from it but they are both fast asleep snuggled up together on the couch.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Stay safe and I hope you get this all sorted out, they really should have explained all this before you had to pay for so many. I still don't understand the sedative as Tipper was in a lot of pain from her ACL and what they do does not hurt at all or Tipper would be flashing her smile and snapping. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

There might be a difference between the massage therapy and the laser therapy that you and I had for our girls Patti. Maybe they thought a deep tissue massage could hit a sore spot and they wanted to spare Brandy that. But do ask Vicki, you need to understand why things are done and they should be good to explain Everything to you.

Curl up with those boys of yours. They seem to have the right idea! :) Course they know that they have you to protect them always. :)

Hang in there Vicki! That was aggravating to have to pay for so many at one go when you weren't aware of it at the time. Maybe they can transfer it to something else if you don't want the massage therapy? Something like a laser might be good too.

huggers
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

Phew that is good news about Branny feeling better, very pleased to read he has come right. Resting does seem to help, Flynny's hot water bottle on the back helped too, or maybe a heat pack would do the same job. I managed to tweak my own back earlier this week, couple of days of anti inflammatories (which I know we cannot give your boys) panadol, Flynny's hottie and it has come right too... probably a reaction to having to go back to work :D Hope the rest of your week goes smoother Vicki. Yes, I agree it would be great if they could do adrenal biopsy safely!! Would take away a whole lot of worry for a lot of us and make deciding on management so much easier xx

[goldengirl88]

Hi Vicki:
Hoping the boys are doing well this morning, and that you got some rest too. Tipper's laser therapist also has a device to do laser acupuncture, and when she is done with the laser therapy she also do the acupuncture on her. I am hoping you get this issue resolved as I would not want my dog drugged like that all the time either. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I hope you have been resting up, and no new issues to deal with. I hope you and the boys have a restful holiday weekend. Are they afraid of fireworks? Tipper was never before, but may be this year as everything seems to bother her in the way of noise. Blessings
Patti