Brando has joined Snuggles at The Bridge; PHEO - Need Info and Advice Please

[molly muffin]

Snuggles is having a grand time it looks like. Did his head ever come up? hahahaha Very engrossed in his project there.
Brando looks pretty good for just having surgery. Even getting a look out the door, a favorite pastime I'm sure. :)
Glad everything is going well!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Trish]

Awww I like it!! Branny looks like he wants to go outside and Snugs wants in that bag haha :D Brando looks good, moving a bit slow but that is to be expected. Pleased to see them looking good :D x

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am so glad Brando is recuperating well. I hope he continues to get better every dya. The videos were so cute. You have been thru the wringer and deserve for you and your boys to be happy. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thank you Sharlene Trish and Patti, Branny was walking normally towards the end of the day with a pep in his step and at his usually pace.

I just fed them their breakfast and gave Snugs his maritime pine bark extract and his adrenal gland extract mixture with his meal. Both went potty and now relaxing in the comfort of their sofa lol they get the big one we get the love seat.

[molly muffin]

Of course they get the big one. LOL Never in doubt was it? :) :) I know our molly can take up a lot of space for such a little thing.

Glad Branny is doing better and pep to his step. :)

hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am so glad you are having time to enjoy your boys. They are allowing you to have the love seat that is too funny. What a wonderful thing that Branny has gotten his doggy swagger back! Hoping for continued improvements. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thank you Sharlene and Patti, today I am not smiling :(

Branny is acting great though thank God and so is Snugs which I am so grateful for and thrilled, but the vet just called with Brando's biopsy report, it was cancer and it is the type of cancer that comes back ;( He told me the name but I could not make it out over the phone when I have the biopsy report I can explain in more detail.

I think he said it usually does not spread but it does comes back. I don't know how long it takes to reoccur when I have the results I will understand more and then look into herbal treatment for my sweet Brando.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Maybe it won't be so bad. You could have him examined frequently, and if they see anything immediately get rid of it. I am praying this is manageable somehow. How is Snugs doing? Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Oh fooey on that. :( Maybe though like Patti said, you know to watch for it now and if he gets a lump you get it removed asap.

When do you get the report?

hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

I received the report earlier today but its like I got punched in the stomach again.
This site explains about my Branny's tumor

Hemangiopericytoma
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1518
the article states it grows back in 6-12 months, deeper and more difficult to remove

[molly muffin]

Okay. Yea that is a kick. So radiation is best bet and maybe you could see if any new radiation treatments exist. Like the one used for butters macro is not as many sessions as Doccys was. Or chemotherapy since they seem to have gotten it all this time. I think you should speak to your specialist about Branny now too.
This is certainly devastating to read about as it seems doing nothing means it will back within the year. On average? Radiation seems to be a high percentage cure.
Take some time to think this through and talk to your specialist to get the best and latest info.

We're here through whatever may come.

Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[drmvz]

http://www.justanswer.com/pet-dog/19zlb-treat-dog-hemangiopericytoma.html

Soft Tissue Sarcomas Medical FAQs

What tumors are we talking about here?

The three most common soft-tissue sarcomas (STS) are fibrosarcoma, hemangiopericytoma, and peripheral nerve sheath tumor. Less common STS include schwannoma, leiomyosarcoma, 'spindle cell tumor' (unspecified), neurofibrosarcoma, liposarcoma, and myxosarcomas. Hemangiosarcomas, rhabdomyosarcomas, and lymphangiosarcomas are also STS strictly speaking, but since they behave differently from other more typical STS, they are not covered in this FAQ.

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What is the best way to approach surgery of soft-tissue sarcomas (STS)?

Soft-tissue sarcomas (STS) often extend well beyond the visible mass, much like mast cell tumors. For this reason you should ALWAYS know when you are going to excise a STS - ie diagnose before excision. This can be done by performing a fine needle aspirate (FNA) and cytology on every mass before it is excised. FNA can often be easily examined in-house, although the practitioner's level of training, interest and experience in cytological diagnostic interpretation will strongly impact the likelihood of a correct diagnosis. If a clinician lacks experience, interest or appropriate staining techniques, or has any hesitation in the cytological diagnosis, the sample should be sent out for specialist interpretation. Many STS are difficult to differentiate from fibroplasia (a benign process), requiring specialist interpretation. Additionally, Diff-quik staining is inferior to Giemsa staining, and may also hamper accurate in-house diagnosis. Thus, clinicians are advised to make 2 sets of smears - one for in-house examination (if desired), and a second (unstained) for submission to a diagnostic pathology service.

Once a STS is confirmed, the tumor is excised with 3cm lateral margins, 1 fascial layer deep. This avoids going anywhere near the tumor during your surgery and thereby adheres to an important principle of cancer surgery - en bloc resection. Some oncologists prefer to perform an incisional biopsy and histopathology to obtain a histological grade prior to performing the excisional biopsy, for prognostic purposes and therapeutic planning.

However, clinicians should be aware the up to 40% of STS that have "clean margins" histologically, may recur ("clean but close" margins are obviously at higher risk for such local recurrence). It is important to notice that we will often recommend advanced imaging (CT or MRI) prior to excision of a STS, especially when the mass is large, firmly attached to the underlying tissue, and/or in a location where wide margins may be more difficult. Consulting with a boarded surgeon is also recommended in such situations. This also applies to ALL feline vaccine site sarcomas.

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The pathologist has said that a tumor I excised is a STS and margins were dirty. What should I do?

STS (including hemangiopericytomas, schwannomas, nerve sheath tumors, fibrosarcomas, spindle cell tumors, leiomyosarcomas, but not hemangiosarcomas or lymphangiosarcomas) all tend to have several features in common:

1. They invade well past their visible or palpable margins ("tendrils").

2. They appear to be encapsulated but are not. The pseudocapsule comprises a layer of compacted but actively growing neoplastic cells. This is important because dissecting these out ("shelling") will result in local recurrence.

3. They are locally invasive but late to metastasize. If you effect local control, then you often have obtained a cure.

Thus, if surgical margins were dirty, the treatments of choice are to re-excise en-toto with wider margins all around the original tumor site and/or perform radiation therapy.

To treat these you need to

1. Perform a wide and deep resection. 3cm wide, 1 fascial plane deep. If you cannot do this because of tumor location then get an incisional biopsy and discuss your options with a surgical or radiation oncologist. In some cases, grafts or patches may be necessary to reconstruct the wound site.

2. Stay well away from the edge of the tumor at all times.

3. If necessary, perform radiation therapy to sterilize residual disease if margins were not clean.

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What about if the margins are clean or "clean but close"?

If margins are clean, radiation therapy can be considered (see below). This is probably even more valuable if the margins are "clean but close" (high risk of local recurrence). Alternatively, careful monitoring of the site for recurrence, with re-excision can be employed.

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Does chemotherapy help with treating STS?

Soft tissue sarcomas are not very chemoresponsive in general and best treated surgically with or without adjunct radiotherapy. Most studies show modest response rates in the range of 20 to 30%. There may be limited rationale for using chemotherapy in STS that appear highly malignant, or have high metastatic potential. It should generally be coupled with surgery and radiotherapy.

Other agents, such as the non-specific immunomodulator Acemannan, have not been critically evaluated, and are not recommended currently.

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Does radiotherapy help with treating STS?

There is evidence that adjunct radiotherapy offers a prolonged disease-free interval and survival when used to treat microscopic disease following surgical resection. Several studies have documented long remission and survival periods (>1500 days median survival) in that setting, when postoperative radiotherapy is used. Additionally, it has shown benefit in limb-sparing tumor treatment, with 75% disease free at 5 years in one study. However, as a sole treatment, responses seem poorer than if combined with surgery. Oral STS appear to be associated with poorer prognosis.

Radiotherapy can also be used palliatively in non-resectable STS to offer pain relief, in addition to traditional analgesic therapy.

************************************************** ***********

So, as you can see from this article, STS's commonly are locally invasive, so it is not uncommon to have "dirty" margins with tumour cells extending past the margins and into the tissues. Ideally, treatment would be to surgicallly remove this tumour, as much as possible given the location. As you can see from the article, this means 3cm in EVERY direction. In this location it might be impossible, and I think that is what your vet wants to talk to the specialist about. In terms of radiation therapy, I will quote here from a 2003 conference proceedings.

************************************************** **********************************************

Clinical Radiation Therapy Western Veterinary Conference 2003 Karelle A. Meleo, DVM, ACVIM, ACVR
Veterinary Oncology Services
Edmonds, Washington, USA

Objectives

Reviewing the types of radiation available.

Identifying the tumors most commonly treated in veterinary radiation oncology.

Discussing treatment of radiation toxicity.

Overview of radiation therapy protocols.

Key Points

Either a Cobalt source or a Linear Accelerator is used for megavoltage therapy.

When a patient is treated with definitive radiation therapy, multiple fractions are needed.

Radiation is a localized treatment.

Combining radiation and surgery is often recommended.

The skin and mucous membranes are common areas of acute toxicity.

The eyes, lungs, kidneys, and the nervous system are of concern for toxicity.

Overview

Types of Radiation Therapy

Most institutions have either Cobalt or a Linear accelerator (Linac) available. These both produce megavoltage radiation.

Orthovoltage generally does not penetrate as deeply as megavoltage so does limit the types of patients that can be treated.

Some (but not all) Linacs can generate electrons. Electrons are particularly useful in treating superficial areas with sensitive structures (such as lung) underneath.

Definitive vs Palliation Radiation Therapy

We should consider definitive (given with the intent of long term control) therapy in patients:

1. With tumors of low metastatic rate or in tumor types in which the mets can reasonably be controlled with chemotherapy or;

2. For whom the above is true and surgery is not an option either due to the location of the tumor, or due to the owner's reluctance to consider aggressive surgery or;

3. In whom surgery has been performed and there are still neoplastic cells remaining at the surgical margin (especially if #1 above is true as well).

We can consider palliative (given with the intent of managing pain, improving function, and/or maintaining the quality of life) therapy in patients:

1. With tumors of high metastatic rate or known metastases and/or

2. In whom pain management is needed (such as bone tumors).

Tumors Commonly Treated with Radiation Therapy

Oral Tumors

Advances in surgical techniques such as maxillectomy and mandibulectomy offer many patients excellent long-term control for many of these tumor types. Radiation therapy can be offered as an alternative to surgery or as an adjunct to surgery for many of these patients.

Epulides: Biopsies of these lesions may be acanthomatous epulis, fibromatous epulis, ameloblastoma, or odontogenic tumor.When treated with radiation therapy, 85% are free of disease at 1 year and 67% disease free at 2 years.

Canine oral fibrosarcoma & squamous cell carcinoma: For both of these tumor types, soft tissue resection alone is usually inadequate, especially if the tumor abuts the bone. The reported median survival time for dogs with oral sarcomas treated with surgery and radiation therapy is 540 days.

Tonsillar squamous cell carcinoma (SCC) is a very aggressive disease and is resistant to therapy.

When using radiation therapy alone to treat dogs with SCC of other locations, survival times from 14-17 months have been reported. Younger dogs and those with smaller and more rostrally located tumors have a better prognosis.

Canine Oral Melanoma: Melanomas are considered "relatively" radioresistant. This means we must give a larger radiation dose per fraction than is traditionally used for other tumors. These large dose per fraction protocols usually limits the total dose that can safely be used. This results in fewer fractions (3-6 vs 14-21 normal protocols), being delivered. In one study, dogs given 3 fractions had a median survival time of 7.9 months. In a study where dogs were given 6 fractions of along with Cisplatin chemotherapy, the median survival time was reported to be approximately 12 months. Unfortunately, most patients still succumb to metastatic disease.

Nasal Tumors-Canine

The median survival time of dogs treated with megavoltage radiation is 12.8 months with a mean of 20.7 months. In some studies, dogs with sarcomas have been reported to have an improved survival time over dogs with carcinomas. This occurs even though sarcomas are not as radiation responsive as carcinomas. The slow growth rate of sarcomas compared to carcinomas likely explains this difference. It is not necessary to perform rhinotomy to reduce the tumor size prior to radiation therapy.

Nasal Tumors-Feline

The survival time for cats treated with megavoltage radiation is similar to that seen in dogs. 44.3% of cats treated are alive at 1 year after therapy and 16.6% are alive 2 years after treatment.

Nasal lymphoma is a notable exception. When radiation is combined with aggressive chemotherapy over 75% of cats are alive at 2 years. Cats treated with 3 radiation treatments did just as well as cats treated with 18 treatments.

Brain Tumors

In general, megavoltage is recommended over orthovoltage therapy, but many patients treated with orthovoltage have benefited from treatment. Survival times reported in the literature range from 150-412 days. Radiation may be used alone or combined with surgery. Dogs with meningioma have a better prognosis than dogs with glioma. Severe neurologic signs and/or multiple tumors are considered negative prognostic factors.

There are few studies on cats with brain tumors treated with radiation therapy. Surgery alone results in survival times of months to years in cats with meningioma.

Mast Cell Tumors

When treated with surgery alone, 50% of dogs with grade II mast cell tumors will have recurrence or metastasis within 1 year. As 50-60% of canine mast cell tumors occur on the limbs it is difficult to get a complete (2 cm or larger) resection on many of these lesions.

Radiation is indicated in dogs with grade II mast cell tumor who have incomplete resection and who have no metastatic disease. Studies have shown that 86-95% of dogs who are treated post operatively are free of cancer for at least 3 years after treatment.

Radiation is a local treatment and does not address metastatic disease.

Soft Tissue Sarcomas

Among other tumor types, soft tissue sarcomas include: Fibrosarcoma, Hemangiopericytoma, Nerve Sheath Tumor, Leiomyosarcoma, Liposarcoma, Hemangiosarcoma, Synovial Cell Sarcoma, Malignant Fibrous Histiocytoma, and Undifferentiated Sarcoma. With the notable exceptions of hemangiosarcoma and high-grade synovial cell sarcoma, these are characterized by a high rate of local recurrence but a low to moderately low rate of metastasis. Grade is important to prognosis.

In a study of dogs with soft tissue sarcomas treated with radiation following gross resection, 75% were still free of disease 5 years following surgery.

In some cases, it may be beneficial to use radiation prior to surgery. This is frequently true of vaccine-associated sarcomas in cats. It may be safer to treat a smaller field prior to performing surgery than a larger one postoperatively. Radiation will effectively treat the cells that are on the margins of the tumor as they are well oxygenated and often dividing rapidly. Surgery is then performed a few weeks after radiation to remove as much of the radiated field as possible.

Pre operative radiation is not recommended to make a tumor that is grossly unresectable resectable, but can be used to increase the probability that a grossly complete excision will also be microscopically complete. It also helps prevent seeding of tumor cells along the surgery site.

Palliative Therapy

Radiation therapy can be used to temporarily reduce the size of a tumor and stop or slow its growth. This can be helpful in improving a patient's quality of life by relieving pain (especially bone pain), decreasing bleeding, and/or relieving swelling or obstruction. One commonly treated tumor is canine osteosarcoma. Approximately 75% of dogs treated have improved limb function for a few to several months. Because lymphocytes are very radiation sensitive, palliative radiation can play a role for lymphoma patients as well.

For additional information on the use of radiation therapy to treat mast cell tumors and head and neck cancer, the reader is referred to proceeding notes on these subjects.

Radiation Toxicity

Acute Toxicity

The skin and mucous membranes are commonly affected during and immediately after therapy. Moist desquamation of the skin, similar to a "hot spot", is quite common. In areas that move or bear weight (such as the stifle or the carpus), lameness may result.

Skin reactions usually are treated with topical antibiotics and analgesics. In the early stages, vitamin E oil and Aloe Vera gel seem to reduce discomfort. When the majority of the field is involved, Silvadene® cream or similar can be applied B-TID. Preventing self-trauma is important, but bandaging should be used only if necessary. Oral antibiotics are rarely needed but can be used. Non-steroidal anti inflammatories can be used for pain, and the author often uses anti inflammatory doses of prednisone if there is lameness or a decreased appetite.

Mucositis is generally managed with anti inflammatory medications and soft food.

Depending on the radiation protocol, acute reactions should be well on their way to healing 10-14 days after the radiation is over. Although a lesion may still be visible, pain medication can usually be discontinued at that point. If the animal is still uncomfortable 3 weeks after radiation is over, consultation with a radiation oncologist is recommended.

KCS and conjunctivitis are common when the eye is in the radiation field. Both can be managed symptomatically. KCS may be temporary or permanent.

Acute pneumonitis may be seen if large volumes of lung are in the field.

Acute nephritis may occur soon after a kidney is irradiated.

Chronic Toxicity

The most common chronic toxicities we see are cosmetic. Alopecia, mild skin fibrosis, and a change of coat color are common.

The organ system that is responsible for most chronic toxicity is the vascular system. The vascular endothelium thickens after radiation, leading to narrowing of the vessel and increasing the risk of thrombosis and subsequent necrosis. The spinal cord is especially sensitive to this due to the lack of collateral circulation.

Anti-inflammatory levels of corticosteroids during and for several months following therapy reduce the probability of serious toxicity as they decrease the inflammation within the walls of the blood vessels.

Cataract formation 1 year or longer after radiation is expected when the eye is in the radiation field.

Fibrosis of the lungs is expected if this area is irradiated, however if the volume treated is low, this is not a clinical problem.

Summary

Radiation therapy can be used to prolong disease-free time in many common tumors. Treating soft tissue sarcomas and mast cell tumors with a combination of surgery and radiation can be very successful.

If your histology report says, "Tumor cells (may) extend to the excised margin" the best chance of preventing recurrence is immediately post op!

Palliative radiation therapy can be used to improve quality of life.

Acute toxicity is generally short lived and easily managed. Chronic toxicity is rarely serious if careful treatment planning is used

Speaker Information

Karelle A. Meleo, DVM, ACVIM, ACVR
Specialty Practitioner, Oncology
Veterinary Oncology Services
Edmonds, WA

[Trish]

Oh dear, poor Brando. I hope the surgeon got clear margins from the tumour and he does really well. Big hug for you, just seems like one thing after another x

[doxiesrock912]

vicki,

we'll pray that Brando is an exception to the rule.

Hugs!

[beaglemom3]

I am sick to my stomach I don't think he got clear margins.
and 1 margin was only 2 mm. I hope I am reading the lateral margin wrong but to me it seems it is not clear.
here is his biopsy report.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4b1v8wlk8voihce/brannybiopsy.pdf
Thank you all for your prayers and good wishes we really need them ;(
and thank so much for the information

[Tina]

Oh Vicki, I am so sorry to read this latest news about Brando. I have to get to work now and haven't had a chance to read every post or the report, but wanted to send you love and prayers and let you know that I am thinking about you and your boys.

Big hugs,
Tina and Jasper

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am sorry, but maybe, just maybe there could be the chance it won't come back. I am praying for you and your boys, as you have had your share of challenges the last few weeks. Stay strong Vicki, and ask God to have mercy on your babies. I am hoping for a good outcome. Blessings
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, Vicki, this is something none of us wanted to hear about our sweet Brando. I know how heavy your hearts are, the sorrow you bear, the helplessness you feel. But remember this - WE are the only one to feel these things; Brando does not know what is going on nor does he care about the future. His focus is solely on this moment. This moment with his mom whom he adores; this moment with his mouth full of good tasting foods; this moment chasing the ball; this moment with his head in your lap, your loving hand caressing his head. This moment is the end all, be all for Brando. Cherish these moments, store them carefully away like the treasures they are, be Present with Brando as much as possible. This is the best gift you can give him today and every day to come.

I hope Dr. Mike can take a look at the report and offer some insight. The info he posted above is amazing!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[beaglemom3]

Thank you all very much, I am saddened beyond words I don't think I can take anymore bad news about my boys at this point.

Dr. Mike..from Brando's biopsy report, do you think he is a good candidate for radiation therapy? and am I reading the information about the lateral margin correctly? Hopefully I am not.

[drmvz]

Sorry, brando had a mass removed off an adrenal and that's the hemangiopericytoma or the mass from his abdomen turned out to be the hemangiopericytoma?

[beaglemom3]

Hi Dr. Mike Brando had the mass removed from the abdomen(right upper flank area) and turned out to be a hemangiopericytoma. His biopsy report is here.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4b1v8wlk8v...annybiopsy.pdf

thanks so much

[drmvz]

yes read that in the report and was confused because I thought you were already told it was just a benign lipoma...
do you remember the first time you noticed the mass? size then and size prior to removal? just trying to get idea of the growth rate?
you are reading correctly about the lateral margins probably being "dirty"
How old is brando?

[beaglemom3]

the lipoma was on the side of his penis, which he removed a large part of it but he had the malignant mass, in that same area outside his body. I noticed the mass when it was small but thought It was another lipoma both my boys are full of them, I think beagles are prone to them. But then I didn't like the color of the skin over it, even when it looked like an inside of the body lipoma but I noticed it outside his body maybe 2 weeks before I showed it to my vet, the boys have been at the vet recently so many times and none of us noticed it. when he had his echo cardiogram in November, the vet, sonographer and me did not notice it.
Brando will be 14 God willing in about 2 weeks March 17th
I have a picture of it prior to removal

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ahbbabtrw8ixdbg/2014-02-05%2017.38.17.jpg

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Brando most assuredly will be here to turn 14, my heart just breaks for you, but maybe Brando will get a miracle. We have to keep the hope alive, so Vicki hang in there as hard as it is, maybe something good will happen. Blessings

[drmvz]

have you talked to your vet about radiation? I would think brando would be a candidate for it. I am sure you have read up on brandos options. Have you given thought to just monitoring and see how fast or slow it recurs?

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I read it takes between 6 to 12 months for one to grow back, and that radiation works well and only affects that exact area so the dog does not usually get sick. It said it works 80 to 90 % of the time. I am sure you have seen all this Vicki, but for those who haven't I posted it. It also was said not to metasticise. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

have you talked to your vet about radiation? I would think brando would be a candidate for it. I am sure you have read up on brandos options. Have you given thought to just monitoring and see how fast or slow it recurs?

Thanks! Dr. Mike, not yet I see him on Friday to have Brando's staples removed and we will discuss it then.

I am kind of afraid to just monitor it and miss the opportunity for radiation, it did seem to grow awfully fast to me.

But I will consider all options carefully, thank you so much for your input it is greatly appreciated!

[beaglemom3]

Thank you so much Patti, I am praying for a miracle too! and yes I did see that which to me it is awful fast for reoccurrence.

[drmvz]

Thanks! Dr. Mike, not yet I see him on Friday to have Brando's staples removed and we will discuss it then.

I am kind of afraid to just monitor it and miss the opportunity for radiation, it did seem to grow awfully fast to me.

But I will consider all options carefully, thank you so much for your input it is greatly appreciated!

if your thinking it was growing rapidly then leaning toward radiation for sure. I will be sure to check in on Friday to see what your doc has to say.

[Trish]

Sorry cannot read that report! So will just send my best wishes you get good feedback from your vet on Friday, glad he is feeling good! x

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am praying with my Tipper for some good news on your babies. Please give them hugs and kisses from Tipper and I. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Thinking of you and the boys on this very cold morning. I hope all is going well. You have an appointment tomorrow at the vets right? Keep the faith, GOD does give miracles. I would like nothing more than for your boys to get one, you are all deserving of it. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

if your thinking it was growing rapidly then leaning toward radiation for sure. I will be sure to check in on Friday to see what your doc has to say.

Thank you I so appreciate your input.

[beaglemom3]

Sorry cannot read that report! So will just send my best wishes you get good feedback from your vet on Friday, glad he is feeling good! x

Thanks so much Trish I will post tomorrow about our vet visit

[beaglemom3]

Thanks you so much Patti, I will surely post what happens tomorrow. I did start Brando on the maritime pine bark (anti cancer)that I have for Snuggles.
I am going to email both herbalists and see what they feel I should be giving Brando.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Thinking of you today and hoping that you vet appointment goes well and you get some good news. Praying for your boys.
Patti

[molly muffin]

Checking in to see how things went today and what the word is.

Thinking of you and your guys.
hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Hi everyone I just got home, was a long cold day. We had to go over to my dad and help him with some things, he called us while we were at the vet.

First thank you all for caring about my boys you are all so very special.
Brando had his 50 staples removed. The vet said he did better than most during the surgery and after and is healing beautifully.

We all decided that this coming Wednesday at 5 PM both of my boys will have their MRI's done.
For Brando we can tell better what is in his adrenal gland that the sonographer saw, and see if this tumor that was just removed metastasized at all(I pray to God not) and then make a decision about radiation etc or not depending on what the MRI shows. They will be giving them both contrast and look at them from head to toe.

For Snugs this MRI will tell a lot more about his pheo, and how close it really is to that big vein and he will be checked from head to toe as well, and depending what it shows, whether to go ahead with that surgery or not.

Trish a question for you, when Flynn had his MRI, did he need to go on bp meds for it? My vet doesn't think Snugs needs to for the MRI but he will be monitored very closely as will Brando and they will use Propofol (I think that is what he said) and wake him up fast if need be, he said he has everything at the MRI facility as he does in his operating room and surgical area in the vet hospital.

Both boys are doing well at the moment and acting like puppies. I love that about them I pray they can act like this and be with me for a long time to come.

[molly muffin]

There is nothing like having a plan to put into action to make you feel better, so I hope that this plan has helped you.

It should give you the answers you need to make the decisions you need to make. You just have to have the facts to do that kind of decision making.

Not sure exactly when Trish will pop in to see this, as she is off to Auckland with her BFF to attend a Bruce Springsteen concert. Lucky girl :) I'm sure she will comment when she gets a chance though.

So glad the boys are playing like they are puppies. Brando really has made a very good recovery. Awesome if there has been no metastasizing there.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
You have had a very long day. Give the boys hugs and kisses from Tipper and I.
You know what you are going to do, so that will certainly help ease stress. Now we wait together with you until the MRI's next week. It will work out Vicki, just keep the faith. Praying for you and your boys.
Patti

[beaglemom3]

There is nothing like having a plan to put into action to make you feel better, so I hope that this plan has helped you.

It should give you the answers you need to make the decisions you need to make. You just have to have the facts to do that kind of decision making.

Not sure exactly when Trish will pop in to see this, as she is off to Auckland with her BFF to attend a Bruce Springsteen concert. Lucky girl :) I'm sure she will comment when she gets a chance though.

So glad the boys are playing like they are puppies. Brando really has made a very good recovery. Awesome if there has been no metastasizing there.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly muffin

Thank you Sharlene, you are right about having a plan and it helping me to know what the next steps should be but at the same time I am pretty nervous about the information I will be getting on Snuggles pheo and Brando's cancer.

[beaglemom3]

Vicki:
You have had a very long day. Give the boys hugs and kisses from Tipper and I.
You know what you are going to do, so that will certainly help ease stress. Now we wait together with you until the MRI's next week. It will work out Vicki, just keep the faith. Praying for you and your boys.
Patti

Thanks so much Patti for your positive words and prayers. It is so appreciated.

[doxiesrock912]

Wow Vicki!
So much going on for you and the boy!

Praying that you have the best news possible for both of them!

[Trish]

Hi Vicki

Popping in re your MRI question. Flynn had a CT prior to his adrenalectomy. He was placed on BP meds early on, because of his hypertension at initial presentation. Initially benzapril, but then once they thought the pheo diagnosis more likely they swapped him to phenoxybenzamine, he had been on the drugs a few weeks prior to the CT. They also made sure there was a specialist anaesthetist in attendance for his anaesthetic for the scan, as you know with pheo's they can spike and more likely during anaesthetic. Flynn's BP was still high even on the day of scan, I just checked back on his thread and I reported it was up to 200 that day. They put his dose of BP meds up immediately following his CT and he had surgery a week later once it had come down.

If they are still thinking pheo I would be wanting a specialist anaesthetist there in case anything went wrong with his BP. I know they are few and far between in NZ, so hope you have better access to them where you are.

Hope that helps and good luck with both the boys!! Hope Brando is feeling even better xx

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am thinking today is the day for your boys MRI appointments?? I am hoping you get some concrete answers from this. I have been thinking of you and your boys all nite. I pray that you get some good news today. I would be looking for an anestheiologist who is a Dr.that practices anesthesiology instead of an anestistist which is generally a nurse with a degree. Thinking of you all. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Hi Vicki

Popping in re your MRI question. Flynn had a CT prior to his adrenalectomy. He was placed on BP meds early on, because of his hypertension at initial presentation. Initially benzapril, but then once they thought the pheo diagnosis more likely they swapped him to phenoxybenzamine, he had been on the drugs a few weeks prior to the CT. They also made sure there was a specialist anaesthetist in attendance for his anaesthetic for the scan, as you know with pheo's they can spike and more likely during anaesthetic. Flynn's BP was still high even on the day of scan, I just checked back on his thread and I reported it was up to 200 that day. They put his dose of BP meds up immediately following his CT and he had surgery a week later once it had come down.

If they are still thinking pheo I would be wanting a specialist anaesthetist there in case anything went wrong with his BP. I know they are few and far between in NZ, so hope you have better access to them where you are.

Hope that helps and good luck with both the boys!! Hope Brando is feeling even better xx

Thanks Trish, Did Flynn have contrast with his MRI? I am not sure who will be administering the anesthesia he did say they will giving him a little at a time throughout the mri and if anything they can reverse it quickly or wake him up immediately. I don't know if that suffices. I am scared.

[beaglemom3]

Vicki:
I am thinking today is the day for your boys MRI appointments?? I am hoping you get some concrete answers from this. I have been thinking of you and your boys all nite. I pray that you get some good news today. I would be looking for an anestheiologist who is a Dr.that practices anesthesiology instead of an anestistist which is generally a nurse with a degree. Thinking of you all. Blessings
Patti

Hi Patti, nope it is tomorrow at 5PM I am so nervous about it, I hope my vet knows what he is doing pertaining to Snugs pheo and anesthesia. I emailed the specialist in Manhattan and she said this:
"There is a risk that the adrenaline hormones can be released during anesthesia, although that is unlikely. I think it should be safe. Perhaps it will give us more information."

[molly muffin]

It does sound like they are aware of the risks and think that it is manageable.
Keep calm and deep breaths. It will be better once this is over with and you have more answers.

Breath, Breath
now HUG
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Thanks so much Sharlene I hope you all are right and I hope I am not making a mistake with Snuggles, he is doing so well atm and if something happens to him due to this MRI I could never live with myself. I just spoke with my vet he said there will be 3 doctors and him and a tech and he has everything there in case of emergencies like his operating room, but does he know enough about pheos is my worry if an emergency should happen. I know I am driving myself crazy with this.

[molly muffin]

I would be driving myself crazy too Vicki. No doubt about it. You just can't help worrying about it.

hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

We are with you and the boys today, Vicki. Let us know how things went when you can.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I would be feeling the very same way as you. God will be watching your precious babies today and everything will be alright. I am praying for them, and your Dr.seems to know what he is doing. We are praying for some good news for you.You and your hubby have had an rough road lately and are due for some good news. I hope both tumors have just gone away. I will be thinking of all of you today. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks you Leslie, Sharlene and Patti I keep thinking if the periodic utlrasounds are enough to tell about Snuggles Pheo, I know the MRI will give more information, but is it worth the risk, I am still tormenting over it.

What would you all do if it were your dog?

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
That is a difficult question. With Tipper when they found the tumor on the adrenal, with her symptoms the first thing that entered my mind was pheo. I wrestled with the idea of taking her to the hospital and having her sedated to find out. Did I really want to know?? Finally I decided it was important for me to know what was going on inside of her in the event of an emergency, how would they know what to do if we did not know what was going on. That scared me and I am always proactive about everything, so I knew I could not stand it if I did not know and was unable to make a plan. I was so glad I did, it calmed my mind knowing what was ahead of us, and if there was an emergency we would know what is going on with Tipper. I feel for you because I know how I struggled with this. It is a bit easier for me now that everyone says it is not a pheo. I know the worries about putting a dog under that has one. Unfortunately there is no easy answer. What does the Dr.think about using the ultrasound ? Maybe if it is easy to view and measure using the US then I would probably opt for that as a periodic check. Only if the Dr. Is sure that is adequate though. God Bless you Vicki my heart goes out to you.
Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Patti that helped, my Vet feels the MRI would give us valuable information, I never asked if he or the specialist thought the US is enough to go by.

But I assume it isn't since he feels the MRI would help us find out more info as the specialist said.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am thinking of you and the boys. I am still praying for a miracle.
Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

I'll be checking in this evening, as it is after 5pm and that's when the MRI's were scheduled for.

Hoping all is well.
hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Hi everyone we just got home. It's after 10 pm. I'm on my ipad didn't turn on PC yet. All went well! They got tons of images and info which they are sending to a top radiologist to look it over and write the official report. Snugs was under for over an hour! I was so nervous but my vet gave us updates about every 15 minutes. They had about 8 people involved doing this. My vet told me as soon as we got there they are treating him as if he was having the pheo surgery gave him blood pressure lowering drugs etc. etc. (I wish he had mentioned this to me before but so glad that was his plan)
The tumor is smaller than on last ultrasound! Last ultrasound measured at 3.55cm MRI measurement was 3cm and the best news is it is totally inside the gland.
I will get a more full report in a few days. They think it may be non functional but not sure and no metastasis!

Snugs MRI took so long we will do Brannys another time. Thank you all for your prayers they worked!

[molly muffin]

Oh my god Vicki that is wonderful news.


Now get some rest!! You must all be exhausted.

Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

WONDERFUL news! WOOHOO!! Way to go Mom and Snugs! :cool::cool::cool::cool:

[Tina]

Oh Vicki, I am so relieved and happy to read this news!!! So happy for you and Snugs!!! :D :D

Hugs,
Tina and Jasper

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am so happy reading your post this morning. You have truly been blessed with
a miracle. I am counting on Brando having the same kind of good news. It turns out the MRI was the best choice after all. You can take a deep sigh now and let out some of that stress. You deserve every bit of this good news, and I hope there is more to come. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thank you all so much! Yes I am wiped out today and so is Snugs and Brannny. Branny was shaking the whole time Snugs was being tested, my poor baby he was so frightened. I am not sure if he was frightened for Snuggie to be okay or for what might be in store for him.
Snugs is tired but acting great when awake. I guess he needs to get rid of all that is left in him from last night.

[doxiesrock912]

Vicki!

WONDERFUL!!!!!!!
I am so happy for your and Snugs!!!

[beaglemom3]

Thank you Valerie :)

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
The temperature is going up today so enjoy a worry free day with the boys. Have
you scheduled Brando? Are they still saying this is a pheo? Is it less likely to cause trouble inside? That is miraculous that the tumor is smaller. I wonder if it is the herbs you are giving? I wish I could afford an MRI for Tipper, it gives a much better image of the tumor, and it's involvement. Enjoy your day, you deserve it. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Vicki:
The temperature is going up today so enjoy a worry free day with the boys. Have
you scheduled Brando? Are they still saying this is a pheo? Is it less likely to cause trouble inside? That is miraculous that the tumor is smaller. I wonder if it is the herbs you are giving? I wish I could afford an MRI for Tipper, it gives a much better image of the tumor, and it's involvement. Enjoy your day, you deserve it. Blessings
Patti

hehe I hope to Patti, I do feel a bit relaxed after the MRI and hearing the preliminary report.

My vet left the next day to go out of town so Branny doesn't have a date yet I would assume it is next week some time, but I will speak to him when he is back in town which I think will be Monday.

The smaller measurement is either due to the ultrasound is not as accurate as the MRI or the herbal medicines are working a miracle.
I checked the last ultrasound and it was measured at 3.6 cm not 3.55 and the MRI measurement is 3 cm, either way I am thrilled but I am kinda hoping it is the herbal meds and we can get ti even smaller.

My vet did say the sonographer who did the last 4D ultrasound on Snugs (she was at the MRI too there was a lot of people there for my boy :) ) told him it looked smaller than it looked on the ultrasound, so I dunno but I am praying hard it will be even smaller next time around.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am praying these herbal medicines are helping shrink this tumor, and that they will keep shrinking it. Enjoy the nice sunny day today. Give the boys a hug and kiss from Tipper and I. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Patti! not sunny here though and a bit cold but so glad it is sunny and a bit warmer where you are so Tipper can enjoy her walks today!

[Trish]

Very happy to read this Vicki!! Glad it all went well with Snugs MRI. So if they are saying it is possibly non functional that's the pheo diagnosis out the window? If it is a non-functional mass or adenoma then they can live with those for a long time!! They think Flynn's mass in his other adrenal is benign too, that is great you have got that good news. It will be interesting to hear the formal report when it comes in.

I hope Brando's goes just as well when he has his done! Have a good weekend you guys, your heart must have lifted a lot to get that news xx

[beaglemom3]

Hi Trish, I think they believe it is a pheo but there is such a thing as a non functional pheo, but they are not sure about that when I spoke to my vet, he said possibly, while Snugs was waking up after the MRI.
Hopefully I will get more info on that after the radiologist looks at it.

Thank you for your good wishes about Brando and yes my heart is lifted right now :). xxxx

[beaglemom3]

I have been quiet because I was kicked in the stomach again by a phone call last Monday (March 10th) with the written report results of Snuggles MRI.

The preliminary findings were told to us right after the MRI was done while Snuggie was waking up.
The tumor was smaller than seen on the 4D Ultrasound and no invasion of blood vessels or the vena cava. (This was all seen w/o contrast)

Monday our vet called with the written report results by the radiologist that included the images with contrast (the tumor is indeed smaller than measured on the ultrasound BUT:


HISTORY: MRl Study
MRI EXAMS 1 Exam
canine dog with pheochromocytoma 3.2cm
ABDOMINAL MRI March 5, 2014: A pre-and post-contrast sequences are presented for evaluation.

FINDINGS: There is severe motion artifact on this study. There is a moderately sized heterogeneously contrast-enhancing mass involving the right adrenal gland. This mass causes mild to moderate compression of the caudal vena cava and on multiple images there is a slight increased intensity within the caudal vena cava in this region. There are no significant abnormalities of the visible liver, right or left kidney, left adrenal gland, spleen, gastrointestinal tract, or urinary bladder. There is no evidence of peritoneal effusion or lymphadenopathy.

CONCLUSIONS: Right adrenal mass consistent with the history of pheochromocytoma. Suspect mild invasion into the caudal vena cava.

I have been sick to my stomach over this, I had such relief those few days thinking we are still safe.

Brando had his MRI this past Wednesday and we are waiting on the report.

I hope everyone and their furbabies are well.

[molly muffin]

Oh Vicki! I'm sorry this must make you feel just sick to your stomach. :( I'm sorry it wasn't a better report.

Mild invasion into the vena cava. Trish went through this too with her Flynn, so she might have some good feed back for you.

Does this mean that you want to do the surgery or do they have any kind of prognosis as to what this will mean going forward? Have you spoken to the IMS, vet, surgeon since this MRI report came back.

When is Brando's report expected back? What did they say preliminary about his MRI?

Sending you tons of hugs and love.
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I searched for your thread yesterday, and when I found it I decided not to post. I just knew something was wrong. I am so very sorry you and your babies do not deserve this. I had such high hopes after the MRI and thought things seemed better than we thought. I wish there was something I could do or say that would help. I continue to pray for you and your boys. Is there an type of plan in the works, or too early to think of that? You have really had enough heartache. I prayfor something good to happen. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Oh Vicki! I'm sorry this must make you feel just sick to your stomach. :( I'm sorry it wasn't a better report.

Mild invasion into the vena cava. Trish went through this too with her Flynn, so she might have some good feed back for you.

Does this mean that you want to do the surgery or do they have any kind of prognosis as to what this will mean going forward? Have you spoken to the IMS, vet, surgeon since this MRI report came back.

When is Brando's report expected back? What did they say preliminary about his MRI?

Sending you tons of hugs and love.
Sharlene and Molly muffin

Thanks Sharlene, Snuggles is still acting fine and so far his bp has been normal as well.

My local vet says not to do the surgery, the IMS says she does not know what the right answer is, Here is her response:
This is a tough decision. With the invasion into the vena cava, that does make the surgery more complicated. I still think the surgery is possible, but I would definitely worry about bleeding. However, since the tumor is growing, at some point it is going to cause him a problem.

I'm not sure of the right answer. I think if you want to do surgery, now is the time. I would not wait and reconsider surgery down the road, as the tumor will just continue to grow. I still think there is value in having you meet with the surgeon and get their perspective. If the surgeon thinks this is too risky, then you will have your answer.

Hope that helps.

I spoke to the other specialist, who practices integrated medicine and prescribed the Chinese herbal meds for Snugs and she wants to recheck him and see if anything changed when examining him, she examines his tongue and other things to give her information. and depending what she sees she may prescribe additional herbal medicine. So I made an appointment to take Snugs and Brando to see her.

Snuggles is almost 15 years old. To put him through that type of major surgery at this age worries me a lot along with the high risk factors of the surgery itself.

I am leaning towards following my vets advice and not doing the surgery and hope and pray the herbal medicines will shrink the tumor or at the very least stop it from growing anymore.

It was very encouraging that the tumor is smaller than measured on the 4D ultrasound and it could have been mildly invading the vena cava for awhile and we just did not know it since the mri images w/o contrast did not even show it so the ultrasound might have not been showing it as well. Of course this is speculation, but it is something to consider.

I am hoping to get Brando's written report Monday, tomorrow.

[Squirt's Mom]

For me, age would certainly be a factor but before I made a final decision, I would want to talk to the surgeon who would do the surgery should I choose that path. I would want to hear what he has to say since HE is the expert in surgeries and HE is the one who has such experience. Then I would make the final decision based on the surgeon's thoughts and my own feelings about my baby's chances either way.

It hit me like a lead balloon in the gut when I read your report. :( My thoughts and prayers are with you all, sending healing energies for Snugs and Brando.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[beaglemom3]

Vicki:
I searched for your thread yesterday, and when I found it I decided not to post. I just knew something was wrong. I am so very sorry you and your babies do not deserve this. I had such high hopes after the MRI and thought things seemed better than we thought. I wish there was something I could do or say that would help. I continue to pray for you and your boys. Is there an type of plan in the works, or too early to think of that? You have really had enough heartache. I prayfor something good to happen. Blessings
Patti

Thanks Patti your prayers are appreciated and needed.
As in my response to Sharlene, I am leaning towards not doing the surgery, Snuggles is almost 15 years old, for a beagle that's a ripe old age although he still thinks he's a puppy and I am not telling him anything different. To put him through such major surgery at this age would be very hard on his sweet little body and the high risk of the surgery a huge factor.

I hope and am praying hard all the herbal medicines I am giving him help keep this tumor in check and stops it from growing anymore and at best, shrinks it.

I don't want to lose him, he is so full of energy and life and makes my life incredibly better.

[beaglemom3]

For me, age would certainly be a factor but before I made a final decision, I would want to talk to the surgeon who would do the surgery should I choose that path. I would want to hear what he has to say since HE is the expert in surgeries and HE is the one who has such experience. Then I would make the final decision based on the surgeon's thoughts and my own feelings about my baby's chances either way.

It hit me like a lead balloon in the gut when I read your report. :( My thoughts and prayers are with you all, sending healing energies for Snugs and Brando.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

Thanks Leslie, I probably will schedule a consultation with a surgeon, probably the one I saw initially. But my gut instinct is telling me don't put him through this at this age. But it could just be my fear speaking to me.
We so appreciate your prayers.

Just a note to explain part of my hesitancy about the surgery: A beagle life expectancy is 12-15 years, the average is 13 yrs old..although I know some beagles that lived to 17 and 18 but that is not too common.

[Squirt's Mom]

I understand completely about the age aspect. My Squirt is 16 now and she will face no more procedures unless it becomes necessary to have the vet help release her. She has been to her last vet visit in this life for anything else. ;)

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I totally understand where you are coming from. Tipper is only onlyntwelve and a half, but with her trachael issues among others I could not do it to her either. There comes a time when you cannot expect your baby to keep undergoing more and more, and that is where we are. Tipper has had enough, I can't expect anymore from her. Unless we have an emergency situation regarding this tumor I am not doing any procedure. Tipper's breed lives from 17 to 18 years, so I definitely feel cheated. It seems you put out 1 fire and 2 more start. I am praying the herbs work and the tumor shrinks. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

That's one big thing that is killing me inside, Snugs does not act old has no other real health issues as you can see on the MRI report all his organs are good, he is full of energy and life and mischievous, and this damn tumor is going to rob him and me in a big way to live of good years he should have left, I think he would if it weren't for this cursed tumor.

It makes me so very very angry.

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Vicki,

I sorry that I have no words of wisdom to share, but I will be keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers.

Love and hugs, Lori

[molly muffin]

That would kill me too Vicki. :( I don't know what the answer is either. I understand not wanting to put a 15 year old though too much too.
It does break your heart, but you can see what the surgeon says and keep up with the herbs. There really isn't much else that you can do at this point other than that. Hope it doesn't continue to progress into the vena cava.

hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Thank you Lori and Sharlene and Leslie I understand what you are doing and support your decision, as much as we want them with us as long as we are around, their comfort and well being come first.

My prayers are with you and Squirt and with all our furbabies.

[doxiesrock912]

Vicki,
I'm hoping that the IMS has a better prognosis for you!
We'll be praying over here.

[Trish]

HI Vicki

So sorry to read the latest on Snugs. It is such a conundrum, especially when he is so good. I felt just like you when I found out Flynn's was invading his vena cava. I really had to weigh up the pluses and minuses when considering if we would go through with the operation. Snugs has a few pluses, he is not symptomatic, he has no other significant comorbidities. Unlike Flynny who had BP issues, liver issues, IBD, renal issues and he was symptomatic from the pheo esp with his BP, eyes and proteinuria. But he was younger, 11, when this happened. I was lucky with my surgeon I think, he was optimistic through it all and told me the vena cava part of surgery was a bit more fiddly for him but he was still positive he could do it. Now here we are 16 months postop and I am so glad I had it done. I honestly do not know what I would do in your shoes, I would be more hesitant with the age thing but I would still like to hear the surgeons take on it and get their recommendations. Feel for you so sending big hugs xxxx

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Thinking of you and the boys this morning. This has to be terribly torturous to know and think of this daily. I know everyday I think of my Tipper's and it scares me to death about what could happen, so I know how this can eat away at you. You are one strong lady to get thru all you have. It's a shame our beloved babies fate is manipulated by this awful disease. I cannot even phathom Tipper not in my life. I am praying the herbs shrink this tumor. I wish I could take away this pain you feel. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Just sending you a note Vicki to let you know I'm thinking of you and the boys.

hugs
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am thinking and praying for all of you too. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thank you all so much for your support, caring and prayers. It has been a most difficult time for me.

Today is Brando's 14th Birthday! and as a birthday present we received good MRI results, for the most part but not all as you will see. I sure hope my Branny does not have Cushings or God forbid a pheo

HISTORY: MRlStudy
MRI EXAME 1 EXAM
History of liver disease
Enlarged right adrenal gland
Thickening of bladder wall
ABDOMINAL MRI March 12, 2014: A pre and post contrast MRI is presented for interpretation.

FINDINGS: The right adrenal gland ls mildly enlarged measuring approximately 0.87 cm. There is no vascular invasion,
The left adrenal is within normal limits measuring approximately 0.47 cm. The Liver is within normal limits. On the Contrast study there is overall poor contrast enhancement and given the overall poor contrast enhancement the enhancement of the liver is thought to be within normal limits. There are no nodules or masses seen. The urinary bladder ys not entirely included on this study. There are no significant splenic, renal, or other significant Intra-abdominal abnormalities. There la no evidence of lymphadenopathy. There is mild spondylitis along the lumbar spine.

CONCLUSIONS: Mild right adrenomagaly. The primary differential is Cushing’s disease though a carcinoma or early pheochtomocytoma cannot entirely be excluded. Otherwise unremarkable abdominal MRl.
RECOMMENDATIONS: Given the reported history or liver disease and sampling for cytology is recommended.
Monitoring of the right adrenal gland sonographically should be considered. Given the history of a thickened urinary bladder wall sonography and if not already performed urinalysis is recommended.

[molly muffin]

That isn't that bad of an MRI report Vicki.

Happy Birthday Brando!!! whooo hoooo 14 years!

I'd monitor the right adrenal as suggested and make sure it doesn't grow or become an issue.

Not a bad day though. :)

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Please give Brando a big hug and kiss from Tipper and I and tell him we will be waiting to celebrate his 15 th. Happy Birthday Brando and wishing you many more! There are miracles, keep the faith Vicki you are a fantastic mom of these wonderful boys. Blessings
Pattii

[Squirt's Mom]

Happy 14th Birthday, Brando!

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Patti and Sharlene, Brando says Aroooooooooooo which means thank you in beagle talk lol

The good part of the MRI besides most of his organs looking good is that no metastasis from that soft tissue tumor they removed.

I will definitely keep an eye on that right adrenal gland with ultrasounds, it would just be too too cruel for it to be a pheo.

[beaglemom3]

Aww thank you Leslie!

[Harley PoMMom]

Happy Birthday, Brando!!

[Trish]

AROOOOOO ARRR ARR AROOOOOO YIP YIP BRANDO!!!!

That is beagle talk for Happy Birthday you good boy!! Hope you have steak for your dinner!! xxxx

[doxiesrock912]

Bark bark bark Brando!

[beaglemom3]

I told Brando of all your birthday wishes and he says
THANK AROOOOOOOOOOOOO!

and of course I thank you all too!

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Thinking of all of you. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Patti,
I am in a bit of confusion and worry right now besides the issues you all know of.

A study came out and seems it has been known before that anti oxidants cause cancer cells to grow faster. OH Geez. I have been giving my boys the maritime pine bark which is a powerful anti oxidant to help shrink the tumor and stop any cancer from spreading, now I may have been hurting my boys not helping them!

The studies have been done with vitamins like E and selenium among others and maritime pine bark is a plant, I hope that makes a difference.
Like I really needed this ;(
I emailed the herbalist that prescribed it and I am waiting for an response.

[Squirt's Mom]

WOW that is the exact opposite of what I have been taught about antioxidants! Is this study saying they do not have an effect on free radicals? Do you have a link to the study?

[molly muffin]

I definitely want to see the study too. Leslie, you could check with the Herb group and see if they have heard anything?

I've never head that anitoxidants could increase cancer cell growth before either. Of course we learn new things all the time too.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20140129/could-antioxidants-speed-up-cancer-progression

Could Antioxidants Speed Up Cancer Progression?
Study of mice suggests people with lung cancer or at risk for the disease should avoid these supplements

WEDNESDAY, Jan. 29, 2014 (HealthDay News) -- Smokers and other people at high risk for lung cancer could make matters worse if they take antioxidant supplements, a new study of rodents suggests.

Antioxidants appear to accelerate cancer progression by short-circuiting one of the body's key immune responses to malignant cells, researchers from Sweden report.Normal doses of vitamin E and smaller doses of the antioxidant supplement acetylcysteine increased the growth of tumors in mice with early lung cancer, the researchers reported in the Jan. 29 issue of Science Translational Medicine.

"We found that antioxidants caused a threefold increase in the number of tumors, and caused tumors to become more aggressive," senior author Dr. Martin Bergo said during a Tuesday news conference. "Antioxidants caused the mice to die twice as fast, and the effect was dose-dependent. If we gave a small dose, tumors grew a little. If we gave a high dose, tumors grew a lot."


Bergo, co-director of the Sahlgrenska Cancer Center at the University of Gothenburg, said the findings are particularly concerning because acetylcysteine is used to improve breathing in patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, or COPD. Most people who have COPD are current or former smokers.

Antioxidants are supposed to protect the body from disease by preventing cell damage caused by molecules called free radicals. "These radicals can damage almost anything inside the cell, including DNA, and DNA damage can lead to cancer," Bergo said.

But this protection backfires in people who already have cancerous or precancerous cells, the researchers said.

When the body detects cellular DNA damage that can lead to cancer, it releases a key tumor-suppressing protein called p53.

In laboratory tests with mouse and human cancer cells, researchers found that antioxidants suppress the release of p53 by halting DNA damage done to cancer cells by free radicals.

"By reducing the DNA damage, the antioxidant actually helps the cancer cells escape detection," co-author Per Lindahl, a professor of biochemistry and cell biology at the University of Gothenburg, said in the news conference.

The findings suggest that people carrying small undiagnosed tumors in their lungs should avoid taking extra antioxidants, the study concludes.

"If you have lung cancer, or if you have an increased risk of developing lung cancer, then taking extra antioxidants may be harmful and it could speed up the growth of a tumor," Bergo said.

While studies involving animals can be useful, they may fail to produce similar results in humans.

However, this isn't the first study to indicate that antioxidants are bad for cancer patients, said Peter Campbell, director of the Tumor Repository at the American Cancer Society.

Human trials conducted in the 1980s and 1990s found that the antioxidants beta-carotene, vitamin A and vitamin E substantially increased the incidence of lung cancer in smokers, he said.

"This study doesn't stick out like a sore thumb," Campbell said. "We've known for some time that some of these agents tend to backfire. It's nice to have laboratory evidence to corroborate what we've seen in human populations."

The human body creates its own antioxidants, and is built to use additional antioxidants gained from the food a person eats, Campbell said. By taking antioxidant supplements, people could be defeating the body's ability to fight cancer and disease.

"There is a food supplement industry that has done a really good job marketing itself, suggesting that if we take these molecules normally found in food we will have better health and, well, a little is good so a whole lot would be better," Campbell said. "There are very intricate, complicated pathways that are supposed to sense and signal and destroy these precancerous cells. When our body doesn't turn that system on, these cancerous cells can proliferate."

However, the Swedish researchers stopped short of saying that no one should take antioxidants.

"If I had a patient with lung cancer, I would probably recommend they do not take extra antioxidants," Bergo said. "Would I make that recommendation with healthy people? Absolutely not."

[beaglemom3]

it says in this article above that this isn't new

"This study doesn't stick out like a sore thumb," Campbell said. "We've known for some time that some of these agents tend to backfire. It's nice to have laboratory evidence to corroborate what we've seen in human populations."

[Squirt's Mom]

They keep referencing "lung cancer". I wonder if this applies to all types of cancers anywhere in the body? Interesting.

[beaglemom3]

There are other studies involving anti oxidants and colon cancer and skin cancer as well.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
What did you read about the Vitamin E??? I give it to Tipper daily so I am wanting to know since it was mentioned in the study?? Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Patti it is in the study I posted:

Antioxidants appear to accelerate cancer progression by short-circuiting one of the body's key immune responses to malignant cells, researchers from Sweden report. Normal doses of vitamin E and smaller doses of the antioxidant supplement acetylcysteine increased the growth of tumors in mice with early lung cancer, the researchers reported in the Jan. 29 issue of Science Translational Medicine

[beaglemom3]

I heard back from the herbalist that prescribed the maritime pine bark, this was his response:

"In answer to your questions from today and yesterday. I was speaking with Cath and she said the studies were done on isolates not the actual herb Maritime Pine Bark. Also the use of Maritime Pine Bark is not just for it's anti-oxidant properties but it is the whole herb which has anti-cancer properties, when used as a liquid extract there are a number of ways that the Maritime Pine Bark works within the body to fight the cancer and support the immune system. We can only say from our experience that we have had more successful cases when using the Cancer Support herbs with the maritime Pine bark than what we have had using the cancer support herbs on there own."

I feel better about the maritime pine bark now

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Nothing is ever easy is it? You have to be thinking all the time when you are doing something with these Cush babies. Hoping the boys have a good day. Blessings
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

...the studies were done on isolates not the actual herb Maritime Pine Bark. Also the use of Maritime Pine Bark is not just for it's anti-oxidant properties but it is the whole herb...

The bolded parts in the quote above are critical when understanding how herbs work VS the typical Western approach to drugs. In Western medicine, and subsequently Western studies on plant medicine, we isolate certain constituents and focus on that alone. What this does is remove the full impact of the herb. In Herbalism, even Western Herbalism, we look at the whole plant, all the constituents and actions of that plant...and the energetics contained in that plant which all work together for the full effect.

Western medicine addresses treating symptoms - you take X for fever. In herbal medicine we look at the whole picture - diet, lifestyle, environment, health issues, and so on then treat the whole being. We don't look for something to make the fever go away; we look for what is allowing the fever to occur and address those issues. This may include things to boost the immune system or purify the blood or heal the gut flora - things we don't usually think about when we have a fever.

The herbal group has not had much to say on this yet other than to repeat my initial thought - this only mentions lung cancer. If other thoughts are posted, I will share them here.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Patti,,,Thanks Leslie, I do feel a lot better now about the maritme pine bark and I appreciate the information, it helps.

For those with dogs or cats with diabetes you might be interested in this

FDA Approves First Insulin Automatic Injection Pen for Diabetic Dogs and Cats
http://animalendocrine.blogspot.com/2014/03/fda-approves-first-insulin-automatic.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Thinking of you and the boys and saying prayers for you all. Stay strong you are doing fantastic holding all of this together. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thank you Patti I so appreciate your messages and words of encouragement. HUGS

[molly muffin]

That is great about that diabetes pen. So glad they are thinking of the animals and people who have to give the injections too.

That is good that the dietician was able to reassure you about the pine bark. Especially since it's possible the tumor has already shrunk.

Now don't forget to plan to do something fun and relaxing with the boys this weekend. At least one thing a weekend, to relieve the stress. :) :)

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

hehe thanks Sharlene I so appreciate your support and kindess. I had a lot of fun with my boys today, since Snugs was diagnosed with the pheo tumor back in October I have been giving them a new toy every day, I am still doing it, most of the time Branny is not interested and Snugs just wants to rip the stuffings out lol but todays toy was a big red soft chicken with squeakers in its feet and a voice box in its belly making chicken sounds lol

Well Snugs seemed to have adopted it as his baby LOL he sleeps with it with his paw around it and God help anyone who goes near it LMAO it is so funny and so cute. I had to use one of those grabbers, the long reachy things to get it away from him for the night or I would get my hand taken off lol, I don't like them to have toys when they are unattended.

He's my little goofball who fills my life with so much joy and laughter and my poor sweet lovable branny got yelled at so many times for going even remotely near his chicken baby lol.

[molly muffin]

Oh my gawd that is so funny! Snuggs is adorable.

Susan will have to tell you about Palmers duck sometime. (Susan is Angel Palmer and Bailey's mum) picture here: http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/album.php?albumid=46&pictureid=2482

It is so hilarious about how they are with their toys (babies). Buddy had one too that Kathy still has.

Branny is going to have to find a baby of his own. :) :)

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Oh that picture is soo adorable! I agree it is funny and soo cute how they are with their toys.

Branny is happy to me hugged and kissed all day long, he such a sweetie pie.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
You and the boys are in my thoughts, hope you all have a good day. That is so cute about the toys. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks for thinking of us Patti!

We just got back from the vets, Snuggles needed blood work after 1 month of the herbal meds to make sure nothing is affecting him in a bad way.
His bp at the vet was low lol, so we are going with my reading trends. So far at home he is from 120's to 140's systolic and 60's to 80's diastolic and pulse rates good low normal.

I asked the herbalists about what Snugs is taking if it can keep his bp level they said it does not directly affect the bp but indirectly it should help to keep his bp from spiking...I sure hope so.

Branny has been coughing so I wanted him check and our vet examined him and said he is fine it is irritation from the tube they had to put down him from the MRI.
Also I started Branny on his herbal mixture for soft cell tumors.
And I am adding another anti cancer mixture to give to Snuggles since it is now mildly invading the vena cava.
I am tired God Bless my boys together they have the strength of 10 big dogs ..well at least it seems so to me, boy can they pull! :)

I told the vet either they are getting stronger in their old age or I am getting weaker in my old age.....
but I am not complaining I love that at their ages and given their health issues they have so much spunk, power and energy.

[Trish]

That's great news about Snugs and Brando Vicki, glad the vet visit went well. Hopefully the herbs will help them both, sounds like they are fighting fit pulling you along in their wake!! Have a good weekend x

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am hoping these herbs are going to do the job. Good to hear nothing was wrong with Branny except throat irritation. Tipper is very strong still even thru the Cushings , so I know what you mean. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

LOL Trish..thank you I hope your weekend is wonderful!

[beaglemom3]

That's great Patti! I hope the herbs are working as well, time will tell..I am keeping my fingers, toes, eyes and everything else I can cross :)

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Please read the last post or two by Iraklis on his dog Husko. He posted three links about an herb that shrinks tumors and I wanted to see if it was part of your regimine, and what you think of it?? Hope you and the boys are well. We have snow this morning and really cold temperatures. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Hi Vicki, hope you and the boys are doing well. Playing and having a good time.
The days are getting longer and there will be warm weather at some point, so that will be nice for everyone.

Thinking of you
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Thanks! Patti I will ask the integrated medical doctor I take Snugs n Branny on back April 26th but will call and ask her before then.

Hi Sharlene, my boys are doing good so far (outwardly) I was pretty sick, I guess all the stress caught up with me. I am feeling better right now but my salivary gland is clogged and huge and it is killing me. I just got back from the ENT. Also saw a different doctor a few days ago. My sinus infection seems a lot better but this gland hurts badly. But I don't have the chills and body aches I had, so that's a good thing.

I hope everyone and heir babies are doing well!

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
So sorry to hear you are not well. I know first hand how stress can bring you down. I am glad you are looking into the things Iraklis referenced, it was very interesting to me and I thought of your boys immediately upon reading about it.
I hope you get to feeling better. The salivary gland? That sounds like it could be painful. Blessings
Patti

[Trish]

Hi Vicki

Stress does such a number on us both mentally and physically. That sounds super painful so glad you are seeing the experts and hopefully starting to feel better. Give those two beagle boys a cuddle from me and hope you all have a sunny weekend xxx

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Trish! will do.

[beaglemom3]

Thank you Patti, I did some searching on that drug and it seems its either that or what I am giving Snuggles, stasis breaker. But I will definitely asking her about it.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Let me know if you find out as I am keeping it in the back of my mind in the event Tipper would need it. Hope you are feeling better, and give the boys a hug and kiss from Tipper and I. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Oh geezz Vicki I hope you are on the recovery road now and stay there.
Worry and stress sure can do a number on the bodies immune system. I think it just means the more we worry that the more we have to really concentrate on taking care of ourselves better. Maybe popping some vitamine c and other immune boosting supplements would be a good idea. (eat blueberries!) :) :)

Glad the boy are doing well.
hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Thinking of you and hoping you and the boys are doing well. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

thanks Sharlene and Patti, I am still not feeling well, been on antibiotics and warm compresses for my glands. But my boys Thank God so far so good.

I am taking vitamin C and lemon bioflavonoids on a daily basis. I guess I was so run down from everything going on I got hit hard this time.

I hope all is well with everyone and their pups. I just don't feel up to much besides taking care of my boys, so please excuse my lack of posts until I feel better.

[molly muffin]

Vicki, you just take care of yourself and the boys and don't you worry about us. We'll be right here when you feel better.
Don't mind though if we pop in from time and time and do a wellness check on ya. :)
You're real important too you know. :)

hugs, feel better soon!
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Yes like Sharlene said don't worry about us, just get yourself better. Your condition sounds painful and miserable. As long as you can be with your babies that will cheer you up! Please get well. Blessings
Patti

[doxiesrock912]

Feel better soon Vicki!

[beaglemom3]

Hi everyone oh boy it took me quite awhile to get better but I think I am. Last day of antibiotics was yesterday and ENT took an ultrasound of my glands and neck, I need to do another one in 2 months to make sure the lymph nodes did not grow anymore. Hopefully not.

I hope everyone and their pups are well. My boys so far Thank God are acting well, although we know inside of them is a different story.
Patti I did not forget about that herbal medicine you asked about I will be seeing that doctor next week with Snugs and Branny. Can you please link me to that post, I thought I saved it but I cannot find it and can't recall the name of the medicine

I just emailed the endocrinologist and ask her if waiting 3 months (which my vet said to do, which will be 2 more months from now) since Snugs last MRI to have another is waiting too long since it is mildly invading the vena cava. and I need to know when I should bring Branny for an ultrasound to see whatever is in his adrenal gland is growing etc.


Hugs and healing thoughts to all the pups!

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
It is Artemix on Iraklis and Huskos thread he tells about it. You can Google it I forget the main herbs name. I will search it and get back to you with it. Glad you are better, you had quite a lot going on so please take care and hugs to the boys.
Blessings , just looked it up it is from sweet wormwood.
Patti

[Trish]

Hi Vicki

Pleased to hear the boys are doing well and you seem to have kicked your bugs into touch too! Just in time for Spring, so you can all get out and enjoy the nice weather. xx

[Iraklis]

Vicki:
It is Artemix on Iraklis and Huskos thread he tells about it. You can Google it I forget the main herbs name. I will search it and get back to you with it. Glad you are better, you had quite a lot going on so please take care and hugs to the boys.
Blessings , just looked it up it is from sweet wormwood.
Patti

Artemix consists of Artemisinin /Artesunate /Artemether (later 2 are derivatives)
I should make a thread about this ,because after all the research I've done ,if there is any hope for Cushings disease (especially PDH) to have a cheap viable cure or at least viable treatment is this.
Artemisinin and especially Artemether can cross the BloodBrainBarrier too (especially useful for macroadenomas).
Consider it a mild form of chemotherapy...supposedly it produces ROS when in contact with high concentrations of iron (ex.reproducing cancer/tumor cells) ''burning'' the cells from within.

Pets should not have radiation two months prior to using Artemisinin or its derivatives.

Here are some links:
http://www.drlam.com/articles/Artemisinin.asp?page=1

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/artemisinin-and-canine-cancer/

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2012/247597/

P.S. Maybe i should ask for them to pay me some $ for the ''advertising''... :)

[beaglemom3]

Thanks! Iraklis, do you know how it compares with stasis breaker? That is what the doctor(vet) gave me to give Snugs

[Iraklis]

Never heard of it...

I've also recently been made aware of this... (not a herbal/herbal derivative like Artemix).
It's a chemotherapy drug but I have absolutely no idea if it would work on PDH pups...maybe ADH pups (a vet/oncologist might answer this)
http://www.vetinfo.com/vincristine-for-dogs.html

[beaglemom3]

stasis breaker is a Chinese herbal medicine that's said to shrink tumors among other things.

http://franklintnvet.com/stasis-breaker-treats-tumors-in-dogs-cats-and-horses/

http://www.tcvmherbal.com/JTDocs/Flyers/Stasis%20Breaker.pdf

[Iraklis]

That's exactly the link i found google-ing.
Can't say it gives any info on how it works.

Is Snugs taking it? Does it seem to work?

Snugs has ADH,right?

[beaglemom3]

it says about Stasis Breaker:
"It’s Chinese Principles of Treatment are to break Blood stasis, soften the hardness of tumors and clear the enlargement."

Yes he has been taking it for a little less that 2 months now. I do not know if it is working because I was told it takes about 1 month to start having an effect and when he had his MRI back on March 5th it was less than a month he was taking it.

But so far he is showing no outwards sign of having a pheochromocytoma, Thank God. The pheo tumor was found back in Oct 2013.

[Iraklis]

I read that but it doesn't describe how it does all that.

That's the drawback with everything 'natural'...they take time to work 'cause of less potency...but i guess that's the reason they have less side-effects...

Does he have to take it at a specific time of the day?
Does it contain any anti-oxidants?

[beaglemom3]

I don't know about the antioxidant, but I also give Snugs maritne pine bark which is a powerful anti oxidant 25 times more powerful that vit C, also a SAMe called Denamarin and another herbal extract for adrenal support.

These are the main ingredients in the stasis breaker and what they do:
◾Bai Hua She She Cao (Oldenandia) to inhibit cell mutation and tumor growth
◾Ban Zhi Lian (Scutellaria) to clear Heat-toxin, inhibit cell mutation, and inhibit tumor growth
◾E Zhu (Zedoaria) to purge the interior, break Blood stasis and clear mass
◾Mu Li (Shu) (Ostrea) to soften hardness and clear mass
◾San Leng (Sparganium) to purge the interior, break stasis and clear mass
◾Zhe Bei Mu (Fritillaria) to soften hardness and clear nodules

[molly muffin]

Vikie! :) So glad that you are feeling better and hopefully will stay on the good side of the health issues now. You've all had your share this winter it seems. Remember to take care of yourself.

I'm very happy to hear that Snuggs and Brando are doing well too. How has Snuggs BP been? I was wondering if the herbs have had any affect on that.

I hope you'll be feeling well enough to enjoy the nice weather this weekend with the boys.

hugs
sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

oops forgot to answer part of your question, now he takes 3 pills two times a day. we started 1 pill twice a day for 1 week, then 2 pills twice a day for 1 week, now 3 pills twice a day.

[beaglemom3]

Vikie! :) So glad that you are feeling better and hopefully will stay on the good side of the health issues now. You've all had your share this winter it seems. Remember to take care of yourself.

I'm very happy to hear that Snuggs and Brando are doing well too. How has Snuggs BP been? I was wondering if the herbs have had any affect on that.

I hope you'll be feeling well enough to enjoy the nice weather this weekend with the boys.

hugs
sharlene and molly muffin

Hi Sharlene thank you :) I will try and take better care of myself.
I asked the doctor about it helping keep his bp normal her answer was yes it can but indirectly.

I took Snugs bp two days ago and it was 126/80

I took my boys out in our back yard today and we had a nice time. Snugs got attached to another stuffed toy a pretty yellow bird that chirps and he carried it around for hours, he wouldn't let it go hehe and he brought it out side as well. He was so cute!, he tried burying it in his crate, the sofa, the backyard, so no one would find it lol

Branny did something today that shocked me. He is so gentle and sweet and never reacted to birds, squirrels, cats, he is just a lover boy. But today 2 white birds were in the back yard walking on our patio and oh boy did Branny react lol barking like a tough little guy and his hair standing up on his back ready to take care of business. It was so unlike him but was fun to watch him being so unlike himself. He is such a cutie pie.

I hope you and Molly are doing well!

[Iraklis]

Do you know how long this maritne pine bark stays in the body?

Arte() are pro-oxidants and work almost the same way chemotherapy does.
They produce ROS in the body which are then absorbed by cells high in iron concentration (ex. reproducing tumor/cancer cells) ''burning'' the cancer/tumor cells from inside.
Arte is given at 22-23:00 so it can have greater effect on tumor/cancer cells which reproduce faster during night-time.

Anti-oxidants should be given in the morning or at least lunch time, as far apart from Arte().

Arte() should also be pulsed (one day on, one day off) so you could pulse these 1 day at a time...
Why not ask your vet? The links i provided should give him enough info on whether or not to use Arte() too in Snugs treatment.

[beaglemom3]

oh I definitely will ask her about it. I give Snugs and Bran the pine bark with their breakfast at 8AM and Dinner at 6 PM. The stasis breaker at 11 AM and 11 PM

[beaglemom3]

I do not know how long the maritime pine bark stays in his system but I will ask the western herbalist, I assume you are asking so it does not conflict with the stasis breaker or the arte if the specialist prescribes it?

[beaglemom3]

Hi Iraklis, I just realized, the western herbalist sent another extract that I did not give Snuggles yet, but will over the weeknd we just recived it and it has in it:

mistle toe, worm wood, Chinese rhubarb and turmeric, is worm wood the same as the Artemisinin?

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Trish for you kind comments.
Snuggles had some kind of episode this morning, I am not sure what it was about. I am concerned, almost ran with him to the hospital.

Maybe you can give me some insight if this was pheo related.

When I first saw him this morning his back legs were trembling more than usual, and when I was serving them their breakfast he did not bark as he usally does he was quiet, although he did his usual spins around before I place his bowl down, (it is so cute to see)

Aftr breakfast he did not look quite like himself and he went under the coffee table instead of the couch which I never saw him do before. Then stood up under the coffee table I lifted it up and he walked out from under it, did that several times, or he would stand up and then lay back down under the coffee table, very quiet no moans or groans, just strange.

I took his bp is was quite low 55/31 MAP 43 Pulse 61 so I thought maybe it was an error was low again but not as low 110/34 MAP 40 Pulse 75.

Then he went out and pooped came back still wasn't acting like himself, took his bp again and I got a somewhat better reading more like his normal except for the pulse..122/68 MPA 76 Pulse 47. Since then he is acting fine, playing with his new toys, looking for food, laying on couch (not under coffee table) tail wagging.

I do not know if this is pheo related or what. I left a voicemail for my local vet, but he may be out of town and I called the two herbalists asking them about his bp and his behavior.

I am keeping a very close eye on him to see if this should happen again and check his bp a few more times today.

Last bp reading at vet was low as well about 2 weeks ago.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Praying nothing is wrong. Everything they do becomes questionable. I hope it is nothing, but when Tipper does something out of the ordinary I get nervous too. Blessings
Patti

I asked Iraklis to read your thread.

[beaglemom3]

Thanks so much! Patti Yes it is frightening when something out of the ordinary happens with them, it is scary!

So far he is still acting okay since the episode this morning. I hope Trish has some insight into it and can tell if it was pheo related or not.

[Squirt's Mom]

I hope it was just a period when the pheo decided to be active and nothing more. Let us know how he's doing. You are doing a great job, Mom! :)

[Trish]

Hi Vicki

It is weird with pheo's, some dogs like Kims had definite episodes when she could tell the tumour was secreting. I remember her saying that Annie was really shaky, trembling, pink skin, sweaty, heart racing she thought she was going to die. Flynn, however never had those type of episodes and had consistent shakes and he still does it, a lot... but he is a terrier and they are shaky little dogs!!

Sounds like Snugs was definitely not feeling well and seeking some place to hide. When Flynn is really crook he often sneaks outside and sits in amongst the garden. That was a signal to me all not well.

I am not up on all the supplements you are giving, but I think I have said this before if they were so good then they would be given to people and we would be able to read about consistent good results from studies. I am not knocking you for trying it because if I was in your situation I would probably be looking outside the box as well. But your list of what they do to tumours would have to have some side effects in the dog as well so it will be interesting to see what your herbalist says. I wonder why his BP was so low, I would have though if it was a pheo surge of adrenaline it would have been high.

How is he doing now, hopefully it was a one off and all is right again. Sending you lots of hugs as I know how scary this is x

[molly muffin]

Oh that is scary. Hmmm. Well my thought is either an herb might be causing the low bp or the invasion into the vena cava as I too thought Kim mentioned higher bp when tumor was secreting.
How about an email or call to the ims?

You are doing great and it is very scary

Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Thanks you Valerie, Trish and Molly. That is what I thought about pheo secreting, high BP, and he wasn't sweating or panting, just quiet and acting strange, going under the coffee table which I never saw him do in almost 15 years.

Only thing trembling were his hind legs but that's been the norm for last 2 years but was shaking more than usual this morning The rest of him wasn't trembling.

I did call the IMS, and emailed the western herbalist and left a voicemail for my local vet.

The Chinese Herbalist/ Vet from the AMC said what I am giving him should not cause low bp and she gave me the greatest information. I am the type when I do not know something I get so frightened. Wondering and worrying if he is bleeding internally, etc etc.

If any of you do not know this, this may help you out as well.
If he was losing blood or low bp his gums would be pale pink or white. If he had high bp his gums would be red. Normal healthy color is baby pink. If you press on his gums and take your finger off and it turns white and quickly goes back to pink, then he is getting enough oxygen, if it takes a while to go back to pink or doesn't, he isn't getting enough oxygen.

Not that I want to see anything abnormal, but it will help my nerves to know God forbid if anything is wrong pertaining to internal bleeding from the tumor invading the vena cava so I can rush him in to the hospital.

The western herbalist is in Australia so I expect to find an email from them tomorrow. I think my local vet is out of town or he would have called me back by now.

Snuggies gums are baby pink YAY! and he has been acting like his old self for the rest of the day after that episode passed.

The vet/Chinese herbalist will examine him on Wednesday and hopefully will find nothing wrong.

[Iraklis]

Hi Iraklis, I just realized, the western herbalist sent another extract that I did not give Snuggles yet, but will over the weeknd we just recived it and it has in it:

mistle toe, worm wood, Chinese rhubarb and turmeric, is worm wood the same as the Artemisinin?

Artemisinin is isolated from the plant Artemisia annua (sweet worm wood)...
There are many kinds of wormwood...could be it,could be not.

Turmeric/Curcumin on the other hand is an anti-oxidant and probably shouldn't be given at the same time.

[beaglemom3]

thank you, I sent an email asking about the worm wood if it had the artemisinin compound in it, I will let you know what they say.

My local vet just called back and he said it sounded to him like Snugs had back pain, which Snugs does have a bad back, him crawling under the coffee table instead of jumping on couch etc. He said it does not sound pheo related but that was his educated guess. He said the low bp readings sounded like they were not accurate, but too keep an eye on him just in case, but he said it doesn't think Snugs behavior was due to anything serious since he bounced back quickly.

[Iraklis]

I am not up on all the supplements you are giving, but I think I have said this before if they were so good then they would be given to people and we would be able to read about consistent good results from studies.

I'm 50-50 on this one...
I spent too much money (that i eventually needed later on) on everything i read would be helpful...but didn't seem to do anything.
I agree there is room for BS out there.
On the other hand...
Some supplements did seem to work...and as we all know these can't be patented and/or can't be thoroughly researched because that costs millions$ and the supplements are cheap.

[beaglemom3]

Hi Vicki


I am not up on all the supplements you are giving, but I think I have said this before if they were so good then they would be given to people and we would be able to read about consistent good results from studies.
How is he doing now, hopefully it was a one off and all is right again. Sending you lots of hugs as I know how scary this is x

one of the main herbal meds Snugs and Bran are getting is French maritime pine bark and there are several clinical studies done for all different illnesses including cancer.

This is just one search result for it
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=french+maritime+pine+bark+and+tumors

[Iraklis]

^
Reading that...that's a different kind of cancer.

Keep in mind also that French maritime pine bark is an anti-oxidant.

Arte() is pro-oxidant.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Do you know the difference in how these work? I assume one prevents free radicals etc. And one goes after them?? I want to know what the two different types do? Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

^
Reading that...that's a different kind of cancer.

Keep in mind also that French maritime pine bark is an anti-oxidant.

Arte() is pro-oxidant.

Yes there are studies on it for different types of cancers and different type of diseases.

[beaglemom3]

Vicki:
Do you know the difference in how these work? I assume one prevents free radicals etc. And one goes after them?? I want to know what the two different types do? Blessings
Patti

I believe so Patti, but when we go to Manhattan tomorrow I will have more info for you and everyone.
Since that strange episode Snugs has been fine, so maybe my vet was right he was in some sort of pain from his back or something.

The western herbalist emailed me back and said the herbal extracts she made for Snugs will lower his bp and she says that's good it means the meds are doing their job well.

The woodworm she included in the extract is not the sweet wormwood,
she said and I quote:
"The wormwood we use is anti pathogenic and has all the qualities that the sweet wormwood would be prescribed for."

Since the doctor we are seeing tomorrow dispenses the Chinese herbal meds I will ask her about the sweet wormwood and the difference between that and the stasis breaker.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Good luck tomorrow. Tipper will be going into the hospital the 23rd to have her tumor checked and see if it grew. I just hate going there it is so upsetting for both of us. I can't hardly sit still waiting to hear her fate, it is like torture which I am sure you are familiar with. I hope this herbal concoction is shrinking the tumor. I believe in Chinese medicines sometimes more than Western meds! Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Oh Patti, I know how frightening and worrisome that is I will keep Tipper and you in my prayers that her tumor has not grown at all and God willing gotten smaller!

[beaglemom3]

Yesterdays visit at the AMC went very well! The vet said she is extremely pleased with Snuggles. She said his circulation is even better than the first visit, and was impressed his weight is exactly the same as 2 months ago. She examines him in a different way than a traditional vet, she checks his tongue color, gums, feels all over his body for certain things called blockages and pulse (those terms means something else in Chinese Medicine) and asks questions about his behavior, eating habits, disposition, etc etc.
She said he has very bad arthritis in his back legs and showed us what to do for that. We are to move his legs in a bicycle pedaling motion, one at a time while he is laying down.
She felt along his spine and agreed he does have a disc problem and showed us what to do to help make his back feel better and stronger. We are to form our hand into a c shape holding it horizontally and moving it up and down along either side of his spine.

She said Snuggles looked and is acting great and if she did not know his age she would think he was 11-12 years old.
When Snugs had the MRI done and it showed the tumor mildly pressing on the vena cava, he was only on the Chinese herbal meds for 2 weeks, it takes about 1 month for them to have an effect, so God willing in 2 more months when he has his next ultrasound or MRI we will see and know if the meds are helping.
She is adding another medication for Snugs since the tumor was pressing against the vena cava now, but he is not sure which one, either the Artemisinin or something else.
She did add a probiotic for both Snugs and Branny.

She asked a lot of questions about Brando, as she did about Snuggles at our first visit.
About Brando's personality, his drinking habits, how he reacts to social situations, any fears he has, his disposition, and many more.
She examined Branny and said that although he is younger and right now cancer free, he is weaker than Snuggles, and is prescribing medicines to make him stronger, and to hopefully keep him cancer free,
when I get them I will tell you the names, she is ordering them for us and will be shipped to us. We are also to give Branny the stasis breaker, and probiotics.
She also said the fatty tumors Branny has so many of means he has blockages and the meds she prescribes for him with help with that as well.

After examining both of them she said something that made me feel so good. She said You are very good pet owners, for 14 year old dogs they look and act wonderful.

She said stasis breaker is not a pro oxidant but an antineoplastic. An antineoplastic inhibits or prevents the growth and spread of tumors or malignant cells, it also disrupts the blood flow to tumors.

Stasis breaker is only sold by prescriptions to veterinarians that are licensed in Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine.
www.tcvmherbal.com is the link to the pharmacy and if anyone is interested there's a search to Find a TCVM Practitioner in your area for prescription.

We go back in another month for a follow up.

We left the house at 12:30 PM and got home close to 6 PM I was exhausted, so was my husband and Brando went right into his crate to nap. But God Bless my Snuggie Bear he acted like he slept all day LOL aroooing, stole the oven mitts off the counter, playing with his toys, demanding cookies, I could barely move off the couch. He is something else!

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
So will the herb mix that Iraklis used be added? I am anxious to see if these herbs are able to shrink the tumor down. I guess you will not know that until the next MRI? I am happy you got such s good report. I hope you are feeling well now, and no more illness from all this stress! Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Yippeee, so glad to hear that Snuggles and Brando are doing well and that there are plans in place for both of them.

I hope you're feeling better these days too. :)

Looks to be a lovely weekend, hope you and the boys enjoy.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Iraklis]

Good news!! Happy for you and your babies!!

From what i have read, keep in mind that using Arte() initially (first few months of using it) the tumor looks like its growing when shown on MRI (because of slowly decomposing)...but usually its density already is lowering.
Don't know of a way to check pituitary tumor density though, other than just symptoms slowly going away.

btw, Here is the first study on Arte() i came across (this is how i initially found out about this substance(s) and started looking for it) when searching for ways to keep Huskos' pituitary tumor in check...
http://www.thedcasite.com/Library/Artemisinin/Case_Report_of_a_Pituitary_Macroadenoma_Treated_Wi th_Artemether.pdf

[beaglemom3]

Aww thanks Sharlene! Yes I am doing okay although I am scheduled for root canal next Wednesday UGH!

I hope to BBQ this weekend and enjoy the nice weather with my boys.
I started Brando on the Stasis Breaker today and he seemed to tolerate it okay, I worry because he's highly allergic. I am waiting on hearing from the IMS about what other herbal meds she is sending me for Snuggles and Brando.

Keeping you and Molly in my thoughts.

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Iraklis! Very encouraging study. I am not sure what else she is going to add to Snuggles protocol but will let you know once I do.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
The barbeque sounds wonderful and I bet the boys will enjoy it. My goodness a root canal?? I think you have had enough pain for a while! Hope it all goes well, and you have a gold weekend with the babies. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Patti I hope you have a great weekend too with Tipper
HUGS

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Hope you , your boys and hubby have a blessed Easter.I hope things continue to get better for all of you.
Patti

[molly muffin]

Hope you have a lovely Easter with the boys. BBQ sounds yummy. Bet the guys like that too. All those wonderful smells. Noses will be going nonstop.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Thank you Patti and Sharlene I wish you and everyone on the forums a happy healthy and safe Easter and Passover!

http://www.progressillinois.com/sites/progressillinois.com/files/imagecache/content_scale/pi-images/happy_easter_and_passover.jpg

[beaglemom3]

I am patiently (not really) waiting for a call back from the IMS we saw last week to see what she is sending for Snuggles and Brando, I have no heard a word since our visit, so I will tell you all if she decided on the arte or not.
Took Snuggles BP today it was great, 146/78, I think the western herbals are keeping his bp at a good level. And I am praying if that is the case then maybe, just maybe it is shrinking or stopping that pheo from getting bigger. That's I my hope, my dream.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
You keep hoping and having your dreams as they do come true. I pray every nite for a miracle for your boys. I hope someone has been in contact with you by now on any more herbs. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Patti you so kind, nope I haven't heard from the vet yet :( She usually calls back same day but in evening. I will call again now

[molly muffin]

I was just checking in to see if you'd heard anything from the vet yet too. Looks like not. :(

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Sharlene,
OMG I feel so stupid the vet had emailed me on the 16 with meds info and instruction and I never sw it, but she did call today.

This is a copy and paste of her evaluations of each.

It was a pleasure meeting you and working with "Brando" today. Brando looks very good for his age.
Overall, the main finding from a Chinese medicine perspective was dampness/phlegm leading to formation of the
fatty tumors, the adrenal tumor and the recurrent ear infections.
The following herbal supplements should help to address these issues:
MEDICATIONS:
1. Four Marvels (Si Miao San)- herbal supplement- Give 1/2 tab by mouth THREE times daily. You can order this
directly from KanHerb.com. You should be receiving an e-mail notifying you that a prescription has been placed.
2. Stasis Breaker (herbal supplement to help decrease growth of tumors)- Give 1-2 caps by mouth twice daily for
3-5 days. If well tolerated, increase to 3 caps TWICE daily.

Thank you for entrusting us with "Brando's" care. He is a very sweet boy!

Snuggles

It was a pleasure seeing you and "Snuggles" again today. I am very pleased with how Snuggles is doing. His
weight is stable and he has great energy, which are both good signs.
HOME EXERCISES: ***
MASSAGE: Begin by kneading with your fingers to pick up the loose skin around "Snuggles" neck. This is a great
way to relax "Snuggles" and signal the start of your therapy. Use firm but gentle pressure to give "Snuggles" a massage along the spine. Use circular motions with your thumbs on either side of the spine or cusp your hand in
the shape of a "C" and run down along the back. Begin at the neck and move down towards the tail. You can also
continue your massage through the limbs.
HIND-LIMB PASSIVE RANGE OF MOTION (PROM): "Snuggles" should be lying on his side. Take each joint
through a full range of motion (ankle, knee, hip). Keep the leg parallel to the ground and do not pull on the paw.
Place one hand above the joint and one hand below. Gently flex and extend each joint. Pulse intermittently to
improve the range of motion and hold each stretch for 10 sec. Do this for 3-5 min.
You may find it helpful to watch an instructional video on our YouTube Channel for guidance on the exercises:
http://www.youtube.com/user/AMCRehabFitness. Search for: Hindlimb PROM
STANDING BICYCLES: Alternatively, you can do the range of motion in a standing position. In a square standing
posture, on a non-slippery surface use one hand to support "Snuggles" between the hind legs and the other hand
to lift a leg and do a standing bicycle motion.
MEDICATIONS:
Continue all meds as before. will reach out to you regarding starting a second herbal supplement after I have a chance to review the options.

When I spoke with her she did tell me the second supplement:
Wei Qi Booster

Main Herbs in Wei Qi Booster
Wei Qi Booster is based on the classical formula Si Jun Zi Tang, which was first described in Tai Ping Hui Min He Ji Ju Fang (Imperial Grace
Formulary of the Tai Ping Era) by Chen Shi Wen and others in 1080 A.D. Its main effects are to tonify Wei Qi, Qi and Blood, and clear Heat-Toxins,
and modern scientific research has shown that many herbs in Wei Qi Booster have anti-neoplastic effects. Dan Shen (Codonopsis) and Huang
Qi (Astragalus) tonifyWei Qi and global Qi, and Wu Yao (Lindera) and Chen Pi (Citrus) move Qi and clear Stagnation. Dang Gui (Angelica) tonifies
Blood and Xuan Shen (Scrophularia) cools Blood and nourishes Yin. Bai Hua She She Cao (Oldenlandia) and Ban Zhi Lian (Scutellaria) inhibit
cell mutation and tumor growth.

Clinical Research on Wei Qi Booster
Si Jun Zi Tang is a classical herbal formula and much scientific research has been done on its effects in humans. For example, one study looked
at the effects of this formula in gastric carcinoma patients post-surgery.1 Si Jun Zi Tang was administered for nine days, together with enteral
nutrition via nasogastric tube. In comparison to patients that received only the enteral nutrition, patients who received Si Jun Zi Tang had
increased blood albumin and transferrin levels, with increased numbers of certain T-cell subsets. This showed that Si Jun Zi Tang enhanced both
the immune system and nutritional status in these cancer patients. A similar study on patients with malignant gastrointestinal tumors found that
administration of Si Jun Zi Tang post-surgically led to increased levels of antibodies (IgA, IgM and IgG), total lymphocytes and interleukin-2
compared to control group patients.2 These researchers concluded that early administration of Si Jun Zi Tang in the post-surgical period reduces
post-operative stress and inflammation, and enhances immune function. Another research group studied the effects of Si Jun Zi Tang in a mouse
model of aging.3 Mice treated for six weeks with Si Jun Zi Tang had decreased levels of malondialdehyde (a marker of oxidative stress) and
increased heart and brain telomerase activity in comparison to mice treated with distilled water only. The researchers therefore concluded that Si
Jun Zi Tang antagonizes damage caused by free radicals.

Pharmaceutical Evidence for the Effects of Herbs in Wei Qi Booster

Many of the herbs in Wei Qi Booster have been scientifically proven to have anti-inflammatory and anti-neoplastic effects. Dan Shen (Codonopsis)
and Dang Gui (Angelica) have been used together to successfully protect mice in experimentally-induced sepsis, through inhibition of a novel
cytokine.4 Another study found that Dan Shen (Codonopsis) can reduce airway inflammation in a rat model of asthma (shown by decreased white
blood cells in bronchoalveolar lavage fluid and decreased interleukin-13 in lung tissue), and synergizes with conventional steroid treatment.5
Together, the combination of Huang Qi (Astragalus) and Dang Gui (Angelica) has been shown to stimulate erythopoetin production in cultured
kidney cells, which will therefore benefit anemia.6 These two herbs have also been demonstrated to be effective in treatment of diabetes mellitus,
and exert a protective effect against development of diabetic neuropathy in a mouse model.7 Seven compounds with anti-neoplastic activity have
been isolated from Ban Zhi Lian (Scutellaria). These compounds have been shown to be cytotoxic to nine human cancer cell lines in laboratory
studies,8 and many other studies confirm that this herb induces apoptosis in a variety of types of neoplasia. The anti-neoplastic effects of Bai Hua
She She Cao (Oldenlandia) have also been scientifically documented, as this herb has been shown to induce apoptosis in human cancer cell
lines.9 Bai Hua She She Cao (Oldenlandia) also has anti-inflammatory effects in models of inflammation induced by lipopolysaccharide,10 and in
a mouse model of arthritis this herb had anti-inflammatory effects comparable to ibuprofen, but without the side effect of gastric lesions.11

this is the complete information on the herbal supplement
http://www.tcvmherbal.com/JTDocs/Flyers/WeiQiBooster.pdf

[doxiesrock912]

Wow! That is a lot to digest.
I hope the boys take their herbs willingly as some can taste not so good.

Praying that it works for both of them.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am interested in the one that reduces airway inflammation, I need to look into that. Very good information to sort through. Thank you for posting this. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Valerie, I hope so too!

it is in pill form well at least the stasis breaker by same company is and I give it to them in a teaspoon with some applesauce and they gulp it right down.



You're welcome Patti That supplement is only by prescription by a vet licensed in traditional herbal medicine but that pharmacy has a link to find one in your area to get a script from.

[Trish]

My gosh, that is a lot of info. Good they are so thorough. I really hope they help the boys Vicki! xx

[Squirt's Mom]

Bai Hua She She Cao (Oldenlandia) and Ban Zhi Lian (Scutellaria) inhibit
cell mutation and tumor growth.

...Seven compounds with anti-neoplastic activity have
been isolated from Ban Zhi Lian (Scutellaria). These compounds have been shown to be cytotoxic to nine human cancer cell lines in laboratory
studies,8 and many other studies confirm that this herb induces apoptosis in a variety of types of neoplasia.

WOW! Scutellaria is Skullcap in the common tongue, an herb I use often but had not read about this action associated with it! But TCM is just now starting to make sense to me and I am just now starting to see how differently the same herbs I use are used in TCM. It is a fascinating approach and one that has been viable for centuries...tho completely strange to us raised in the Western perspective. The herbalist who is working with me was trained in TCM as well as Ayurvedic, a medicinal approach from India that is also centuries old and vastly different from TCM. My studies are from a Western Folk perspective so we have thing pretty well covered! :D Tho I admit to a growing interest in TCM. ;)

How wonderful that the vet gave you such detailed info on the meds for the boys! The exercises will be nice for both of you, too, especially the massages. That is a wonderful bonding activity!

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I believe in what you are doing and I pray each nite that your boys will be healed. Blessings
Patti

[Iraklis]

How wonderful that the vet gave you such detailed info on the meds for the boys!

+1
It shows he is interested in their health!
I'd take a vet like that over a ''renowned'' vet with ''high reputation'' any day!

[beaglemom3]

Thanks so much everyone. I have been trying to massage Snuggles, he lets me do his neck and along his spine but he is not letting me do the bicycle or the legs flexes and stretches, I will keep trying but he makes it known....hands off mom lol

[molly muffin]

Molly is much the same way. You can massage her back and her neck and even the hip joint but don't go messing with any bike motions. That's not in her comfort zone I guess, because she immediately tries to get up and away.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

Snugs goes for my hand LOL he doesn't bite hard just enough to let me know, get off me mom. But if I persisted I know he would bite harder, he gave me my warning and if I ignore it I pay the consequences, so needless to say I heed his warning lol

[beaglemom3]

Vicki:
I believe in what you are doing and I pray each nite that your boys will be healed. Blessings
Patti

Thanks so much Patti I so appreciate your prayers!

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Between the two of us we just have to get those boys a miracle!! Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Same for your Tipper!

[beaglemom3]

I took a video a couple of days ago of Snuggles with his new toy for the day.

http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/Vicki-615/media/SnuggieampBranny_zpsb184c805.mp4.html

[molly muffin]

That is so cute how he carries it with him everywhere, even outside. Adorable.

Gets around pretty good for an older gent. :) :) Especially for a treat. LOL

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

LOL yes he's a funny little boy. He acts so young most of the time I am shocked he is almost 15 God Willing.

Snuggles has springs in his legs, I'm sure of it lol he jumps higher than any beagle I've seen. I try to stop him now from jumping up and down like he is on a pogo stick, I am so afraid he will hurt his back or something else he has no clue he is geriatric lol

I keep thinking the pheo gotta be a mistake, but all the tests prove me wrong :( but as my vet says its more important how Snugs is acting than the test results right now.

Branny is looking much better since I started giving him the stasis breaker, he was sleeping most of the day and not very active anymore, looked more droopy than usual lately. But he looks bright eyed and bushy tailed the last two days I noticed. The video was taken last week before Brando started the stasis breaker.

Thanks for viewing Sharlene HUGS to sweet Molly.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I could watch these babies all nite. Such cute faces, they do not look their ages! I love how he carried that chicken everywhere. It looked like he was looking for a place to hide it in the back yard. Some dogs really enjoy toys, and others won't touch them. Tipper has had toys since she was a baby, so she loves her toys. It's so nice to watch them happy. I keep taking video of Tipper as much as I can, it is nice with all the technology today. Hugs to the boys and I will look those links up tomorrow.
Patti

[beaglemom3]

LOL yup Patti he wanted so badly to hide or bury it but mom was watching.
I am glad you are taking vidoes of Tipper, they are priceless.

Thanks for viewing..every time I look at their faces I fall in love with them all over again.

[Trish]

Very cute Snugs!! There is no mistaking that toy is his! :D

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I will try to work on those links today I am spring cleaning and in the middle of the guest bathroom. I am on break. If I quit I will never go back to it. Hugs to the good looking boys.
Patti

[beaglemom3]

hehe thanks Trish :) No rush Patti, from the study I posted and the accuracy of the urine test pertaining to Snugs, I am fairly convinced those tests have a high accuracy rate.

[goldengirl88]

Wonder if they are the same kind as the ones I read. I did not know there were many different ones, I thought it was limited ?? Are you aware of how many different types? I will have to get on it and look this up as I am not. What's the toy of the day today?? Tipper is getting jealous she said I better get out there and get her something!! Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

tYou might have read about different tests, the urine test that Snugs took, it is not a 24 hour urine test, it compares the urine of a normal dog with the one suspected, I think there is a 24 hr urine test that might be the less desirable one and the blood test that I have seen good studies and reviews on is the plasma free one.

In fact the link about pheos that Trish posted the other day named both the urine test that Snugs had and the plasma free blood test as a diagnostic tools.

I will take a pic of the toy Snugs had today, this one he ripped some of the stuffing out of, but first walked around with it in his mouth for a bit trying to hide it lol, then decided ti was time to have at it :)

I am going to try and get a video of Snugs burying his toy in the loveseat, it cracks me up no matter how many times I see him do this, then cover it with imaginary dirt lol, but so far each time he has done this lately I've left my cell phone upstairs.

[molly muffin]

Oh that is funny that he buries it in the loveseat!!

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

LOL Sharlene I really have to get that on video, how are you feeling? I hope you were able to nap today. Wishing you a peaceful restful nights sleep.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Tipper used to do that with treats. One day she took like 15 minutes to bury a treat and she would cover it with pretend dirt and even part it down. The cat was watching her do it. So when she finished and turned around and saw the cat had
seen where she hid it she dug it all back up and went some where else. I cannot do it with her now as she would never hide treats when she is ravenous, but that is the one thing I do not have on video. She never did it with toys. I know what you mean about seeing it. Every time she did it I was fascinated at the amount of work she would do to hide it. That has to be the cutest thing ever. I hope you get it on video. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Yes you do, video, video, video. (ya got to chant it)

I got a 30 min nap, which helped some, but crappy day at work, which got my BP up I'm sure. LOL I'll seriously try to sleep tonight. I'm just out of whack at the moment.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

tYou might have read about different tests, the urine test that Snugs took, it is not a 24 hour urine test, it compares the urine of a normal dog with the one suspected, I think there is a 24 hr urine test that might be the less desirable one and the blood test that I have seen good studies and reviews on is the plasma free one.

In fact the link about pheos that Trish posted the other day named both the urine test that Snugs had and the plasma free blood test as a diagnostic tools.


Hi Vicki

I think the link I posted the other day is encouraging with new diagnostics being investigated, but she does finish in the summary saying they are "up and coming" and she has a comment on canine reference ranges and also that definitive diagnosis is difficult without histopathology ie... looking at the tumour under a microscope. Dr Mark Peterson who is an expert in all things canine endocrinology said the following on testing for pheo when he reviewed new studies in this area last year. Here is the website, his comments and bottom line on this research are at the bottom http://endocrinevet.blogspot.co.nz/2013/07/top-10-clinical-endocrinology-research.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

I think this is the test Snugs had? If so his was only 2.5x that of the control. Wasn't the control Brando? Who was diagnosed with his own adrenal tumour recently? I was just wondering about the validity of that testing, taking that into consideration Brando's recent problems. Have your vets commented on that? I am not sure whether that would make Snugs test results weaker or stronger, but it looks like they are meant to be tested against a healthy control and to be at least 4x the control to be consistent with pheo. I just thought this might give you some hope that it is not a pheo for your Snugs?!?! Food for thought anyway. xx

Salesov E, Boretti FS, Sieber-Ruckstuhl NS, et al. Urinary and plasma catecholamine and metanephrine in dogs with pheochromocytoma, hyperadrenocorticism and in healthy dogs. J Vet Intern Med 2013 27:688-689.


Pheochromocytoma (PHEO) is a rare malignant catecholamine-secreting tumor of the adrenal medulla. Catecholamines and metanephrines in plasma and in 24-h urine are approved biomarkers for the detection of the disease in humans, however, the question which of the tests is best is controversial. We previously demonstrated that measurement of urinary catecholamine and metanephrine to creatinine ratios is helpful for the diagnosis of PHEO in dogs and that urinary normetanephrine to creatinine ratio may be the best test to discriminate between PHEO and hypercortisolism (HC). Knowledge on plasma catecholamines and metanephrines in dogs is scarce and no comparison between urinary and plasma parameters has been performed. The objective of the study was to measure urinary as well as plasma catecholamines and metanephrines in dogs with PHEO, HC and in healthy dogs and to determine the test with the least overlap between the group. Six dogs with PHEO, 9 dogs with HC (6 with ATH, 3 with PDH) and 10 healthy dogs were included. Urine samples were collected into HCL containing tubes to ensure a pH 2, blood samples were collected on ice, centrifuged at 4°C and immediately snap frozen in liquid nitrogen. All samples were stored at – 80°C. Urinary epinephrine (U-Epi), norepinephrine (U-Norepi), metanephrine (U-Meta) and normetanephrine (U-Normeta), and epinephrine (P-Epi), norepinephrine (P-Norepi), free and total metanephrine (PF-Meta and PT-Meta) and free and total normetanephrine (PF-Normeta and PT-Meta) were analysed by HPLC. Urinary catecholamines and metanephrines were expressed as ratios to urine creatinine concentrations. Data were analysed by non-parametric tests (P < 0,05). Similar to our previous findings U-Epi, U-Norepi, U-Meta and U-Normeta were significantly higher in dogs with PHEO and U-Norepi and U-Normeta were significantly higher in dogs with HC compared to healthy dogs. Comparison between dogs with HC and dogs with PHEO revealed significantly higher U-Meta and U-Normeta in the latter group. U-Normeta was the only parameter with no overlap. In dogs with PHEO P-Norepi, PF-Meta, PT-Meta, PF-Normeta, PT-Normeta were significantly higher and in dogs with HC P-Norepi, PF- Normeta and PT-Normeta were significantly higher than in healthy dogs. Comparison between dogs with HC and dogs with PHEO showed significant higher PF-Meta, PT-Meta, PF- Normeta, PT-Normeta in the PHEO group. Overlap was present with all 4 parameters, but was least with PF-Normeta and PT-Normeta. According to our results U-Normeta, PF- Normeta and PT-Normeta are valuable parameters for the diagnosis of PHEO, so far U-Normeta performed better than the plasma parameters.



Comments—In some recent studies, up to one in five adrenal tumors has been a pheochromocytoma. In the past, a presumptive diagnosis of a pheochromocytoma was based on history which was often a vague, sometimes episodic description of illness, documentation of hypertension, an adrenal mass noted on abdominal ultrasound, and ruling out adrenal-dependent Cushing’s syndrome with an endogenous ACTH level or the results of dexamethasone suppression testing. This current research adds additional data to the idea that measurement of urinary and plasma catecholamine and metanephrine can also be used to aid in diagnosis.

The Bottom Line—Currently, a urine normetaphrine/creatinine level, appears to be the most sensitive and specific test to document a pheochromocytoma. This test requires that the urine sample is acidified at the time of collection and a control urine sample from a normal dog (also acidified) is submitted. A urine normetaphrine/creatinine level at least 4-times the control is consistent with pheochromocytoma.

In the US, the test for urine normetaphrine/creatinine can be performed at Marshfield Labs (www.marshfieldlabs.com (http://www.marshfieldlabs.com/)). Acid pellets for urinary acidification are available from the laboratory.

References:



Quante S, Boretti FS, Kook PH, et al. Urinary catecholamine and metanephrine to creatinine ratios in dogs with hyperadrenocorticism or pheochromocytoma, and in healthy dogs (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20707840). J Vet Intern Med 2010;24:1093-1097.
Kook PH, Grest P, Quante S, et al. Urinary catecholamine and metadrenaline to creatinine ratios in dogs with a phaeochromocytoma (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20139380). Vet Rec2010;166:169-174.
Kook PH, Boretti FS, Hersberger M, et al. Urinary catecholamine and metanephrine to creatinine ratios in healthy dogs at home and in a hospital environment and in 2 dogs with pheochromocytoma (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17552441). J Vet Intern Med2007;21:388-393.

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Trish, He seems to agree with my vet that the urine test Snugs took is a good indicator.
Mark Peterson is in NYC where I am and I a few months ago tried so hard getting an appointment with him, but he is not taking on new patients :(

That's the irony of it all we had no idea Brando might have a pheo or Cushings at the time we took the urine test and used Brando's as the "normal" urine to compare. But the MRI, the 3 or 4 ultrasounds all come back pointing to a pheo.

We were about to retest Snuggles but then our vet acquired the MRI facility and we went that route.
After Brando's MRI my vet did comment about the urine test and Brando's urine, but I think he feels given the results of the MRI and previous ultrasounds that it is a pheo.

But I want to have Brando tested and Snuggles retested at Marshal Labs, that is the lab we used for time around and was thinking about this just last week. Will call him Monday and have him set it up.

[beaglemom3]

Yes you do, video, video, video. (ya got to chant it)

I got a 30 min nap, which helped some, but crappy day at work, which got my BP up I'm sure. LOL I'll seriously try to sleep tonight. I'm just out of whack at the moment.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin
LOL I will try and be ready today if Snugs does it with his new toy today,

I am glad you were able to take a nap but I so hope you have a good nights sleep.

[beaglemom3]

Vicki:
Tipper used to do that with treats. One day she took like 15 minutes to bury a treat and she would cover it with pretend dirt and even part it down. The cat was watching her do it. So when she finished and turned around and saw the cat had
seen where she hid it she dug it all back up and went some where else. I cannot do it with her now as she would never hide treats when she is ravenous, but that is the one thing I do not have on video. She never did it with toys. I know what you mean about seeing it. Every time she did it I was fascinated at the amount of work she would do to hide it. That has to be the cutest thing ever. I hope you get it on video. Blessings
Patti

Oh that is so funny!
and I do agree it is the cutest thing ever.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I just wish I could see her do it once more and video it!! Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Maybe Tipper will surprise you one day, if not you always have the visual in your memory to play over and over as many times as you want:)

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
That definitely would be the most wonderful gift. I am getting nervous about Tipper's appointment Wednesday. God help us both.
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I am praying Tippers appointment goes very well!

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Thank you, I know you sure have had your time with this. The waiting is the worst. Just driving there makes me sick at my stomach. Say a prayer for my girl please. Blessings and hugs to the boys
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I will definitely have Tipper in my prayers, this is what the integrated medical vet told me on our first visit. She saw how worried and tearful I was over Snuggles diagnosis. and she told me that dogs pick up on our worries and anxieties. She said act happy and cheerful around them and tell them how good! they are doing. I have been doing that ever since she told me to. No matter what or how I feel when I am not around them, as soon as I am in in the same room or the same level of house ( we have a duplex), I put on my happy face for them and tell them each one at a time how great they look and how good they are doing with a lot of upbeat emphasis in my voice.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I try to keep upbeat around her, we play a game in the car. When she gets bored or worried where she is going I say to her look in that car do you see any dogs. She gets real interested in looking in the cars we pass and people wave to her especially kids. She will also look in the sky for birds or planes if I tell her to kook for them. When they have her in the back doing the ultra sound everything I held in usually comes out, but I am in good company as usually you are among many crying and waiting. I am worried that one of these times our luck will run out, that is my greatest fear. This will be her fourth one. I pray every nite for this horrible disease to be wiped off the earth. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
These are some of the links to the false positive information I read on the testing. let me know if these are the tests you had done please.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/
endocrinesurgery.ucla.edu.patient_education_pheoch romocytoma.html
www.angelfire.com/hi/pheochromocytoma/biodiag.html
cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/treat
I am on my tiny tablet and it is too hard to copy and paste these on it so sorry I did not do the links.

[beaglemom3]

yeah links are not working

I fixed the first link http://endocrinesurgery.ucla.edu/patient_education_pheochromocytoma.html

and no Snugs had a different urine test, not the 24 hour one.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Please google this and they are all listed underneath it : false positive canine test for pheochromocytoma
The reason I am wanting to know if these are the same as what your dogs had is I did see tremors listed as a symptom of pheos, and I may need to revisit this subject with the IMS. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Hi Patti, yes I saw the articles and Snuggles did not have the 24 hour urine test and he did not have the blood test....

he had this test done at Marshfield labs
http://endocrinevet.blogspot.co.nz/2013/07/top-10-clinical-endocrinology-research.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

that's a link that Trish posted and it is written by a top animal endocrinologist Mark Peterson:

"The Bottom Line—Currently, a urine normetaphrine/creatinine level, appears to be the most sensitive and specific test to document a pheochromocytoma. This test requires that the urine sample is acidified at the time of collection and a control urine sample from a normal dog (also acidified) is submitted. A urine normetaphrine/creatinine level at least 4-times the control is consistent with pheochromocytoma.

In the US, the test for urine normetaphrine/creatinine can be performed at Marshfield Labs (www.marshfieldlabs.com). Acid pellets for urinary acidification are available from the laboratory."

Also keep in mind any blood or urine test can give a false positive, its the nature of tests, I had a urine test for my self recently and it came back that I had a raging UTI, when they did a culture it came back negative, my urine test was a false positive.

[beaglemom3]

forgot to add I do not see the test Snuggles took listed in this article you linked, not sure how old the article is but they did not discuss it.

http://www.angelfire.com/hi/Pheochromocytoma/biodiag.html

SNuggles test is a urine normetaphrine/creatinine level

[goldengirl88]

Vicky:
Thank you, I will see the vet tomorrow and bring it up to him. I am still worried about these tremors. She has not had any of the real bad ones for about a week and a half now. The hospital just called to make sure we are there Wednesday so we all be gone at 530am. Pray for my girl please. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

I am sure it is extremely worrisome, my prayers are with Tipper and you!

I called my vet and we have set up 2 more urine tests for Snugs and Branny to test for pheos, It has to be done on a Tuesday since Marshalfield labs runs the test on Wednesday, my vet already has that labs stuff to put the urine in. I am hoping to bring them tomorrow if I can if not definitely next Tuesday.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Is this their second one of these tests? If so is there some reason it needs repeated? Very dark an raining here with bad weather coming, when I don't know! Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Brando never had the test done to check if he had a pheo.

When we first tested Snuggles urine for a pheo, we used Brando's urine for the normal dogs urine, it needs to be compared to a normal dog near the same age. Unbeknownst to us at the time, Brando has a right adrenal mass that his recent ultrasound and MRI revealed which could be a pheo as well, OMG I hope not, both of my babies with pheos would just be too cruel.

So we are retesting Snuggles to get a better reading with a normal dog's urine and testing Brando for first time to see if he has a pheo.

Stay safe!

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
You are right that would be too cruel. Do they have normal dogs urine at the lab to compare this to? I can't believe this happened to your boys, I mean what are the odds of that happening? It just sounds unreal. Most of us are just dealing with one, but two??? God Bless you all
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Patti, yes it does sound unreal that's why my vet and ultrasound doctor were in shock, when Branny had his 4 D Ultrasound and the vet was so hesitant to tell me. When he did tell me during our consultation I walked outside of the hospital leaned against the wall and just cried.

I believe the vet sends the normal dog's urine along with the one who is to be tested. The lab sends a kit or something first.

[molly muffin]

I hope that Brando comes back completely clear!! That would be good. When do they redo the MRI's? or is it ultrasound they will redo?

Hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Vicki, I am so sorry for what you and your sweet boys are going through, you all are in my thoughts and prayers, sending huge and loving hugs, Lori

[beaglemom3]

thank you Sharlene, me too I hope Snugs does as well, (wishing and hoping)
we do another MRI or ultrasound in another month and a half. Not sure which we will do yet.

I am not thrilled about them going under anesthesia again for over an hour. But the MRI shows so much more. I just don't know :(

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am hoping and praying this test does not come up positive. You have been thru more than what one person should have to deal with. I am praying for your boys to live long lives with their mom. Blessings
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

These boys have the best mom ever....and her love is the very best medicine of all. But I also know how that love can cause us so much pain and worry. I pray Brando and Snugs will be with you for a long time to come.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[beaglemom3]

Thanks so much! Leslie and Patti, I so appreciate your words of support and prayers and good wishes. I feel the same way for you both!

I might be taking them today for the urine test, it is supposed to be a bad rainy day here and if it is my dad won't drive in it, which I do not blame him one bit.

Due to my inner ear issues I never was able to drive :( which makes things pretty inconvenient for me. So if not today then next Tuesday.

[molly muffin]

Ugh, hope you don't get a nasty rainy day.

I can see how the not driving would be inconvenient when you have dogs that you need to take to vets especially.

Which ever day it is, we'll all be holding our breath right along with you!

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Maybe it will be better weather next week. The roads here are like ponds and dangerous for hydro planing. I know it just means more stress to wait, but stay safe. We just got back from the vets. Today he reminded me of why no do not like him. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Hi Everyone,
The weather held out YAY They say now the heavy rains will not start until later. We just got back and urine collections are done and will be delivered overnight. I think I get the results next Tuesday.

Thanks so much for everyone's good wishes and support. Now I wait......

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
So glad you got that done as I know it was weighing on your mind. I will pray that the results are good, you need some good news. It stopped raining, but the wind is relentless here. Hope to hear good things on Tuesday. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Thanks Patti :)