Raleigh, Archie, Gus

[scoora]

Thursday morning Archie got his rabies shot. I talked to the vet before he got the shot and said I was concerned because of what I read. She felt it would be fine and he is by law supposed to have it now. Just makes me sick what I did get to read about vaccinations. Well Friday morning he apparently had a seizure. I took him to the emergency hospital because his vet wasn't in yet. I asked the emergency vet if it could have been caused from the rabies shot. She said that's not the first thing we think of but she said he was too young for 2 other things she mentioned. She said she could do blood work and make sure things were OK. That was fine with me. She said the only thing that was off was his white cell count was a bit high. She said it could be from the rabies shot or maybe he's starting with an infection. She put him on antibiotics. When I spoke to his regular vet on the phone she said the elevated white count was probably from the rabies shot and she would not have started him on antibiotics. I said will it hurt? She said no. I was looking at a link Kathy gave me about rabies shots and it mentions about not giving antibiotics. I'll tell you. I can't catch a freekin break. Why is all this crap happening? Am I being punished? All I want to do is love my guys and nothing seems to go right. Will those seizures keep happening or was it one time? Boy am I scared.

[doxiesrock912]

Oh no Vicki!
I'm hoping for no more problems. Daisy has never had a problem so I really can't offer any advice.

How is Archie now?

[Budsters Mom]

This whole situation makes me sick. We just talked about this on Rosie's thread and I sent you a link, now this has happened to poor Archie. YES! I definitely think that his seizure was due to the rabies shot. This is my opinion based on the facts. Archie had a seizure the morning after he had his rabies shot. Seizures were listed on the side effects list.

PLEASE report this to the manufacturer IMMEDIATELY!!! Go to your vet and ask for the lot number of the vaccine Archie received. Have them give you the information in writing and have the vet sign and date it. You need the time and date that the vaccine was given on the paper. ask your vet to note what part of the body the shot was given. Get all the details you possibly can. After that go home and write down everything that the vet told you when you asked him/her about the shot. You will need those notes when you contact the manufacturer. Please do this right away. The manufacture may even pay for Archie's emergency care, so GET COPIES OF EVERYTHING! You may need to go back to the emergency vet to get that. The details for contacting the manufacturer are on that link I sent you. If this were my pup, I would be on a mission at this point and EVERYBODY better watch out!!!! Be calm and in control. If you act crazy, they are less likely to take you serious. Know the facts and don't let anyone intimidate you! If I didn't get the help I wanted from the manufacturer, I would take this all the way to the next level, which is the state because they require these vaccinations. This is the way I would handle this. I do not lay down and play dead.

As for whether Archie will have any more seizures, I have no way of knowing that. Keep a close eye on him and make sure to keep all of your medical information and copies. ((((Big hugs)))

[Trish]

Hi Vicki
OH no, it does seem to be one thing after another with your lot, sorry to read that happened to poor Archie, what actually happened when he had the seizure? Can you describe it?

If it is listed as a side effect, then it would usually be a reaction in the individual dog not as a result of a bad vaccine especially if it is not occurring in other dogs around the same time. But I would still let them know, the vet should actually so it is noted officialy. We have a govt agency that record adverse reactions to medication, not sure if there is something similar for animals but they are worth reporting as Kathy said as if there are similar things happening with others then they need to look at the reason why.

If it was a true seizure then they can happen for a variety of reasons, high termperature is one example and his white cells were up so could have been that, or most simply reaction to the rabies shot. Hopefully just a one-off though. Such a worry for you with your new babies, hope it is smooth sailing from now on. We do not have rabies in NZ so do not have to give this vaccine to our dogs and reading this I am very thankful of that. xx

[scoora]

Thanks Valerie, Kathy and Trish.
Kathy, I agree. This whole situation makes me sick too. I looked at the website you gave me but couldn't get to much of it. It was late. The next morning I mentioned to the vet about my concerns and she said they are supposed to by law have them between 3 and 4 months old. Archie is 4 1/2 months old. I said about allowing 3 weeks between shots. She said 2-3 is OK. Just erks me so much that this happened after I was worried about it. I don't know why I didn't go with my gut feeling. I thought about waiting a week or two but the vet made it sound like it was OK. I always put my trust in them that they know what they are doing. I don't think she would do something if she felt it wasn't right but DANG IT why did this have to happen. I did talk about getting them the Lyme disease shot and the vet said we shouldn't do that now. Now I have to think about using that other crap on them for flees and ticks.

I too think it was the shot. That's horrible what they say on that link about it. I think I will offer to tell the vet what the website is if she is interested in reading about it. The emergency vet said she can't say for sure if he had a seizure because she didn't see it but his regular vet said she thinks it was a seizure but she can't say if it was from the shot or not. I have a feeling that she thinks it probably was but just can't say it. Knock on wood, if nothing happens till next year I will be afraid for him to get this shot again. Do you know if they can have problems like this with other vaccines?

The vet told me she will report it to the manufacture but I will follow up on it. Thanks for telling me all those things I should find out. The vet Archie sees is only in on Thursdays and Fridays. They have a different vet there the other days but I can talk to the girls up front and see if they can help me. I have a discharge summary and a copy of his blood work from the hospital. Maybe that will do.

[scoora]

Trish,
What happened was Friday morning Archie and Gus ate breakfast and then chased each other around for a bit. Then when I sat down on the loveseat to eat my cereal Archie wanted to sit with me and crawled onto my lap and just laid there. I thought this was strange because the two of them go at it for much longer than they did. I thought maybe he still was feeling the effects of the shot and was tired. When my daughter is done with breakfast she sits on the floor and talks to them for a bit. Archie wanted down off my lap and went to her which was normal. He laid on her lap which he does. After a bit he coughed and made a gagging noise. I didn't know if it was Archie or Gus because Gus does that because of his nose. Molly said it was Archie. She said he then started breathing real fast but was real still. Then he peed on her. She put him on the floor and his breathing went back to normal but laid still, eyes open, did not blink, legs straight out and stiff. She petted him and called his name. I was frantically running around to take him to the hospital. She said all of a sudden he got up on his own and wagged his tail real fast like he just realized she was there with him. Then he acted normal. I still took him to the hospital to be checked. Scared us like crazy.

Not sure what you are saying about the temperature and white cells. Are you saying individually they can cause a seizure? His temp was normal at the hospital. His white cell count was 6,000 something and 5,000 something is normal so it wasn't that high. Both vets said the high count could be from the shot. When he is done with the antibiotics we are going to recheck the white cell count.

You're lucky no rabies shot in NZ. Are you required by law to get any vaccines? All that stuff is such crap. Money for the drug companies. It's also a bunch of crap that they can have your dog put to sleep if he doesn't have the shot. Just makes me sick. I worried about that with Scoop. He had his last rabies shot when he was 6 1/2 years old so he was good till 9 1/2. For 3 years he was illegal. His oncologist said he shouldn't get any more shots after he had mast cell tumors removed.

The last couple of days Archie seems like he is tired more than he had been to me unless it's me just worrying.

Does anyone know if seizures can cause any permanent damage of any kind?

[Budsters Mom]

Oh Vicki,
I feel terrible that this happened right after we discussed it. We don't know with absolute certainty that Archie's seizure was caused by his rabies shot, but that is my feeling. We also don't know that if you'd waited a few more weeks whether it would've made any difference.

I research everything that a vet tells me. My vets had many things wrong when it came to Cushing protocol. I think they do their best, but they just don't know everything. I go in armed with information so I have plenty of questions to ask. Buddy got the care he needed because my vet knew that I was up on things and had done my research. It was that diligence that got my GP to consult with the neurosurgeon (at the specialty hospital)on Buddy's behalf. That neurosurgeon actually monitored Buddy's treatment through my vet at no cost to me. It is no different with shots or anything else that they want to do. I do my homework first and then I go in prepared. I get my money's worth at those appointments! It is easy to Google anything and get all the information you can possibly need. You are your own pups best advocate.

I sincerely hope that Archie's seizure was an isolated event. Since your vet said that they were going to follow up with a report to the manufacturer, please request a copy of that to make sure that it has been filed. If they know that you are going to follow up on it, they are more likely to get it done in a reasonable time frame. Be sure to note dates and times on everything.

[scoora]

Kathy,
You're right. It could have happened no matter when he got the shot but I keep thinking what if it would have made a difference if we would have waited another week or two. Just kicking myself. I can't believe it happened either after talking about it. Gus was scheduled to get his this week. The vet said at Archie's appointment that we can wait till he's 4 months old which will be on the 4th. Thanks for the advise. I am going to talk to the vet's office tomorrow and see what they say about it. Since I just talked to the vet after she was done with appointments on Friday it was 8:00PM and she won't be in tomorrow so I'll see what the girls have to say. I looked at the website you linked me to on Thursday night but it was so late and his appointment was 9:30AM I didn't have a chance to be too prepared. I did question if it was too soon after his distemper shot and mentioned my concerns about the side affects but she said he is at the age where he is required by law that he is supposed to have it. I did not know the website when she asked me.

If I have a chance tomorrow I'll see if the pet store can either give me contact info or if they will contact Archie's breeder or the people who adopted Archie's sister and see if there is any history of seizures or if his sister had any problems. The regular vet mentioned about his parents. That's where I got that idea from.
Thanks again for you help.
Hugs

[Trish]

Hi Vicki
I was just thinking if there was anything else going on like an infection to cause high temp it could cause a seizure as it does in kids, but as his temp was OK then not likely. White cell elevation can be a sign of infection which often goes with a high temp, but his is not up very much and I would agree with your vets putting it down to the shot.

We do not require any shots here by law in NZ, they used to do compulsory dosing for hydatids years and years but we do not have that anymore as it was eradicated. They recommend the usual parvo and kennel cough which they must have if they are going to be boarded anywhere. They also give canine distemper, leptospirosis and hepatitis. This year Flynn's vet decided he did not have to have anything which I was pleased about.

That does sound scary, hopefully a one-off for Archie. Any lasting effects or is he back to bouncing around again? They are keeping you on your toes Vicki but I am pretty sure you can well do without it!! xx

[mcdavis]

I hope that Archie's seizure was a one-off, and definitely agree with Kathy that you should ensure the vet reports it to the manufacturer. Also make a note of the location of the vaccination.

Living in England until a few years ago I was totally ignorant about rabies shots, and when Hamish had his first at 12 years old the vet didn't give me any information or warnings (but as it was in the UK they probably didn't know much about it either - they only gave rabies vaccines to pets who were emigrating).

It was only when he was 15 and the local vet raised some concerns over his age that I got worried and started to do some research.
Then I met someone who's dog actually died the day after it's rabies shot. I wanted to use a particular vaccine and only one vet in our area had it - I was surprised at the nonchalance, ignorance and comments that I was paranoid from some of the surgeries that I called..... One actually joked that it was very unlikely anything would happen, and that nothing ever really did happen, and was slightly taken aback when I told her otherwise.