(Adrenal tumor) desperately want info - my sweet little boy has passed

[Fellasmom]

Hi,
I just came across this board today and am hoping you could help me.I brought my 12yr old chihuahua to the vet last week because I noticed that his abdomen appeared distended.Vet said that it may be Cushings and ran a chem 25,UA,CBC and T4.He stated that he doesn't usually like to treat Cushings as the side effects from the medications were sometimes worse than the disease itself.He called me the next day and told me all the labs were okay except the alk phos was in the 900's which sometimes does indicate Cushings and that he wanted to do an ultrasound which is scheduled for this week.I've been looking up everything I can about Cushings and I am a wreck and have been crying on and off ever since!I know I'm sort of all over the place here,but please bear with me as I am an emotional wreck!I started to notice little changes in him in the last few months.Everything I read about Cushings says that symptoms occur over a long period of time but that usually owners just don't pick up on them.His symptoms included a ravenous appetite,increased number of bowel movements,increased urination and never ending thirst.The distended abdomen is what prompted the vet visit.He also has developed a dry and crusty nose,seems to always be sniffing,and snores louder.When I put all the symptoms together,I tried to pinpoint when they had al started.I know for a fact that in November and December he had NO symptoms-they started at the earliest in Jan/Feb..The thing that has me concerned and stumped is that I started him on Glucosamine Chondroitin with MSM and Omega 3 and 6 beginning of Feb.I stopped it on March 29th.Within 3 or 4 days of stopping it,his water intake and urination has dropped down to normal or maybe a tad above normal.His large appetite has slightly decreased.His abdomen is still distended but doesn't feel as tight.I've spent days looking up adverse effects of glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM and Omega...although it is not very common,it does say that dogs can expericence bloating and increased BM's,rare cases of liver inflammation with elevated alk phos,rare cases of iodine induced hyperthyroidism.Whatever it is,it seems as though symptoms came on very suddenly(over a month or two.I can't say when he developed abd distention but I have pics of him in feb and you can clearly see a curvature of his abdomen-no distention then.It seems as though these all came on so rapidly as if it were triggered by something.Speaking of rapidly,I know this sounds crazy,but vet commented last week that his coat looked good.Two days ago,as I was petting him,he erupted in large amounts of dandruff covering his entire body from head to tail.By morning,his coat was fine and no sign of dandruff.So,here are my many questions and thank you in advance for being so patient with me!
1.If this were Cushings,would symptoms start to resolve without treatment?
2.Has anyone ever had any or heard of any similar adverse reactions to glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM?
3.If it IS Cushings,what are your thoughts about to treat vs not to treat? Thank you!!

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi and welcome to you and your sweet boy,

So sorry for the reasons that brought you here but glad you found us, as we will help in any way we can.

Hi,

1.If this were Cushings,would symptoms start to resolve without treatment?

Iatrogenic Hyperadrenocorticism is the only type of Cushing's that doesn't require medication because this kind of Cushing's is caused by giving a dog steroids over a period of time. Treatment for Iatrogenic Hyperadrenocorticism is to slowly taper the use of the steroids.

2.Has anyone ever had any or heard of any similar adverse reactions to glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM?

I have never read about this but all dogs are different and react differently.

3.If it IS Cushings,what are your thoughts about to treat vs not to treat? Thank you!!

A Cushing savvy vet will not initiate any treatment unless there are strong symptoms and a comfirmed diagnosis. Cushing's can be difficult to get a confirmed diagnosis for because not all tests for Cuahing's are 100% accurate at diagnosing Cushing's and any non-adrenal illness will create false positive results on all Cushing tests.

If you could post the results of all tests that were done on your boy, we would appreciate it, we only need the abnormal findings. I think an ultrasound is a good start, u/s' are an amazing diagnostic tool which gives a visual of all the organs.

If you have any questions please do not hesitate to ask them.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Fellasmom]

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly!The fact that the increased thirst and urination have drastically decreased to normal or almost normal has me completely confused!He has been off the Glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM for about 10 days now and honestly,if it weren't for noticing his distended belly the other day,I prob wouldn't have even thought anything was wrong!He has never been on any medication.Even his appetitie has changed but very slightly.He still is always hungry but doesn't practically take my hand off when I give him a treat,which was a new behavior for him.My experiences with vets have been mixed.Some overprescribe,some overlook while others never think "outside the box".As you pointed out,my vet DID say something like he doesn't like to treat unless the symptoms call for it.We are new to the area and he is a new vet as of last week and so far he seems to be okay.I will get a copy of the labs when I drop him off for the US on Thurs and post them.I have no coping mechanisms when it comes to even the thought of my baby being sick!I found him in the streets 10 yrs ago and am thankful everyday he is a part of my life!Just wanted to ask...what is the FIRST or best test to determine if this may be cushings?And if it is cushings,is the outcome better with treatment?Are you shortening a dog's lifespan if symptoms are mild and you dont treat?Just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing with the best possible outcome.Thank you!!

[molly muffin]

Hello and welcome to the forum. What a sweetheart, I'm so glad that you two found each other 10 years ago. Some things are just meant to be.

Okay, so first things first. Lets see if this is cushings. Since the symptoms have all decreased with the stoppage of the supplements I don't think we are at that diagnosis yet. If all the blood work is fine other than the Alkp and if symptoms clear up, then I would probably recheck the ALKP in about a month, keep him off the supplements during that time and see if any symptoms come back while he isn't on them and go from there.
If you go forward with the ultrasound (and that is up to you), then you'll be looking to see what the liver and adrenal glands look like. Are they enlarged, is one adrenal enlarged only, how does the kidney and gallbladder and pancreas look. Those are things you'd want to know from an ultrasound, however, you'd still need specific cushings testing and the bad news is that there is no one gold test for cushings. It's one of the hardest to diagnose. ACTH to monitor cortisol levels (and I would not do this if you think he had a reaction to the supplements at this time. I'd wait for at least a month to make sure his system was clear) and an LDDS to see if he is able to suppress cortisol production at both 4 and 8 hour. That is probably the test I would do if you want to do one now. And don't start any kind of treatment without the ACTH test.

Dogs can live our their normal lifespan with cushings treatment. However, you are basically treating the symptoms, so without those, it's hard to know when you should or should not start treatment. Some have advocating starting earlier, but most of the specialist are still waiting for stronger symptoms to show to begin treatment. The medicines are nothing to play around with, but they can be life saving once you know that you need to treat and that this is a confirmed diagnosis. A good, experienced vet used to using the medications or one that is willing to learn with you if very important for a good prognosis.

I hope that helps and I didn't over whelm you too much.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

Just wanted to ask...what is the FIRST or best test to determine if this may be cushings?And if it is cushings,is the outcome better with treatment?Are you shortening a dog's lifespan if symptoms are mild and you dont treat?Just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing with the best possible outcome.Thank you!!

If the vet has ruled out other possible health issues for his symptoms then, if this were me, I would have an urine cortisol:creatinine ratio (UC:CR) test done. The UC:CR is the simplest, least expensive test to rule out Cushing's. One just needs a sample of urine, preferably a 3 day pooled sample, which is done at home and then taken into the vets office.

[Fellasmom]

Wanted to thank you all for sharing so much valuable information.I work overnights so I'm always able to reply as soon as I would like but I really appreciate your help!Fella is having his ultrasound today and I am sick to my stomach!Although his drinking and urinating have decreased,he just isn't "right"-so many changes and I'm so worried.His coat is dull,dry with dandruff and i've noticed small brown spots on his belly.I think his hair is thinning as I can feel his body/muscles,etc more when I pet him.(not sure if that makes sense).I stopped looking up symptoms online because it was driving me crazy.I have this horrible sense of urgency because the symptoms seem to have come on so quickly.Any thoughts on holistic vets?I've only had one experience and she was wonderful.I did contact her and she told me to get a "full adrenal panel" and said she has a dog with Cushings herself.I set up an appt because I fig it can't hurt and it may very well help some of the symptoms.Also,vet is new to us and not sure if he is an interal med.If not,would you advise to switch to one for furthur workup?Thanks in advance for all your kindness!

[Simba's Mom]

Hello and welcome to you and Fella, you have found an awesome place to be, lots of info and encouragement..take care, we are here for you and your furbaby!

[Harley PoMMom]

An Internal Medicine Specialist (IMS), I believe, is always good to have on board. They are usually much more knowledgeable and experienced than a regular GP when it comes to multiple health issues.

I am wondering if the holistic vet was referring to the full adrenal panel that is sent to the University of Tennessee? If so, I would not recommend having that done as of yet.

Some of the symptoms your boy has can be related to a thyroid problem, has his T4 been checked recently?

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Fellasmom]

I was just told by the vet that Fella's ultrasound was not good.He said he has a large adrenal tumor that is ?shadowing or spread to collateral circulation.I am DEVASTATED.I was not prepared at all to hear this.At worst, I thought it might indicate Cushings and I would have time to seek treatment.Hard to imagine when I look at him and he is playing,wagging his tail and eating like a champ!I thought we would have so much more time together.I'm so blown away but want to stay strong for him because I don't want his sweet little face to see me crying.He said some people put them down when learning of diagnosis while others wait.He said it's not painful for him but that he runs risk of having a blood clot.He mentioned that some dogs can have surgery and recommended an Internal Med vet to discuss further options/2nd opinion.I did make an appt for tomorrow.Can anyone please help me with any similar experiences you may have had?I'm so afraid and my heart is broken.

[frijole]

We will be moving this post into your original thread to keep the story together but as you are upset I am going to wait a bit ok?

First off - your vet sounds like a rookie at this and those are not words he should have said. Lots of dogs have adrenal tumors. And they live. It is cushing's. It is adrenal cushings. It can be treated the same way (meds) OR you can see if surgical removal is an option. We have had plenty of successful surgeries here.

The key is to find a specialist that has alot of experience. Where do you live? We can perhaps help you with that.

I want to note that there are rare adrenal tumors that are not cushings. My Annie had one. Hers was a very long story but despite it she lived for over 2 yrs with it. Please cry but then gather yourself and prepare to get strong and get up to speed on adrenal tumors and finding the best help you can. Again, we are here to help ok? Kim