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Glad to hear the infection has at least calmed down some...that's a start :) You'll probably look at a lengthy antibiotic course this time. And a skinbiopsy, and possibly allergietesting, will definately be in place here. There must be some underlying, most likely immune-system, cause.
I am really, really curious as what may be the outcome of this eventually..as I am sure you are too :) Good luck with the vetvisit, today or tomorrow :)
Sas :)
Right now, I think I'm actually hoping for it to be the staph hypersensitvity because apparently that can be diagnosed just from a biopsy and the treatment seems to be pretty straightforward and successful (a series of injections of small amounts of staph with the goal of reprogramming the immune system)? But apparently that disorder is pretty rare.
I'm more downhearted about the prospect of allergy testing or trying to diagnose a more illusive immune system disorder :o. We do not have insurance for either of the girls, and I'm told that allergy testing here is very, very expensive. And since everything else appears to be normal right now for Luna (labwork, behavior), it's hard to know what direction in which to look in terms of other disorders. But that's why we have the vets here to guide us, after all!
I will be taking her in either later this afternoon or first thing tomorrow. I will definitely report back after I get a report.
Hopefully you can find out enough by just a skin biopsy to not need to do other things. If it's a staph, then it could just be a very resistant one. Staphs in humans can be tricky to get rid of entirely, so makes sense it might be the same for dog. The least little thing can bring it back out.
Let us know what the vet says.
big hugs to you and belly rubs to Luna and Peg
We are back, and overall I feel better about things :). We have a short-term gameplan, so that's good. First off, even though he did not see her two weeks ago, he said it's evident that the treatment is improving things even though she is still sprouting some new spots. Like you say, Sharlene, skin infections can just get very entrenched and take persistent treatment to eradicate. He wants us to give the antibiotics and baths a full month before moving onward, with one exception. And that is to change her food to a novel protein, limited ingredient formula. I was pretty much expecting that and probably should have tried it earlier, but she's just always done so well on her current food that I hated to switch. Food sensitivity may not play any role in this at all, but that's an easy thing for us to alter.
If the infection recurs or persists beyond the month, he will certainly consider a biopsy. He said it will involve sedating her and taking six "punch" samples from areas with lesions. Each punch will take a couple of stitches to sew up. But even before doing that, we may want to consider trying the treatment for staph hypersensitivity. He is well familiar with it, and printed out the technical professional blurb given to the vets there by the immunotherapeutics lab that supplies them with the antigen. They (the lab) don't necessarily even recommend a biopsy beforehand. They say the treatment can be tried on any dog with recurrent idiopathic staph that "ought" to be responsive to antibiotics. Either it will work or it won't. But there's a specific protocol that has to be followed re: concurrent antibiotic treatment and we do not fit that right now. And really, you have to first establish that antibiotics alone will not resolve the infection. Since Luna is showing improvement right now, we need to just try a longer course first.
He also made me feel better by telling me that staph skin infections are really common in dogs, and Luna's case really is not all that bad in comparison to many he has seen. This is not to minimize the fact that we need to treat it seriously, but he really thought she looked pretty good today. So I feel better, and she is glad to be home again although she wasn't quite the scaredy-cat today that she sometimes is :o.
And Kathy, I actually think Peg may wish she was getting all the baths ("dog massages") that Luna is getting. But for sure, Peg is glad that Luna is the one being hauled in to the vet!!! ;) ;)
Happy you are feeling better about things :) And eventhough Luna is not atopic, with the staph infections these past couple of months, there's no way her skinbarrier is in good shape at this moment. In atopic dogs, the focus has shifted very much to repairing the skinbarrier. Here's a link to an artice that explains the skinbarrier, what it means when it is not functioning properly and what you can do to help repair it. There are spot-on's, sprays and shampoos especially to help repair the skinbarrier. And of course, you need to bath Luna with her medicated shampoo (at least for now) but you can for example use a moisterizing product that will help the skinbarrier after her medicated bath.
I use 2 different spot-on's with Quincy (they both adress another part of the skinbarrier), the Allerderm Spot-On and the Dermoscent Essential 6, both mentioned in the article. And I use the Douxo shampoo and spray, also mentioned in the article :)
Well, just read the article, I am sure you will find it very informational and give you perhaps some good ideas to support Luna and her skin :)
http://www.avsg.net/files/5514/0511/...useDVMACVD.pdf
Have a nice evening,
Sas :)
Almost 2 weeks since your last update on Luna...curious if the continued antibiotic and medicated baths are improving her skin/staph infection :)
Sas :)
I was thinking the same thing.:confused:
Awww girls, thanks so much for asking. Luna will be finished with 30 days of the Simplicef on Friday. Right now, we are still bathing her twice weekly and as of this week she is fully transitioned to the limited ingredient food. Overall, her symptoms have definitely subsided. I did find yet one more fresh lesion over the weekend, but I did not find any when we bathed her today. I am supposed to report to our vet by the end of the week, and we'll decide where to go from here.
My own thought is that there will probably be value in continuing with the antibiotic for a bit longer. It seems as though we may be on the cusp of turning the tide and I do not want to lose ground again now.
That article was definitely interesting, Sas. We are giving Luna oral omega 3,6,9 supplementation, but I will ask about adding a topical spray or spot-on product. I see Duoxo has several different shampoos and sprays -- what are you using on Quince?
Marianne
Good to hear that Luna's symptoms are subsiding :) I agree with your idea of prolongueing the antibiotics (and bathing) since it could take even 8 weeks of treatment and it would be a shame if you stopped now :)
For Quincy I use the Douxo Seborrhea shampoo and conditioner, since she has Seborrhea so that makes sense, right? :p But they also have anti bacterial shampoos and conditioner. But since you are already using a medicated shampoo, I would stay with that. I think I would go for a good spot-on to support the skin (function and barrier) and don't use a shampoo at this time. You can start with a shampoo/conditioner when the current infection has cleared and the medicated baths are no longer needed. Then you could start using a supporting shampoo and conditioner to help Luna's skin in maintaining the best possible condition which will increase her natural abbility to fight off skin infections :)
Let us know what your vet thinks and what he suggests...
Sas :)
Yes, I think your advice makes sense, Sas. ;)
Here's another question for you, though. I am looking into both the Allerderm and Dermoscent spot-ons, and see that the Dermoscent Essential 6 contains essential oils. I know that Leslie has been cautioning folks about using essential oils with dogs because of possible toxicity issues. Maybe she'll have a chance to comment on this specific product, but I was just wondering whether you have any general concerns yourself about the essential oils contained in the Dermoscent.
The Allerderm seems to be a lipid complex and I do see a couple of positive research studies relating to its use, so I'm thinking I might be more inclined to start first with it?
Marianne
I looked that product up when Sas first mentioned it and started to caution you both but changed my mind since I figured you had already seen the links I have posted about EOs. I couldn't use this product myself because of all the EOs in it. The biggest concern are those EOs that are made from citrus plants and contain the constituent d-limoene. However, all EOs are the most toxic part of the plant. I use EOs but very, very sparingly as a preservative in my herbal salves. The salves are never used on animals. The only time I use EOs with my dogs is on their very last day in a Spiritual manner, never as a treatment. I can't use Colloidal Silver either. ;)
I agree that EO's can be harmfull if not used correctly. There are people buying, let's say, a bottle of teatreeoil and will put some drops of it directly on a dog's or cat's skin, for example. That is a big no-no...of course :) It's too concentrated to use it in that manner and there might possibly be other contra indications. (I am by no means an expert on the subject)
But the way the EO's are used in the spot-on's or other topical treatments, prescribed by my veterinary dermatologist specialist, in my personal opinion, is safe. I do know, that they help Quincy enormously. Till this day, her kidney- and liverlevels are perfect so they haven't caused any changes there yet.
I went back to look at the links you have provided and even there it is mentioned that "For dogs, essential oils can be used in a variety of ways, from bathing to calming the nerves through diffusion.
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/022909_pe...#ixzz3i2ZjXOPz
Anyway, we all have our own believes and reasons why we do, or don't do certain things and that's the way it should be, right? :) We are all our own persons and do the best we can to take care of those we love...
I do have a factsheet of what ingredient does what in canine shampoo's and such, just don't know how to post it here :confused:
Sas :)
:D Many feel EOs are safe; I do not. Nor do I consider Natural News a reliable source of info. ;) But neither am I an expert. Lots of folks I know use them and say they are beneficial. All I can do is share what little I know and let everyone make their own decisions concerning what they feel comfortable using on their babies. I have made my decision and will not use them on mine. :)
Ladies, thanks to you both for your thoughts and comments. I'll keep on doing a bit of researching on my own, too. For the moment, the Allerderm spot-on sounds most appealing to me, anyway, and I probably want to stick to only one new add-on at a time so as to better judge any adverse affects. The vet may not want me to add anything at all quite yet, since we're not yet very far removed from active infectious lesions cropping up. We may just stick with the oral antibiotic/Omegas and bathing for a couple more weeks, in addition to the new food. I'm fixing to put a call in later today.
Just a thought you were probably already considered....
You have been going through a drastic food change with Luna due to possible allergic components. Adding anything else new at this point, even topical preparations can make it very difficult to pinpoint a possible allergen and it's hard anyway. Please discuss anything topical with your vet before adding it to the mix.
Yes, good point, Kathy. I totally agree that it's best not to change more than one thing at once.
OK, talked with the vet and we are both on the same page. He thinks it's a good idea to extend the Simplicef for two more weeks. We will continue with the medicated shampoo, although we can stretch the bathing to once a week rather than twice-weekly if we we want.
He is actually very familiar with Allerderm, Sas, and says that they were stocking it their at the clinic for a period of time. Research does support its use. However, their own impression was that they were not seeing observable improvement in the patients who were using it, so they stopped routinely recommending it. However, he is absolutely fine with me giving it to Luna if I would like to do so. Since it has only been a few days since we saw a new active lesion, we think it will be better to hold off on adding any topical for a little while longer. But if Luna remains lesion-free for the next couple of weeks, then I very well may add the Allerderm at the time we discontinue the antibiotic.
So that's where we are. He agreed I can add in a probiotic over the weekend to help offset the lengthy antibiotic course. I wanted to do that earlier, but not in the midst of the food change. She seems to have adjusted to the new food with no problem, though, so I feel better about now adding the probiotic, too.
So nice when you and your vet are on the same page, makes sometimes difficult situations less stressful :) Will be curious to see if the additional 2 weeks of Simplicef will be helpful, I soooo hope it will :)
With things like Allerderm spot-on, it is not curing anything, we know that. It cannot replace anti biotics, Prednison, Cyclosporine or whatever else is needed, it's merely supportive. I take Quincy to a specalised dermatology clinic, the department of allergies. (within the clinic they have seperate departments that specialise in different skinconditions) It's from my dermatoligist that I have learned that the focus has shifted a lot more to the skin...in allergies. But also, that it takes a dilligent owner, keeping up with a strict regime applying spot-ons, to do the bathing according to the schedule, to go the extra mile by washing the dogs feet everytime after a walk, to even vacuum the fur after walks (to get rid of the allergens), to wash everything at 60 degrees C and stuff that can't be washed that hot, needs to go, to watch the skin like a hawk and start applying betadine as soon as you notice a spot, no matter how tiny... etc. I am used to doing all these things by now, have established a routine by now and of course, Quincy isn't that big and that makes it a lot easier :D What I mean to say is, it is never one thing ( for example a spot-on) but a whole range of different things :) And the succes of the treatment is in the hands of the owner and how well he/she keeps up with everything :) So adding "only" a spot-on, could more then likely not give a significant improvement...it's everything combined and all these measures need each other in order to have the best result possible. It's the spot-on, the essential fatty acids (by the way, I use the Allerderm for that as well), the baths, the keeping the environment "clean" (as less provoking allergens as possible), etc. So I would even go as far as saying that "routinely" prescribing a spot-on (and nothing else) and expecting it to cause improvements would be nonsense indeed :D
Anyway, keep up the good work with Luna and we will be keeping our fingers crossed that in two more weeks, she will even be better and hopefully she will be cured :)
Sas :)
It's been another week so it's time to update us on the girls. Do not forget to add Nurse Peg into the mix.;)
Luna should still be on another week of Simplicef. Did you go ahead and start the probiotic to help replace some of the good bacteria lost? Has her skin settled down? Have you noticed any new lesions? How is she doing with her change in diet? What novel protein did you change her to? Did you change Peg's diet also, or leave her be because of her weakness for pancreatitis flareups?
Now for Peg....How is her mobility? Did the cyst on her paw finally heal? Generally how is she doing otherwise? I realize I should be asking on Peg's thread, but I'm too lazy to go there, so I'm doing it together. I'm bad!:D
So many questions.:confused:
That should be enough to keep you busy for now.;)
Thanks so much for checking in on us again, Kathy! I will add a genuine update later on in the week, but you are right -- we are completing the final week of Simplicef. Everything is stable with both girls right now, and as I say, I'll write more in a couple of days when I have a better idea as to where we go next in terms of treatment/monitoring.
And thanks for your additional thoughts, Sas -- I'll comment on them, as well. ;)
OK, I’m finally back with the overdue update! First, a quick note re: Peg – she is definitely continuing to slow down and is overdue for her monitoring bloodwork. She’s been really hobbling again lately after slipping and falling on the kitchen floor when she rushed to greet her dad Monday evening, so I’ve given her a couple days worth of Previcox. But I hope she'll soon straighten out again and on most mornings, she is still eager for our leisurely short stroll through the neighborhood and the opportunity to meet and greet her friends along the way. Overall, I think life is still mostly good for her, even though ever so much more sedate. I’ll add a better update to her own thread after I get her in for her labwork within the next couple of weeks
Turning to Luna, I’m relieved to report that it’s now been around a month since her last active lesion. Sas, thanks so much for the info re: the Douxo shampoos and also the Allerderm. I am now using the Duoxo chlorhexidine shampoo for Luna, and their seborrhea shampoo for Peg. These really seem to be quality products with uniformly good reviews, so I understand why the brand was recommended to you and I am grateful for the info you’ve passed on. I also have a bottle of their chlorhexidine spray to use in between Luna’s weekly shampoos or if a suspicious spot pops up.
I managed to order in a box of Allerderm pipettes that were made in France. I have discovered there's an issue here with the FDA: they are now declaring one of the ingredients a “drug,” so to be legally made/sold in the U.S., the product would have to go through the whole FDA approval process. So it is taking a bit of creative energy, but I was able to get my first box imported for Luna and hope that I can still get more in the future. I totally understand that the Allerderm is just one piece of the overall treatment, but it looks to be a good and useful product so I want to give it a try. I am applying it weekly now, after Luna’s coat has dried from her bath.
She seems to be tolerating her new food with no problem (palatability is NEVER an issue with the girls, but she also seems to be fine GI-wise). So I am crossing my fingers that we will be able to keep this skin condition under control using the diet change, oral omega capsules, and the topical products. Also, my 20-year-old vacuum cleaner just broke, so I’ve had to buy a new one that is a lot more efficient, so that’s probably also a good thing for us all! ;) :)
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Will keep an eye on Peg's thread in the time to come but I can picture her strolling down the street, meeting and greeting her friends :) Hope she will be strolling and meeting and greeting for a long time to come...it's an important task in life, after all :)
Regarding Luna....Yippie!! That's good news, no new lesions for the past month or so, I am really happy to read this :D I sure hope you will notice a difference in their skin/fur with the help of the topical products and shampoos and such... And you won't believe this but my vacuum cleaner too broke down, just after I had the "atopy"diagnosis, so I too bought a new one that was more equipt to deal with allergens and such... I was rather glad it decided to break down at that time and not 2 months sooner, I would have most likely not bought the best option for an atopic dog/person... :p
Welcome to the bathing, spraying, applying, washing and vacuuming club :D It tends to be a bit of work, but if I look at Quincy, it's soooo well worth it :)
Glad the change in food is not causing any GI issues...and that Luna is eating it without a problem.
Wishing you and yours a nice, uneventfull weekend,
Sas :)
Found a new lesion this morning. I saw Nurse Peg sniffing Luna's back last night and it worried me. Just like before, reappeared about one month after stopping the oral antibiotic. She had a medicated bath just two days ago. :( :( :(
Maybe it's time to try the staph "innoculation" injections since it is antibiotic-sensitive but keeps recurring.
I am feeling downhearted.
Oh poor Luna. I am so very sorry this is continuing to happen.
T.
:(:( I'm so sorry for you both. It does seem a different approach is needed since this keeps coming back. Let us know how she's is and what you and vet decide to do.
((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))
So frustrating when things seem to be under control and, bam, you are back to square one! Please give Luna a gentle hug from Abbie & I.
dang it. :( Have you asked the vet why it would come back so soon after stopping antibiotics. It's like it knocks it back just enough but not all the way out of her system, so as soon as the antibiotic isn't there to hold it back, it comes back fully.
Would a different antibiotic work better perhaps?
Well it sure was a good thing that Nurse Peg was on duty, but this wasn't the news that any of us wanted to hear.:o
I am so sorry Marianne. :o I totally agree with you. I do believe it's time to move on to something else, possibly the injections. You don't want Luna to stop responding to the antibiotics altogether and the lesions to run amok. What a mess! I wish I had some words of wisdom and answers for you. Since I don't, I'll send you many hugs and tons of healing energy for both our girls.
Tell Nurse Peg to keep up the good work!:D
Yeah, I think the the condition of Luna's skin or her immune system is the problem rather than the antibiotic not working. Each time, the Simplicef has done what it is supposed to as far as clearing the infection, and this last time we continued the med for two full weeks after seeing the last active lesion. But Luna can't permanently stay on antibiotics, and there is always going to be staph naturally returning to her skin. But how to keep it from over-colonizing....?
I treated the spot with topicals yesterday and gave her another full bath today. I realize I was being unrealistic in hoping we'd never see another spot :o. Obviously there is something abnormal at the root of this, and unless we can figure that out we will just be trying to minimize the outbreaks. So I guess we will see over the next week or so whether at least we can keep a lid on things by using the topicals or instead whether the infection really breaks through in multiple areas again. If it does, I think I will press for trying the innoculation injections, although I think the protocol for that requires another six weeks of antibiotics in conjunction <SIGH>
One good thing is that Luna does not seem to mind her baths. I guess it feels like a nice warm puppy massage to her. So I am trying to make them be nice, happy times for the two of us to share together. The shampoo has to stay on for ten minutes, so I tell her what a good girl she is and sing little songs to her. She really IS such a good girl to put up with all of this. :)
AWWWWW!!!! Thanks for such a sweet visual! :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by labblab
Sorry to read about Luna, Marianne. I, like Kathy, do like the visual of bath time. I used to have hubby feed Zoe chicken, a tiny piece every minute. Well, you knew Zoe, anything for chicken:rolleyes:
I hope a clear path forward is figured out, though I know you will have alternatives figured out.
Big hugs to you and Luna and Peg.
I think it's time to start looking for a primary cause because it certainly looks like there is a primary cause and without treating the primary cause you will keep stuck with these returning infections. The fact they keep returning is pretty much "proof" there is another underlying cause...and it needs to be adressed will you ever solve this problem. Seems like a visit to a dermatologist is in order... :) But I do understand how disheartening this must be...
Saskia :)
Sas, I do agree there must be a primary cause, but I'm fearful it may be illusive. All of Luna's labwork is normal, and her behavior is all totally normal (appetite, energy, GI function, etc.). I think there are still two more avenues that we could pursue with our regular vet: the staph innoculations and/or skin biopsy. If neither of those are productive or informative, then we really have no choice but to move on to a dermatologist should the infection continue to blossom.
I may be wrong, but if no other abnormalities are identified, I'm guessing that general allergy testing would be the main contribution of a dermatologist. That will be very, very expensive here and I confess to a degree of pessimism re: the outcome based on the experiences of friends' pets and also human family members. It seems as though you are having success with Quincy's desensitization? And obviously that is what we would hope for, too, if that is Luna's problem. But I know folks who have spent small fortunes on allergy testing/treatment and not much added success to show for it. So rightly or wrongly, I'm viewing that as kind of a last resort.
Although apparently it's rare, Luna does perfectly fit the profile of a dog who is hypersensitive to staph itself. So I still believe I'd want to try those innoculations before moving onward with other allergy testing. And since our vet is also willing and capable of doing a biopsy, the pathology report would be the same regardless of who is submitting the samples. So that is my line of thinking at the moment, to explore those first. But if things worsen again rapidly and we can find no other answers, we will have to move on to a specialist.
But please know that I always appreciate your thoughts and suggestions so very much, even though I may not always act upon them (at least not immediately :rolleyes:). I truly value your knowledge, experience, and caring. I thank you, and everybody else who has taken the time to read through Luna's thread to offer their thoughts to me. I appreciate you all so very much.
I fully understand, Marianne :) It just that I am not used to general vets doing "dermatologists" things :D Here I would need to go to a dermatologist for a skin biopsy and/or the innoculations. But if your general vet can do them....of course, that's easier (and cheaper) :D
I think it's Linda (spiceysmom) who told me her Spicey too did wonderfully with the monthly injections... :) About 75 till 80 % of all dogs will improve with the injections...so yes, for some dogs it's not the solution unfortunately.
And yes, the allergy testing is expensive and so are the bottles with the injectionfluids...but if it works, it's cheaper than having to pay for all the visits to the vet, the testing, the anti biotics, the prednisone and anything else they might need for the constant infections (ears, eyes, skin, paws...etc).
Let's just hope that Luna is hypersensitive to staph and nothing else and that she will respond great to the injections :)
Sas :)
That's actually one thing that makes me suspect staph hypersensitivity as opposed to other allergies: Luna has never exhibited any other allergy issues whatsoever. No itching, scratching, paw licking, eye/ear infections at all. Peg is the poster child for all those types of problems, so I definitely know what that looks like :o. But aside from an occasional dirty ear, we've never had any visible allergic issues with Luna. She doesn't even itch or scratch the lesions now. So that's a big reason why it's hard for me to want to launch into a bunch of allergy testing unless there's really nothing else to be checked.
Hmmmm..... It's hard for me to think that Luna's problem is an allergy when she doesn't exhibit any allergy symptoms.:confused:
I am super glad that she's feeling OK and am anxious to see how all of this unfolds. I am not too concerned because nothing slips by Nurse Peg.;)
Hang in there Marianne. You'll get it figured out.
How are things with Luna? :) Could you keep the infection contained to that one lesion or did it (I hope not of course) turn into multiple lesions...?
Sas :)
It's been a little over a week now since the single lesion popped up, and it is now healed and I've not found any more. Fortunately, Nurse Peg has shown no new interest in Luna's back. :)
Overall, Luna's skin generally looks much better. I thank you so much for the Douxo and Allerderm recommendations. I really think the Douxo shampoo is superior to what I was using previously and I am going to recommend it to my vet.
Since things have not gotten any worse this week, I am holding off on taking any new steps. We will be taking Peg in for labwork in two weeks, and I can discuss Luna with him then, too. If we can hold Luna to nothing more than an intermittent spot or two, I'll actually be pretty happy because apparently even with successful staph desensitization, occasional lapses can still be expected.
Ohhhhh I am truly happy to hear this :) And with time, the Douxo and Allerderm will even have more effect...so Luna will improve even more :)
I did think of something else...you could ask your vet. Maybe it's an option to, if need be, to treat a new lesion with a Betadine solution? That also may help to contain/heal it.... just a thought. It's not aggressive but it is antiseptic :)
And yes, when I look at Quincy, the hyposensibilisation therapy works really well and it saves Quincy a lot of new occuring infections but she still has them, eventhough they are pretty rare now, but they are not completely gone. But I too am very happy with the current situation...I know how bad it was so this is a huge improvement :) I can imagine you feel the same way about Luna :)
It's nice to read such a positive update just before I go to sleep... :D
Sweet dreams in advance,
Saskia :)
I know I have yet to pop in on this thread, but I have been keeping along.
My personal opinion would be to go the biopsy route - this was how we diagnosed CC. And, my general vet did the biopsy. What she did do though, was to call the local derm vet (only one in town; Alaska!), and get advice on which specific lab to send the samples to, so as to get the right people looking at the sample. Not all labs are created equal, and the lab a derm vet uses may be different from what a GP vet would use for regular stuff.
Just my two cents!
Renee, that's a great suggestion if we do end up with a biopsy. Today is bath day so we'll really have a chance to check Luna again, but so far this week I've still not seen any evidence of new spots. If we can continue to stay on top of things, then maybe we have turned the tide on our own.
Sas, I am now using the Douxo chlorhexidine spray to treat any suspicious areas. I was able it to use on the new spot two weeks ago, and the area was vastly improved in just a couple of days. Like the shampoo, the spray has a skin strengthener as well as the chlorhexidine. I've been poring over the literature re: which antiseptic is best against surface skin bacteria, and chlorhexidine seems to win compared to everything else, including betadine. Apparently chlorhexidine has a significantly better initial kill rate and also may have residual activity. So you may want to try a bottle of the Douxo spray, too. I swear, those products seem great!