Squirt - my Queen has crossed The Bridge

[forscooter]

Hey Leslie...

I am SOOOOOO happy for you and Squirt!!!! Great numbers and let's just keep it all crossed for the panel! I have a beak crossed right now as you know so I'll send you my margarita so you can toast Squirt for me!

Love ya! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi ya'll,

Just got a call from the IMS and the UTK panel results came in last nite. I will pick up copies this afternoon and post them for you then (along with the first UTK results for comparison), but here's what Dr S told me -

* cortisol pre was high, but the post is normal (121 ng/m. with a normal up to 174 ng/ml) (YAHOOOOOO!!!!!)
* estradiol is still high but not as high as in Dec
* both progesterones still high but down from Dec, too
* everything else is normal

Dr O's recommendations are to continue the melatonin but switch to the hulls, 1/2 tsp/day...naturally since I have a yrs worth of purified lignans! Also, starting a maintenance dose of Lyso of 1/4 tab, 2x/week as a consideration (I assume that would be 250mg/week). The plan is to try the hulls for a month, have a recheck, and if the numbers aren't down, we will start the Lyso then. BUT, Dr O said no loading for her! YEAH!

As I am writing this, I am having second thoughts. ~~twitch twitch~~ Squirt was diagnosed in 8/08 with Atypical and the treatments she has been on (melatonin and lignans) have helped some but not as much as they could have. She has this urinary infection and since the stim last Wed., I have seen more signs - panting more, seeking cool tiles to lay on, sleeping more, asking to eat earlier and more often (but that is not a reliable sign for her ). However, water intake is down and need to urinate has not increased and no more accidents. She continues to lose her long hairs but not symmetrically, and still no bald spots or loss of the other two coats. Her back legs are stiffer but not weak or trembling. Still no pot belly. Glucose and thyroid levels are normal. Liver values slightly higher (ALKP - 260, ALT - 129) but not alarmingly so. I approved of the idea of trying the hulls first but now I am not sure. What do ya'll think? ~~ twitch twitch~~

Hugs,
Leslie and Squirt

[jrepac]

would the hulls actually have more lignans than the purified stuff? that is hard to believe....is it that the lignans are primarily present in the hulls? I would think both are good but one would figure the purified is better...but I could be dead wrong

[forscooter]

Leslie,

I would go with what Dr. O says....I would try one step at a time....and then if not, try the Lysodren. It is only one month....and I don't think it is unreasonable to try this first. If this works, you can save on the Lysodren....

that's my opinion...but I always would aim for a more natural approach if I could first....and you know I am not anti-Lysodren....just that I think this may be the better option if it works...

am I making sense? I am sooooo sleepy....

Love ya! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobers

[lulusmom]

would the hulls actually have more lignans than the purified stuff? that is hard to believe....is it that the lignans are primarily present in the hulls? I would think both are good but one would figure the purified is better...but I could be dead wrong

Yes, lignans are found in the hulls. Purified lignans have about 40mg per capsule and the pressed flax hull has 35mg per gram. There are 3 grams per tsp so if my math is right, dogs under 30 pounds should be given 1/2 tsp which equals 52.5mg. I found the pressed flax hulls on Ebay and out of curiosity corresponded with the company. I explained that UTK recommends lignans for treatment of atypical and referred them to Dr. Jack Oliver at UTK. They sent me the product as a thank you and since I just ran out of Lulu's six month supply of purified lignans, she is now on the pressed flax hulls. Luckily this stuff has a two year shelf life. I spoke to the owner once I discovered that UTK revised their treatment option page to include their product and they were thrilled that Dr. Oliver actually tested the product and liked it. How cool is that?

Leslie, as I recall you reduced the recommended dose of melatonin because Squirt seemed lethargic right? This may have a bearing on why the numbers aren't lower. With the estradiol being high, I'd definitely go with the higher lignan content in the pressed flax hull product. I'm sure you know that if the estradiol isn't restricted to the adrenals, Lysodren wouldn't really help anyway, so I'd give the additional lignans a chance to work for a month or two. If you are still seeing overt symptoms after that time, then you may want to consider the Lysodren maintenance dose.

I hope this helps.

Glynda

[Hotty's mom]

Hi Leslie,

I haven't been on in a while and just saw your post. I'm very glad to hear Squirt is continuing to do well

My baby Sausage-Elizabeth was spayed a few days ago, so I've been busy caring for her. She is so miserable with the horrible e-collar she's forced to wear for another 10 days

Deanna & forever Hotty

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi ya'll,

Well, after sitting up most of the nite twitching and watching my Sweet Bebe sleeping peacefully, I decided to stick with the original plan of trying the hulls first. Since we aren't dealing with cortisol, I just can't justify necrosis of the adrenals right now. I have ordered the hulls and will start them as soon as they arrive. Beth and Glynda, thanks so much for the input!

Jeff, I had wondered the same thing about the hulls VS the purified capsules. Not knowing the answer, I got the bottle and looked at the ingredients once again. It contains magnesium stearate from "vegetable source", and the cap itself "consists of gelatin." So, the capsules are more than just lignans; nothing that should cause harm or, I guess, interfere with the action of the lignans since Dr O approved this form VS the FSO. The pressed hulls, however, are pure according to the site:

http://www.flaxhulls.com/lignan.htm

"This product does not have anything else added to it. The hull of the flaxseed is removed by a mechanical process, then the oil is pressed out of the hulls with a standard low temperature press. (pressed flax hulls)"

So, I decided this may be why Dr O suggested this switch. After reading Glynda's excellent, informative post I understand more fully the recommendation. Squirt will be getting 12.5mg more of the lignans per day with the hulls VS the purified form.

Glynda, you are such a wonder! To do this research then contact the Carlson's on behalf of our Atypical babies, put them in contact with Dr O...well, it just shows how devoted you are to learning and helping all you can. Thank you for sharing what you have learned about the hulls!

Yes, I had cut Squirt's melatonin by 1/4. She was getting 1 1/2mg in the mornings and 3mg at nite. That was a little over a month ago. After the peeing incident, before we knew about the infection, I put her back on the full dose of 6mg/day VS 4 1/2mg/day. I heard your voice telling me how sad it would be to lose the ground we had gained and kicked myself in the butt! Sleeping a lot isn't nearly as harmful as these hormones!

Deanna! How wonderful to hear from you! We has Crys spayed a few months ago and she was back on her feet driving us all nuts the very next day! I had to keep her sedated to calm her down even a tiny bit so she wouldn't tear her stitches. By day three, I needed sedation! I hope Sausage-Elisabeth recovers quickly and easily soon and you can turn your twitcher down a notch! How is Debbie doing these days? And YOU? I sure do miss my Sister Twitcher here!

Hugs,
Leslie and Squirt

[Squirt's Mom]

Now, I have a question for all of you...if I ever knew this info, it has fallen through one of the many cracks in my feeble mind.

Which one is supposed to work on the estradiol produced outside the adrenals - melatonin or lignans, or both? and how?

Leslie

[gpgscott]

Hi Leslie,

It is my understanding the melatonin and lignans work in concert to reduce estradiol.

Good news on the report, at least all the numbers are moving in the right direction.

I agree with the others that I would hold out the addition of maint Lysodren as a final treatment option if this change in type of lignans and dose do not work. I have been seeing that freshness is a big issue withe the lignans and wonder if the pressed hull is more vital than the purified lignans. I wonder if the pressed hull has a freshness date how it is packaged and just how you are to store it.

Scott

[Squirt's Mom]

Thanks, Scott!

Yeah, I am happy to see the numbers moving in the right direction and I may well have played a part in them not being as good as they could by decreasing the melatonin dose. Geez, with all that could go wrong and I worried about her sleeping too much...she's an old lady like her mom. We have so much to be grateful for...I have to remind myself of that more often!

Hugs,
Leslie and Squirt