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Thread: Suffering old hound

  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Default Suffering old hound

    My maltese shitzu Oscar was diagnosed last year with Cushings. He had suffered a seizure in January 2022. The Cushings wasn't noted then by the Vet, I suppose he looked a little scraggly but the hair loss was starting to become apparent.

    By the time I noticed his quick upturn in thirst a few months later, and got him back to the vet, the Cushings has got hold of him, hair loss was much more clear, as was a pot bellied shape developing. He had an ultrasound I think and all seemed okay. Bllod and urine tests. A few of those hideous ACHT tests later, and finally we got to what seemed a good dose of Trilostane late last year at 0.25ml twice daily in his food. The thirst was much better, drinkin down to pretty much what we had hoped, and the panting stopped.

    Also he had developed these tremors last year, always focused in the top shoulders, and seen more when he is at rest. How much this bothers him I do not know as he has no trouble sleeping. Still, the vet had suggested half a pill of gabapentin to try help ease the tremors. Which I use sparingly at nights, as it really affects him.

    Unfortunately, in recent months his weight has shot down. The hair loss has worsened. He stopped wanting his food in the morning, had an appetite clos to every evening, but it has meant he wont have his Trilostane in the mornings. Too many days when he has had half doses.And he has begun pacing, room to room, room to room, not circling, but pacing. Can be distracted by throwing his favourite toy to give chase. He has become very frail. Sometimes needs help getting up if fallen over some cushions in an odd position. The pacing is horrible. And along with these issues, he has started sniffing at his water bowl, trying to drink but failing, time after time. It is not reluctance, something in the mind..> i sti with him, and keep encouraging him, then suddenly he starts drinking again fine, until the next time. His water intake it around okay for his vastly reduced weight.
    because he is weak, he struggles some times ot get up, mainly if in a bad position. Sleeps most the time, but is up a few times per day. I try to carry him to the local park, to then get him walking, as also has some arthritis in his legs. he still likes his walks, smells, and slow scurries, and seems to be smiling. Can keep going 20-30 mins sometimes with my mother and myself.


    The vet visit a few days back was harrowing, I broke into tears when she was trying to explain how serious the 30% weight loss in 3-4 months is (9.5kg to 6.5kg). And with the other signs, could be that a tumor in his pituitary gland has grown. They took a blood sample. And may then move to an X ray or scan. Will get the results of the blood sample tomorrow. Vet suggested I move to .35ml in the evening if that is the only time he will take his medicine and treats, and to keep trying AM also, and just half the dose back.

    Other than the horror of seeing him so frail, and deeply sadeening grieving already, I have known, at 14.5 years old, that he was not going to last forever. And now am in two lost minds. Will be guided by the vets mainly, though will pull myself together and lean fairly swiftly towards avoiding any life of suffering for my beloved little man. Yet when he will walk happily, of slowly, for 20-30 minutes. And when not pacing, loves to be stroked, and gently cuddled, and close, chase his toys...at the moment it seems a balancing act.

    I have noticed during some of the pacing episodes he emits a little howl to me, as if to say 'help me dad'. Before settling after some soothing, or chasing his toy. Has only happened twice. Yet small changes also when he is stroked and happy, his voice is different, more whine than playful growl, more feeling than mischief. Though he does clearly still love to curl around and have his neck scratched softly and back.

    All so cruel, already tearing me apart, worst experience of my existence so far is having this decision to make. And yet right now, he sleeps peacefully with his little paws curled, tremors when he breathes in the same shoulder sbut he looks peaceful, and I assume when he wakes, it will be with a stretch and eager for some food, and some play...but then who knows, a night of waking to him pacing, unable to drink from his bowl, then with some coaxing, able to drink again. Yet its getting worse. He will try to drink his water, then look at me and whine when he cant. Then more pacing, yet will stop in between to eat his dinner, then back. It is this latest worsening symptom that is leaning me towards ending what looks and feels like worsening bouts of misery which he does not deserve.

    Falling over more often, and yelping oddly when I help him up. It all seems a hideous sudden worsening.

    Have to be very careful as he is frail, so used to sleeping on the bed, but if he falls he could hurt himself and his descent is not as good as it was 3-4 months ago. Even with a pillow/cushion ramp.

    Anyway, I am sure many others here have been through similar. Probably not much advice I can find, but a sense of solidarity I hope.

    Thank you for anyone who has waded through my word swamp of woe above and comments.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Suffering old hound

    Hi Daniel,

    Welcome to you and your sweet old man, Oscar, tho I am so sorry for the circumstances that brought you to us. I have walked in your shoes more than once... and with 3 older dogs in the home now who all have various health issues I am sure I will take this journey at least once more. It is harrowing and heart-breaking and gut-wrenching and we feel so so helpless.

    Whether this is a macro (growing pituitary tumor causing neurological signs) or doggy dementia the outcome is the same sadly. The day comes when we have to put ourselves last. But maybe that day is not here for you and your precious baby boy just yet. So lets talk about a few things, ok?

    Let's start with Oscar's weight...what did he weigh when he first started on the 0.25 ml of Trilo?
    And what does he weigh now that is taking the 0.35 ml in the evening?

    Would you tell me what the bottle of Trilo says (it should say something along the lines of 50mg/ml)? This will tell me how much medicine is in each dose you give him.

    And would you share the results of the last couple of ACTH's that have been done along with the dates of the tests? There should be 2 numbers - a pre and a post.

    I ask for this info because some of what you are describing could be the result of the cortisol going too low. When this happens another hormone, aldosterone, can get low as well and if this happens it is a life-threatening situation. So we want to make sure Oscar isn't in this position.

    Regardless, if I were you, I would stop the Trilo for now. If you see an improvement in a day or so that could answer part of the question of what is going on with him - tumor, dementia, or overdose. And it is a general "rule" that you never give these drugs to a dog that is not eating or otherwise unwell. There is NO danger in stopping Trilostane cold turkey...there is no need to wean off of this drug. And it is easy to restart if needed. And just FYI dosing in the evening is not a good thing UNLESS the vet is open at night to do the monitoring ACTH test. That test has a very specific time frame following a meal and dose of medication. If the test is run outside that window, the results are worthless. Be we can go over all of that later.

    IF IF IF this is a macro in play then stopping the Trilo is the best thing you can do for him immediately. Trilostane (Vetoryl) has been shown to cause these tumors to grow more rapidly in some dogs because the cortisol acts as prednisone does and help slow the growth of the tumor. So letting the cortisol rise and "treat" the tumor is helpful for most macro pups. Here are a couple of links on this topic:

    https://www.tuskegee.edu/Content/Upl...ocorticism.pdf

    "Patients with macroadenomas rarely have neurological signs at the time of presentation, but can develop them during the initial
    treatment of PDH with either trilostane or mitotane. Clinical signs are likely due to the removal of the negative feedback inhibition
    of cortisol on the pituitary and hypothalamus. Corticosteroids are often used to shrink the size of brain tumors and the removal of the
    endogenous cortisol can contribute to swelling or enlargement of the tumor."

    https://www.vetfolio.com/learn/artic...ry-macrotumors

    "However, these tumors are rarely diagnosed before this point, making it difficult to evaluate whether survival times can be extended if early diagnosis and treatment are rendered. Medical treatment alone is often satisfactory to eliminate clinical signs due to hyperadrenocorticism but does not address the primary tumor, does not relieve neurologic signs caused by tumor expansion, and may lead to rapid tumor growth in some cases."

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19041802/

    "These results indicate that reduced negative feedback induced hyperfunction of the pituitary corticotrophs and pituitary enlargement in healthy dogs. These changes suggest that the inhibition of cortisol secretion by trilostane may increase the risk for accelerating the growth of corticotroph adenomas in dogs with Cushing's disease."

    So I think that's enough from me for now. I am sure others will be along soon to chat with you. I am very glad you found us and am looking forward to learning more soon. Please know you are not alone on this journey. We will walk every step of the way. We are her to listen if you need to simply talk, cry, scream, whatever...we are here for you and Oscar. Ya'll are now family here and we never let family walk alone.

    Hugs,
    Leslie
    "May you know that absence is full of tender presence and that nothing is ever lost or forgotten." John O'Donahue, "Eternal Echoes"

    Death is not a changing of worlds as most imagine, as much as the walls of this world infinitely expanding.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Suffering old hound

    Hi and welcome to you and to your precious Oscar!

    I agree with Leslie, stopping the Trilostane to see if that perks him up is a good idea, as she mentioned it will not cause any harm to sweet Oscar. Also, as Leslie posted, if you could see how many mg of Trilostane you are giving and post that it would be very beneficial. We are really interested in all ACTH stimulation tests that were performed on Oscar, so posting those results would be great!

    Did the vet run any blood chemistry or CBC tests? If they were performed, could you post those results as well with the reference ranges and units of measurement, as an example: ALT 50 ug/l (5-100)...thanks!

    I am so sorry your boy, Oscar, is not feeling well and I hope he is feeling much better soon. We are here to help in any way we can so do not hesitate to ask all the questions you want.

    Hugs, Lori

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Suffering old hound

    Welcome from me, too. Oh my. I have to tell you that my heart skipped a beat as I read about your sweet Oscar. I was transported back many years when I first found our family here in search of help for my own Cushpup, Barkis. Barkis is my avatar picture, and was a Labrador retriever diagnosed with Cushing’s and successfully treated for a few months with trilostane. However, he had started exhibiting tremoring episodes across his shoulders — mainly at rest, just as you have described them — even prior to starting the trilostane. Then, a few months in, the neurological symptoms started to emerge. Almost without exception, I saw what you are seeing now and that’s what has caught my breath. Really an identical picture. First came the lack of appetite and weight loss. Then the dazed look and the pacing. Then the stumbling and loss of coordination. Finally he didn’t want to eat at all, and the horrible pattern at the water bowl started up. He’d approach his bowl and clearly wanted to drink, but his tongue wouldn’t reach the water. It was as if he’d forgotten how to drink. I think that was the hardest thing of all for me to see. Just as you said, it was as if his mind was no longer working.

    His cortisol level was always OK, so we did not feel as though he had been overdosing on the trilostane. The internist who was treating him felt certain that his pituitary tumor must be enlarging and encroaching on other areas of his brain. He offered to perform imaging of his head and to refer us for radiation treatment if a macrotumor was found. For several reasons my husband and I did not wish to put him through radiation treatment, and so we opted against the expensive imaging since we would not be treating the tumor anyway. We loved on him the best we could for the bit of time we had after that. But when the day came that he stopped eating and drinking entirely, we knew it was time to release his spirit from his failing body.

    It certainly may be the case that the situation is not the same for Oscar. As Leslie says, you definitely do want to make sure that his cortisol hasn’t dropped too low. But given all the similarities to my Barkis, my own mind jumps to this same conclusion. Since we did not perform the imaging, I’ll never know for certain that a macrotumor was my Barkis’ problem. But I do think it was. And I must admit that I’m guessing the same is true for Oscar. As a first step, though, I totally agree with the notion of stopping his trilostane. In some cases of confirmed enlarging macrotumors, prednisone has even been prescribed to try to ease the inflammation of the brain tissue. I know it seems counterintuitive to think of prednisone being prescribed for a Cushpup, but in the presence of neurological symptoms, it can sometimes be helpful.

    No matter what is causing Oscar’s problems, my heart goes out to you. I’ll never forget how frantic I felt when I was searching even the baby food aisle to find something, anything that Barkis would eat. Those were really hard days. You have absolutely no need to apologize for your tale of woe Nothing is worse than the feeling of helplessness when your best friend is suffering and you can’t seem to find a way a way to ease it. Do know that we’ll be right here to offer our support no matter what the future may bring.

    And please give Oscar a gentle hug for me, OK?
    Marianne

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Suffering old hound

    Many thanks to all those who have taklen time to write. It is heartwarming for a suffering heart.

    Last night was quite awful. He was struggling for ages to drink from his bowl, usually I am there to try soothe him, encourage, but he just kept trying and failing and then looking at me crying briefly. This happened off and on for several hours. He was also unsteady on his feet, and as the vet had mentioned, his neck under his head is very sore and red. Add to this he is clearly sore elsewhere, as picking him up made him yelp too much for me to even try move him when he finally fell/flopped onto his bed and cushions, and just wanted to try sleep...he had in between eaten a close to full plate of chicken.

    A few sad hours later, I roused him and he came to bed, and finally drank from his bowl (he has a few about) which I had mixed in with some gabapentin. Then went to sleep curled up on his bed below my own. Woke up once at 4am, and managed to get him to take a few sips more then back to sleep. And helped lifted him to curl up next to me for the last hour or so. Will have to be mindful of him waking to help him off.

    That crying he has started to show of distress, sometimes with the pacing, last night with the water bowl, and yelping when lifting, its becoming too much. He is suffering more than happy.

    A happy stroll at the park, and some chasing his toy is not enough of a happy balance against these worsening symptoms. I spent some of the night looking at local vets who euthanase at home. Sad, but I am sad every day, tears aplenty for the last week or so now, as all has worsened.

    Other signs like when I spend an evening in the courtyard, he always wants to be with me, but saturday no, just wanted to curl up inside in his bed. And seeking me out clingy much more, out of distress I believe.

    As for the trilostance, I cannot see the ml/kg. Maybe it was 50ml/mg, the label is too faded I'm afraid but will ask the vet when I speak to him soonish.
    Oscar's weight was 9.5kg back then. We had started on smaller doses (twice daily). Which helped the thirst to some degree, still a bit high and left him panting often. Then moved up to 0.25ml twice daily and the panting stopped, all seemed quite good for a few months really. Its the weight loss since November which seems something else beyond trilostane and cushings.

    He was 9.5kg when steady on the 0.25ml twice daily.

    Now 3 months later is 6.5kg.

    I am not sure if I can bear to see him more like the fast few days, which is just increased imbalance between his good time and bad times.

    The crying out of distress unable to drink (yes he got there in the end and had drunk a few other times in th e day) is horrific. As his how weak his little body is becoming. Also that nasty red rash skin under his chin on the neck. It is becoming too much and I do not want to put him through the trauma of repeated visits to the vet. Very hard to keep him still in the car, wrapped up in blankets as he is so light and frail he moves too easil with any lean of the car.

    Is peaceful now curled up, yet what of when he wakes. Vet call soon. I am making enquiries of vet home services to perhaps send him to a more peaceful realm as cannot go on like this, for him or myself.

    Thank you, for those kindly sharing support and advice.
    Last edited by Daniel_p; 02-05-2023 at 05:42 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Suffering old hound

    Please know we completely understand and are here for you. Sending huge loving hugs, Lori

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Suffering old hound

    Lori has spoken for us all. We are here for you and for Oscar. Sending hugs of strength and comfort.

    Marianne

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Suffering old hound

    I have been following, but this was so close to home. Watching them go down is just awful. Our Doree Darling had doggie dementia and so many other issues. Same as Oscar with the drinking. She would just stand there over the bowl and not know what to do. I would dip my finger in the dish and wet her lips and sometimes it would work, others not. She also yelped when being picked up or touched in certain ways, but always wanted to be with my husband, her daddy, and just sleep. But she wouldn't eat any her favorite foods anymore and trying to get her to eat anything became harder and harder. She was miserable, and we finally decided it was time to let her go.

    It is the hardest decision to make. We love our babies and never want them to leave us...we've all been through what you are going through and know how you feel.

    I am also sending hugs, strength and comfort to you and Oscar, Daniel.

    Joan
    Last edited by Joan2517; 02-06-2023 at 12:26 AM. Reason: wording
    Joan, mom to my Angel Lena, Angel Gable, Angel Phoenix, Angel Doree, Cooper, Sibble, and now Raina.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Suffering old hound

    Dear Daniel,

    I read your latest post about your precious Oscar at work and was overwhelmed with memories of my Sweet Bebe, my beloved Squirt, who is my avatar pic. Squirt literally saved my life at the lowest point I had ever lived thru, lower than I had ever even imagined a human being could endure. When it came time for her to leave this life, I wasn't sure I could do what needed to be done. She saved my life, she was my life. But because she trusted me so, loved me so, I had to give her the gift of freedom from her failing vessel regardless of the cost to me. That was in 2014 and the tears still fall often. But I know in my Soul that she is once again whole in body and in mind...and that she is waiting for that day when my job here is done and we can be together again.

    Please know we understand and we will walk this valley with you when it time. We have each taken that horrendous slide down the hill into the depths of that valley and we have each clawed our way back up the other side. We do understand.

    You are not alone.

    Many hugs,
    Leslie
    "May you know that absence is full of tender presence and that nothing is ever lost or forgotten." John O'Donahue, "Eternal Echoes"

    Death is not a changing of worlds as most imagine, as much as the walls of this world infinitely expanding.

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