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Thread: Aloha from Hawaii - My 1st post - Navigating Ely's Cushings

  1. #11
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    Oct 2021
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    Hawaii
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    Default Re: Aloha from Hawaii - My 1st post - Navigating Ely's Cushings

    Thank you Joan & Marianna,

    Couple more questions...

    So, Ely is on day 3 of the 30mg am dose. He seems pretty much the same, his appetite sure hasn't changed, he seems just as ravenous as ever. On the 60 mg he didn't want to eat at times, so I know at lest it's not too much. He ran a bit on our walk today which was nice but not unheard of pre Vetroyl. He seem himself, but still his "Cushing self'. I will keep watching for other signs. I have read from some that it can take some days or weeks to see results. He was doing pretty good before we started treatment, so I almost didn't want to start with the 30mg. I wonder if cortisol levels are just always changing? I believe from his last labs his level is not crazy high, so can they drop rise naturally from time to time? I will talk to my Vet on our first visit to test his levels, about his hypothyroid. Unfortunately she hasn't been super on top of her Cushing's treatment research. So I will try to explain some of what I learned and discuss next steps.

    Still no data on diet from Leslie... Just so curious how I can support him better that way. I have read so many contradictory things on it. Also looking to learning about treating his skin issues, I read that Neosporin is ok to put on his leasions, any thoughts on skin care? Medicated shampoos, salves or creams?

    Thank you so much!
    Ada & Ely
    Last edited by Ada & Ely; 02-07-2022 at 03:53 AM.

  2. #12
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    Oct 2021
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    Hawaii
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    Default Re: Aloha from Hawaii - My 1st post - Navigating Ely's Cushings

    Another important question:
    I have read a few post about this:

    Quivering/tremors on Vetoryl?

    After that first couple doses of 60mg that were too high, his lower jaw started to quiver at times. He use to do this in anticipation of getting out of the car to poop and hike, out of excitement. But that was a few years ago, pre Cushing's. He came up to me this morning pre oil and breakfast with the quivering jaw, this is 24 hr post pill. So I'm just wondering about the possibility of the quivering jaw and other tremors of his back legs, which he has had before from the arthritis & weakness I thought was symptoms of the Cushing's. Just seeing if this might be an average symptom or a reaction from the Vetoryl or a bad one which I should be careful of & stop the Vetoryl!? I'm about to give him his 4th dose of 30mg with his morning breakfast. I'm so nervous about making him feel worse then when not on Vetoryl. And Yes we are too very watchful eagle eyes at this stage looking for any and all changes!

    Is it possible to look or see more Cushing's-y symptoms from the Vetroyl?


    Sorry I have so many questions and I'm so apprehensive.

    Thank you for any reassurances,

    Ada & Ely
    Last edited by Ada & Ely; 02-07-2022 at 04:16 PM.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Georgia
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    14,959

    Default Re: Aloha from Hawaii - My 1st post - Navigating Ely's Cushings

    Hi again, Ada! I definitely understand your anxiety re: all this stuff, and especially about starting the Vetoryl treatment. As far as Ely's jaw quivering, I don't have any explanation for that. I personally would guess, though, that it's unrelated to the medication, especially since you saw it happening on occasion some years back. And as far as the hind leg quivering, like you, I would tend to think that's due to muscle weakness from the Cushing's or discomfort from arthritis. So unless you see something changing significantly in that regard, I would continue giving the Vetoryl. I know that throughout the years, we've had several folks comment about seeing weird shivering episodes in their Cushpups (myself included!). In most of these cases, though, the episodes seem to be different from what you're describing, in that they tend to involve shivering around the neck and shoulders, and down the back. In those instances, sometimes the episodes preceded treatment and sometimes they were subsequent to treatment. Bottom line is that I still don't know any specific explanation for those types of episodes. But as I say, trembling of the hind legs is not at all uncommon for Cushpups due to muscle weakness. So unless you see a significant change in his legs or jaw, I would be continuing with the Vetoryl.

    You had asked earlier about the timeframe for seeing improvements. And yep, it can really vary. Typically, improvements in thirst/urination/hunger will precede improvements in muscle strength, skin issues, and coat. The former can get better within the first couple of weeks if the cortisol level is being lowered sufficiently; the latter can take a few months. Calcinosis Cutis especially can take a longer time than you'd wish to improve. I'm very glad you've found the Facebook CC group, because it sounds as though they will be able to offer you the most comprehensive suggestions in terms of treatment and skincare. I'm guessing you've already seen our related thread here, and that's probably where you found out about the Facebook group. But if not, here's the link to our forum thread:

    https://www.k9cushings.com/forum/sho...eatment-thread

    I wish I could give you some specific suggestions myself re: shampoo or lotions, but as I say, the Facebook group will be much more up-to-speed about those things. Also, I'll try to flag Leslie to let her know that you're hoping to get some feedback re: nutrition and supplementation, as well.

    I hope I've addressed most of the things you're wondering about today, but if not, don't hesitate to give another holler since I'll keep circling back. You can never ask too many questions -- that's what we're here for! But for right now, I think you're good to go in terms of continuing with the Vetoryl unless you start seeing other negative changes.

    Marianne

  4. #14
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    Oct 2021
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    Hawaii
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    Default Re: Aloha from Hawaii - My 1st post - Navigating Ely's Cushings

    Marianne,

    Thanks again, especially for making me feel so comfortable about asking questions!

    Today was not a good day for Ely. The jaw quivering was really bad, off and on all day. Like I said before he hasn't done this for quite a few years and when he did it was minimal and around something exciting. I'm only seeing it again now since we started the Vetoryl, and there wasn't anything to be excited about today. Also his eyes where real droopy and red cognitive tissue. He ate but just picking at his food, super low interest, but was ok with treats. He didn't seem interested in drinking, I know that his desire to drink will lessen with the meds but this was a bit much. He seemed out of it, physically slow, uncoordinated, didn't want to go for a walk this morning, which is unheard of. He seems really scared of everything, high anxiety. His stool was solid but some mucousy blood in it. He was also panting quite a bit, more Thant usual, and it's been a very cool day here in Hawai'i, in the low 70's. I'm going to stop the meds again. I think it is still too high. He seems way better off it, then on it. I will take another break and see if he comes back to his baseline, then maybe I should just start with 5 mg and see how he reacts for a few days, then I can go up from there. I really wish we started at 5mg. Ugh.

    Tonight he seems a little bit better, but still a bit out of it and sluggish.

    Would love to hear your thoughts

  5. #15
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    Apr 2009
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    Georgia
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    Default Re: Aloha from Hawaii - My 1st post - Navigating Ely's Cushings

    I totally agree with stopping the Vetoryl under these circumstances. Iím so sorry you two are having such a rollercoaster ride at the moment!! It does sound as though Ely is very sensitive to the Vetoryl, and that restarting at a much lower dose ultimately would be the way to go. If he doesnít bounce back quickly this time around, Iíd ask your vet for some low dose prednisone to bridge the gap until his natural cortisol production rebounds again. But hopefully youíll see him returning back to baseline on his own within another day or two. Please do keep us updated!

  6. #16
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    Jan 2016
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    Default Re: Aloha from Hawaii - My 1st post - Navigating Ely's Cushings

    I would stop it, too. Starting up again at 5mg sounds good. Can you get a resting cortisol test done just to see what his levels are at? That is what I always did with Gable when this happened with him. At one point we even discussed lowering it to a compounded 2.5mg, but the 5mg worked and he was on it for years.
    Joan, mom to my Angel Lena, Angel Gable, Angel Phoenix, Doree, Cooper, and now Sibble.

  7. #17
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    Oct 2021
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    Hawaii
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    Default Re: Aloha from Hawaii - My 1st post - Navigating Ely's Cushings

    Aloha again!
    Thank you for your feedback. He seems so much better already today! I will talk to my Vet today and work though a plan. I fully believe I should get a resting Cortisol test to see where he is before I start again. And I'm defiantly going to suggest we start at 5mg.

    I will let you know what we come up with and how it goes from here.

    Thank you!
    Ada & Ely

  8. #18
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    rural central ARK
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    Default Re: Aloha from Hawaii - My 1st post - Navigating Ely's Cushings

    Hi Ada,

    Welcome to you and Ely! Sorry for the delay in getting with you. Diet will have no impact on the disease itself but a good diet can help a host of issues in general. The issue for our cush pups is just what you mentioned....not making too many changes early in treatment. The signs of the cortisol going too low are the same as is often seen with diet changes - digestive upsets. So any change in diet needs to be made after the pup is settled on a dose for treatment and doing well. Then the main thing you want to look for is the fats. While there is no real clear-cut connection between fats, Cushing's, and pancreatitis, it does seem that cush pups are more prone to this condition in general so we still try to keep the fats at the low end of the scale - typically less than 17% of calories from fat. Unless there is another condition that IS dependent on diet like diabetes, IBD, etc. there is really no need to worry about diet for a cush pup. Whatever food works best for your baby is the best diet for your baby...and diet is highly individualized for them just as it is for us. With Ely having a sensitive tummy I can understand wanting to look into something other than commercial kibble (dry foods) as wet foods are typically easier to digest. If you are interested in home cooking I can recommend two good canine nutritionist who can design a diet for your baby based on HIS specific needs and things like environment etc. They are Monica Segal and Jody Zesko. You can find Monica here:
    https://www.monicasegal.com/

    You can find Jody here:
    https://www.spotoncaninenutrition.com/

    I have used diets by Monica in the past and am currently feeding a diet by Jody. All the dogs have done very well and both ladies have been easy to work with. They will make sure the diet is balanced using supplements and vitamins as needed so we aren't left trying to figure that gigantic puzzle out ourselves!

    As for herbs and supplements, I use them for specific purposes for the most part such as things to support joint health like GlycoFlex or Dasaquin, SAMe for liver support, melatonin to help relax as needed, PS100 for mental acuity. Herbs again would be specific such as milk thistle or schisandra for liver support but there are some you should steer clear of with a cush pup. Dandelion is often included in OTC products such as CushX, Adrenal Harmony, etc touted to "treat" Cushing's but dandelion is a diuretic and our babies are already peeing enough so I don't like to use this herb with my cush babies. Another is Ashwaghanda, and another is licorice....both of these herbs are adrenal stimulants used to treat Addison's which is the opposite of Cushing's. But the same applies to supplements and herbs as to food....you don't want to make any changes or additions in the beginning of the Cushing's journey unless absolutely necessary in order to prevent confusion. If you have any questions about a particular herb I'll be glad to try to help...just ask.

    Hugs,
    Leslie
    "May you know that absence is full of tender presence and that nothing is ever lost or forgotten." John O'Donahue, "Eternal Echoes"

    Death is not a changing of worlds as most imagine, as much as the walls of this world infinitely expanding.

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