Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 36

Thread: New to site - questions on holistic vs traditional treatments

  1. #11

    Default Re: New to site - questions on holistic vs traditional treatments

    Thanks so much no hurry, not a worry. We don’t have the scheduled dexamethasone challenge test until August 11. And quite frankly I really wish I could delay it longer because of my pitbull here with the ACL surgery. If that is reasonable. Depending on her symptoms and lab values etc. Because quite frankly I am feeling overloaded right now. Trying to keep the pitbull from breaking her leg 🤪

    Quote Originally Posted by labblab View Post
    Yay!! You made it back to your thread, so now we’ll be able to keep everybody’s replies consolidated right here. That’s excellent. First of all, thanks so much for all of the great information that you’ve already given us about Betsy. In fact, you’ve been so thorough that I want to take some time to digest everything before writing a lengthier reply, myself. I apologize that it will likely be tomorrow before I can get back here, but I will indeed be back.

    In the meantime, I see you’ve opened a photo album, and that is likely the best place to try to upload your screenshots. If you’re having trouble, try uploading them one photo at a time. I think the photo software is easily challenged by multiple large files. If that doesn’t work, perhaps you can just type the text of the ultrasound report into a reply here if it’s not too lengthy. And in terms of labs, all we need are any abnormal readings along with the reference range for that value.

    So once again, I’m sorry I’m not able to add a lengthier reply right now, myself. But we’re truly very glad you’ve found us and I will be back.

    Marianne
    Thanks,

    Betsy’s Mom, Cathy

  2. #12

    Default Re: New to site - questions on holistic vs traditional treatments

    OK I finally got the screenshots into the photo album but it says if they are not used in an hour they will be deleted. I don’t know what they mean by using them. I hope they will stay there for you. The key is to select a smaller file size for each picture. Thanks again!
    Thanks,

    Betsy’s Mom, Cathy

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    15,292

    Default Re: New to site - questions on holistic vs traditional treatments

    Yep, I see them -- good work! And it's been more than an hour since you posted them (although I have no idea what that warning means, either). Some typical Cushing's abnormalities there, for sure. More tomorrow...

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    15,292

    Default Re: New to site - questions on holistic vs traditional treatments

    OK, I’m back again. After reading through Betsy’s medical history and viewing her labwork, yes, she definitely looks like a Cushpup to me. The ultrasound report, elevated liver enzymes, abnormal white blood cell counts (“stress leukogram” pattern), elevated platelets and cholesterol, proteinuria and vulnerability to UTIs — I’m probably leaving out other stuff, as well. The only surprising thing to me is that, aside from excessive thirst/urination, she doesn’t seem to exhibit significant outward symptoms that are the hallmark of the disease. As far as further diagnostic testing, under these circumstances I do believe that the LDDS would be the test of choice for Betsy since it is the most likely to return a “positive” result for a dog who truly has Cushing’s.

    If you do get a positive result, then of course the question shifts to whether, or how, you choose to treat. I can give you my personal 3-word answer to your question about effective longterm holistic treatments. There are none. At least none of which I’m aware that have been clinically proven to lower cortisol levels into a therapeutically effective range. Another member this week has asked us about Adrenal Harmony Gold. Anecdotally, some people have told us that either Adrenal Harmony or Cushex drops seemed to help control symptoms for a time. But to our knowledge, neither product has been subjected to actual clinical testing to validate the maker’s claims. And the reason why we know about these products is because the owners have ended up coming here for help when those holistic products failed. Also, in terms of your own experience, if Betsy does indeed suffer from elevated cortisol it is not surprising that the melatonin and lignans did not help, either. Those supplements are recommended by UTK for treatment of “Atypical Cushing’s” which arises when various adrenal hormones *other* than cortisol are elevated. Those supplements may help lower some of the other hormones, but they do not have an effect on cortisol that’s sufficient to treat the symptoms of conventional Cushing’s.

    So if you do decide to treat, the two commonly used medications that have been proven to lower cortisol are trilostane (Vetoryl) and mitotane (Lysodren). In recent years, Trilostane has become the more common treatment of the two worldwide. We have info about both of these medications, however, on our “Helpful Resouces” subforum:

    https://www.k9cushings.com/forum/for...Cushing-s-Dogs

    Before grappling with medication specifics, however, I think one of your key questions is whether or not to treat at all right now even if Betsy does have Cushing’s. In younger dogs, in my opinion a prime goal of treatment is to stave off chronic systemic damage that Cushing’s can cause over time. In older dogs, my concern is more about immediate quality of life — are the symptoms causing obvious discomfort.

    In Betsy’s case, her only obvious symptom right now seems to be the excessive thirst/urination which we might tend to discount as being a big deal. Except that symptom alone *does* seem to be understandably problematic for you due to the frequency and the volume of her urination. One warning that I’ll give you is that you are risking kidney damage if you limit water intake for a Cushpup. Due to a physiological process that I’m not sure I even understand, Cushpups are drinking so much water to keep up with excessive urine that they’re producing, rather than vice versa. So it is not safe to limit their fluid intake. If excessive thirst/urination is a genuine problem for you girls (it was definitely a problem for me and my big Lab boy), then you’d likely want to look into effective treatment.

    Digging a bit further in Betsy’s case, her proteinuria and possible gallbladder sludge could be other treatment prompts. Cushing’s can indeed cause kidney changes that cause protein loss in the urine and if left unchecked, this can also cause kidney damage. Cushpups are also vulnerable to developing gallbladder mucoceles which can require surgical intervention. And yes, if Cushing’s is left untreated, you can expect UTIs to become frequent and irritating visitors.

    So these are a few of the immediate issues that might push me towards treatment if Betsy were my own. We can certainly talk further about other Cushing’s risks, as well as the logistics of treatment. But I’ll go ahead and close for now. Please do bear in mind that I am not vet, so my thoughts and opinions come from my personal experiences as well as reading about the journeys of other Cushpups here throughout the years. But I’m always happy to share info and offer support in any way that I’m able.

    Bye for now,
    Marianne

  5. #15

    Default Re: New to site - questions on holistic vs traditional treatments

    I wrote out a thing checking her weights and sort of a timeline about that because in the ER I was told to have her gain weight and I was told to have her lose weight in December. Anyway I will upload those files from photos in a minute. I had written it all out in here and then it disappeared so I wrote it by hand and took pictures.
    Thanks,

    Betsy’s Mom, Cathy

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    15,292

    Default Re: New to site - questions on holistic vs traditional treatments

    Quote Originally Posted by BetsyFoxhoundMix View Post
    I had written it all out in here and then it disappeared so I wrote it by hand and took pictures.
    Here’s a tip to keep you from “timing out” when you’re in the middle of composing a reply. When you first log in, be sure to check the little “Remember Me” box right below your username and password. That will keep you constantly logged in unless you manually log yourself out.

    Also, when you’re composing a long post, first click on “Go Advanced” and then periodically hit the “Preview Post” button. That does double duty by letting you review what you’ve already written plus it also acts as a “Save” function.

    Last but not least, sometimes when I’m adding a complicated reply, I’ll type it out beforehand somewhere else on my computer and then just paste it into a reply here.

    Hopefully one of these suggestions will keep you from losing any postings in the future — I know how frustrating that is cuz it’s happened to me, too!!

  7. #17

    Default Re: New to site - questions on holistic vs traditional treatments

    OK, wow, this is very very helpful. The guy who wants to test her is an internal medicine specialist and said if she has Cushing’s he would follow her if I wanted him to which is better than our regular vet who is always busy. Plus if we have an emergency this guy is at the emergency hospital because it’s a big referral place, and all her records would be online there. He said we would treat with Trilostane. I agree that we are probably in for a bunch of urinary tract infections and so now it seems even more important to try to treat her. I will read the file on medicines that you sent me the link to. I have done a lot of reading about this and was scared when I read things about dogs on medicine for Cushing’s going into shock etc. from Medication doses that were too high etc. So I will get her tested and the dexamethasone suppression test is what the doctor scheduled for August 11. You’re right, Betsey is a happy dog who is always walking around doing stuff and wagging her tail and social with the other dogs, affectionate to me, no skin problems, no potbelly, etc. etc. But she does not race around chasing my pitbull‘s like she did two years ago but then again she’s older. Thanks again so very much!
    Thanks,

    Betsy’s Mom, Cathy

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Posts
    23

    Default Re: New to site - questions on holistic vs traditional treatments

    Betsy's Mom,

    I can't offer the expert advice that Marianne can provide but we are in the middle of treating a Cush Dog and have been thru alot. Still searching for something that helps our guy... searching and hoping. Currently on a low dose Vetoryl as Cooper didn't initially tolerate Vetoryl very well.

    Holistics. Man where to begin. We've tried a few. Probably the one you'll see the most come up as an option are Lignans and Melatonin. Man, we religiously stuck with that protocol for 3 months. Nothing. Not even a HINT of improvement for Cooper. No adverse reactions either but no positive clinical signs. The other one you'll see alot is Adrenal Harmony type liquid drops. Usually they have Ashwaganda and/or Astragalus along with some other herbs. Cushex, Prana... there are a bunch of brands out there.
    Many have those two ingredients I mentioned. We tried the Adrenal Harmony. Nothing as far as any improvement. Boy, we'd pour over the success stories out on Amazon. About 90% of the reviews out there are super success stories. Are they fake reviews?... I don't think so. The people seem genuine and most are verified purchasers. I can't really speak to how almost everyone has a positive result w/ many of the holistic stuff. We did not see any indications of any improvement.

    Would I try holistics again? I don't know. Its a sore subject now because I feel like we wasted time when we could have been trying harder to get Cooper acclimated to Vetoryl. I guess I'd say if you try holistics and your guy isn't improving or regressing, move on. But there is no guarantee w/ Vetoryl either. He didn't tolerate it well in the beginning. Does seem to be tolerating it ok at a lower dose but none of the clinical signs are going away(only a week in on the lower dose). This is tough disease. I've been thru Cancer and now Cushings. I'd say its a tie. Cushings is really hard emotionally, watching it take your Dog down. Even though they are here, they aren't REALLY here for alot of us, at least while the disease isn't being controlled.

    Sorry I can't offer any great advice. More just my recent experience. Thoughts and prayers.
    Last edited by Kevin; 07-28-2021 at 11:29 AM.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    15,292

    Default Re: New to site - questions on holistic vs traditional treatments

    Kevin, I just want to thank you for giving your thoughts to Betsy’s Mom. The things you have to say are just as valuable as anything I am writing. You’re speaking from your real-life experiences, and that’s super helpful. So don’t ever hold back from adding things on anybody’s thread — it’s our collective thoughts that helps chart the path forward for us all!

    Marianne

  10. #20

    Default Re: New to site - questions on holistic vs traditional treatments

    Hi Kevin thanks for your reply, I wrote a very long reply and it disappeared even though I thought it was auto saving. Long story short I tried lignans and melatonin in the fall with no improvement in the excessive drinking. So we will get tested August 11 and then start Vetoryl. She is definitely not what I would call suffering now she seems happy and interested in everything including affectionate and wanting to be with the other dogs and me. If we get to a point where medicine is not working and she appears to be suffering then I will have to put her to sleep, I would not want to keep her alive just for my benefit if she is really suffering. Sounds like from everything I am reading here including from you and Maryanne that it would be wasting time to try any more holistic treatments. Thank you so much and I hope your dog will improve soon!
    Thanks,

    Betsy’s Mom, Cathy

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •