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Thread: 15 year old cocker spaniel on Vetoryl - Dagget is gone

  1. #11
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    Default Re: 15 year old cocker spaniel on Vetoryl...dose too high

    Hi again, Nancy. Yes, with an ACTH result of 3.2 and 9.6, I would expect to see a normal appetite level. So I share your concern that there may be something else going on with Dagget. One wild card that I hate to mention is the fact that Cushing’s-related pituitary tumors do have the potential to enlarge over time. When this occurs, the tumors can place pressure on the brain, resulting in neurological problems that can include inappetence. Unfortunately, the imaging of the head that could confirm an enlarging tumor is quite expensive and therefore not performed routinely. This may not have anything to do with Dagget’s appetite issue, but I always feel as though I need to at least mention the possibility to folks. If that is indeed the problem, you could expect to see additional neurological problems manifest over time: lack of thirst in addition to lack of hunger, lethargy, loss of coordination, seemingly mindless circling, head-pressing against walls or hard surfaces, etc.

    But hopefully there is a more benign explanation that will still reverse itself. As far as the melatonin and lignans, any significant benefit is really limited to adrenal hormones other than cortisol. So I wouldn’t really recommend the use of these supplements in Dagget’s case. If anything, you might go ahead and ask for some low-dose prednisone to see whether a higher level of circulating hormone would actually kick-start his appetite. With a post-ACTH of 9.6, I wouldn’t think that prednisone would be helpful. But it might be worth a brief trial, just to see.

    Marianne

  2. #12
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    Jan 2010
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    Default Re: 15 year old cocker spaniel on Vetoryl...dose too high

    After several days with no appetite, and some diarrhea with a little mucousy blood(called vet, they said probably colitis caused by him eating a variety of foods), he rather suddenly got his appetite back yesterday evening. He seems much more normal today, except for terrible smelling gas. He was more social today, even my husband (who doesn't really spend time with Dagget) noticed. So for now I'm just watching and waiting. If his Cushing's symptoms return, I'll get him tested at the time. Otherwise, I think the best thing is to wait a few weeks and then test. (ACTH stim I mean). Does that sound like a good plan? There is really no harm in waiting awhile for a 15 year old dog, right? He seems so frail to me compared to a few months ago. Maybe some of it is behavioral. I know my other dog, Barry the Saint Bernard, has been moping around since Lola passed. It's been one month as of yesterday. Dagget does perk up when my daughter or my sister come to visit.

    I wish I had some idea of how much time Dagget has left. He was doing great before his blood clot/pulmonary hypertension in October. He seemed like a young dog again after starting Vetoryl, from last spring until October. Maybe I SHOULD put him back on Vetoryl asap. I don't know.

    He weight 26 pounds last time at the vet. Assuming he's still at that weight (He seems thinner to me now though), would there be any benefit putting him on 10mg instead of 20? Or is that sub-clinical for a dog of his size? I wonder what the lowest dose would be for a 26 pound dog?

    I'm sorry I'm rambling. I just keep thinking if I ask the right question, if I do the right thing, Dagget will feel better and live longer. I love this little guy so much. Thank you for your help and support.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: 15 year old cocker spaniel on Vetoryl...dose too high

    There is NO WAY I would restart the Vetoryl right now. First, he is not well and it is not good to give these drugs to dogs who are having other issues like your precious boy has been. Second, he would need an ACTH to see where his cortisol is now before restarting. So I would simply keep waiting and if he continues to improve AND you start to see those cush signs coming back strong, then do the ACTH and proceed from there based on those results. I'm very glad he is showing some improvements! I pray that trend continues but do not believe restarting the Vetoryl at this time would be good for him.

    You're going a good job, mom, and I know how hard it is when we worry so much about our babies but hang in there!
    Hugs,
    Leslie
    "May you know that absence is full of tender presence and that nothing is ever lost or forgotten." John O'Donahue, "Eternal Echoes"

    Death is not a changing of worlds as most imagine, as much as the walls of this world infinitely expanding.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: 15 year old cocker spaniel on Vetoryl...dose too high

    A couple weeks have gone by, and Dagget has finally started eating nearly normally. Not voraciously. I now realize he was food obsessed for years. About a week ago he started eating just dry food again, I no longer have to mix anything with it. His diarrhea is mostly better. I've started adding Fortiflora (a probiotic) with his food, but I'm not sure if that's helped much. I think eating his regular kibble is what has made the difference.

    He's not searching out food and trying to get in trash. He pees a lot, but that is probably from the Lasix he takes. The only possible Cushing's symptoms I see are occasional panting lately and some slight skin flaking. Before we started Vetoryl last spring he had terrible flaking, which cleared up quickly on Vetoryl. He's been off Vetoryl since January 3rd. He has, just the past 2 days, seemed slightly week in the back end, but no falling, and he makes it up the outside stairs onto the porch just fine. He has some short bouts of panting now and then, but he also has fairly mild heart issues, and the pulmonary hypertension (which, last time we did an echo, was now mild, because they feel he had a blood clot that had resolved).

    So I think I should NOT consider Vetoryl at this time...what do you think?

    He's not his "old self". He still is way less affectionate. He chooses to not sleep with me. He sleeps under my bed, which is very strange for him. When he sleeps in the living room, he goes under a coffee table, and in the dining room he's always under a bench. Seems strange. Sometimes just his head, but he always seems to be under something. He gets very happy and wiggly when my sister or daughter visit. He's still happy to see me when I come in after being out. He often doesn't wake up at first but when he does, he's very happy. He still follows me to the bathroom etc. He's been doing that for over 15 years

    I wonder how much of that is "Normal" aging? I have had a dog who lived to 15 before. Charlotte my golden retriever. She was completely herself until the end. She had severe arthritis and when she could no longer walk, even with steroid injections, we had to let her go, she was very distressed at that point. But she was 100% herself at 15. Does Cushing's make dogs less "cuddly"? I wish I knew what Dagget was thinking and feeling.

    It's been nearly 2 months and I miss my Lola more than ever. Barry my Saint Bernard has been sulking and appears lonely and bored. He and Dagget aren't buddies. They pretty much have ignored each other for 4 years lol. Our cat, Pumpkinhead was close to Lola and now he is practically attached to me. He sleeps right next to me every night, under the covers. He didn't do that previously. Nobody greets me at the door anymore...Dagget sleeps deeply, and Barry the Saint Bernard just stares at me and wags his tail from the couch! We are still in shock that she could go from healthy, to "Maybe some arthritis affecting her appetite" to gone, in about 2 weeks. I guess I should be happy that Dagget doesn't have cancer (that we know of). I would never have guessed that Lola would leave us before Dagget. She seemed so healthy. Had blood work done twice in a year and all came back perfect.

    I will have to tell the story of how Dagget picked me sometime. It was 15 years ago on January 8th. I have loved him deeply for 15 years. I don't know how I'll live without him. Lola and Dagget have been the most amazing friends.

    Dagget is the last of an era...he even knew Daisy, who died of Cushing's 10 years ago. He knew Charlotte briefly. He's been here since my youngest child was 9 years old. Now he's 24 and lives in Russia! I want Dagget to live forever. I also do no want him to suffer, not one minute.

    Sorry for rambling. I'm just feeling sad today. I think Barry the Saint needs a buddy, and I think it would cheer me up to get another. But I keep thinking I want a dog exactly like Lola. Border Collie/Brittany mix, female, red and cream...then I realize I don't want another dog. I want Lola.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: 15 year old cocker spaniel on Vetoryl...dose too high

    Good to hear from you again.

    To my mind, much of what you are seeing in Dagget is simply aging...but on the other hand his hiding behavior reminds me of my Squirt just before she was diagnosed with Cushing's. However, I don't see many other things that remind of that time with her....more that remind of her in her last years as she grew older and older. Dagget has been off the Trilo long enough that he could be tested again without fear of the drug interfering with the results...but that is also a stressor for some dogs, so keep that in mind as you consider. When Squirt was 15 I took her off Lysodren and stopped all the testing unless it was a matter of life and death - she had been thru enough in my mind. She lived another year and few months, passing from old age, not Cushing's.

    At times I find myself looking on PetFinder, thru rescue sites, and shelters looking for "another" Squirt. She's never there. She never will be there. But I look from time to time anyway. I also look for Trinkets and Bricks and Crystals...they are never there either. I think it is how I help myself grieve and honor them. Sometimes the emptiness they left behind is just too much so I look and dream and cry. My mind knows full well I can never replace any of them and if I tried it would be a serious disservice to them and to any dog I used for that purpose. Yet I still have to look from time to time. So look if you need. It's just our love for them bubbling over with no place to go.

    Hugs,
    Leslie
    "May you know that absence is full of tender presence and that nothing is ever lost or forgotten." John O'Donahue, "Eternal Echoes"

    Death is not a changing of worlds as most imagine, as much as the walls of this world infinitely expanding.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: 15 year old cocker spaniel on Vetoryl...dose too high

    I've been doing a lot of reminiscing too lately. Missing the ones who have been gone for 30+ years and the ones who left only a few years ago; comparing the ones still here to the ones who are gone; and mourning for the ones I still have because someday they will be gone too. Must be this bleary winter....

    Lena changed so much in the last year. Not wanting to be held, not wanting to sleep under the covers anymore; only sitting on me for a few minutes. Gable stopped sleeping upstairs after Lee died and will only sit next to me on the couch for a few minutes, but will lie at my feet wherever I am. He still knows who she was. When I talk to him about her, he always listens intently and tilts his head when I say her name.

    I tell myself I will never have four dogs again, I'm too old and it's too much, but I do look at all the rescue posts and I think, maybe...if I saw one that looked like Lena, I know I would do it.

    Such is the life of a dog lover, I think...
    Joan, mom to my Angel Lena, Angel Gable, Angel Phoenix, Angel Doree, Cooper, Sibble, and now Raina.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: 15 year old cocker spaniel on Vetoryl...dose too high

    Joan, I just read Lena's thread over the weekend. I felt shocked when I read that she'd passed after being taken to the hospital. I assumed she must have done well, longer, since the thread was still active. She was one loved little girl! I cried and cried.

    Barry does the same thing as Gable when I say Lola's name. I feel like he expects her to show up when I call her name. Or maybe I'm the one who expects her to show up. I still need to pick up her ashes, but they are in the "big city" (Pittsburgh) so I've been putting the drive off.

    Yes, I think the gloomy weather has something to do with the reminiscing and I am very much look forward to spring!

    If I saw a dog who looked like Lola and was the same mix of breeds, I'd jump in my car and start driving immediately! Border collie/britanny doesn't seem to be a common mix though, and that might never happen. Anyway, I should probably get Dagget's emergency vet bills paid off before I get another pup!

    Nancy

  8. #18
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    Default Re: 15 year old cocker spaniel on Vetoryl...dose too high

    Leslie

    I think it does help me to think that I can find a dog "just like Lola", even though there is certainly no dog just like Lola! Well, you understand! I've just been missing her a lot the last few days although Barry seems to be sulking less.

    I started Dagget on a new food yesterday Purina Pro Plan Bright Minds 7+. He loves it, and I know it's impossible, but he seems much more social and aware today, after just 3 meals. Maybe it just makes his stomach feel better. I'm really excited to see if his behavior continues to improve.

    Nancy

  9. #19
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    Default Re: 15 year old cocker spaniel on Vetoryl...dose too high

    She was loved beyond words, Nancy. I always loved all my pets. I've had so many...dogs, cats,birds, pigeons, ducks, even a swan. But Lena was different. It's been three years and I can still break down at a picture, a memory, a thought. I can still see the way she looked at me, or how she watched me. She knew all my moods before I even knew I was in one.

    It sounds like Lola was that way for you. Even though it's heartbreaking to lose them, having them for those few years is a gift. I wouldn't have missed loving her no matter how much it hurts to have lost her.

    It's freaky to have to go through it again with Gable. I didn't want to treat him at first because I was so afraid, but we're doing okay. We had a little bump a few weeks ago, but I think he'll be okay in a couple of weeks when we test him and hopefully raise the Vetoryl. He's only on 10mg for the last week or two, and I know he needs more, but we'll wait until the next ACTH test and see if he's come back up.
    Joan, mom to my Angel Lena, Angel Gable, Angel Phoenix, Angel Doree, Cooper, Sibble, and now Raina.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: 15 year old cocker spaniel on Vetoryl...dose too high

    Well, here we are almost three months later. Dagget has had chronic diarrhea with blood. His vet prescribed Metroconidizal a couple months ago. She said there's nothing else she will/can do until Dag sees his internal medicine dr and cardiologists. Well, they can't see him until May 28th, so we've been dealing with this for quite awhile. He has okay days but isn't himself still. His appetite is not good. This weekend I got him to eat oatmeal with some smelly canned food. I have to change foods every few days. He will eat treats most of the time, so still takes his meds. Haven't done any testing for Cushing's since January, since he's not eating much.

    He's been weak the last few days, having difficulty standing, and has needed assistance up the few steps leading to our backyard sometimes, but not always. Last week the diarrhea was awful. The last 2 days though he's had some actual solid-ish poops, but with blood. He mostly sleeps. He lays stretched out on his stomach with his arms sprawled out. He wants me in the same room with him, but does not cuddle. I am so depressed. I feel like I'm just watching him die. It feels like torture.

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