Jackson and Pepper

[labblab]

Good job, Shana!! I was so anxious to read your report this morning, and am so glad to hear how things are going. Yay for all four of you!

[judymaggie]

Shana -- it sounds like a lot of work just reading what you are doing but I bet it is going to pay off big-time with two much happier pups co-existing! I'm glad you got some sleep last night --

[DoxieMama]

I remain hopeful that the amount of work involved will decrease as time goes by. Some of it is setting up the environment, and some of it is having to do everything without another person there to support. When my husband is there, it makes it all SO much easier, as then we can each take a dog and do whatever needs doing. I really really hope that having him home for the next few days, and walking the boys together, will reap some major rewards soon. Not that I expect an overnight miracle... but I can still hope for one!

[molly muffin]

Congratulations Shana!!! What an adorable little guy.

I think that with you being proactive that you will have success, it just will take time. You are really on top of this and working towards a positive outcome so that is good.
Hopefully Jackson will settle down in no time, once he realizes he is still your precious boy and nothing changes that.
Pepper of course is just too adorable!

[DoxieMama]

My husband was home with the boys all day yesterday. He slept only a few hours in the morning but told me then they were "free" throughout the house the rest of the day with him. He gave them treats throughout the day, they passed each other (in the hallway I think he said), went outside to potty and came back in without issues. Jackson growled at Pepper once but otherwise they were fine.

I came home and the boys were both in the hallway, behind the baby gate and next to each other, tail wagging and so excited to see me. I took off my coat and came through the gate, tails wagging and happy. I fed them separately, picked up their dishes and put them away, then joined my husband and his friend who was visiting in the kitchen.

Jackson came in and lay down under the table. I was standing near the door a few minutes later, when Pepper came through the doorway behind me, walked next to me and approached our visitor. Jackson attacked him again. I immediately raised my voice and said "knock it off" ... and Jack stopped right away. Pepper ran out of the room. I made sure both dogs were ok and gave each one attention and reassurance, physically separated. The rest of the evening and this morning, Pepper was in his crate with the door open, behind the baby gate in the laundry room.

This morning we walked the dogs separately. I took Jackson out and went across the street, waiting for my husband and Pepper to come out. They got to the street but were too close so Jackson barked and lunged. We moved away and they kept back far enough that Jackson knew they were there but was able to walk with me. Jackson sometimes was oblivious of them, walking and looking forward, or sniffing things. Whenever I saw him look back and then look forward again without stopping I said "yes!" and gave him a treat. A handful of times he stopped and stared at them. If I touched him or moved so he couldn’t see them, he would turn and start walking again. For the last two blocks, they were on the same side of the street but far enough back that Jackson didn't care.

We got home, went inside and upstairs. Maybe 10 minutes later, I went downstairs with Jackson following me. Pepper was with my husband in the office, only a few feet away. I went the other way, through the baby gate and the dogs were on the other side… not necessarily together but not with any barriers. And they were fine. My husband went over to give Jackson some attention, Pepper went up a few steps, my husband sat down at the bottom of the steps between the dogs and gave them both attention. And they were fine.

So I can’t explain what happened next. To me. I think I just feel so stressed (work has been absolutely horrible this week too), I just broke down and cried. I had to ask my husband to put Pepper in the laundry room so I could finish getting ready for work. I talked to him for quite a while about all of it (so I was late to work-oops) and he is absolutely certain that everything will be fine in time. But he told me that he heard fear in my voice last night when I told them to knock it off. He said I need to try to project confidence, or maybe even anger. Be stern and very matter of fact, that such behavior is NOT acceptable. I thought that’s what I was doing.

We want them to co-exist, be in the same room and relaxed, and eventually be able to play with each other again like they did that first night. That’s the goal. And I was SO happy to know they were able to be together yesterday without issues. They didn’t play, but they didn’t fight either. But I’m conflicted because that means they can’t be together and be with me right now. It seems to be all about me… and I HATE that. It’s a catch 22. I am the problem, which makes me anxious/nervous/stressed, which only makes it worse!

I asked my husband to put Pepper in the laundry room when I come home tonight. I *know* I am stressed from work when I get home, and I need them to be separated so I can unwind. I don’t think he liked the idea, but he agreed to do that for me.

We CAN do this. They DO get along, for 23 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds a day. It is just that one second that SUCKS!!

[judymaggie]

You absolutely can do this!! Sometimes when we want something so badly it gets to be a stress trigger--do whatever you need to do to stay as relaxed as possible. Iif that means having them separated when you arrive home, so be it. Unfortunately, resolution may just take time--although we think are pups understand everything we say, they just aren't able to do that.

Okay, enough philosophy ... sending you a big hug!

[DoxieMama]

Thanks, Judy. I think Jackson and I need the same thing - to see that everything IS fine. He and Pepper can be in the same room, with me, everyone calm, relaxed, and comfortable. We need to see that over and over and over and over. It's hard to be calm, relaxed and comfortable until then ... so I kind of understand how he feels.

[molly muffin]

It is so stressful when two animals in the house are not getting along it's hard to find that calm place you need to be for them. We are dealing with two cats fighting that have been best buddies for years but now we have daily fighting and pinning down and torn claws, blood. It's horrible and damn if I can find my calm place sometimes either.

I am hoping that time will make Jackson realize he doesn't need to guard around you or act out. He probably is even more protective now after Visuddha passed. So time. You can do this. I know it and luckily Pepper is a sweetheart that just wants to get along with everyone so hoping that helps Jackson.

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Shana, when I saw your latest post, it was already late here and I had to go to sleep.

Let me start by saying that this is a difficult subject...behaviour. (for me personally, since I am not there and cannot see what is happening) But in general...there are many people, many views, ideas and thoughts out there regarding behaviour. All I can do is share my thoughts And that is what they are, my thoughts, nothing more, nothing less And, I feel it's my duty to represent the dog(s), in all circumsances. Having said all this, here we go

" He said I need to try to project confidence, or maybe even anger. Be stern and very matter of fact, that such behavior is NOT acceptable"

My personal opinion in this is that dogs need to be able to epress themselves and they do it growling, snapping, etc. If you "punish" this language, expression of feelings, you risk ending up with a dog that has learned that "warning" first is not a good idea because he will get punished for it, so he will skip the warning and go directly to the real thing... They are not children who you can explain that they should be sharing toys with their lillte buddy Jackson is letting you and Pepper know how he feels...he is telling you in the only way he can, in dog
language

From the incidents that have happened so far, it seems to me that Jackson is okay with Pepper being somewhere around but not with Pepper coming too close (to his people, his visitors, his bowl, his space, etc.) So, it's important to prevent both Jackson from "talking" and to protect Pepper from it. This means you need to be very aware when such situations can occur...and since Jackson is a very well trained dog from what I can tell, it would be maybe a better idea, in case of the visitor for example, to not let Jackson lay under a table...but to assign him a place and sent him there....and stay. And then you could perhaps guide Pepper to the visitor to meet. But Jackson should not have the possibility to "make his own decissions" in such situations. Because he will be faster then you It's all about setting them up for success And that means to you have to control the environment, who is where, doing what, etc.

I also feel it's my duty to have people think... from differant angles. It's not always appreciated and I certainly don't mean to being mean or a party pooper but it is part of being a behaviorist...even one that isn't actively working anymore

In my opinion and my experience over many years, if two dogs do not get along well right away, it will remain (in most cases, there are exceptions of course) difficult or at least, not quite satisfactory. It's only fair if and when both dogs can be truly who they are. When they don't have to be on guard all the time (either to defend something...or either to tip toe constantly out of fear for an other confrontation)

And I can't tell you what the case is, that's up to you and mainly up to Jackson and Pepper But I feel it is my duty to mention this as well...I wouldn't be doing it right if I didn't. And I don't know Jackon, I don't know if he is part Australin Cattle dog...if he is, this behaviour would be completely normal for the breed. He would simply be an Australian Cattle Dog They are good with other dogs, pets, kids, if the grew up with them (which was the case with Visuddha) but they are not good with dogs, pets and children other then their own. (and of course, this is general...there will be definately Australian Cattle dogs that are great with other dogs ) And they also tend to be defensive and protective...so in that sense, his behaviour makes completely sense to me. Except, that I do not know if he is part Australian Cattle dog

Something else I wanted to mention...and I feel bad because you might think I want to bring you down...and trust me, I don't want to do that...but I have to be honest, to the best of my abbilities and knowledge...I hope you understand that.

Ver often and very many people will say..."they (the dogs) will figure it out amongst themselves", "once leadership is established, its all good" ... But I am sorry to say, it's a myth. And I have seen...ad still see, too many dogs, living together, with proud owners saying...that it took a while, but now they get along well. Well, the truth, unfortunately for those dogs, is often different. I see nervous dogs, shy dogs, bullying dogs...often very subtle (and the owners don't notice it) but at least one of those dogs is suffering and unable to shine, to be who he/she is. But usually both are suffering since also the one that's the "leader" is often stressed due to the situation.

And I cannot tell if this is the case or not, I am not there, I cannot observe both dogs but it's something one has to take into consideration.

Because, that's all it is...things to think about and to see if it applies to your situation or not... I cannot tell from here

But that you are doing a wonderful job, that is something I can tell from here... truly


So, I will be very curious to see what the behaviorist will say and think coming Tuesday

If there's anything in the meantime, you knwo where to find me, just whistle and I'll be there

Saskia

[DoxieMama]

Thank you, Saskia. I understand where you are coming from, you mean well, are trying to help and not be mean or anything like that. You ARE helping. You have experience and knowledge that I do not have, and everything you have shared with me is from that perspective. Also knowing that you are on the other side of the world so all you can know about Jackson or Pepper (or me!) is what I tell you. I understand how difficult it is to help someone from a distance like that... in something so much simpler and "black and white" than behavior. So I can only imagine how much more difficult your position is here. I appreciate it all so much and am looking forward to when Cathy will be here Tuesday to SEE the dogs for herself and tell me her thoughts, too. Now, with all that said....

People I have spoken to in person, including my husband, oldest son, and other dog owners (but not trainers or behaviorists-yet) have all said the same thing... it just takes time. I do hear what you are saying though too, that we (as owners) may not recognize the subtle signs that the dogs are not comfortable, or as happy as they could be. They look like they get along fine but they are under constant stress.

So I am curious, you said "if two dogs do not get along well right away"... do you mean if they are not best buddies from the very first meeting, living, eating, playing together immediately and from that point on? Because while I suppose it is possible (like love at first sight for people), wouldn't that be more rare? The common (positive) occurrence might be that they get along "just OK" at first but not great, perhaps with a conflict here and there, especially in the first weeks or months... but otherwise they get along well from then on. Or is it more likely that those dogs are under constant stress and we just don't recognize that, and love at first sight is the only way two dogs will be best of friends? Or am I projecting human relationships onto the dogs?

From my perspective, Visuddha and Jackson got along well when they first met but V was very unhappy with him getting into our truck. Once home, though I would like to think they were best buddies, they were not without their differences. My husband has reminded me of that, though I don't remember so well other than their very first meeting and one occasion when V had a bone that Jackson got too close to. Then again, maybe they were always under stress... Jackson was free from that for a little while... but now Pepper's here and threatening that freedom. Or something. I don't know.

I will absolutely let you know what I find out on Tuesday.

And now for an update! Last night we kept the dogs separated. Mostly so we could all relax and unwind from a stressful week. I spent time with both of them, separately, where the other dog could see and/or hear me... and sometimes pet them both at the same time.

This morning my husband and I talked about everything some more, without me having to leave for work this time. I think he believes they will be fine, if I will just relax. They both sense my stress which makes them anxious - even if they're not already - and Jackson is lashing out. I can't disagree with that... they can tell when I'm feeling good and when I'm not. Last night helped with that a lot.

Then we took the dogs out, this time Jackson with him and Pepper with me. Jackson whined when he saw me on the street, but settled quickly into a walk. Pepper on the other hand was showing off his best sled dog behavior. I honestly slid down the driveway and part of the street without picking up my feet at all. It was all I could do to not fall! He wanted nothing to do with anything I tried other than go go go sniff sniff sniff. We stopped. Turned around. Stopped again. Turned around again. Nothing was helping. My husband and Jackson got really far away before he realized we weren't following, and stopped to wait. Then a man crossed the intersection with his two dogs and Pepper decided he needed to talk to them (boy are beagles loud!!) and I needed a break. I told my husband to just go on, and Pepper and I came home.

I spent a few minutes on the deck with him, telling him how sorry I was for all the stress of the past week, and on and on. I pet him and he listened so politely. Then he gave me a kiss and lay down.

Ahhhhhhh. Okay. You wanna try again, buddy?

Out we went, but I was better prepared mentally this time. Leash training was the goal, not trying to keep up with Jackson.

We came home and Jackson was already there, looking at us through the baby gate with his head tilted. Tail wagging. Got Pepper inside, talked to my husband for a few about the walks and then took Jackson back out. He could use a little more time out there, and I wanted to walk with a loose leash again so I remember how it feels!! We also worked on a couple other skills to help him with his leash-reactivity (u-turns and "watch!" which are going well).

We've been home for a few hours now and dare I say, it's been peaceful. We had to do some work which required us to repeatedly go back and forth between the kitchen and the garage. Pepper whined at the door of the garage and since I was sitting just the other side, I opened the door. Jackson saw me and came up right behind Pepper... they were both just wanting to come out and be with us. Back and forth we go, and they both just followed us.

Now they're laying down in separate rooms. My husband went up to go to bed and I think I'm going to lay down for a nap as well. Gate's going up again, just for my peace of mind.