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Thread: Molly, 13 yr, shih tzu - lhasa aspo - Molly has passed

  1. #2551
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    Default Re: Molly, 10 yr, shih tzu - lhasa aspo, cushing diagnosis

    I'm pretty sure that Calcium citrate can be used in place of potassium citrate.

    Hugs to you and sweet Molly, Lori

  2. #2552
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    Default Re: Molly, 10 yr, shih tzu - lhasa aspo, cushing diagnosis

    Ahh ha! I was thinking there was another I'd read about. That is it! Thanks Lori.
    I will mention to my vet
    Hugs
    Sharlene and Molly muffin
    Sharlene and the late great diva - Molly muffin (always missed and never forgotten)

  3. #2553
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    Default Re: Molly, 10 yr, shih tzu - lhasa aspo, cushing diagnosis

    Hi Sharlene,

    I haven't been around posting lately, but I've been following your posts about Molly very carefully. I am so sorry for everything that has been happening, I understand how frustrated you must feel. I keep meaning to chime in, and just haven't had a chance get my thoughts together to post. So happy to see all the information that Marianne, Lori and others have been providing.

    I just have a quick minute now to post because it's the middle of the night and I need to get back to bed, but wanted to let you know about the food that you asked about on our thread.

    The renal diet that Jasper was started on after being diagnosed with Protein Losing Nephropathy was Royal Canin Renal MP Modified. This is considered a moderate protein restricted diet rather than a low-protein diet. The other Royal Canin renal diet is called Renal LP Modified. That is the low-protein version and more protein restricted, the MP is what you want. Science Diet makes a renal diet also, I believe it's called K/D. We did try Jasper on that initially but he didn't like it and I had a lot of trouble getting him to eat it. Plus it was more protein restricted which I didn't like. After researching quite a bit, and with help from folks here, I asked my vet about the Royal Canin. Their prescription foods seem to have better ingredients than Hills, although none of them are wonderful as foods go. And I know there are others on the forum that will not recommend any of the prescription diets and feel very negatively about them. However, my vet insisted that Jasper needed to have that at the time, so that is what we went with.

    He is no longer on the renal diet because his triglycerides got sky-high (he has hyperlipidemia also), so we now have to have him on a prescription low-fat diet. He is getting Royal Canin G.I. low-fat right now. Unfortunately, it was a trade-off for us. We had to get the triglycerides down, so I couldn't keep him on the moderately restricted protein diet for his kidneys. So far it hasn't seemed to affect the protein level in his urine significantly.

    The other thing I wanted to make sure I mentioned right now is that in addition to the Benazepril, Molly needs to be taking fish oil daily. That is an extremely important component in treatment for PLN.

    Sharlene, I will try to be back on the forum tomorrow night after I get home from work and post a little more. Again, I am so sorry with all that you and Molly are going through right now, and also about your hubby. I will try to help with whatever I can regarding the PLN, I have done a lot of reading on that.

    Big hugs,
    Tina and Jasper xo
    The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth will ever be. ~ Konrad Lorenz

    The beautiful ones you always seem to lose. ~ Prince

    And the road goes on forever... ~ Gregg Allman

  4. #2554
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    Default Re: Molly, 10 yr, shih tzu - lhasa aspo, cushing diagnosis

    Sharlene, I'm so glad Tina is having a chance to talk with you about the food options! Here's a link we all found helpful back when Jasper was first diagnosed with PLN:

    http://dogaware.com/health/kidneyprescription.html

    It's an article by Mary Strauss with a comparative chart of commercial renal foods and other helpful info. I confess that it is confusing to fairly compare the actual protein content among the foods on the chart, because there is a big difference between "as fed" and "dry matter" basis and "per 1000 calories," the latter number not being included in the chart and perhaps it is the most important comparison of all. But there is still a lot of helpful info there, and if you click on any food, you'll be taken directly to it's website.

    For instance, here's the webpage for Royal Canin's moderately reduced protein foods. To show why I'm confused a bit about the comparisons, from their webpage it looks like the dry version has a bit higher protein while Mary's chart makes it appear that the wet version does. But either way, there is a lot of helpful info to look over.

    http://web.archive.org/web/201011270...P+Modified.pdf

    Marianne

  5. #2555
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    Default Re: Molly, 10 yr, shih tzu - lhasa aspo, cushing diagnosis

    That makes my head spin trying to sort out all that stuff. It looks like though that protein restriction can actually have adverse effects even. The key seems to be the low phosphorus in the food, not the protein. Interesting.
    I definitely need to forward this one on to my IMS for her to review too.

    Tina, that is one of the things that was mentioned, that every low protein, has a high fat content it seems, and that isn't good! So that causes me some concerns too, along with whether a low protein that is in fact too low, could cause protein malnourishment, especially in a dog caught early.

    thanks Marianne!
    hugs
    Sharlene and molly muffin
    Sharlene and the late great diva - Molly muffin (always missed and never forgotten)

  6. #2556
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    Default Re: Molly, 10 yr, shih tzu - lhasa aspo, cushing diagnosis

    Hey Sharlene, no, I don't think you are not looking for a low protein diet in Molly's situation but instead only mild/moderate protein restriction. But when a dog is persistantly leaking significant protein in the urine, you are looking at more than just phosphorous alone. The situation differs depending on the specific renal issues and abnormalities.

    Remember that low protein is unnecessary and even harmful unless your dog is uremic, but low phosphorus is advisable. Moderate protein reduction may be required if your dog has proteinuria (significant protein in the urine).
    Marianne

  7. #2557
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    Default Re: Molly, 10 yr, shih tzu - lhasa aspo, cushing diagnosis

    Here's a quote with a more extensive explanation that seems more relevant to Molly's situation. It comes from a really great IDEXX roundtable discussion on Proteinuria and Renal Disease.

    https://www.idexx.com/pdf/en_us/smal...ound-table.pdf
    Metzger: How about the nonclinical, non-azotemic animal with persistent proteinuria? If I have a senior patient with persistent proteinuria, should I initiate a renal diet?

    Sanderson: Yes, there are some indications for renal diets in the nonazotemic proteinuric patient. If you have a choice between early-stage renal diets, which tend to have a little more protein, and advanced-stage diets, go with the early-stage diet in the beginning. The benefits are the omega-3 fatty acids and the protein itself. You want to keep up with what they’re losing, but you don’t want to give them so much that more and more protein is leaked into the kidneys and causes damage. Mild dietary protein restriction is warranted in those cases. Renal diets are indicated in both chronic renal failure and glomerular disease.
    Last edited by labblab; 10-07-2014 at 05:31 PM. Reason: To reword.

  8. #2558
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    Default Re: Molly, 10 yr, shih tzu - lhasa aspo, cushing diagnosis

    Moderate protein, got it.

    Look at this:
    These are commercial foods.
    http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-d...ein-dog-foods/

    I compared the technical of Fromms Adult mature classic

    http://frommfamily.com/products/clas...ical-analysis/

    With renal mp

    http://www.royalcanin.ca/index.php/V...mulas/Renal-MP

    looks about the same, except that Fromms, has lower fat content, while Renal MP has higher fat content, which can cause other problems.

    Sharlene
    Sharlene and the late great diva - Molly muffin (always missed and never forgotten)

  9. #2559
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    Default Re: Molly, 10 yr, shih tzu - lhasa aspo, cushing diagnosis

    Couldn't get the from a food. Grabbed the blue buffalo life protection senior and a can of natural balance vegetarian

    Sharlene. Stop gap merhod
    Sharlene and the late great diva - Molly muffin (always missed and never forgotten)

  10. #2560
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    Default Re: Molly, 10 yr, shih tzu - lhasa aspo, cushing diagnosis

    Sharlene, if I'm reading the analysis lists correctly, the Fromm's has significantly more protein than the Royal Canin.

    Fromm's: 6.6 grams of protein per 100 kcal
    Royal Canin: 3.9 grams of protein per 100 kcal (listed on the chart as 39 grams per 1000 kcal)

    And the fat doesn't seem hugely different:

    Fromm's: 3.5 grams of fat per 100 kcal
    Royal Canin: 3.8 grams of fat per 100 kcal (listed on the chart as 38 grams per 1000 kcal)

    But these charts are so darn confusing, so maybe I'm missing something...

    Plus, I just looked at that DogFoodAdvisor list and I'm afraid they haven't made any effort to quantify or justify what they mean by "low protein." I mean, it just looks like they've arbitrarily picked as their criteria: "They must contain no more than 23% dry matter protein." From the article, I have no idea where they got that number or what they're basing it on. Plus, dry matter analysis isn't the most direct comparison, I don't think, because the actual amount of protein consumed will depend on how much food you'll actually feed your dog each day, and that varies depending on the calorie count comparison.

    Plus, the article acknowledges that it made no attempt to analyse phosphorous.

    I totally agree that it will be great if you can find a food with better ingredients than the the prescription diets. That's what I did with Peg when I hunted out a low-fat food for her. But unless I'm goofing up the anaysis, I think the prescription reduced protein foods are probably lower in protein content than most of the foods on this list.

    Maybe Tina will have more experience with this.
    Last edited by labblab; 10-07-2014 at 06:29 PM. Reason: To combine.

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