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Thread: Adrenal Dependent Cushings with secondary Diabetes: Squeaker needs a specialist!!!!

  1. #1
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    Default Adrenal Dependent Cushings with secondary Diabetes: Squeaker needs a specialist!!!!

    Squeaker 15 yo chihuahua was found to have BORDERLINE Cushings assumed to be apituitary related but no treatment recommended. He had Patella and ACL surgery with BG 165..Everything went fine. Over months. weight loss unable to be ignored..4/26 diagnosed with full blown ADRENAL Dependent Cushings with mass on gland that extended to caudal ven cava. Adrenalectomy considered and plan discarded by DVM after reading CT Scan= too risky Squeaker ...started initial dose of Vetoryl at 3mg..then 6mg. now 10 mg at 6am and 3 mg at 6pm..Cortisol went from ??.9 in January and 44 on 4/26??. Cortisol vs Blood Glucose challenging to deal with .His spreadsheet has hour by hour real time care listed if interested..Thank for reading Oh, I just looked at the protocol that states. "do not give am Vetoryl before test???? DVM told me to give the Vetoryl 10 mg exactly 4 hours before the test???

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...wD4/edit#gid=0
    Last edited by bichons9; 05-16-2021 at 01:14 PM. Reason: added info

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Adrenal Dependent Cushings with secondary Diabetes: Squeaker needs a specialist!!

    Hello and welcome to you and little Squeaker, although Iím surely sorry for all the challenges youíre confronting! It looks as though heís receiving very specialized care and monitoring, though, so that is an advantage. Are there any specific questions about the Cushingís that we can try to help you with? I do know that the joint regulation of diabetes and Cushingís can be tricky. Has Squeaker been dealing with diabetes for a lengthy time, or is that newly developing?

    Once again, Iím really glad youíve found us, and I hope we can help with any questions that you may have for us.

    Marianne

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Adrenal Dependent Cushings with secondary Diabetes: Squeaker needs a specialist!!

    NO!! Squeaker had torn ACL in January 2021..borderline cushings ACTH test .9 but no treatment started? When huge lweight loss noticed in April, i wondered about Diabetes only to learn Cushings ACTH test >40..BG for surgery was 165..In last year BG has been 125..so Cushings tumor?? in Adrenal gland may have been acting up up in January..I have had 3 Bichons with Cushings. They were all pituitary dependent and treatment was easy. Squeaker goes tomorrow for another ACTH teat... has been on 10 mg Trilostane 6 am and 3 mg @ 6pm since Friday..was on 6 mg after on only 3 mg. It seems as if dosage is low????? but DVM said he doesn't like to start high due to awful side effects??? The hyperglycemia is ridiculous and only regular Insulin seems to work...Does/ Has anyone had pup with Adrenal dependent Cushings??? This is new to me!!!! And as you said..difficult with both DM and cushings!!! Any indo/ advice appreciated!!!!!! I guess .9 vs >40 are the cortisol readings from the ACTH Dexamethazone test??? Thanks for reading. Fran
    Last edited by bichons9; 05-12-2021 at 04:22 PM. Reason: spelling

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Adrenal Dependent Cushings with secondary Diabetes: Squeaker needs a specialist!!

    I have reviewed your comments as well as your excel spreadsheet and it appears that the acth stimulation test used to confirm the cushing's diagnosis was done while the blood glucose was extremely high. Whenever an acth stimulation test or LDDS test is done, the vet has to make a valiant effort to gain some semblance of control of blood glucose before starting the test. Range should be between 150 and 350 mg/dl. This is equally important when doing the acth stimulation tests to monitor Vetoryl treatment. If this is not done, then the results are invalid and your vet should refund the cost of that test or credit your account. The CT findings of an adrenal tumor is not a slam dunk diagnosis of adrenal dependent cushing's. If an adrenal mass is functional, meaning the tumor has taken on a life of it's own, it doesn't care what the pituitary gland is telling it to do and keeps pumping out cortisol. Because the pituitary gland is functioning just fine, it recognizes all that cortisol in the blood and stops releasing acth. The opposing gland is not receiving that signal anymore so it goes to sleep and shrivels up. Can you please let us know what the other adrenal gland looked like? If it was normal or enlarged, then that would be a fairly good sign that the adrenal mass is not functional. I am a bit confused as to the 0.9 number you posted as being borderline cushing's. If this was an acth stimulation test result, that would indicate your dog is more likely not producing enough cortisol. I think that result is more likely the LDDS test which takes 8 hours to complete. A 0.9 ug/dl on this test is not borderline, it is negative for cushing's. Can you please look at the actual test results and confirm which test yielded that low result as well as provide the date of that test in relation to the diabetes diagnosis? Diagnosing cushing's is difficult enough but diagnosing concurrent cushing's in a diabetic dog is extremely difficult and unless it is done by the book, the likelihood of a misdiagnosis increases exponentially. Is your vet a general practitioner or an internal medicine specialist? I have provided a link below in support of the information I have provided as to proper testing protocol. It is very important that you ask your vet if he made sure blood glucose was low enough to do any cushing's tests? If the answer is no, then you may want to share this link with your vet.

    Symptoms and lab abnormalities for both diseases are much the same, except for skin and coat issues which is a symptom of cushing's, not diabetes. Does Squeaker have loss or thinning of coat? Diabetes takes priority and I highly recommend you consider joining a diabetes support group. The first few months can be a rollercoaster ride so having others who have walked in your shoes share their knowledge and experience can be a great comfort and an amazing learning experience. It looks like you are doing home testing already so you are already ahead of the curve, no pun intended.

    https://www.dvm360.com/view/diagnosi...og-proceedings

    P.S. I just noticed that your thread title says "Squeaker needs a specialist". I 100% agree! I asked whether your vet was an internal medicine specialist because if not, I was going to recommend that you ask for an immediate referral to one. I often tell members that treating both conditions is like walking a tight rope while juggling and the vast majority gp vets simply do not have the experience and extensive education to safely and effectively diagnose and treat two very serious endocrine diseases. Even before Covid, getting a consult within a week was difficult but now it's three to four weeks out. You can always do what I did to get my last cushdog seen right away. I was told by a 24/7 ER facility with internal medicine specialists on staff that if I didn't want to wait, I could bring him in through the ER. No referral necessary for that either so that's an option for you.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Adrenal Dependent Cushings with secondary Diabetes: Squeaker needs a specialist!!

    Oh my!! thanks for your reply..I am trying to get the nerve to show it to the DVM..However, I already read that one must get control of the BG before performing the ACTH test..and told him what I read. $23,000 later..I did not realize that the test was $440.00 each time...so doing one every week worried me..but mainly because of what you said and what I read. His new results are 11 post test vs the previous 44..I don't really know what it means ( I am an RN and seem to have lost brainpower..I am so tired..since I have 2 insulin-dependent diabetics and a cat now in remission thanks to the cat people in their wonderful forum.. They were there every minute to get me through the cat's diabetes telling me what to do that put him (Elliott) in remission (Lantus) ....never saw DVM for the cat after having the expertise of the cat people. Yes, I belong to the Canine diabetes forum ..Natalie used to help me with Suzie on Vetsulin, that I hate. but seems to do okay after 4 years on it. No, the DVM's are not certified internal medicine specialists but are referred to by the other local DVM's. After all, I am not in NY anymore..I am in "good ole Mississippi" I used to take 3 of my Bichons to Mississippi State Univ..but they have not offered to help me with Suzie's crazy BG -will go through DVM if asked. and my dislike of Vetsulin by Merck..They claim they look at my ss but ..... Her ss is a mess. You seem to have great wisdom and knowledge..I would like to share the CT results and Dex test with you but don't want to be inappropriate..expecting more from you. Marley (1 of7 dogs)_ has pulmonary hypertension..went to the "supposed" ER...It was unreal and they did not know what to do..they gave her Stadol (human name) and let her go after 40 minutes..She couldn't breathe and my DVM said luckily I got her to him by 7: 30 am..She is on 8 meds/day and is doing well....sorry for rambling but I just sit here and stare waiting for what is to happen next!!! I don't know if you can open this: file:///C:/Users/bicho/Downloads/SQUEEKER-MUNSCHAUER-2021-05-14-0914.pdf..Also, file:///C:/Users/bicho/Downloads/203647541_8F140183-813A-4131-B976-7B19D66CABBF.pdf..I am desperate for help.. Oh...DVM said to give the Vetoryl exactly 4 hours before test..the new protocol shared with me states NOT to give the Vetoryl ..I give up on what to do....and no thinning of coat...weight loss was 11lbs now 8lbs, > H20 and urination...Fran...Thanks so much!!!
    Last edited by bichons9; 05-16-2021 at 01:19 PM. Reason: added info

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Adrenal Dependent Cushings with secondary Diabetes: Squeaker needs a specialist!!

    Oh well, I tried 4X to send reports..don't know if you got them..Thanks

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Adrenal Dependent Cushings with secondary Diabetes: Squeaker needs a specialist!!

    You can search for an IMS on the ACVM website found here:

    https://vetspecialists.com/

    I did a search for Mississippi and found these results:

    https://find.vetspecialists.com/sear...IYR2qbc6X8XDWI

    Hope that helps with the search for a specialist!
    Hugs,
    Leslie
    "May you know that absence is full of tender presence and that nothing is ever lost or forgotten." John O'Donahue, "Eternal Echoes"

    Death is not a changing of worlds as most imagine, as much as the walls of this world infinitely expanding.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Adrenal Dependent Cushings with secondary Diabetes: Squeaker needs a specialist!!

    Hi again, Fran. Gosh, Iím sure sorry youíre having such a rough time with so many of your furkids! I do agree that consultation with a specialist seems advisable, and from the link that Leslie gave you, it looks as though Mississippi State and LSU vet schools are your best bets depending on your location. Since you say youíve already taken pets to Mississippi State, Iím assuming thatís closest. For me, the status of that adrenal tumor would be a big question mark to try to unravel. Iím afraid Iím not really knowledgeable about adrenal tumors, but as Glynda has written above, I do know they can take different forms in terms of hormone production and overall severity of effect. It would indeed be interesting for us to read that ultrasound report. If you canít upload it to your Google docs, maybe you could just take a photo of it and upload that here as a picture in your photo album. Or as a last resort, just type the relevant portion of the report in a reply here on your thread.

    In the meantime, as far as the timing of giving the Vetoryl in conjunction with monitoring cortisol testing, your vet is correct that the medication should be given (along with a full meal) about four hours prior to performing a full ACTH stimulation test. An alternative testing protocol involves taking a blood sample right *before* giving the daily Vetoryl dose. This second protocol involves measuring only the baseline cortisol level, not the combination of the baseline and a subsequent stimulated level as is the case with the ACTH. The full ACTH probably remains more widely accepted among vets in the U.S., and it sounds as though itís the protocol that your vet prefers.

    However, going full circle, it seems as though there are enough questions about Squeakerís entire diagnostic picture that a consultation with a specialist about his testing and his treatment truly would be warranted. Please do keep us updated.

    Marianne

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Adrenal Dependent Cushings with secondary Diabetes: Squeaker needs a specialist!!

    Thanks..I will try to upload the C-T report

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Adrenal Dependent Cushings with secondary Diabetes: Squeaker needs a specialist!!

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...3SPQe-fDc/edit C-T SCAN

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...MLy6v7Eaw/edit 2nd ACTH Stim test..First test on 4/27/2021 was Pre= 7 post= 44.4 ..I don't know why 1st test is not showing up in google docs??? Please let me know if this worked..Thanks again!!!!

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