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Thread: (11 y/o female Border collie mix) Oreo

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    Default (11 y/o female Border collie mix) Oreo

    I just want to say, I'm a newbie to this site, my name is Kris and my 11 yr old female Border collie mix, Oreo has been diagnosis with Cushing's. I want to say as a Acupuncture Physician, I can't believe that not many of you on this site are embracing a 5000 yr old tradition. Acupuncture and chinese herbal medicine can help all our dogs, cure them maybe not, but the idea is to manage symptoms and this medicine can be used in conjunction with the "chemo drugs". The problem with using this medicine is not many holistic vets have enough training to be able to write an herbal formula and understand how to change the formula as needed. And I haven't meet very many vets that understand nutrition. So, my advise to you all is to do your due dilligence, DON"T ASK YOUR NON-HOLISTIC VET ABOUT WHAT BRAND OF DOG FOOD to buy, they don't not have nutrition classes as part of their studies and are bias from Science Diet giving them free food for their pet(s) while they are in vet school, as evidence of having the Science Diet food in their offices', which is the worst food on the market with corn and wheat as fillers, causing many of the dogs' allergies and then the vet puts the dogs on pred, anyway. So far Oreo symptoms are mild, started panting alittle at night, always hungry and drinking just alittle more and of course that pot-bellied apperance. All these signs are too much heat in the body, so I am giving her a Chinese herbal formula called Long Dan Xie Gan Tang and in 2 days her panting has stopped, she drinks less water and doesn't seem to be as hungry. I am going to recommend a holistic veterinary book for those of you who are interested, it is called, Manual of Natural Veterinary Medicine by Susan Wynn and Steve Marsden, both DVM, it gives treatment options for 130 common conditions and they mentioned the above herbal formula as well as using Ginko to bind with the cortisol for hyperadrenocorticism. Anyway, nice to find you guys and what a wealth of information. Kris
    Last edited by chrispet; 04-29-2011 at 12:07 AM.

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    Default Re: (11 y/o female Border collie mix) Oreo

    Hi Kris,

    Welcome to our site. I am sorry your Oreo has been diagnosed with Cushings.

    When you get the chance, post the results of the tests that were performed to come to this diagnosis.

    Diet does seem to be a major topic whether concerning Cushing's or non-Cushing's pups. There are so many options and individual success stories it is at times a bit difficult to determine which one is best. From my own experience, my vet never pushed any brand of food, but rather taking a look at the dog and mentioning the elements of a good diet that fits the dog and any health conditions that may exist.

    I hope your Oreo does well with the herbs you are currently giving. My only experience with any of the holistic herbs is that the symptoms may seem to be abated, but the not the cause.

    Keep us posted
    Terry

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    Default Re: (11 y/o female Border collie mix) Oreo

    Hello and welcome to the forum Kris. I'm sorry to hear that your poor little dog has also been afflicted by this damn disease.You have definitely come to the right place. The people here are great and they have a wealth of very helpful information and they are always ready to give you support.
    Regarding your discourse about the acupuncture and the complete holistic approach to treatment. I personally would not totally rely on this alone. Don't get me wrong, I am all for giving herbal supplements to help my dog combat this illness, but she also has the proper medication created to treat Cushings.
    I have seen too many tragic situations involving people who have opted for the holistic approach. I have known two young dogs who have died and the problem could have been fixed with a simple medicine! A friend of mine ended up with kidney failure, another in a diabetic coma. My father took a very expensive chinese herb for cancer and died anyway and it didn't even help his symtoms! I know of lots of people who have had acupuncture for a variety of problems and it has not helped in the slightest. I do believe in the power of herbs, but I don't have that much faith in them to depend on them only. I think there are some illnesses where you just have to take the chemical crap if you want to live a bit longer and I want my dog to live a bit longer. She started Vetoryl and she is doing fine. Her symptoms are starting to disappear, so I'm carrying on down the road which I have chosen. Plus, to be honest, I'm already paying out more than what I can afford, but I know that once she is stabilized it will cost less. Acupuncture plus all the supplements would be an extra expense which I can't afford. This is my own personal opinion.....
    Kepp us posted on Oreo's progress and I hope your little doggie feels better soon!

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    Default Re: (11 y/o female Border collie mix) Oreo

    Hi and Welcome from me as well,

    I understand the Chinese principles of medicine and the concept of cool food, warming foods, too much heat, stagnation, all of it. I think acupuncture is great. I too though feel we reach a point where western medicine may be needed depending on the dog and if there are any other illnesses present. I always felt the best of both worlds was to have a traditional vet along with a holistic vet to share in the health of a dog.

    We look forward to hearing your insight and sharing thoughts and ideas.

    Sorry about your pup.

    Hugs,
    Addy

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    Default Re: (11 y/o female Border collie mix) Oreo

    Hi Kris,

    The text you mentioned by Drs. Wynne and Marsden is one that I use in my nutrition studies and it does have some really great info, as does Dr. Sean Messionnier's, The Natural Health Bible for Dogs & Cats.

    The debate between Holistic approaches VS Western medicine is as heated and, often, narrow-minded as the one between raw and cooked feeders. The key is the bio-individualism of our babies - no two dogs are alike so what works for one may not work for another.

    I home-cook for my babies and use many supplements/herbs in their care and treatments for various conditions - but I cannot in good conscience limit their options by focusing on one modality over the others. Personally, I usually start from a nutriceutical position and go from there because I believe nutrition is the foundation. If Western pharmaceuticals are required, I use them too because doing the best, all, I can for my babies is my job.

    One point I want to make for our members is that Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) is PART of the Holistic approaches used. TCM is not the whole of Holistic medicine - only one portion of it. Holistic medicine encompasses TCM, nutriceuticals, homeopathy, Rieki, naturopathics, Ayurvedic, as well as other methods of treatment. Holistic medicine aims to treat the "whole", not the symptoms or disease - hence "whole-listic" (Holistic).

    I hope you will continue with testing on Oreo and post what those results are as her treatment continues. I think it would help our members a great deal to share the journey you and Oreo are taking and see the results you are getting. What is in this formula you are currently using - Long Dan Xie Gan Tang? Did you mix it yourself or did a TCM vet do it for you? I think it would be incredibly interesting to know how to combine these herbs - better yet to grow, harvest and use them! What fun that would be!

    I look forward to seeing Oreo's diagnostic results and to keeping up with ya'll on this journey!

    Hugs,
    Leslie and the gang
    "May you know that absence is full of tender presence and that nothing is ever lost or forgotten." John O'Donahue, "Eternal Echoes"

    Death is not a changing of worlds as most imagine, as much as the walls of this world infinitely expanding.

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    Default Re: (11 y/o female Border collie mix) Oreo

    One thing I forgot to say is that I would be interested in doing the home cooking bit for Maya, but I would be worried about her not getting all the vitamins and things she needs to stay healthy. I did start cooking vegetables, meat and rice for her a while and she started getting fat because I didn't know how much to give her. At the moment she has Hill's Natures best dry dog food mixed with a bit of boiled chicken. Recently, I have been thinking about changing over to Almo nature Holistic dog . It's a hard one to fathom!
    Leah and Maya

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    Default Re: (11 y/o female Border collie mix) Oreo

    Hello Kris and welcome to you and Oreo.

    If you have read many threads here, you will see that we ask a lot of questions initially so let me be the first to ask you to please let us know which diagnostic tests were done to diagnose Oreo and which form of cushing's was diagnosed? Can you please post the results of all tests here. With respect to bloodwork, please just post the abnormal values, including the normal reference range.

    Please see my additional comments and questions in blue text below.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrispet View Post
    I just want to say, I'm a newbie to this site, my name is Kris and my 11 yr old female Border collie mix, Oreo has been diagnosis with Cushing's. I want to say as a Acupuncture Physician, I can't believe that not many of you on this site are embracing a 5000 yr old tradition.

    I'm not exactly sure what an acupuncture physician is. Are you a degreed veterinarian or human MD/DO? As far as your question regarding embracing a 5000 yr old tradition, I feel the same way Leah does. Both of my cushdogs' symptoms are being effectively controlled by Lysodren so there is no need to incur the additional cost of acupuncture. However, if my dogs were experiencing chronic arthritic pain, I wouldn't hesitate to seek out a veterinarian trained in acupuncture. We do have members who take their dog for acupuncture therapy and we've had good reports on it. Hopefully those members will chime in and share their experience with you.

    Acupuncture and chinese herbal medicine can help all our dogs, cure them maybe not, but the idea is to manage symptoms and this medicine can be used in conjunction with the "chemo drugs". The problem with using this medicine is not many holistic vets have enough training to be able to write an herbal formula and understand how to change the formula as needed.

    Another problem for me, when talking about herbal medicine, is the fact that there are no published studies on any herb, or combination of herbs, proving it's effectiveness in treating the root cause of cushing's. You'd think that in 5,000 years, somebody would have done some clinical trials or published a study or two. If you are aware of any, can you please provide a link?


    And I haven't meet very many vets that understand nutrition. So, my advise to you all is to do your due dilligence, DON"T ASK YOUR NON-HOLISTIC VET ABOUT WHAT BRAND OF DOG FOOD to buy, they don't not have nutrition classes as part of their studies and are bias from Science Diet giving them free food for their pet(s) while they are in vet school, as evidence of having the Science Diet food in their offices', which is the worst food on the market with corn and wheat as fillers, causing many of the dogs' allergies and then the vet puts the dogs on pred, anyway.

    I totally agree.

    So far Oreo symptoms are mild, started panting alittle at night, always hungry and drinking just alittle more and of course that pot-bellied apperance. All these signs are too much heat in the body, so I am giving her a Chinese herbal formula called Long Dan Xie Gan Tang and in 2 days her panting has stopped, she drinks less water and doesn't seem to be as hungry.

    With cushing's, the symptoms you mention are due to high levels of cortisol in the blood. Is that the same thing as too much heat in the body? If not, what does too much heat in the body mean? Since starting Oreo on herbal treatment, have you had an acth stimulation test done to see if the herbs are actually lowering the cortisol?

    I am going to recommend a holistic veterinary book for those of you who are interested, it is called, Manual of Natural Veterinary Medicine by Susan Wynn and Steve Marsden, both DVM, it gives treatment options for 130 common conditions and they mentioned the above herbal formula as well as using Ginko to bind with the cortisol for hyperadrenocorticism. Anyway, nice to find you guys and what a wealth of information. Kris

    What does bind with the cortisol mean and how does that equate to alleviating symptoms? I understand the mechanisms of action for Lysodren and Trilostane but this herbal stuff is a mystery to me.
    I'm looking forward to learning a lot more about Oreo, herbs and acupuncture. I'm glad you found us.

    Glynda

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    Default Re: (11 y/o female Border collie mix) Oreo

    Hi Kris,

    Corky and I also want to welcome you and Oreo.

    You have found a wonderful group of very caring, supportive and knowledgeable people. I'm glad you found us.

    Terri

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    Default Re: (11 y/o female Border collie mix) Oreo

    accupuncture???? INTERESTING!

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