Border Terrier with Cushings had a possible stroke or brain tumor?-Ollie has passed

Hi All -
My Border Terrier Ollie is 13 1/2 and has been living with Cushings Disease and Water Diabetes for about 6 years now. He takes Vetoryl and Desmopressin 2x daily and has been very well managed by his great doctor in NYC for years now. Yesterday, however, he had some kind of seizure after lunch with his head tilted down and was turning in weird circles and his legs gave out. It only lasted about 3-5 minutes and he was pretty calm. He got back up and ate and was fairly normal. But then he had a much worse episode where he was pacing and turning and disoriented and walking in weird circles. His legs kept giving out as well.

We're living in the middle of nowhere because of Covid this year, but we drove two hours to the emergency vet hospital. They weren't super helpful. It could be a brain tumor or a stroke but the vet wasn't sure at his age and with all of his underlying issues if it was worth doing the MRI since we probably can't do anything for either. I'm heading back to NYC Monday and have an appointment with our vet there but does anyone have any experience with older dogs and either strokes/brain tumors?

The old guy is up and walking, eating and resting a lot today but no seizures. His back legs have given out a few times. It's all a bit heartbreaking. I'd always thought it would be his kidneys that would go, but I"m not sure how much time he has left now given whatever is going on. He's a really anxious dog and I'm not sure I want to subject him to a lot of unnecessary vet/hospital visits.

I haven't posted before - but I have read a lot of the forums over the year. It's been a great resource and I appreciate the community.

Hi, we are glad you and Ollie introduced yourselves! :)

At first I thought it might be Vestibular Disease but that typically sticks around for a while once it shows up, not coming and going in episodes like you have described. So my thoughts are the same as yours now - either a seizure disorder or something with the brain itself. In the pituitary form of Cushing's the tumor on the pituitary gland typically remains microscopic causing nothing more than the usual cush signs. However, in rare cases that tumor starts to grow becoming a macroadenoma, or macro for short. It causes neurological signs just as any tumor on the brain can. There are other types of brain tumors of course but as far as I know the only way to determine if this is what is going on is either a CT scan or MRI. If you weren't going to treat via radiation or surgery then I'm not sure I would go to the expense of either of those tests unless simply knowing is that important. One thing to consider is the Vetoryl - cortisol is a natural anti-inflammatory and with macros it is usually best to stop the Vetoryl and let the cortisol rise which will help slow the growth. Otherwise lowering the cortisol allows the tumor to grow more rapidly. I am going to give you a link on the forum that was started by a member in 2011 whose baby developed a macro. Others added their stories over the years in order to help those who came after and faced this same diagnosis. You can read thru and see if anything in these stories fits with Ollie.

I would also try to get him in to see a vet who can talk to you about seizure vs macro as soon as possible. Hopefully with the vaccine being given to more and more of us things will loosen up soon. I have a dog who has focal seizures but her episodes display as a feral dog - she doesn't recognize anyone or anything as opposed to what we typically think of happening with seizures. Another of my babies had one episode that could have been a seizure in which she when limp, fell to the floor and seemed disoriented for a few seconds. She was a little out of it for a few minutes after. But it happened only that once thankfully.

You can use the search feature on the forum to look for "seizure" and "macro" too which should take you to threads and/or posts where these topics are discussed. Here is that link on macros:

https://www.k9cushings.com/forum/sho...-Macroadenomas

I'm glad you decided to talk to us and look forward to learning more. Please stay in touch and let us know how your sweet baby boy is doing.
Hugs,
Leslie

Hello and welcome from me, too. Leslie has done a great job of covering the bases re: the possibility of an enlarging pituitary tumor, so I don’t really have anything to add in that regard. If you do take look at the macrotumor link that she gave you, you’ll see my story there about my experiences with my own Cushpup.

In addition, I do have experience with seizure disorder in my non-Cushpup Lab girl. She started exhibiting grand mal seizures of unexplained origin around the age of six. During an episode, she would suddenly get very agitated and uncoordinated, trying to run around in circles but finally falling to her side and “paddling” with her legs. I would guess each episode would last maybe 3-5 minutes. We decided against the brain imaging, too, and instead tried her on an experimental course of phenobarbital. Miraculously, she responded with a minimum of side effects and total remission of her seizures. We were very, very lucky. She stayed on the phenobarb for the rest of her life, and lived until age 12.

Phenobarb is one of the older anti-seizure meds — several newer ones are in use now. I’m thinking that your vet may recommend just giving some medication a try, too, rather than launching into involved diagnostics at this stage. Regardless of what ends up being recommended, though, please do come back and let us know, OK?

Marianne

Thank you both for these amazing responses. It's so helpful and I look forward to reading more about Macro tumors which sounds like it could be a real possibility. I, too, had wondered about Vestibular Disease but his recovery has been so quick that I don't think that's the case.

I hadn't realized that about the Vetoryl possibly causing the tumor to grow more quickly, so I'll ask my vet about that. I had a dog with epilepsy in the past, so I've been through that as well - this seems very different.

He's got so much life in him- I'm always amazed how he bounces back at times I think it's impossible. Hopefully there will be some good days ahead. I appreciate the support - and help. Will keep you posted!

Michele

Hi again, Michele! Definitely do take a look at that macroadenoma thread in order to see if any of it corresponds with what you’re experiencing now with Ollie. In terms of treatment, one paradox you will see is that Cushpups with suspected macros are sometimes given both trilostane and prednisone, simultaneously. The explanation is given in that thread, so I won’t take the time to rewrite it here. I think the jury may still be out as to whether or not trilostane actually hastens tumor growth significantly. I’m afraid I haven’t been following recent research in that regard closely. But either way, allowing a higher level of circulating steroids can reduce the swelling and inflammation of the tissue of the brain that the tumor may be affecting. So either stopping the trilostane, or combining the trilo with prednisone are both strategies that we’ve seen employed.

Good luck with your vet visit, though, and maybe some other possibilities will emerge, both in terms of causation and treatment. I surely hope you’ll be able to find a way to make Ollie as comfortable as possible, no matter what is going on.

Marianne

Hi Marianne,
I have been reading through the thread (I had to drive back to NYC this morning so I had a lot of distractions getting ready :)

I do think this is probably a good explanation of what's happening with Ollie. I don't know how I confused him being on Vetoryl when he's really on Trilostane. The medication he's on is still managing his Cushings and Water Diabetes fairly well, but I'll have to ask the doctor about what it means if he's got a tumor.

Oddly he hasn't had another episode and he's a lot stronger again, his hind legs are holding him up pretty well, though he does appear weaker to me and he's still looking for more water than usual. Did any of you notice there there were bouts when things seemed a bit better? The vet seemed to imply that with this kind of thing it would just depend on when the seizures came so frequently that he was suffering and we'd know it was time to free him from his pain. He's already 13.5 and so I don't see the point of putting him through all of the tests to find out exactly what it is as there really isn't much to do at this point from what I've read except keep him happy as possible so we call all enjoy the time he remains with us.

It was a bit heartbreaking reading through the Macro thread. It's like I know what's coming, but it's so hard. I haven't cried this much in a long time. It's nice to have some good time with him now though and I'll appreciate every moment.

Thanks to everyone on this forum - it's really been the best resource for Cushings information I've found. It's a tricky disease and vets often don't have the time to really explain to you what to expect. Although, I'e been fortunate to have very good ones.

I'll keep you posted.

Michele

Dear Michele,

Cry all you need. It is good for the Soul. All those tears are simply a way to honor the love you and Ollie share. I lost my beloved Squirt in 2014 from old age and I still cry for her often. There is no shame in feeling such a depth of emotion or love and letting that show.

Please know we are here any time should you wish to talk, cry, vent, holler, whatever. We understand very well where you are and how you are feeling. You are not alone.
Hugs,
Leslie

Thanks, Leslie. I really appreciate this. I've lost dogs before, but Ollie's been like my shadow from day one. He hasn't been an easy dog because of all his health problems, but he's the sweetest. It is never easy to say goodbye to beloved pets.

I really appreciate having been able to read about your journey with Squirt (and Marianne's with Barkis and the others on that thread) as it's the only way I'd have any idea what was going on. Ollie is at the point where he's recovered a bit but then he'll get unstead and fall into me, or into a wall like he's drunk without any warning. Sometimes it's like he can't see. But the past few days have been pretty "normal." I'll talk to the vet this week to come up with a plan to make him as comfortable and pain free as possible until it gets too hard. But, I so appreciate that I could share this here. Because Cushings is a hard road for dogs and their owners, and so I know everyone here gets it. Thanks again.

I have nothing to add, I just wanted to send you and sweet Ollie some huge loving hugs. Please do keep us updated and talk to us as much as you want, we are here for you and Ollie.

More hugs, Lori

Thank you!

Crying definitely helps. I lost my Lena five years ago and still cry. There's not a day that goes by that I don't think about her, see something that reminds me of her, and talk to her...sometimes out loud if I'm not careful. It's very hard when they are sick and we see the signs. I'm noticing that my big guy Gable is having more trouble standing and getting up, his back legs are getting weaker. He's so sweet and good natured and I hate to see him struggling.

I don't know what I would've done without this forum and all of my friends here...we're a family.

Awwwww, giant hugs from me, too!! Please come back to us any time to talk. That’s the only thing that’s kept me sane through the illnesses and losses of my furbabies, too — the love and support of our little family here. Everybody here understands how hard this all can be.

Also, don’t worry at all about using the terms Vetoryl and trilostane. Trilostane is the name of the active chemical ingredient in brandname Vetoryl. So they’re actually the same medication, regardless of which name you’re using. I often interchange the two words when I’m typing my own replies. So that’s my bad, too.

No matter what is truly going on with Ollie, I send you my hope that you’ll indeed be able to smother him with love and also settle your own heart and mind as much as possible. That’s a goal that’s still quite a long reach for me. I always get so worried and scared and anxious when there’s anything wrong. I end up worrying away the chance for peaceful moments spent together when those moments are the most important. So I wish peace and comfort for you both in the days ahead. And I hope you’ll still have many good days to share together.

Marianne

Ollie had a pretty great week, hardly any symptoms, eating well and even playing! The vet agreed that she thought from what I was describing that he most likely has a brain tumor as all of his other tests came back fine for Cushings/UTIs etc. Without an MRI I'll never know for certain, but I also don't want to risk putting him under for something I can't do anything about. I think last night he started having mild seizures again and this morning he couldn't stand up because his hind legs were so weak. He could walk once we helped him stand but is fragile, almost teetering. He's gotten a little stronger through the day, but I imagine we may have days and not weeks left. I'm glad he lived a full life right up until this time and maintained his youthfulness so long. I'm glad I was able to get so much information on here about pituitary tumors because I feel a lot more at peace knowing what is going on. The vet pretty much confirmed everything I'd seen on here - she also said that steroids probably wouldn't help at this point because he'd had such an adverse reaction to them a few weeks ago. So, it's just going to be a waiting game now to keep him as comfortable as possible. I'm glad my son can make it down to say goodbye tomorrow, though I imagine that won't be easy for any of us.

Thanks again to everyone on here for the support and kindness. It has been so appreciated during such a difficult time! Michele

Tons of loving hugs being sent your way. ♥

Oh Michele, we’ll be holding Ollie and all your family in our hearts during the coming days. I’m so glad you’ve had that special week together — it’ll be a time to treasure in your memory forever. I send you continuing hugs, too. Just remember we’re always here, walking right alongside you. And all our Cush-angels will be lined up to greet Ollie at the moment he passes, whenever that may turn out to be. He will never be alone, either.

Do take care, and please give Ollie a giant loving hug from us all, too. He is such a good, dear boy. Forever.
Marianne

Hugs from me, too...

Dear Michele,

It is so hard to be where you are knowing what is coming. But your love for Ollie will give you the strength to be by his side all the way. Fill these days with as much joy as you can for the both of you. When I knew my beloved Squirt's time was near I spent hours talking to her about all the places we had been, all the friends we had made; we went to see the people she loved most like my brother and took short trips to nearby places she had always enjoyed. I fed her all the things she most loved to eat and denied her nothing. I talked to her about what was to come, that she was going to see her Sissy and my dad, and the pets she had grown up with; and that one day I would join them. Just holding her and looking into her eyes filled us both with peace. She knew as well as I that soon we wouldn't be able to do these things or talk about these things. Those were difficult days yet days I wouldn't change for much of anything. You know what means the most to you and Ollie and you know how to fill these remaining days with the things that you both treasure.

Know you are not alone. We are here if you need to talk, cry, anything.
Hugs and belly rubs,
Leslie

Instructions To a Guardian Angel of Dogs

Hello. I’ve been expecting you for quite some time.
Here, come sit beside us for awhile
and let me tell you about this old friend of mine.

He might look tattered or maybe old
But I won’t say goodbye until you’ve been told.

He had the brightest eyes I had ever seen,
And wore a beautiful fur coat that would out shine a king.
He was never prissy but walked with an aire ……
And oh so polite, you could take him most anywhere.

He could run like the wind and could catch anything he chased
But he protected and sat with me when I had problems to face.
You could not find a friend nearly so dear
Because no matter the trouble he always stayed near.

He has never asked for much from me
Just to love and respect him and I think you’ll agree
To give him a good meal plus a nice warm bed is not much to ask
When he has given me all his love and to him this was no task.

Now I understand you have a schedule to keep
But I have a small favor before he nods off to sleep.
Please fold your wings around him and let him feel young while in no pain.

Dear Guardian Angel of Pets,
please keep him safe and happy until I see him again.

By Ginger Patton

Ollie passed peacefully at home on Friday surrounded by family. It was by far the hardest thing I've ever had to do. He was my shadow and it felt like I was losing a part of myself. But, his condition was deteriorating to the point where I was risking him being in terrible pain, so I had to let him go. We were so lucky to find someone to come to our home and then find a place where they let us take him ourselves and wait for his ashes so he was never alone. It was one of the oldest pet cemeteries in the country I think - filled with an array of pets since 1896. I found it very peaceful there - the owners were so caring and treated Ollie so well.

Thank you all for your compassion these past few weeks. It made this heartbreaking experience so much more bearable. Finding this forum was a real lifesaver. Love to all of you and the pups in your lives dealing with this difficult disease.

Michele

Awww, Michele, I'm so sorry. Ollie was a lucky baby to have you as his mom. What is the name of that pet cemetery? It does sound very peaceful...I wish that my Lena hadn't died alone in the Emergency Clinic. It is one of my biggest regrets, not being with her when she left me. I don't know what I would've done without my family on this forum...

Many, many hugs to you and your family during this heartbreaking time.

Love,
Joan

Dear Michele,

I am so sorry to hear Ollie's day came so soon. But I know he is grateful to you for all the loving care you gave him over the years and for this final gift. And I have no doubt that he left this life on the wings of the love the two of you shared.

My deepest sympathies,
Leslie

WHEN TOMORROW STARTS WITHOUT ME

When tomorrow starts without me
And I’m not here to see
If the sun should rise and find your eyes
All filled with tears for me

I wish you wouldn’t cry
The Way you did today
While thinking of the many things
We did not get to say

I know how much you love me
As much as I love you
Each time that you think of me
I know you will miss me too

When tomorrow starts with out me
Please try to understand
That an angel came and called my name
And took me by the hand

The angel said my place was ready
In heaven far above
And That I would have to leave behind
All those I Dearly Love

But When I walked through Heaven’s Gates
I felt so much at home
When God looked down and smiled at me
From his golden throne

He said This Is Eternity
And All I promised you
Today for life on earth is done
But Here it starts a new

I promise no tomorrow
For today will always last
And Since each day’s the exact same way
There is no longing for the past

So When Tomorrow starts without me
Do not think we’re apart
For every time you think of me
Remember I’m right here in your heart

Author: David M Romano

Dear Michele,

I am so terribly sorry for the loss of your dear boy, Ollie, and my heart goes out to you. Please know we are here for you, and if at any time you would want to share more about your precious boy we would be honored to listen.

I have added Ollie's name to our "In Loving Memory" forum, and please know that Ollie will always be honored and remembered here amidst all our beloved pups who have passed on. If you’d like for us to add a photo link to his memorial line, it would be our privilege to do so. At any time, you can send a photo of your choice to us at k9cushings@gmail.com, and we’ll take it from there.

Sending tons of loving hugs your way.

With Heartfelt Sympathy,
Lori

Michele,
So sorry to hear the news of Ollie. Sending lots of love to you and your family.
Best,
Jennifer