Squirt - my Queen has crossed The Bridge

Hi ya'll,

Well my twitcher has been activated tonite....Squirt just peed right in front of Jim and I then went out and peed 3 more times! geez....So I will be calling Dr C in the morning and get testing started. I guess an ACTH tho I know Dr C would prefer the LDDS. I also want blood work done since it's been a while. Her other hormones haven't been checked since last Aug. so I may go ahead and have the full panel done this time. And, of course, this could be a simple UTI. The urine was pale yellow, didn't have a strong odor at all, and the stream was solid, so maybe not. Who knows?! That's why we pay our docs, huh?

She has been panting some and shedding some but it isn't "hair loss" per se, just typical summer shedding...I think. She has lost a lot of her long hair, tho. The panting may be due to the heat lately but it's best to find out.

I'll let ya'll know what comes next!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

Hey there...

Wishing you luck and hoping it is "just" Percy lurking about! He seems to be making the rounds, doesn't he?

Let us know what happens!

Love and hugs, Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

Hi Leslie,
Keeping fingers and 16 paws crossed that whatever it is, is a simple matter.

Hi Leslie,

Hoping it's something easy to fix. Good luck and hugs to you and the girls.

Luv,
Lynne and Lady 7/98-3/09

Hi ya'll,

Thanks for the kind words and well-wishes for us. We couldn't do this without ya'll.

After some consideration, I decided to have the UTK panel done again and a full blood work up. After the fiasco :p last time, Dr C would prefer that the IMS do the panel unless it's going to be a while before they can get us in, then she will do it. So, I have a call into him and am waiting for the call-back. I have asked for the UTK panel, full blood panel and urinalysis.

It's ridiculous but I am a nervous wreck! :eek: Ever since her surgery and the follow-up ACTH that had such a great post number, 14.2 ug/dl, that I have held fast to the hope that tumor was the cause of all her endocrine problems. I have wanted to believe she is NOT Atypical or PDH...and now this test will tell me whether I am wrong or not. Her docs have felt this could true, too. !!twitch!! !!twitch!!

About the melatonin....after talking with Dr O, I decided to cut it by 1/4. She gets 1.5mg in the morning and 3mg at nite. She is more alert and active during the day, wanting to be with me again instead of sleeping all the time. So, unless her other hormones come back out of whack again, this is what we will stick with for now.

That's all for now...and I'm gonna go freak out for a bit! :eek::eek::rolleyes: ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Hugs,
Leslie and Squirt

Hey,

Just heard back from the IMS and she goes in Wed. at 8:30am for the UTK panel, blood work and urinalysis.

Oh dear god.....the wait has just begun...:eek::eek: awww geez....

Dearest Leslie and Squirt,

Wishing you both all the luck, well wishes, healing thoughts and prayers. :)

Lori and Harley

Thanks, Lori. :)

Apparently I need them....I just burned a pot of rice and quinoa, and one of liver...my house STINKS to high heaven!! :rolleyes: Am I distracted? pre-occupied? Moi?!?!? :p

Hi Leslie,

Just saw the latest. This is Squirt trying to communicate with you in my view and I am hoping it means an UTI which would be the simplest outcome.

Waiting to hear more, how is she behaving recently.

Scott

Hi Leslie,

Will keep my fingers crossed everything turns out fine for Squirt... But untill you have the results...tv dinners perhaps? :D

Saskia and Yunah :)

Saskia, the burned food was part of Squirt's menu for the week. I can't believe I handle liver for her, but I do! Parts....UGH! :eek: This is Gary's last nite with us before he goes to see his mom so I am cooking what he asked for - hotdogs with mac-n-cheese and home-made applesauce. So far so good on our feed! :p

Scott....behaviors...well, the ones I have seen could also be related to the heat - panting, laying on the tiles from time to time, shedding - so until the pee incident I wasn't too concerned, but have been watching. Since the reduction in melatonin, she has been more alert and active during the day, altho when we had a guest the other day, she didn't stick around much. And her eyes have been kinda sad at times the last few days, especially at nite. :( But today she has been fine, laying on the bed with me, in the office with me, outside only twice today so far, no excessive drinking or asking for a drink while in the bed and her eyes are bright.

I just found a tick while brushing her and after pulling it off, I had to use one of those bleeding sticks. It wouldn't stop bleeding! I don't recall that ever happening. That's the first tick she's had this year. After Gary leaves we are gonna clean out his "forts" and such, then attack the ticks and other bugs. I use Comfortis for the fleas and it works great! but doesn't work on ticks at all. That bleeding was strange, tho. Being a worry wart, I know. :o

Hugs to all,
Leslie and Squirt

Hi Leslie,

If you cook alot of rice... I highly suggest a rice cooker - I don't know what I would have done without mine. I can never get rice right without it. I think some cookers are better than others - mine is the "Tiger" brand. I seriously don't think its possible to burn rice with it:p. I have also done the overcooked rice with it (creates a little mess where the vent is, but no biggie).

I hope all goes well with the tests... and hope for no more ticks!!!

-Susy

Hi ya'll,

GOOD NEWS so far! :D Part of the blood work is back in and her IMS said it is perfect except for a slight increase in liver values. They are:

ALKP - 260
ALT - 129

He said they are no high enough to worry about right now or to start any meds other than the supplements I am using now. He said it would take an ultrasound to see if the Burdock was really helping to clean out the gall bladder sludge, but based on the labs, he said it certainly isn't hurting anything!

I was concerned about any possible problems with her spleen or the tumor possibly returning or they had missed a small part and it was causing problems, but all is well there, too! RBC and WBC, platelets, etc. are all NORMAL!!!! :D:D:D

She does have a low-grade UTI...a rare bacteria is what he called it?...and she will start Amoxycillan (sp?) today for that. But he said her kidney values were fine, no problems there at all other than this bacteria.

Her IMS said with values this good, he's not worried about anything with her right now! Apparently there is still some more lab work to come in and of course the UTK panel, but based on what has already come in, he is very happy. ME, TOO!!!

Now all I have to do is keep it together for another week and a half or so til the UTK panel comes in. :p

Hugs,
Leslie and Squirt

Leslie, Preventic collars work like a charm. When I first adopted Chewy, he brought some of those nasty, unwanted visitors from Texas with him. I found them, first, on Barkley. Within several days, I found them on the other 2 dogs. I was trying every product I could find to purchase with limited success. I had even made an appointment for an exterminator to bomb my house & yards. Dr. Lewis is the one who clued me in on the Preventic collars. He said that he thought once I had the collars on all 3 dogs, & those nasty little buggers found out they had no "free meal" at my house, they would go away. He was ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!! I think it was no more than about 10 days, & I couldn't find one of them. When it comes to the safety of the collar for a Cushbaby, I don't think that will be an issue as Barkley was chemo meds for his lymphoma, so if it was ok for him, but check with your vet. Oh, I had to purchase the collars through my GP.

Debbie

Thanks, Debbie! :)

I will check with Dr C and see if those collars can be used with the Comfortis.

Hi Leslie,

Good news on Squirt so far - I'm happy for you. Glad the out of the ordinary accidents were caused by a UTI and hope her UTK panel numbers will be good also.

Regarding the ALT, Munch has always been in the normal range and then out of the blue had his go up a couple of times. However, it did drop back down to normal again. With Munch, meds, certain supplements and/or illness seem to tinker w/his liver! My IMS wasn't concerned either and we just continue to keep an eye on everything.

Will be waiting, with interest, to see the remainder of Squirts results.

Hugs,
Louise

Hi Leslie,
That is good news on Squirt and I hope all the other results are as good!!
I hate ticks with a passion, almost as bad as I hate diabetes,
Jo-Ann & Lady :)

Hi Leslie,

GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D:):D:) Hoping the rest of the results are just as good. Hugs to you and the gang.

Luv,
Lynne and Angel Lady 7/98-3/09

Hi Leslie,

Hope the amocy does it for the uti.

Very good news on the bloodwork. We administer Advantage which controls ticks, fleas and heartworm. I am told it is not the best control for fleas but we don't have a big flea problem.

Scott

Hey Leslie (the twitcher)
Glad the Little Squirt's results are good so far. Hope the good news continues to flow.:D

Hey Leslie...

I am SOOOOOO happy for you and Squirt!!!! Great numbers and let's just keep it all crossed for the panel! I have a beak crossed right now as you know so I'll send you my margarita so you can toast Squirt for me!

Love ya! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

Hi ya'll,

Just got a call from the IMS and the UTK panel results came in last nite. I will pick up copies this afternoon and post them for you then (along with the first UTK results for comparison), but here's what Dr S told me -

* cortisol pre was high, but the post is normal (121 ng/m. with a normal up to 174 ng/ml) (YAHOOOOOO!!!!!)
* estradiol is still high but not as high as in Dec
* both progesterones still high but down from Dec, too
* everything else is normal

Dr O's recommendations are to continue the melatonin but switch to the hulls, 1/2 tsp/day...naturally since I have a yrs worth of purified lignans! :rolleyes::p Also, starting a maintenance dose of Lyso of 1/4 tab, 2x/week as a consideration (I assume that would be 250mg/week). The plan is to try the hulls for a month, have a recheck, and if the numbers aren't down, we will start the Lyso then. BUT, Dr O said no loading for her! YEAH!

As I am writing this, I am having second thoughts. ~~twitch twitch~~ Squirt was diagnosed in 8/08 with Atypical and the treatments she has been on (melatonin and lignans) have helped some but not as much as they could have. She has this urinary infection and since the stim last Wed., I have seen more signs - panting more, seeking cool tiles to lay on, sleeping more, asking to eat earlier and more often (but that is not a reliable sign for her :p ). However, water intake is down and need to urinate has not increased and no more accidents. She continues to lose her long hairs but not symmetrically, and still no bald spots or loss of the other two coats. Her back legs are stiffer but not weak or trembling. Still no pot belly. Glucose and thyroid levels are normal. Liver values slightly higher (ALKP - 260, ALT - 129) but not alarmingly so. I approved of the idea of trying the hulls first but now I am not sure. What do ya'll think? ~~ twitch twitch~~

Hugs,
Leslie and Squirt

would the hulls actually have more lignans than the purified stuff? that is hard to believe....is it that the lignans are primarily present in the hulls? I would think both are good but one would figure the purified is better...but I could be dead wrong

Leslie,

I would go with what Dr. O says....I would try one step at a time....and then if not, try the Lysodren. It is only one month....and I don't think it is unreasonable to try this first. If this works, you can save on the Lysodren....

that's my opinion...but I always would aim for a more natural approach if I could first....and you know I am not anti-Lysodren....just that I think this may be the better option if it works...

am I making sense? I am sooooo sleepy....

Love ya! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jrepac

would the hulls actually have more lignans than the purified stuff? that is hard to believe....is it that the lignans are primarily present in the hulls? I would think both are good but one would figure the purified is better...but I could be dead wrong

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Yes, lignans are found in the hulls. Purified lignans have about 40mg per capsule and the pressed flax hull has 35mg per gram. There are 3 grams per tsp so if my math is right, dogs under 30 pounds should be given 1/2 tsp which equals 52.5mg. I found the pressed flax hulls on Ebay and out of curiosity corresponded with the company. I explained that UTK recommends lignans for treatment of atypical and referred them to Dr. Jack Oliver at UTK. They sent me the product as a thank you and since I just ran out of Lulu's six month supply of purified lignans, she is now on the pressed flax hulls. Luckily this stuff has a two year shelf life. I spoke to the owner once I discovered that UTK revised their treatment option page to include their product and they were thrilled that Dr. Oliver actually tested the product and liked it. How cool is that?

Leslie, as I recall you reduced the recommended dose of melatonin because Squirt seemed lethargic right? This may have a bearing on why the numbers aren't lower. With the estradiol being high, I'd definitely go with the higher lignan content in the pressed flax hull product. I'm sure you know that if the estradiol isn't restricted to the adrenals, Lysodren wouldn't really help anyway, so I'd give the additional lignans a chance to work for a month or two. If you are still seeing overt symptoms after that time, then you may want to consider the Lysodren maintenance dose.

I hope this helps.

Glynda

Hi Leslie,

I haven't been on in a while and just saw your post. I'm very glad to hear Squirt is continuing to do well :)

My baby Sausage-Elizabeth was spayed a few days ago, so I've been busy caring for her. She is so miserable with the horrible e-collar she's forced to wear for another 10 days :(

Deanna & forever Hotty

Hi ya'll,

Well, after sitting up most of the nite twitching and watching my Sweet Bebe sleeping peacefully, I decided to stick with the original plan of trying the hulls first. Since we aren't dealing with cortisol, I just can't justify necrosis of the adrenals right now. I have ordered the hulls and will start them as soon as they arrive. Beth and Glynda, thanks so much for the input! :)

Jeff, I had wondered the same thing about the hulls VS the purified capsules. Not knowing the answer, I got the bottle and looked at the ingredients once again. It contains magnesium stearate from "vegetable source", and the cap itself "consists of gelatin." So, the capsules are more than just lignans; nothing that should cause harm or, I guess, interfere with the action of the lignans since Dr O approved this form VS the FSO. The pressed hulls, however, are pure according to the site:

http://www.flaxhulls.com/lignan.htm

"This product does not have anything else added to it. The hull of the flaxseed is removed by a mechanical process, then the oil is pressed out of the hulls with a standard low temperature press. (pressed flax hulls)"

So, I decided this may be why Dr O suggested this switch. After reading Glynda's excellent, informative post I understand more fully the recommendation. Squirt will be getting 12.5mg more of the lignans per day with the hulls VS the purified form.

Glynda, you are such a wonder! To do this research then contact the Carlson's on behalf of our Atypical babies, put them in contact with Dr O...well, it just shows how devoted you are to learning and helping all you can. Thank you for sharing what you have learned about the hulls!

Yes, I had cut Squirt's melatonin by 1/4. She was getting 1 1/2mg in the mornings and 3mg at nite. That was a little over a month ago. After the peeing incident, before we knew about the infection, I put her back on the full dose of 6mg/day VS 4 1/2mg/day. I heard your voice telling me how sad it would be to lose the ground we had gained and kicked myself in the butt! :mad: Sleeping a lot isn't nearly as harmful as these hormones!

Deanna! How wonderful to hear from you! We has Crys spayed a few months ago and she was back on her feet driving us all nuts the very next day! I had to keep her sedated to calm her down even a tiny bit so she wouldn't tear her stitches. By day three, I needed sedation! :p I hope Sausage-Elisabeth recovers quickly and easily soon and you can turn your twitcher down a notch! :p How is Debbie doing these days? And YOU? I sure do miss my Sister Twitcher here! :D

Hugs,
Leslie and Squirt

Now, I have a question for all of you...if I ever knew this info, it has fallen through one of the many cracks in my feeble mind. :o

Which one is supposed to work on the estradiol produced outside the adrenals - melatonin or lignans, or both? and how?

:o:confused::o Leslie :o:confused::o

Hi Leslie,

It is my understanding the melatonin and lignans work in concert to reduce estradiol.

Good news on the report, at least all the numbers are moving in the right direction.

I agree with the others that I would hold out the addition of maint Lysodren as a final treatment option if this change in type of lignans and dose do not work. I have been seeing that freshness is a big issue withe the lignans and wonder if the pressed hull is more vital than the purified lignans. I wonder if the pressed hull has a freshness date how it is packaged and just how you are to store it.

Scott

Thanks, Scott!

Yeah, I am happy to see the numbers moving in the right direction and I may well have played a part in them not being as good as they could by decreasing the melatonin dose. Geez, with all that could go wrong and I worried about her sleeping too much...she's an old lady like her mom. :rolleyes: We have so much to be grateful for...I have to remind myself of that more often! ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and Squirt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Squirt's Mom

Now, I have a question for all of you...if I ever knew this info, it has fallen through one of the many cracks in my feeble mind. :o

Which one is supposed to work on the estradiol produced outside the adrenals - melatonin or lignans, or both? and how?

:o:confused::o Leslie :o:confused::o

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Geeze, Les, you might as well ask why the earth is round. :D You cannot believe how many times I've read the UTK info on this and how many times I've accessed the dictionary to try to understand all the big words. One big word begat another big word and so on and so on until my eyes roll back into my head and I start cussing. There is no way that I could ever explain the actual process by which those six adrenal hormones magically appear but I'll try to give you a quick and dirty that I hope you can understand. So here goes nothing.

Aromatase is an enzyme that is involved in the production of estrogen. It acts by catalyses (big word – look it up) the conversion of testosterone to estradiol, which is an estrogen by the way. Aromatase enzyme is located in the estrogen producing cells in the adrenal glands, ovaries, placenta, testicles, fat tissue and the brain. Note to self: Lysodren only targets the adrenals so it has no effect if the estradiol is being produced in the latter five areas of the body. Melatonin, a naturally occurring hormone in the body that we cushdog parents buy in a bottle, is an aromatase inhibitor. UTK always recommends Melatonin and phytoestrogen treatment when estradiol is elevated. [Phytoestrogens, sometimes called "dietary estrogens", are a diverse group of naturally occurring non steroidal plant compounds that, because of their structural similarity with estradiol (17-β-estradiol), have the ability to cause estrogenic or/and antiestrogenic effects] Lignans, found in the flaxseed, has the highest concentration of phytoestrogen found in plants. Lignans is also an aromatase inhibitor and with its phytoestrogenic activity, competes with estradiol for tissue estrogen receptors. So the quick answer to your question is if estradiol is elevated, UTK recommends both Melatonin and Lignans

21 hydroxylase is an enzyme which is involved in the biosythesis of aldosterone and cortisol. Melatonin inhibits the 21 hydroxylase enzyme.

3-beta-HSD is an enzyme which catalyses the synthesis of progesterone from pregnenolone, 17-hydroxyprogesterone from 17-hydroxypregnenolone, and androstenedione from dehydropiandrosterone in the adrenal gland. Note: the synthesis of all six adrenal steroids requires 3beta HSD. Melatonin and lignans inhibit 3-beta-HSD

So there ya go.

Glynda

Leslie -

If I'm following the last few posts correctly this morning I'm thinking that you and I are kind of in the same place with our babies. You're trying the flax hulls now and still using the melatonin with the possibility of adding a maintenance dose of Lysodren for Squirt, right?
You're holding off on the maintenance of Lysodren though until you can see what the flax hulls can do - your "twitch" intuition. :D This is kind of my story with Crash. His last visit to the vet showed his enzyme numbers coming down - still high, but down. I took this as a good sign, but when I asked a few questions including the switch to flax hulls Crash's doctor decided to email Dr. Oliver for some clarification. The vet and said that Dr. Oliver definitely recommends the flax hulls and mentioned a melatonin implant and the maintenance dose of Lysodren. My gut, like your twitch, I just don't want to go there yet. So our flax hulls came last Thursday and unless something drastic happens our doctor agreed to see what the flax hulls in addition to the continued dose of 6 mg of melatonin am and pm could do for a month or two before making any other decisions. So I think your twitch reinforces my gut because I was so worried about making the wrong decision. Sound familiar? I'm a worrier. :o

By the way, I agree with the yes and a defininite yea to Glynda for the flaxhull.com connection! They are wonderful people to talk to if you ever have questions for them about their product, don't hesitate.

Oh too, Glynda despite a few big words I think I followed your explanation to Leslie's question and thanks for clarifying for me too!
Can you explain the melatonin implant also? The mere sound of "implant" stressed me out.

Happy thoughts to all....and stay cool! :) It's a hazy and hot first day of summer kind of morning in the St. Louis area. :(

Tammy, Crash, & Darby

Wow Glynda,
It's going to take me days to figure out what this all means. BTW, why IS the earth round?:D

Leslie, so glad that Squirt's numbers are looking good and more importantly that she is feeling good.:)


PS: I just looked it up and the earth is round because of gravity. Wish cush questions and answers were that easy.

Hi Leslie,

I too am glad Squirts numbers are coming down and I believe her Mom deserves a "High Five," for doing such a great job and should please, please stop being so hard on herself :) We love you Leslie, especially your Twitcher.

Here's hoping the pressed hulls will bring them numbers down even lower.

Lori

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedic....com/catalyses

"catalysis /ca·tal·y·sis/ (kah-tal´ĭ-sis) increase in the velocity of a chemical reaction or process produced by the presence of a substance that is not consumed in the net chemical reaction or process; negative c. denotes the slowing down or inhibition of a reaction or process by the presence of such a substance.catalyt´ic" Catalyses = multiple reactions.

:D:D:D

Your explanation is wonderful, Glynda! I even understand the big words...for the most part. ;) From my nutrition studies I know that beta bonds require B, or beta, enzymes for synthesis, and alpha bonds require A-enzymes. So it makes sense if estradiol is a beta bond (17-β-estradiol) an excess of the 3-beta-HSD enzyme would cause increased synthesis and higher levels.

Since this enzyme causes synthesis of the other hormones as well, that explains why we usually see more than just the estradiol elevated, right? And if a pup had only aldosterone elevated, the phytoestrogen (lignans) would not be needed. Am I on the right track here?

Thanks a bunch!
Hugs,
Leslie

PS. I'm so glad John asked why the earth IS round!! LOL

Tamarah - Yes, you are on the mark with my twitching and it sounds like I have another sister twitcher. :p

Squirt has been on the purified lignans and the melatonin in capsule forms starting in late summer of '08. Since her estradiol and the two progesterones have not come down as we would like, Dr O wants to put her on the hulls. Since Glynda explained the higher content of lignans, that makes sense as a higher dose should have a stronger effect.

I, personally, won't use the implant for Squirt for several reasons. Like Scott said, it is too hard to know when the implant life runs out, resulting in possible erratic dosing. Nor do I like the idea of her having that huge needle stuck in her even once, much less over and over to replace the implant when it loses its effectiveness. So I will stick with the capsules so I know exactly what dose she gets and NO needles. But these are just my feelings. I know several folks who use the implant with no problems and are happy with it VS having to give meds twice a day.

Heat indexes here have been running in the 110's so I know what you mean about the water consumption! :eek: All of mine have been guzzling like mad! :p Crys is the only one who seems to like this weather. She wants to stay out in it but I don't let her for very long.

John - thanks for the kinds words and for finding out just why the earth is round. :D

Lori - you're a doll and I really appreciate the support! You do know we love you, too?

Hugs,
Leslie and Squirt

sorry to be late in posting. Congrats on bringing the numbers down. Yay Squirt!!!!

Just FYI on the implant -- Pallie's had 3. She was due to get her next one actually this week, but it's on hold for the time being.
My vet says that Dr. Oliver swears by them and that the melatonin gets absorbed so much better than capsules. They last about 4-6 months and I've replaced Pallie's after 5 since they take about 6 weeks to really kick into high gear. My vet checked with Dr. O once about the dosing and overlap and Dr. O wasn't concerned as long as it was within the time the implant was on its way out.

But I say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. :-)
Yay Squirt!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roxee's Dad

Wow Glynda,
It's going to take me days to figure out what this all means. BTW, why IS the earth round?:D

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Actually, the earth should only be referred to as round in the contraint of two dimensions.;) So your search should also have explained that the earth is a sphere, :) I sometimes am referred to as round!:D

Thanks Glynda, I knew you had that bit stored away somewhere.

Scott

Hi Sister Twitcher!

It's wonderful for Squirt to be responding so well :D

And did I not say Glynda was "The Oracle"? ;)

Best wishes,

Brother Twitcher and Angelina.

Hi ya'll,

Squirt's hull came in today so she will start on them in the morning since she had the purified form this morning.

I took her to have her nails trimmed this afternoon and the girls were shocked that she is 11! They said she looked and acted much younger. :D Of course, she gets full of it when anyone works on her feet...she will show you how quick she can get away! :p

Hugs,
Leslie and Squirt

PS. Hey Brother Twitcher...you are so right - Glynda is an oracle...and a real sweet heart to boot!