Jasper (12 yr old Mini Schnauzer) is now at peace

Tina, Once again Jasper has me scratching my head. Just like before when he went so low .. he wasn't eating and was lethargic which are clearly signs of low cortisol yet he's drinking and peeing alot? That isn't typical of a dog with low cortisol. If Jasper were loaded you wouldn't be seeing that still. So this is making me wonder if something else is causing the drinking and peeing.

But before I go there... please define drinking and peeing alot. Are you measuring water intake? If not, please do. A normal dog drinks an ounce of water per pound of dog. (for reference) Mark a bowl so you can easily each day fill it to that point and at the end of the day measure the difference. If you have the dogs separate is easier but I did it with my two as the other dog drank normal amounts I could tell what the 'net' intake was of my cush dog.

How frequently does Jasper go out?

I know you ruled out diabetes and think you did hypothyroidism as well.

I have to go outside and mow right now but later today I am going to re-read your entire thread to see if I am missing something. Maybe someone else w/lysodren experience will do the same. Keep a journal of everything along with dates... it comes in handy. KIm

Hi Kim,

I have been cleaning my carpet all afternoon and just checked and saw your post. When my vet called on Friday with the results of the stim test being so low, I asked her about Jasper drinking more and having the accident in the house the night that he got the prednisone (8/29), and why would he be having those symptoms with his cortisol being so incredibly low. She said he was having side effects from the prednisone, and made it sound like that is still possible even though his cortisol level was so low, and that is what was happening. She said he is sensitive to the prednisone also.

As far as his increased drinking and peeing, I have not been measuring his water intake as both dogs drink out of the same bowls. I didn't think to subtract what Shelby should drink in a day (~13 ounces), to get Jasper's net intake. You are so smart! I have been monitoring how often he goes to the bowl and about how long he drinks each time, and it has significantly increased. This morning he was drinking about every 20 min or so, and for about 10-15 seconds each time, sometimes longer. I do know that today, I think he had drank about 24 ounces by noon or so, just by what I know I put in his bowl, and Shelby was confined for a lot of that time so couldn't get to the bowl. He weighs about 25 lbs.

Shortly after noon I decided to get out a bigger bowl and make more of an effort to measure. I put 48 oz in the bowl and marked it like you said so I can fill it easier. I will measure what is left before we go to bed and add to what I think he drank this morning.

As far as how often he needs to go out, well today since I am home he has been going outside about every 2 hours or so, and sometimes more frequently than that. And he pees a large amount for a long time each time, at least 20 seconds or more each time.

He will get another dose of prednisone tonight, and I am worried about when I go to work tomorrow. He will not have access to water or to go outside constantly. He typically can hold it all day while I am at work, that has never been a problem. But he typically doesn't have access to water either.

Yes, diabetes and thyroid issues have been ruled out, as well as liver and kidney issues.

Thank you Kim for taking the time to re-read my thread, and for your insight and advice. I have been keeping track of things and dates, labs, behaviors, etc. It is kind of disorganized, and I had planned to work on getting it all into a notebook/journal this weekend but got sidetracked with everything that happened.

I am going to see if I can get him to eat supper now and will check back in a bit.

Hugs,

Tina and Jasper

Jasper's reaction to lysodren has me stumped. He went as low as 0.5 in 5 days of loading at what is a normal dosage. You stopped and it shot up to 6.74 in a short amount of time.

Then you did MAINTENANCE at 500 mg level and went to from 6.74 to 0 in 4 weeks. This is a bizarre swing for a dog on maintenance.

You started maintenance on 7/27 and on 8/15 you said the drinking had increased and you were concerned. 10 days later he isn't eating so you give him prednisone and he's at 0 on the acth.

There are too many swings going on that just don't add up. That's why I asked about the other diseases wondering if something else is causing the urination. The only remaining disease that I can think of is diabetes insipidus.

I am pretty sure they only make lysodren in 500 mg tablets so it can't be a dosing error. Either Jasper is extremely sensitive to lysodren or something else is going on.

Regarding the prednisone... I'm shocked that with practically ZERO cortisol in the system Jasper reacts so quickly to it. That would explain the urination but again... logically it shouldn't happen so quickly. And if he is peeing I would think the hunger would be back as well as the energy level.

I hope another experienced member can see this and come up with what might be going on.

In the meantime... cleaning the carpet...:( I so remember that. If he's confined you might see if these will help. I bought them for Annie and she did urinate on them (vs carpet) and these pads suck it all up and you don't smell it! You wash them and reuse them. Google: pooch pads. I bought mine from Amazon but I think Petco has them.

Sorry if I confused you more... just know this is not usual. More hugs, Kim

Tina, I hate to make things more difficult for you, but I am afraid it may not be safe to restrict Jasper's water tomorrow while you are at work. I think to do so may risk harm to his kidneys (I will try to come back with a better explanation later). Is there any room or area of your house where you can leave him with plenty of water, and where peeing would not do a great deal of damage? :o

Marianne

OMG Marianne, great catch. Tina, she's right. As much as the urination is a PITA - Jasper is drinking because he is dehydrated from urinating - not peeing from water intake. He has to have access to that water.

Kim

Thanks Kim and Marianne,

Yes, I am gathering that Jasper is not a usual case. My vet said that she has never had a dog where the cortisol bottomed out as low as Jasper's while on maintenance. She has said that he is showing to be extremely sensitive to the Lysodren, and still seems confident that we will get him stabilized, but on a MUCH lower maintenance dose. This conversation took place on Friday after we got the stim test results that the cortisol was soooo low. I will have to see what she thinks now that he ended up in the hospital and everything that happened Saturday.

Marianne, thank you for your advice about not restricting his water while I am at work tomorrow, I was wondering and worrying about that, and meant to ask it in my last post. You read my mind. I really don't have anywhere I could leave him unless I closed him in the bathroom that doesn't have carpet, or tried to barricade him in the kitchen. He normally stays in a wire crate when I am not home. He prefers this and tends to get anxious if he has the run of the house or if the routine changes. He is comfortable there, and automatically goes there when he knows it is almost time for me to leave for work. Do you think it would be ok to just put a water bowl in the crate with him? The only thing I don't like about that is if he pees, then it will be wet. He normally lays on a couple of thick soft folded up towels in the crate, he has never liked those sheepskin foam crate pads. At least that would be somewhat absorbent.

You know, I haven't done anything different with the water up until now, I hope I haven't hurt him! Omg. :(

And as far as cleaning the carpet, it was from all the vomiting on Saturday morning. :( He really has had only 2 accidents in the house, the one in May which prompted all the tests, and then last wednesday night after the prednisone.

Please let me know what you think about the water bowl in the crate, I think that may be my best option since he is most comfortable in there. He did eat his supper tonight with considerable coaxing, and had his prednisone tonight. He seems a little more perky, but still not back to normal.

Love and hugs,

Tina and Jasper

If there is room in the crate for the bowl then give it a try.

Fingers crossed - if it doesn't work then try the bathroom or kitchen. Good luck!

Tina, yes, I think the water bowl in the crate sounds like the best option, too. Hopefully this will just be a very temporary issue. Is there any way you might be able to check on him at lunchtime (to let him out or replace the towels), or is that just not an option? I totally understand if it is not, because I have always had really long commutes myself. :(

Marianne

Yes, there is room in the crate. It will make it a little more crowded of course, but he still has room to stretch out and lay down. Hopefully he won't spill it. My Lab would always spill the water in her crate. :rolleyes:

It is possible for me to take a long lunch and run home on a temporary basis, however it is not ideal. I was already considering it for tomorrow at least and maybe for a while until he is feeling better and we have things more under control. I will just need to talk to my manager about it and hopefully it won't be a big deal.

Kim, thanks for the tip on the pooch pads, I am checking them out now on Amazon. There are lots of good reviews. I think I have seen something like this at Petsmart or Petco.

Tina

What about putting the crate in the kitchen, leaving the door open so he can go in and out, and putting a couple bowls of water in the kitchen for him, with some pee pads, just in case. Try to barricade the kitchen off is possible. Otherwise, something similar in the bathroom if it is big enough?
The crate would be available for him to feel comfortable in, but being open if he wanted a drink he could get it and not risk becoming dehydrated, still have some other area than where he sleeps to pee, just in case. At this point, he is a tricky case.

Hugs,
Sharlene