Introducing Fraser - our sweet Fraser has crossed The Bridge

Ok, I'm ringing the vet for a quick check first, then I'm heading to the shop to go hunt for Jarrow! Apparently it is available here, but whether I can get it is another thing. If not I'll get it online. For the next week while I'm still on holidays, I'll split the dose over 3 x a day with 1.5 150mg caps (making 225mg approx), but then when I head back to work next week, it's only going to be 2x a day - simply not home and it's a 45 minute round trip to and from work - but lunch break is only 25 minutes. Not possible. So then he'll end up on 150mg daily in two doses. A bit lower than advised, but seeing how susceptible he is to everything at the moment, I don't want to make him sick with an upset tummy too. :(

I've also read that it is good to give it a break, to give 5 days out of every 7, and then 5 weeks of every 6. Anybody else come across that one at all? And how long term is it? Do I consider this to be part of his feeding ritual from now on, or just see how his bloods go in a few months? Again, I've read conflicting advice.

One last question. If Oscar happens to get some too, it won't affect him negatively will it? I was reading some live support thing - but I cant remember what it was - that said it should not be given to dogs unnecessarily as it could potentially harm a healthy liver. Don't want that!

Once again, a HUGE thankyou to you guys for your help and advice. So unbelievably helpful!

PS Addy: No fear :D, I didn't think anything of the sort that his liver readings were this high because he was a Scotty mix, they are this high cause his liver has been bombarded with everything going on. No the Vet just mentioned it in passing, but I already understood that in a normal healthy dog, a Scotty could tend to have slightly higher readings than normal, not off the charts readings like his. Interesting about the maltese though, didn't know that one. :p

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Originally Posted by SoggyDoggy

I've also read that it is good to give it a break, to give 5 days out of every 7, and then 5 weeks of every 6. Anybody else come across that one at all? And how long term is it? Do I consider this to be part of his feeding ritual from now on, or just see how his bloods go in a few months? Again, I've read conflicting advice.

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Yes, I have read where one does want to give a break in between.

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Originally Posted by SoggyDoggy

One last question. If Oscar happens to get some too, it won't affect him negatively will it? I was reading some live support thing - but I cant remember what it was - that said it should not be given to dogs unnecessarily as it could potentially harm a healthy liver. Don't want that!

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I believe as long as Oscar does not get the milk thistle on a regular basis he should be fine.

Oh wow, this is doing my head in! I went to 5 different pharmacies or health food shops today to get some milk thistle for Frazy, no ones ever heard of Jarrow, but looking further, all the ones I saw today are at least 420mg caps, which would mean trying to give 1/4 or less of a cap :confused: per dose. The other issue is, they also have a stack of other stuff mixed in, and I can't find anything that's plain milk thistle without artichoke or dandelion root etc.

My options are- give up and go for the denosyl at $70+ per month, (which at the moment is tempting!) import the jarrow range from the states and pay 3-4 times more for postage to get it here within 2-3 weeks ( which will end up costing over $50 anyway) or keep looking and hope I eventually find something :confused::confused:.

Have a call in to the vet, but neither of the two I will deal with are on until Friday or Monday (and Monday is Australia Day public holiday) so wont get any answers from them till at least then, but then I only left a message confirming i want him to take it and to make sure they think 200mg daily is correct. (Not second guessing you guys, just want the vet to be in the loop).

Also looked into "hepato support" not available here so would have to go through ingredient list and compare. My biggest problem is I don't now what all the various herbs and vitamins do, and I don't want to give him anything that will impact something else. There is very little information around about these herbs and canine efficacy!

Suggestions? :o:confused::confused::o

What about buying it on-line? I buy many canine supplements from Monica Segal's website, Monica is located in Canada, here is her link for the milk thistle: http://www.monicasegal.com/Milk_Thistle_Powder.html

Hi,

I managed to find plain milk thistle at the local woolworths and coles. It can also be brought online, I used chemistwarehouse.com.au but most of the other sites should have something. Not sure how good this one is but it is available at the supermarkets here at around $12 a bottle for 90 capsules.

http://www.herron.com.au/Products/Ge...k-Thistle-6000

I also read and used the following as a guide.

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/health/thistle.htm

Good luck

Jen

Thanks for those tips, Looked at the Monica Segal, but again its a 2-4 week wait and postage costs twice as much as the supplement, while I'm not quibbling on price, it just seems stupid. Thanks for the heads up on the Herron one though Jen, going to Coles to pick some up shortly. At least with that I don't even have to split capsules, just one 2x a day! Something to be said finally for cheap supermarket brands!

On a side note though, I did find a place called VitaminGrocer (online) who had a great postal service, where to get it in 3-10 days was only about $12. So if the Herron one doesn't have desired results, I may try the Jarrow one through them.

Thanks again for the advice!

Ok, one last check before I'll shut up about this :D

Once again, couldn't find the herron brand, nothing available in capsules where ever I went, so I gave up and bought a practitioner strength silymarin tablet. It was an australian product by MediHerb. Below is some information I found regarding it online from a US research place, http://www.salamresearch.com/html/mi...e_product.html

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Milk Thistle Extracts

Silymarin is typically extracted with 95 percent ethyl alcohol. The extraction process may also include filtration (with water), evaporation and may also include pressing and heat drying.

There is often poor documentation of the source, ingredients and extraction process of commercial silymarin products. A few companies state that they use purified water and ethanol extraction without harmful solvents. Some companies carefully examine sources of raw milk thistle and use chromatography to optimize quality and to separate the phytochemicals in the extract into individual components. Some product is manufactured according to good manufacturing practice (GMP) standards.

Various amounts of raw herb are used in extracts. One Australian company uses a 70:1 extract. They begin with 14.7 grams of milk thistle herb and create a tablet of 210 mg. Other companies use 30:1 or 40:1 extracts.

German research initially led to a standardized milk thistle extract of 70 percent silymarin. Current standardized silymarin extracts contains 70 to 80 percent silymarin. Standardized or quantified extracts of milk thistle are often expressed as “standardized to 80 percent silymarin” or “calculated as silybin.”

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Jarrow is 30:1, the Medi Herb one I bought is the 70:1. What this means? I have no idea!

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Other preparations

Because silymarin is poorly soluble in water, teas are considered to have a less than 10 percent bioavailability. Oral tinctures, or alcohol-extracted preparations, are considered suboptimal, and effective oral therapy is assumed to require concentrated products. It has been reported that the absorption of silymarin in enhanced by adding lecithin.

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Milk Thistle Preparations and Doses

The most common oral formulation is capsules containing powdered seed extract. Other concentrated oral formulations include tablets and softgel capsules.

Dosages for milk thistle are based on silymarin content

Most milk thistle marketed in the United States is sold as a dietary supplement containing 200 milligrams of a concentrated extract standardized to 80 percent silymarin. Taking silybin is considered to be the optimal way of obtaining the benefits of silymarin, so one may want to consider an extract that contains 80 percent silybin.

Researchers have not yet identified the optimal dose of silymarin

The typical adult dosage for silymarin is 240 to 800 mg/day in two or three divided doses. It's noted that a supplement containing at least 240 mg per day of silymarin would be helpful for most people. Doses of 150 to 300 mg per day are considered sufficient to increase the liver's production of the protective antioxidant glutathione. Higher doses are needed for chronic liver disease: 140 to 210 mg of silymarin, three times daily in a standardized extract form (total 420 to 630 mg/day). Simultaneous dosing with a lecithin supplement has been recommended to increase absorption. For Siliphos, 240 mg, three times daily is recommended. Older patients require a higher dose due to age related decrease in absorption abilities.

Reviewing the doses that were used in milk thistle human research, the dose varied from 240 to 800 milligrams per day. A few studies used Siliphos at 240 mg.

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So the article also provides a table at the bottom with selected brands analysed. The MeidHerb brand is listed, and broken down as a 210mg tablet, containing 168mg of silybin. (the others listed are as silmarin). So I'm back at trying to work out a correct dose. AGAIN! The articles read so far suggest 20% of a human dose (for his weight) and this bottle suggests 1 tab 2-3 times daily, as it is of high potency and high bioavailability.

From Lowchenaustralia.com

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When shopping for milk thistle, I prefer a standardized (70 or 80% silybin) product. A typical adult human dose is 100 - 150 mg. of silybin, which is approximately 200 mg. dry herb three times daily, or the equivalent in a liquid. For pets, simply use their body weight as a percentage of the human dose. For example, a 30-pound dog would get 30% of a human dose and a 10-pound cat would get 10%. Most products purchased at health food stores have the recommended human dose on the label. Give it for 2-3 months. Medicinal herbs should not be used continuously for extended periods. I suggest 5 days on then 2 days off for 6 weeks. Skip 1 week and begin again. It could be used one week each month as a little extra protection in otherwise healthy pets.

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Originally Posted by Harley PoMMom

Because of its excellent safety record and lack of adverse drug interactions, when I’m treating a very sick animal with advanced liver disease, I do not hesitate to use the full human dose–up to 200 mg per 10 pounds of body weight–of milk thistle extract daily. For most purposes, however, one-third to one-half of that dose is more than adequate. (Animals with liver disease typically will not eat, but it’s a simple matter to open up a capsule, mix the appropriate amount of powdered herb with a little blenderized food or baby food, and feed by syringe.) Too high a dose can cause an upset tummy, gas, or mild diarrhea; these are easily resolved by giving less.

Human research studies have shown that it is more effective to administer this herb in three or four small portions over the day than in one large daily dose. When it is not possible to split the daily dose and administer the fractional portions three or four times a day, give it at least twice a day.

So, my calculation for Fraser's weight of about 22 lbs would be 200mg split and given 3-4 times a day.

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Now the maths begins. By using the above calculations, if I give 1/3 of the recommended dose of the Mediherb, per 10lbs of bodyweight, I would be giving 110 - 140mg of the concentrated Silybin per day. (the tabs are 210mg Milk Thistle/Silymarin, with 168mg Silybin. I'm using the 168 as the calculation figure.)

But if I go 20% (he weighs about 22lbs, 9.9kg), then I want about 70-100mg per day (both of these ranges 1/3 or 20% depend on the 2-3 tablets per day)

If I then split the tablets into 1/4's, I have 42mg silybin/quarter, so would be looking at 1/2 to 3/4 (84-126mg) per day.

Have I got this correct? Would I be safe giving Fraser 3/4 tablet for a week in 3 doses per day (1/4 per dose = 126mg total) then going to 1/2 per day in two doses (84mg total)? As of thursday next week I am back at work so 3x a day is not possible. Or would I simply be better off with 1/2 per day in two doses flat?

Sorry to be a pest on this, I just am really scared of putting his system through more when he is pretty happy at the moment. However his liver does need the help as it has been pretty battered.

Feedback welcome. I should also state that I have given him 1/4 tablet so far this morning with breakfast and morning trilo (about 3 hours ago).

Good lord Naomi, you are the research queen!! I am not even going to attempt your maths quiz as it brought back horrible memories of math class at school just reading it :eek::eek: but I am sure someone will be using those that can confirm your calculations!! I love your no stone unturned approach!
Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

You lost me at the second paragraph, I cant think with that side of my brain especially at 4am:D:D:D:D:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Im betting Lori or Leslie can figure it out for you. They will be awake soon;););)

Lol, it's only because I've been on holidays for the last 5 weeks that I even have time to look at this! As of next week, spare time is going to shrink considerably! And as for the maths, well they say Music and Maths are closely related, and I am a Music teacher, so there we go! :D:D:D

Anyway, just want confirmation from someone to look at my numbers if they can get their head around the marathon of quotes. I did speak to the vet briefly on the phone today and she said it sounded right, but also agreed without looking at things on paper, it's pretty hard with all of the different brands, strengths and doses.

So anyone who is NOT trying to decipher that wall of text in the unearthly hours of the morning (Addy, try sleeping!), feedback still welcome. He's since had a second 1/4 tablet with dinner, haven't gone 3 today just to see how he reacts, will try the three doses tomorrow all going well.

PS: Some of the quoted text was just for information sake as well, it's not ALL 100% specific to this question.