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Hi, Laurie -- just when things seem to to be staying consistent, you and Charlotte get hit by something else. I would think that, if a biopsy is not affordable, then a skin scraping might give you some answers, at least with regard to what the condition will respond. Hang in there!
Looks like cc to me too. Biopsy will tell you for sure, a scraping might be able to tell you also. :( Keeping it dry and the hair around it cut back helps, but yes, the dry makes it itch but if it is too moist then it can get bacterial infection. It's never easy with cc for sure.
Thanks Marianne, Carole, Judy and Sharlene for your comments on my latest post about cc. I agree completely with what you said Marianne and i think our vet just isnt very experienced with this condition. I read the post you quoted and feel fortunate (and i should probably knock on wood while stating this) that her lesions have never ozzed or opened up except for when she scratched them and made them bleed. But they are definitely slowly spredding and im afraid of never being able to get the cortisol levels under control since we are worried sick about going back on the trilostane.
I sooooo agree with you Carole, this cushings is the gift (NOT) that keeps on giving. Just when we think we have one thing under control something new pops up!
Im not sure if a scraping or even a biopsy is going to help much since there isnt much we can do if its cc other than continue to try to wean her off of the pred and hope that the chinese herbs will help keep her cortisole level down. Her local vet says he has had success with herbs for treating cushings, but he is willing to use drug therapy too so hes not one of those woo woo crazy holistic docs that only see things one way. Im all for a mix of holistic (eastern meds) and western meds. Me personally, i dont handle drugs well so i always look for alternative treatments when possible and recommend the same to my clients. For instance ive seen clients go through numerous prescriptions for minor skin infections only to find that lavender essential oil cleared it up in a matter of a couple of days.
Yesterday i started putting lavender EO mixed with Apricot kernal seed oil on her sores. Ill give it a few days and see how it looks. I will also be using my LED machine on her as it kills bacteria and stimulates collagen and elastin production and promotes healing. This all may be futile but it makes me feel like im at least trying!
Laurie
Hi Laurie,
I hope the lavender is soothing Charlotte's sores and I am most interested in whether the herbal treatments help to naturally lower the cortisol. You are such a great mama to her and I know she loves it. I too am likely to resist reintroducing Vetoryl for all of the same reasons. Take a look at Mojo's post (new) regarding another dog with a macro. I just wrote a diatribe that I will refrain from posting now as I may be in one of those seven stages of grief - anger! Best to you and Charlotte.
Thank you for your kind words Carole and i can totally identify with your seven stages of grief! I read Mojo's thread and its so frustrsting to hear about the trials and tribulations of this awful disease. At this time i cant say what the herbal blend is doing for her cortisol levels and unfortunately we cant even test them as long as she is on the pred. In some ways she is doing a lot better and in others she is not. Its terribly confusing. As ive said in prior posts, we have suspected a macrotumor for awhile now and after reading Mojo's thread it sounds all too familiar. However there is one thing that keeps confusing me and that is Charlotte's desire to have her head lower than her body. She seems most comfortable hanging her head a couple of inches or more below the level of her body when she rests and sleeps. That seems so backwards to me! If she has swelling and pressure in her head from a macro it seems like it would be more painful or bothersome to her to lower her head like that.
Alas, without further diagnostics we cant know what exactly we are dealing with so we just move forward doing the best we can with what we do know. We have increased the herbs and lowered the pred over the past week. She is doing a little better in my opinion. The only other things she is getting are Licks (supplement for itching) and slippery elm. Her skin seems to be about the same, no better no worse. But she doesnt seem as itchy and bothered by it as she was a week ago so im not sure if its the Licks or the oils that are helping, maybe both. Im so glad Skippy hasnt had to deal with cc, its terrible to have to manage that along with everything else! Right now my biggest frustration is her anorexia. Its exhasting trying to figure out, day to day, what she will eat. I know so many here on this forum are dealing with the same thing and that helps me a little, knowing im not alone. We just keep plugging along!
Laurie
After a week of feeling like we were seeing improvement, the last 24 hours have been hard for Charlotte. She is not eating much and is wandering around aimlessly, like she is confused. She is still responsive but is acting distant. And when she is laying down she acts like she cant use her back legs and will pull herself with her front legs. But yet when she gets up she walks fine, and easily got in and out of the car today when i took her for a short ride. Im going to raise her pred back up a little and see if that helps. Last time we got the steroids too low she would just crash, she was so lethargic she didnt want to move. This is totally the opposite but the only thing i can think of to do is play around with the pred and see if it helps. My heart is breaking.
***Update*** How quickly things change. 7pm tonight i gave her pred a little earlier than normal and she continued her pacing but at 8pm she finally ate about 1/4 pound of meatloaf. She also started running around the house while i was playing with my other dog, although she wasnt actually playing it was like she sort of wanted too. Then she ran outside when i opened the door and was bouncing as she ran. Then into the bedroom and jumped up onto the bed, which she was too weak to do earlier today. She wimpered a little, which always scares me, then jumped down and paced for another 10 minutes and then back up on the bed and within minutes was sound asleep and snoring. I really think this is anxiety but not sure whats causing it!
Laurie
What a roller coaster ride you and dear Charlotte are on, hopefully you will be able to find that sweet spot with the pred.
Hugs, Lori
Thanks Lori. Today she ate a little bit of meatloaf but only what i fed her by hand. She wont eat from her bowl. She has slept a lot and when she gets up she is moving very slow. So different from yesterday when she would hardly relax and was anxiously walking all over the place. She finally fell asleep in my arms after midnight last night and only woke me up once. Oh how i wish we could take this awful disease away from our babies!
Laurie
Have you tried raising her bowls, food and water? If she is hurting in her legs or back or neck then bending down to the bowls may be an issue that raising them might help. Just a thought.....
My Brick had hydrocephalus and it was very hard on him to put his head down to eat or drink so his bowls were raised up and that helped him a great deal.
Yes her bowls are raised. But since she hangs her head off of her bed and the couch i dont think thats what it is. She is just so finicky! She ate a few bites of meatloaf and potatoes from her bowl tonight finally.
My big question is...do i raise the steroids or lower them? She is tremoring more the last 2 days and pacing and acting agitated and jumpy. She is still on 12.5mg of pred and was doing well on that until yesterday. Is it not enough or too much? Ugh!
Laurie
Hi, I'm so sorry you and your "big boy" are having a hard time. Living with my boy is the same - one day he seems better and acting like his old stubborn self, and then by the afternoon, he has the long skeletal face, is rapid panting and having a hard time moving around. I've found chasing Cushings and that is what it is - a chase - is day by day. Hope you can find a comfort zone for you both.
Thank you and yes its so true, this is a day to day chase! This morning all Charlotte wanted was my peanut butter toast. She hasnt wanted to eat peanut butter in a long time. So frustrating and hard to know exactly what to do. Ive said so many times...i wish they could talk!Quote:
Originally Posted by rainiebo
Laurie
Im not sure its fair to keep Charlotte going like this. She seems so tired of fighting. Tremoring was worse yesterday and last night. We could increase the pred but then she just paces and gets so anxious. She has some good moments, we went for a walk yesterday and she seemed to enjoy it, but mostly its not a very good life for her. I can barely see to type right now, the tears are flowing. Im not sure whats the right thing to do...
Laurie
Hi Laurie - it is one of the most heart-wrenching decisions you might ever face. I'm not really one to ask about this - I am a try-it-till-it-works, don't-care-how-much-it -costs type doggie parent. This is not a put-down to you or bragging on me. I'm just letting you know what I have done. Bobo had a liver tumor removed in June. Bobo is on Vetoryl (Cushings), amantadine (neuropathic pain.) I give him a liver supplement and a kidney supplement. He is tested regularly to check his cortisol level and liver enzymes. He also gets an allergy shot as well. Needless to say, I'm having to go back to work part-time to afford all this care. Bobo's brother (Sparkey) developed hemangiosarcoma. I went into overdrive with him, tumor on spleen removed, home cooked meals, supplements, pain relievers, and everything I could find on the net to keep him alive. The vet told me he only had 3 months to live, but I was determined to beat that number. Well, Sparkey, lived three months, but they were a good three months until the day he finally collapsed, and I had to call a home vet to take him over the rainbow bridge. He had eaten one of his favorite meals (McDonalds hamburger), gone for a short walk, and rested during the night. The next morning, he collapsed and it was time. Your furbaby sounds really distressed and so do you. It is hard to know what to do - for me - I had to do everything possible. But you know your boy better than anyone - follow your instinct and if it is time - then let him go over the rainbow bridge. A lady at the pet store yesterday told me the deciding factor for her was - she asked herself the question - am I keeping him alive for me or am I keeping him alive for him. She did decide that the rainbow bridge was the way to go. Some of the other doggy parents might have been in your situation and I hope they contact you.
Thank you for your quick response Raina. Im so glad you are able to do what you feel is right for Bobo without having to be restricted by finances. I wish i could say the same. However, as much as i wish i could have afforded the CT scan or MRI for Charlotte im not sure it would have been money well spent because i dont think i would have chosen to put her through radiation if a macro tumor was found. Of course thats just my situation, not judging anyone who moves forward with surgeries or treatments to try and save their pups. But i dont think Charlotte would want to go through that.
I've had to make "the decision" a number of times in the past and for the most part ive felt that, if anything, i waited too long. This time i just dont know. I dont want her to suffer or to be miserable. I dont think there is much more we can be doing for her so we take it day to day, and each day i wonder if its right to keep her here with us. And the question of whether its for me or her...well honestly it would be easier for me to let her go. Im an emotional wreck every day, not to mention all the work that goes into caring for her. My life would ultimately be easier if she went over the bridge now. But honestly i dont know if thats what she wants. She has been such a fighter. But is she just hanging on for us? I wish i knew.
Laurie
Hi Laurie,
I'm sure you know that no one else can tell you when it's the right time to let them go. Some people are willing to do that, but it's not their place in my opinion. Charlotte is your dog, you see her every day, know what she's going through and how she's doing... as best as anyone can.
I've made that decision myself a time or two. I was going to share my experiences in detail ... suffice to say I know that letting them go when I did was the best thing FOR THEM at the time. I am pretty sure I waited too long, for some of them, too; neither my husband nor I were ready. With Visuddha, as much work as it was for me to care for him for the last year... and I'd do it all again. We did not want him to suffer. It was a quick decision, really, shocked a lot of people I think. But he was starting to suffer, and I knew if I didn't take him when I did, we'd end up at an ER with people he didn't know. I gave him all the dignity I could muster at the time.
My parents just had to let one of their dogs go on Monday. My dad wasn't ready to let her go until this past weekend; mom knew sooner. When I visited this past weekend, I knew too.
I guess what I'm trying to say is.... You'll know when it's right. You might second guess yourself later, but you'll know.
Hugs.
Shana
Hi Laurie, amen to all that Shana posted.
Raina
Thanks Shana and Raina, i know that i will know when the time is right. I guess im just frustrated since we dont know for sure what we are dealing with. Although we have been treating it as a macrotumor in my heart i had hoped it wasnt, and have slowly lowered the pred dosage in hopes she could be weaned off of it. But now im seeing so many familiar signs. My dog Tanner who i lost a few years ago did so many of the same things towards the end. We werent sure, but the neurologist suspected a brain tumor with him. We didnt subject him to any dianostics because he was 15 years old and had other problems as well. We just kept him comfortable until his time came. I often think i waited too long with him but i also know the day we helped him cross over the bridge was very peaceful and we were both ready. So im sure it will be the same with Charlotte. Its just been so different dealing with a younger dog. Seems so unfair when they dont get to live out a full life!
Laurie
I'm keeping you and Charlotte in my prayers... it is so hard when you just have doubts. I hope Charlotte will let you know when it is time and give you peace with your decision. We're here for you, regardless of what you decide, and even if you just need to vent. Take care of yourself, too, so you can care for her.
-Dayle
I feel the same as Shana...I waited too long with my Lee.
When I had to take Lena to the ER the second night in a row, before we left I told my husband that I thought I would put her down. I didn't do it, I was going to see if we could get her to a cardiologist the next day. If not, I was going to have my vet come to the house and put her to sleep. Those were my thoughts after I got home around 2:30 or 3:00 in the morning.
Instead I got a call at 5am that she was in cardiac arrest and did I want them to keep working on her to give me time to get there to be with her. It would've taken me a half hour to 45 minutes to get back there and I couldn't let my baby suffer. She died without me and I will never get over that...I knew, but I waited too long.
Yep. Our first dog Jupiter was only about 8 years old when diagnosed with lymphoma and passed away at home 6 months later. After, my husband and I both had regrets that we had waited so long. (I actually called the vet the day he died, then had to call and cancel...)Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurieS
As Dayle said, we're here for you and Charlotte no matter what.
We had a Saluki who developed canine lymphoma when she was just six years old. We started her on chemo and she went into remission right away, but was so sick from it. It came back about six months later and the University of Pennsylvania was developing a new chemo regime for her.
We started it a few days after Christmas in 1996. I will never forget the way she looked at us when we started it again. She was standing on the table, and she was a gorgeous girl, and she turned and looked at me and my son, who was 16 at the time. Her eyes were so tired and I knew she didn't want to go through this again. We just stood there and cried.
When I picked her up after, I knew she was giving up. I had a syringe of valium in case we needed it. That night she started going downhill so fast and I gave her the shot to relax her and we rushed off to meet my vet at his office. It was 11:00 and he was waiting for us. I stayed with our beloved Isis to her last breath. She was one week shy of her 7th birthday...and I swore I would never put another one of my babies through that again.
Thanks for sharing your stories Shana and Joan. Its easy to second guess yourself and also sometimes its a learning experience. We love them so much and want to do everything we can for them but sometimes we do too much. Im hoping i can find the right balance with Charlotte.
My husband, who is a truck driver, was home for 2 days and i slept on the couch so Charlotte could sleep with him like she used to do when she was his travel companion. He is leaving again this afternoon so he doesnt know if this will be the last time he will see her. And it makes it hard and a bit scary for me to have to think of making the decision alone.
We had lowered the pred to see if we could wean her off but im raising it today. The problem is...she is more relaxed and has less tremors on the lower dose but she wont eat. With a higher dose she will eat a little but tremors and paces more. So i guess thats why i feel its not fair to keep her going much longer if we cant find a dosage where she can be comfortable.
Laurie
That's just so sad, Laurie....
Dear Laurie, even though I've not had the chance to write much lately, I've been following your journey every single day. I've rejoiced on Charlotte's better days, and worried during her worse days. My heart absolutely goes out to you and your husband. You are doing such a valiant job of caring for your sweet girl at a time that has to be so demanding for you, both emotionally and physically.
I'm so grateful your husband had those two days with Charlotte. It brings tears to my eyes to think of them sharing that bed together. And I feel as though I can relate to the burden you're carrying now that you're alone again. My husband was out-of-state at a conference when our Cushpup, Barkis, spiraled down. I felt desperate to keep Barkis going until my husband could get home again to say goodbye. It was so hard, because he wasn't eating or drinking at all. I managed to get him in to the vet every couple of days for subcutaneous fluid injections to keep him going. I was a wreck with the worry. But my husband got home, and we three had one last weekend together before we went ahead and released Barkis, before he got even worse.
That's why I'm so glad your husband had this special time with Charlotte. Because now, I think it's OK for you to finally take care of yourself, Laurie, and make the arrangements to release Charlotte at the time that somehow seems right to you, whenever that may be. This illness, no matter what it is, has gone on long enough now that I don't think it will be reversed. Charlotte may continue to have flashes of energy every once in a while, but I don't think it is selfish or wrong for you to make the decision to release her when the time comes that you are ready to let her go. Instead of thinking you need to wait for a specific sign from her (which may not come until or unless she actually collapses :o), I'm thinking a morning may dawn when there simply are no longer enough good minutes or hours in each day to offset her struggles and your worry. And I think that could likely be any morning from here on out, when you yourself are ready to say goodbye. I hope it will be a morning when your husband is home once again, as well. But if not, we will all be here to support you the very best we can.
You and your husband rescued Charlotte the day you brought her home, and you will be releasing her from the confines of her illness on the day you send her spirit onward. That will be such a sad, sad day for you, but what a blessing for her to have spent these years in your devoted care. No matter which day you choose to release her, she will be making her journey cradled in love.
Marianne
Awww Laurie. There is nothing in the world that makes what you are going through easier to figure out.
I think you just have to figure out what is best for Charlotte and for you and your hubby.
I remember that I'd made the decision to release my molly and I knew absolutely that it was time, but yet that morning, she took a walk and wagged her tail as she smelt and danced around one of her best doggie buddies. I thought, oh no, I should cancel, she is recovering.. but that was my hope, not my reality. She went inside and was back to the same, and having mini seizures, wouldn't eat and drink, could barely stand sometimes. It was time, she has rallied one last time for her best friend, but that was all she had left to give.
It really is so hard to decide this kind of thing, when it is the last thing in the world that we actually want.
HUGS
Dear Laurie,
I think of you and Charlotte every day, knowing we are in a similar situation. Whiskey is my first dog, so I have no advice for you. Everyone keeps telling me "you'll know-Whiskey will tell you" so I hope I don't miss the signs. It's so hard when they're up & down like sweet Charlotte is, you want to give her a chance to have those good days & still enjoy the happy times since she is so young, but yet not having her suffer on the bad days. If only we knew how they really felt, poor babies. I just know that whatever decisions we make, we love our dogs so much and no decision could possibly be the wrong one. And, here is a place you can come with your questions and fears and get the unconditional support, kindness and answers you need. Huge hugs and tummy rubs from us here in PA.
Annie & Whiskey
My heart is singing right now! When i got home from work today Charlotte was waiting for me at the door, which is rare these days, and when i let her outside she promtly chased a squirrel. And then she came inside and ate out of her bowl for the first time in about a week! She has only been willing to eat meatloaf from my hand for the past 6 or 7 days but tonight she ate chicken casserole out of her bowl, meatloaf from my hand and then tried to eat food off of my plate while i was eating on the couch! I gave her some of my baked potato and she ate that, and then a couple hours later right before bed she gobbled up more meatloaf. And the funny thing is, we didnt raise her pred today. Not sure whats going on here but im thrilled to see her eat. I really thought we were losing her yesterday and this morning she wouldnt eat at all so i was really worried. She sure has taken us on an emotional roller coaster ride. She is now laying in bed next to me snoring. It turned out to be a pretty good day!
Laurie
Laurie,
What a wonderful day it turned out to be. I'm so glad that Charlotte had those bursts of energy and appetite!
Thinking good thoughts for her today!
Shana
Same here! A good day is a great day!
YAAA Charlotte!!!!, you go girl!!!!!!!
Instead of raising the pred we have actually been lowering it. We have noticed she seems much more agitated and uncomfortable with higher doses. Last night after a good evening I gave her 5mg (she was given 5mg yesterday AM as well) and she was awake most of the night and tremoring a lot. She ate some chicken (out of her bowl), meatloaf and some of my peanut butter toast this morning then settled down and went back to sleep very peacefully. Because I know I cant just stop the pred cold turkey I gave her 2.5mg this morning and will do the same this evening. I don't know if she can sustain on that low amount but the pred seems to be making her crazy and tremor more, as well as not helping much with appetite. And I've stopped the herbs too just in case those are causing her appetite to decrease. She will continue on the Licks and the slippery elm, along with low dose of pred and I will evaluate from there. But my question to those of you who have used the pred and suspected a macro tumor is did you notice less tremoring when on the pred? And how slowly can I wean her off the pred? She is going from about 10mg a day to 5mg a day as of today. Not sure how long I need to keep her on a dosage each time I lower it?
Laurie
When my neuro doc puts me on a course of pred (it breaks the cycle of my cluster migraines) the dose is lowered every 3 rd day, so say, I started out at 60 mg, I would take that 60 mg for 2 days and on the 3 rd day it is lowered to 50 mg..etc.
Man, I don't know if you will be able to find a dose that will keep her stabilized, you may find that you'll have to adjust it according to how she is acting/feeling. :(
Sending huge and loving hugs, Lori
Thank you Lori, maybe i have lowered her too quickly. But it seems to be making her miserable and whats the point of giving it if its not helping? Ill see how she does tonight and tomorrow. This is really tough and maybe impossible but i cant stand to see her so anxious and jittery. Also the tremoring gets to the point where she cant relax and it lasts for hours. I cant keep putting her through that but i feel i have to at least try and lower it a little or i will always wonder if i tried everything i could.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harley PoMMom
Laurie
Laurie, I posted a brief reply on my thread about your comments and will respond further. I truly wish I knew more about pred, macro tumors and even herbal medications. But, I don't know squat! There must be a gazillion holistic vets in CA. Have you dug deeper into the internet? Would you have confidence if you found one? I know your vet uses holistic medicine along with medical treatment but there must be more information from somewhere. But, maybe I am grasping at straws.
I hope Charlotte is eating and you both are resting easy tonight; Skippy is sleeping and I am thinking of you.
What a wonderful day. You just never know with these fur babies. When they feel like crud you really know and when they feel excellent you really know that too. It's those in between days that drive you crazy.
We will take every great day we can get!
Hey Laurie,
I know you have probably read a ton on CC already. But I just read thru Buttercup's thread (macro, radiation and CC) and there is an enormous amount of info on CC treatments that might be helpful.
Thanks so much Carole! I have read a lot on cc but havent read Buttercups thread so i will do that this weekend. And thanks for your post yesterday too. I read it but didnt have time to reply. Im starting to understand that most macros are not going to respond to treatment that a micro would respond to so im definitely trying to find some alternative treatments as a last resort. I struggle with how much she could be suffering. Is she in pain? Do the tremors cause pain or are they caused by pain? Nobody seems to know. Im playing with the pred dosage right now but have taken her off the herbs completly. I think the herbs were suppressing her appetite, which may have been good for cushings in general but not for a dog with a macro. And yes there should be tons of practitioners here who do alternative medicine but finding one who has something that will help Charlotte, if there is anything, may be hard. I did find a woman here in my town who does Bowen therapy and Accutouch for dogs and i just contacted her to see if she thinks she can help. Even if its to make her more comfortable for the time she has left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carole Alexander
Laurie
Yes Sharlene, those in between days are killers! I feel like i dont know what is best on those days. Is she suffering, does she still want to keep fighting? But then she will have a good day and i just know she still wants to be here.Quote:
Originally Posted by molly muffin
Laurie