Hi. It sounds like you were on a vacation! A cool one too! I didn't read back far enough to see where you went. Still in Canada though by the sound of it. What tests is Molly having? It sounds like she is happy you are home :)
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Hi. It sounds like you were on a vacation! A cool one too! I didn't read back far enough to see where you went. Still in Canada though by the sound of it. What tests is Molly having? It sounds like she is happy you are home :)
So pleased to hear you had a good trip and that Molly is back home. I know what you mean about the house feeling strange when they're not there - I hated going home whilst Hamish was at the groomers.
Molly had an LDDS, another UPC (the third to see if she is having protein loss issues, one good and one bad so far, so this should tell the tale), liver panel, to check those out. I think that was it. Enough for sure.
We went to NewFoundLand. I have to say that Ian Foster is an awesome muscian. His stuff is on itunes, and really, awesome singer, writer. We went to the release party of his new CD and it was great. This is his 6th cd. Just loved him and his music, great story teller.
I saw my first icebergs on only day 2 in town! That was very neat and then we saw Humpback and Fin whales. You didn't actually need to go out on a boat to see them, just drive up to Cape Spear and you could see both icebergs and whales. That is by the way, the most eastern point of north america or so I am told (by the signs posted of course) and we were there. That was cool too.
We are back to fighting diarrhea here. It is something about every time she goes to the kennels. *sigh* So, gave her probiotic tonight and hope that helps. This afternoon wasn't a good one for her though and we had to do the poopy bum when we got back. Poor dear. She doesn't seem to be feeling all that great at the moment. I'm sure the fireworks that got her going last night didn't help matters either.
Time for her next round of walkies!
hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin
Sharlene,
Your post is extremely informative and helpful so I had to reach out. I did not know dogs could safely take probiotics. My vet has never suggested it. Does it typically help with diarrhea?
That sounds amazing…the trip not the poops :( Hope she is on the mend soon and that the lab tests come back soon so you can stop waiting! I would say stop worrying but I am convinced that isn't possible with these Cushing's dogs.
The nutrition vet that is here called to check up on Kaibo as we have seen her before and she is retiring (June 30) and I told her he no longer needs the dietary constraints she recommended for Cushing's but we were having a really hard time controlling his diabetes. She recommended some probiotics and said they might help with the diabetes and take away some of the blood sugar spikes. I have to do some reading on this. I won't start anything until after his surgeries. I have also recently started looking into raw diet for him. There is still a big part of me that wonders if the lack of control has something to do with nutrition.
Hi Sharlene
Darn poops, hope we're not off on that wagon again!! Last time it went through heaps of the pups!!! Poor Molly, wonder if it is like stress colitis being upset in the kennels even though they take such good care of her there is no place like home!! Hope she comes right by tomorrow, ohhhh precious pup will not like the old butt wipey!!
Looking forward to the pics!! One more day to work, hurray (oops still two for you, sorry about that :D) !! xx
Hi angeltoto. Probiotics help to stabilize the bacteria in the gastro tract which can go off and contribute to diarrhea. My vet prescribed it every time and now I just keep some all the time. Some people give it daily. Others will give yogurt to do the same sort of thing.
I rather do think it is a type of stress colitis with Molly.
Nutrition is very important with diabetes so it can certainly play a part with kaibo. Hmmm. Probiotics if it helped would be major easy.
Hugs
Sharlene
Sharlene:
I am with the others in thinking it was the stress from the kennel. I hope she gets well soon as that is a worry. You are probably not getting her results until after the 4th? I use the yogurt on Tipper I have been stuffing her kong with it and freezing it. It keeps her busy for a while licking it out and the cool I am sure soothes her in this weather. Blessings
Patti
HI Sharlene & Ms Molly!
I have missed you guys. I have been out of the loop for what feels like forever. coming back on the forum is scary not knowing what everyone has been going thru all these months.
Amy
No idea when I'll hear about the results. Nothing today. Yes, it is likely the kennel stress. Even though she gets extra play times, etc, it isn't the same as being home. Her poop was good this morning, so maybe that is going to be it.
Amy it is so good to see you again!
hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin
Hi Sharlene:
Tipper is really enjoying her cooler weather!. I hope Molly is doing better and that it is over with? I bet it is hard coming home and settling back into the routine after such a nice vacation. Sometimes you need a vacation after your vacation! Blessings
Patti
Welcome Home Sharlene! So glad you are back safe and sound and I bet Molly is happier than all of us put together! I am sorry to hear she has the runs, poor baby. Could be something they feed her there? and ofc stress being kenneled and away from her mommy and daddy. I hope she feels better very fast!
Hope Molly is feeling better and you are getting some rest. I always need a vacation from my vacation:):):):):):):):)
The other night they were showing the beautiful beaches in Costa Rica. I have never been but the images sure were enticing!!!! Though, I think ice bergs and whales are pretty darn close!!!!!! I have never seen either one.
Enjoy your weekend!!!
Ohhhh I am just watching the soccer match at the world cup between Costa Rica and Netherlands... some pretty cute guys on that team Addy... so another good reason to visit Costa Rica :D
Costa Rica is lovely. Definitely was a hit when we went there on vacation a few years ago with friends.
I'm working to get some pictures posted to photobucket of the newfounland trip. Just waiting on hubby to get his uploaded then I'll post the link. :)
I had a chat with my vet today about molly's latest tests. I still need to go through the liver values before I post them, in comparison to the earlier ones, but the LDDS is still negative for cushings. So I guess that means the adrenal nodule is nonsecreting as the IMS suspected.
The UPC will need to be redone. It came back at 1.1, yes I know, not what we expected, however, the vet thinks the sample went off in transport. They always run an immediate in house test on it, that showed no bacteria, no crystals, and a good sample, protein and everything good. However, on the results returned from the lab, it showed, crystals too numerous to count, cloudy, WBC, Protein, and of course a very high UPC from previous ones. She said that wasn't consistent with the sample in house and so we'll be doing one or two more at least to verify results. (you need 3 consistent high) Very frustrating. Molly's urine was concentrated, at 1.045.
Also we discussed that stress colitis could have an effect on the UPC as I mentioned that it seems to be higher if something else is going on.
So, I'll post the liver values soon. I swear! I just haven't been online much this weekend so far.
Oh and she said that they couldn't get the S-Adenysol-100, only the one with the sam-e, but not milk thistle in it. So, milk thistle would have to be given separately. I told her that it can be ordered on amazon.ca. :)
hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin
HI Sharlene
Those darn UPC do seem to be variable, we have seen similar with Jasper and Flynn when other things are going on. So I think you are right not worrying too much about this result and getting the repeat. It does sound the transportation has affected it. I have wondered that before with Flynn's, I have to get the sample there real early so it gets sent the same day otherwise it sits in the fridge and goes the following day.
Great she is concentrating and a negative LDDS, our Molly remains a medical enigma! But that is our sassy girl :D:D Hopefully she can do you a prescription to get them combined, such a pain to be fiddling about with too many drugs, less is better and I am sure Molly would agree with me on that one! xxx
Yup- sounds like a bad urine sample. The UPC does bounce around if something else is going on. We have all seen that happen.
Good news on the LDDS though.:):):):):):) Also good news she is concentrating her urine!!!
I think I heard someone declare it POOL DAY:D:D:D:D
Good news on the LDDS.
Do you need a prescription to buy the S-Adenysol-100 in Canada? I used to buy it from Amazon in the US and never needed a prescription.
You don't need a prescription to buy it on amazon.ca
I was planning to go through molly's test results tonight and post her liver results, but we've had high humidity the last couple days and by evening, it gives me a really bad headache.
I can't even begin to imagine how bad your's has been MC! :( I saw Arthur hit you guys. Some places had a lot of damage, so glad you only lost one tree.
I need to walk molly and make coffee for in the morning.
hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin
Molly can I ask what brought you to this website despite the negative Cushings diagnosis? Did they suspect it? What were your dogs symptoms?
Hi AngelToto,
In 2010, molly had her first LDDS test due to thinking that she had cushings. Since they have have continued to suspect cushings and retest her but it has consistently been negative. I joined the forum, when the vet was positive she had cushings and I needed to find further information about the disease and possible treatment options and diagnostic options. Since then I think I have spent some time every day, other than being away on vacations, thinking, breathing, canine cushings. Knowledge is always the key. The more you learn, the better you can work with your vet team and be an advocate for your furbaby.
That is what brought me here, and that is what keeps me here. I cannot imagine where we would be today if this forum did not exist. If I can help others who are walking the same path to become more knowledgable about cushings and to be a full member of their pets treatment, then that is a worthy endeavor.
:)
Sharlene and molly muffin
Well I did say I would post her liver results didn't I. I've had some time to look them over and think about them a bit too. So, I'll post the last UPC's and liver, LDDS test:
UPC .06 May 30 2014
specific gravity 1.040
ph 5.5
protein .3 (1+)
UPC 1.1 June 26, 2014
specific gravity 1.045
ph 5.5
protein 3.0 (3+)
Ca 70 (1+)
WBC 3 - 5 hpf (1+)
crystals numerous
VET THINKS THIS SAMPLE went bad in transit, as the in house urinalysis was clear, but even in house
it looks like the protein is still on the high side. So this too I'll want rechecked.
LDDS June 26, 2014
base 100 nmol (range 30 - 300) = 3.62 uh
4 hour <27.59 = < 1.ug
8 hour 29 = 1.05ug
interpretation under <40nmol at 8 hour, their result - she is a normal dog without cushings
Liver Panel June 26, 2014
A/G Ratio 1.96 (range .60 - 1.90)
Albumin 44.4 (26.0 - 44.0)
ALP 1136 (4 - 141)
ALT 225 (6 - 118)
Gamma GT 12.0 (0.0 - 7.0)
Now, my thoughts. Yes, the vet thinks the sample might have gone bad during transit due to the comment of crystals too numerous to count, when they saw none in house. However, just a note, protein is high in both in house and in the lab on the urinalysis.
The ALT is going up at an alarming rate. It went from 162 in Dec 2013 to 225 in June 2015, 6 months. That is not good in my mind. Does this appear to be indicative of liver disease to you guys?
I have concerns about the protein going up so much in the urine sample and we will be retesting that in 2 - 3 weeks.
At this point I am not as concerned about a functioning adrenal tumor, with the LDDS being negative on that front. They seem to all think that if that was a functional one secreting cortisol, then she wouldn't be negative on the LDDS as most dogs with adrenal tumors secreting cannot suppress, 4 or 8 hours.
I do have some concerns that taking off of the SO food, might not have been so smart. As you can see, she isn't drinking and is very concentrated at 1.045 now.
So, am I worried, yes I am very worried about her liver. I know that haven't seen any nodules on the ultrasound but something is going on with her. If she has some sort of liver disease, then would that account for the ACTH being high?
Should I go forward with the flax hulls and melatonin, which the IMS wanted to see if bringing down the sex hormones would help the liver values? I'm leaning towards going forward with that. It won't hurt her I shouldn't think and we need something to help. I will be ordering the stuff you used for Hamish MC, for a liver supplement, I think the sam-e has to be included in this treatment.
Should I start them both at the same time? I'm thinking it matters less at the moment whether we know if it is the flax/melatonin or the sam-e if we can get that ALT down some.
okay, that is my thoughts for now.
hugs all,
Sharlene and molly muffin
Big hugs Sharlene. You know that I don't understand any of it, so sending hugs instead! :p
Check on the COOLING MATS thread that I posted on EVERYTHING ELSE. You will crack up! Consider the source! :D:D
I saw, I admired, I commented! You are fabulous!
hugs back atcha,
Sharlene and molly muffin
Hey Sharlene, yes I would also be tempted to try the melatonin and flax seeds. I think like you, it is not going to do any harm. I think they have mentioned a liver biopsy in the past? What do your vets think about proceeding with that? I also would go with the liver supplement now too.
RE UPC I would retest again, so we can see the trends or if there was in fact a problem with the transporting. No need for treatment unless it goes >2.0. So she is a way off that for now thank goodness. I always see UPC go up if Flynny's liver tests are off. So hopefully if we get the liver working a bit more efficiently with the meds then UPC will go down again too. x
Yup, I would go ahead start the lignans/melatonin and liver support supplements, too. And like Trish, I guess I would be wondering about a liver biopsy, too.
But this is the thing, Molly has had highly elevated cortisol for a long time now, regardless of the LDDS results. I know this may be really unorthodox, but I am still wondering whether it wouldn't be prudent to get the cortisol level down significantly regardless of the cause (I'm still beating the drum for the maintenance Lyso...). I know we're stuck with the chicken vs. the egg dilemma, but all those lab abnormalities could be the result of chronic elevated cortisol, which we know Molly has from the repeatedly high ACTHs. And the ACTH has stayed consistent throughout time, even while the liver values have been worsening. This is what prompts me to think that it is the cortisol affecting the liver rather than vice versa.
Would you consider sending an email to Dr. Bruyette, just to see what his take would be on a dog with Molly's profile (+ACTHs, -LDDSs, adrenal tumor on ultrasound, lab abnormalities but no overt symptoms)? She is indeed such a puzzle, but he's seen so many Cushdogs through the years that maybe he's faced something similar. Just a thought...
Marianne
Hi Sharlene,
I don't see liver disease in those numbers. I see the classic pattern that we see in both typical and atypical cushing's. The ALT has gone up but it is still a tad less than a two fold increase. Albumin is low in dogs with primary liver disease and Molly's is a tiny bit high, which is not a concern. I think starting treatment for atypical cushing's is a great idea and I also agree with Marianne that you might consider adding a maintenance dose of Lysodren. Liver biopsies are not benign and I personally would not consent to one based on the results you posted. That's my two cents worth.
I, too, think that adding the melatonin and lignans would be a good plan, though it can take up to 6 months for improvements to be seen with this treatment. So if this were me, I would begin the melatonin/lignans and in 6 months retest the liver values and if no improvement is seen than I would consider adding a maintenance dose of Lysodren.
Hugs, Lori
Thank you all so much.
I agree and my IMS agrees that the liver biopsy isn't benign and her concern is the cortisol being high when it would be done and possibly bleeding, so they won't do that unless something shows on the ultrasound that is indicative that there is a specific problem with the liver itself. Thank you for that addition Glynda!
Marianne, the reason the IMS didn't go with lysodren maintenance dose right now is that she is wary of using lysodren in a dog with no symptoms. Even atypical you usually have symptoms and molly just doesn't. Specifically with the not eating all her food all the time and lack of drinking water. All things that she would expect to see and she says this makes it difficult even with maintenance dosage of lysodren. It could become an option though if the lignan and melatonin don't do anything.
She said that even in a dog who say has pituitary cushings and tests negative on the LDDS, she wouldn't expect it to be consistently negative as molly's has been. She thinks that is very strange for a cushing dog. I don't know myself, I mentioned that there is that 5% who test negative and she said, yes, but they normally Do have symptoms and because medication is started follow up LDDS usually isn't done, you switch to the ACTH. That for it just consistently through years be negative is what is strange. Hence, we seem to never get that positive diagnosis of cushings. I went back through every test and found the very first LDDS was done in 2010. This makes 4 years now *sigh* perplexing to me anyway.
So, I ordered the S Adenosyl 100, as I want to get that sam-e involved in her liver and I'm switching her over to Dasequin with MSM for joint support.
I just now after all day of looking have Finally found a place to order HMR lignans which seems to have better results than the flax hulls and melatonin.
It just seems to be impossible to find in Canada, but this place does have a canadian outlet to get it direct from, so I plan to get that ordered tonight and get her started, as soon as they all come in.
I appreciate the feedback. We'll retest the UPC in a couple weeks. She'll be having a follow up ultrasound at some point, in the next couple months. (postponing a bit to wait and see if these options make a difference in both her liver values and what we see on the ultrasound, but they need time to work)
I'm glad you don't think it is liver disease, but a result of the high cortisol, which while that isn't good either, is at least more treatable I hope.
I wonder, if it is possible that molly does have pituitary cushings. If so why no symptoms and why does she suppress on the LDDS all this time. We wouldn't have even thought of treating her if she hadn't had that ACTH because I didn't fast her once and then the ultrasound thanks you guys. It is just all baffling and blows my mind after all the years I've been living breathing cushings now on the forum. So weird.
hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin
your molly's liver values etc. really are a riddle to everone i guess.
weird that she has no symptoms and is doing so well considering.
well she must be special i think! wonder molly!
There is no doubt that our Molly is special! ;) They broke the mold when Miss Muffin emerged and that's a great thing! :D We wouldn't want her any other way! :p:):D
That is the truth Kathy, I think our pups have the most unique and wonderful personalities.
So, HMR Lignans 20mg and melatonin 3mg have been ordered from Lignans For Life.
hugs all, thanks for the help
Sharlene and molly muffin
Hey Sharlene,
I'm sorry there is no clear cut path for you and Molly. I can imagine you are worried about what steps to take for our special little girl. I think I agree with Lori, see what the melatonin and lignans accomplish first;they do take a good three months. I would think four years in to this, we would see some more common symptoms, not just a profile in her blood work. Actually, I was just reading an excerpt from Dr. Peterson's blog about just that. I hope I book marked it so I can find it again for you.
I also agree with Glynda about nixing the liver biopsy. I said no to Zoe's.
I think you and Molly chilling this week is a well deserved and much needed break for the two of you. Enjoy it!!!!
Big hugs
http://animalendocrine.blogspot.com/...c-dog-for.html
found it- you probably already read it:)
Wow...reading back on these posts and very much a puzzle. Still, I wouldn't give lysodren if no serious symptoms are present. Lignans and Melatonin are worth a shot. Lignans capsules can be ordered online and are easier to give than flax seed....I used to put flax seed in yogurt and my dog loved it.
Jeff and the Girls
One thing to remember with the S-Adenosyl 100 if it's the same one I used is that is does contain 20mg of milk thistle so if you are also using the Hepato Support you need to check what the maximum dose should be for Molly.
Hi Sharlene-sounds like a bit of a rough patch for you now. It takes me back to working with Palmer....how much information needs to be gathered, how much stuff needs to be done and how, in the end, you still can't get concrete answers as to eactly what you're dealing with. Four years is a pretty long time, I think, to be dealing with this. I was overwhelmed by the details and issues this disease poses.
Did you get to see icebergs with their blue light look? When we went to Alaska, we went about a month too early and not much thawing had begun. I think it's the thawing that produces that gorgeous blue light. A friend went and got lots of great pictures.
Hugs to you and Molly.
Susan
Hi Sharlene, Sorry you do not have a clear cut diagnosis I am useless when it comes to these tests, sorry. The only values I know a little about are the ALT and ALP due to my boys pancreatitis..I might be saying something stupid here but could that mean pancreatitis for Molly?
Her pancrease values are all normal, so I think that is okay.
The HMR lignans and the melatonin arrived today, That was fast, thank you very much Lignans For Life! She has had her first dose of lignans already, she gets one pill a day and she'll have her first melatonin at around 8pm tonight, since they say to give it every 12 hours. I'm wondering if I should start her at 1.5mg melatonin or right at 3mg to start with? She's never had it so not sure how sensitive she might be to it. The tablets can be split, to 1.5mg since I ordered the 3mg and they are scored.
No I won't get the S-Adenosyl 100 And the Heppato Support both, I will only give one of them and since the S-Adenosyl 100 has everything, we'll go with that. It is Very hard to find in Canada though and I might end up having to go with the liver support supplement and then plain S-Adenosyl if it becomes to difficult to get. I paid a fortune, twice what you can get it in the states for, through amazon.ca.
Yep, we saw icebergs. Quite awesome.
Hubby has now uploaded his photos, so I'll go through tonight and post the link.
Hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin
Newfoundland pictures link:
http://s199.photobucket.com/user/Sha...undland%202014
http://s199.photobucket.com/user/Sha.../From%20Daniel
There is even an extra "cowgirl" bonus pic at the end of Daniels folder.
Enjoy for those of you who wanted to see the pics.
P.S. let me know if there are any problems with the links, don't do this very often.
Hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin