Tipper - adrenal tumor/breathing issues

Hi Patti,
I just want to let you know that Freckles has the shakes/tremors while awake for these various reasons that I have finally figured out in the past couple weeks:
1. upset stomach
2. has to pee or poop
3. torn ACL in back leg bothering her
She had the shakes in her hind legs before vetoryl, while on vetoryl, and now she still has them while she is in the vetoryl "wash out" month of no vetoryl.

Like you, I do not want to take her out in bad weather, but she knows that she is supposed to go out, so she "holds it in" and shakes.
If the weather is damp, the ACL could be bothering her, so she shakes.
The upset stomach caused the most shakes, even full body ones. Vetoryl can cause stomach upsets, but they need it to control Cushings, so it is a Catch-22. The full body shakes while awake stopped when all medicines were stopped and she ate a bland diet. It calmed her stomach but I know I will she will need the Vetoryl so the stomach problems may return then.

The full body shakes while sleeping have happened to all my beagles over the years, and to me, they are just good dreams. The really active & noisy ones are the ones that we would say she must be chasing a rabbit in her dreams.

I hope the new diet works well and will be interested to see how it goes once you get all the ingredients. I am considering doing what you are doing once I get her digestive system settled with her bland diet.

Louise

Hi Louise and Everyone:
Louise thank you for the information. This is very hard to figure out about Tipper. I got her chicken and sweet potatoes. The produce manager could not have been sweeter, and gave me a holiday price too! Gotta save where I can. I stopped at the vets to get Tipper and Lucky's Ursodiol and the girl told me it would be 145.00. I said real loud "what!!!" I said I pay 60.00 for it and I refuse to pay 145.00 this is outrageous. She called someone and said ok it's 60.00. What a bunch of malarkey that was. You have to speak and and be heard or you get snookered every time. I am disappointed that the supplements did not come though so I cannot make the food until they come. So I guess I have to wait and see Monday. The roads were very icy with black ice and I saw 2 cars wrecked in ditches from it. I went slow and was safe so now all that is done. Tipper needed chicken anyway even if she can't start her diet as I ran out and had to give her fish this morning. It does not stay with her like the chicken. Snow is coming down and the sun is shining and it looks beautiful, but only 19 degrees. I walked Tipper around in the yard to get her legs moving, not heavy walking in these temps because of her heart having to work too hard. Blessings
Patti

Patti,
Does the meal plan from the nutritionist tell you how much of the sweet potatoes to feed Tipper? Freckles has been on white rice and chicken but got constipated so I gave her sweet potatoes instead of rice. I must have given her too much as things went the other way. Now I am back on white rice but I need to find a happy medium so her system can get back to being regular. The sweet potatoes act like pumpkin I read.
Looks like we (NJ) are going to get your bitter cold weather later in the week. The cold never seems to bother Freckles but I worry anyway.
Stay warm.
Thanks
Louise

Patti,

I'm responding to your comment in Snuggles thread. I feel awful that you are worried that Tipper might have a pheo and that is why I asked about the video - just so I could see the breathing episodes. I know you'll manage it once the lighting issues are worked out.

Does Tipper have high blood pressure? I'm sorry but I could not remember if you ever mentioned it. If not you can feel better about it not being a pheo. I was told dogs with pheos always have HBP. Kim

Kim:
Tipper has had some higher than "her" normal blood pressures but not high according to the vet and IMS. She was at 120 before she gained the pound, and now 140. She has had some 150 and 170 but I get hers done every Wednesday so out of 14 months she has had about 7 higher than normal for her. Only once did she have a 190 and we were having a storm and she is deathly afraid of them. This is the one that the eye Dr. thinks made her vessels bleed in her eyes. They are fine now and it is gone. We had many storms this summer, and I am sure they are the cause of some of her higher than normal readings for her. Do you think if this was a Pheo that the tremors would stop when I call her name and she wakes up, or would they continue? That is the case if I shake her or call her name and wake her it stops immediately. Do pheos only secrete at nite?? IF she did not have these tremors I would not be concerned that this is a possibility. I am not sure when this tumor started on her adrenal gland, as the vet that diagnosed her pituitary cushings did not have a high resolution US. So it could have been there all along. It was only discovered when Leslie told me to go where there is a high resolution machine. I took her to Pgh. to the hospital there and they saw it. It is on the left one it encapsulates the adrenal gland, and has not traveled anywhere else, and has not grown when I took her 2 months after it was discovered. The IMS told me that pheos look different in US than a regular tumor, whatever that means. She is to go again on the 15th of January that will be 3 months to see if it has grown. I am still trying to get the video for you to see, I will try again tonite. If I could somehow eliminate that as a possibility I would not be so worried. Easier said than done huh? This makes me a nervous wreck, and when she has these tremors at nite I am having a hard time sleeping after seeing them. Thank you for all the help you have been to me. This dog is my lifeline, and I am desperately trying to do whatever I can to keep the quality of life she currently has, or make it better. Blessings
Patti

Those blood pressure readings are mostly normal so I would say she doesn't have it but good for you for monitoring. Pheos emit when they feel like it not just at night and absolutely a dog would not quit trembling when their name is called. Annie was like in another world when it was happening which freaked me out. I just held her close but couldn't stop it. So I tend to think the trembling is from something else. That said it's the breathing episode I'm curious about. Not saying it is a pheo I am just saying it is not something we normally hear about (strange noise you mentioned) and that is why I think it's worth filming. I tend to think it is not a pheo. Hugs, Kim

Hi Patti,
I don't know if this helps or not but my local vet told me right after he got the ultrasound report, that if the tumor is on the inside of the adrenal gland, then it would be due to Cushings, if the tumor is on the outer side of the adrenal gland it would be a pheo tumor. Praying for Tipper not to have a pheo. Can they tell from Tippers ultrasound where the tumor is located exactly inside or out?

Wow interesting I had never heard that before (about location) Kim

I might have gotten it mixed up , pheos are the tumors in the adrenal medulla which is the center of the adrenal gland and cushings tumors are in the adrenal cortex which is along the perimeter of the adrenal gland, I will ask the IMS or my local vet so I can post the correct facts.

I'm not a dog nutritionist by trade.. but, I'd like to jump in on the home cooked diet with my own experience. I am currently cooking for my girl pug, and have ample experience doing raw and cooked diets for past fosters long-term. Today was one of my cooking days, so I just made 2 weeks worth of food in advance.

The ideal balance for meat vs carbs/veggies is 3 to 1. Three parts protein (meat) to one part veggies and carbs. You can lessen this, but should never, ever go below 50/50, although I would personally think 50/50 is way too low on protein. I go for an ideal of 70/30 to 80/20.

My girl pug is 18 pounds, and I do 7 to 7.5 oz of meat to 2.5 oz of veggies for one day worth of feeding. A kitchen scale is invaluable

The best way for uptake on the veggies is for them to be cooked and mashed or pureed. I start by boiling or steaming the veggies, and then after they cool I mash them (sweet potatoes or squash) or run through the food processor (zucchini, kale, collards). I add in peas or green beans too. While I am mashing / processing, I will boil the meat. I like to use ground meat, but you can use chunks of muscle meat too. You can toss in some liver or kidney as well, but that ratio should be 90% muscle meat, and only 10% organ meat. It is best to lightly cook the meat. It really doesn't take long.

Patti, I am interested to know what supplements your nutritionist suggested! I have only used B Naturals or Wysong in the past, so I'd love to know what your nutritionist is recommending.

Renee,
Thank you so much for the portion information and your valuable experience in preparing people food for our babies. It's just what I was hoping to read. So far Freckles has had problems with ground beef, even though it was 92% lean and boiled, but I am not sure if it was the beef or that she wolfed it down too fast in typical beagle fashion. I have to feed her in a special bowl with a raised bone in it that keeps her from taking big gulps of food. :)
I am happy to report that her beagle howls woke me this morning. It's been a long time since that happened, so I am hopeful her insides are calming down.
I hope everyone has a calm Sunday.
Louise

Hi Everyone:
I don't know what I would od without all of your help. I thank you all as this is a very hard journey for me. That being said I talked in depth with Glynda about Tipper's situation. She is wise beyond what you can even imagine, and a heart of gold to match. After going into details with her, I am going to let go of the pheo theory from what she said I feel comfortable that is not what Tipper has. I believe and does Glynda that this is a combination of the Vetoryl and something else like muscle wasting. Anyone on here reading this that you dog has tremors, please try something for me. If their legs is jumping please hold it firmly and see if you feel some type of energy coursing thru it. It is like holding an electrical cord and feeling the current running thru it. I will continue to try and film her doing this she still will not lay down with the lite on and I am so tired this morning from it. Also Glynda told me to examine where her breast bone is and, I have seen in the last months it going south more and more. This is fat redistribution and when she lays down may be pressing on her diaphragm causing the breathing noises. Makes perfect sense to me. Especially with her moving about the bed a lot she is trying to breathe better that is why she lays flat when she gets frustrated as this must alleviate the pressure. I need to definitely get the weight off her that she gained as this adds to the pressure. I won't be able to make the diet until Tuesday or Wednesday as no supplements came yet. Louise the sweet potato that she is allowed is for a 1 week portion of two cups mashed. Renee I will have to look at the completed list of supplements that I have not gotten yet. I have the main ones now and there will be some for Tipper's specific condition. I know the calcium ranks high on the list. Also for all of you wondering about too much protein in a cush dogs diet, I can tell you after all I have learned from Glynda and the nutritionist that is the phosphorous you need to watch out for not the protein, as it effects the kidneys. I never thought when I saw the word Cushings after researching Tipper's symptoms, that this journey would be so overwhelming. This is one of the worst if not the worst disease to manage and educate yourself on as it has no bounds. The material on it is endless, but the part that is so hurtful is there is no one even near finding all the causes and the cure. The amount of dogs with this disease is astronomical and grow every day as evidenced on this forum. God I pray for a cause and cure to be found so others that come after us don't have to travel this journey. Sometimes I feel my head will burst with all the things I try and read and remember and figure out. One thing is constant though, I will go on no matter what, to help my precious girl. This morning it is very frigid here I think in the single digits. The dogs will not be walking, but if it warms up I will take them in the yard and around the house to get their legs moving. The streets here look like glass they are so icy and more to come Monday. I am glad I do not have to go out. If it is bad Wednesday I will skip Tipper's blood pressure which I never do, but it is not worth an accident. I remember all to well last year when that man ran me off the road and kept going. I do not want that experience again. I am going to take this time to catch up on some things inside that need my attention. Hope everyone stays safe and warm with their babies. Blessings
Patti

Louise:
I am glad you had that thing about the tumor wrong as Tipper's is on the outside surrounding the adrenal gland. I am going to ask the IMS on the next US January 15th if it can be see going into her medulla or not. I think it would involve the cortex in her case but not positive. I know is Latin medulla means the center of something.Blessings
Patti

Oh, I am so glad Glynda was able to help you with settling the pheo question in your mind! She is a true treasure and has done the same for me so many times. I have been in total full-blown panic and Glynda can laugh at me for it and all is well immediately. I do tend to make mountains out of mole hills when it comes to my babies. :o:p You do remember the breast cancer / boob incident? :p:D:o:p:D:o And there have been many others over the years here. Our family is always here to help us think things through and take that next breath with a bit more ease. What would we do without them?

Speaking of ice - I left the outside faucet running so it wouldn't freeze. Maybe running a bit too strongly, tho. :D The pipes haven't frozen but the yard is a solid sheet of ice! Looks like an ice skating rink and that water is steady running, building it thicker and thicker! :p

Hi Patti,

When you observe Tipper walking, particularly when she is walking away from you, have you noticed a difference in her gait? Does her rear legs look really stiff when she walks and and does she walk with a wide based stance? Have you massaged her back legs, starting at the hip and noticed anything that feels like a dimpling or knot?

Glynda

Glynda:
She does walk kind of straight legged at times because she has luxating patella problems. She does however go to cold laser therapy once every 3 weeks, and they do her hip, back legs, back etc. I notice she does have a wider gait at times too. I have not noticed a knot anywhere near the hip. There is however a place about 2 inches long on her back where you can see it sunk from the weight of her belly pulling down and no muscle to hold it up. She does not always let you manipulate the rear legs, she gets a little nasty. Thank you so much for all your help. I am able to make better sense of things now. Blessings
Patti

In my experience, with non-cush dogs, tremors and inability to settle, circling, laying down and getting back up, are indicators of pain or muscle spasms. I have my old man pug on methocarbamol, which is a muscle relaxer, to help with this. He has a bad back and lots of arthritis. If he's in pain, he has a hard time laying down and settling. The muscle relaxer helps a lot. He also gets rimadyl daily too, but the muscle relaxer has made a big impact for him.

HIJACK:D:D

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When you observe Tipper walking, particularly when she is walking away from you, have you noticed a difference in her gait? Does her rear legs look really stiff when she walks and and does she walk with a wide based stance? Have you massaged her back legs, starting at the hip and noticed anything that feels like a dimpling or knot?

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Zoe walks like that and her gait has changed since her surgery last February. What does it mean?

Addy:
I am wondering that too.

Me too as Woody walked like this and had a wide gait just before he collapsed the other week. Sorry patti we,re hijacking your thread :D

No problem, hijack away. As long as we all need help it doesn't matter which post we get it from right? This has me very curious. Blessings
Patti

Ok....very interested in these new gait postings. Kaibo has had changes too. And currently is unable to move very well as his hip is partially dislocated. Your comments about the stiff walk, changed gait, etc interest me. Is this discussed in anyone's thread? I don't mean to hijack too but I want all info I can get to help Kaibo! The Cushing's may be gone for him but clearly his body still has damage from the disease/tumour.

Hi Patti. I know it's a daily struggle for us all with our fur babies, and everyday I wonder if something new is going to crop up. I totally agree that so much more research has to be done, but I also know from this forum, I've never seen in a lot of cases so poorly educated veterinarians. Sometimes I wonder just what they actually study before they get their certificate. I know in my case if I'd listened to the vet, Keesh would have been dead now 5 months.

Stay safe with all this bad weather, give Tipper a big hug from me and Keesh.

Hi Everyone:
I am still at it trying to make Tipper sleep with the lite on. This may be a losing battle. She is like a little old lady that is set in her ways and doesn't like change. She has been making a lot of snoring sounds at nite. I did notice after her Adequan shot the tracheal issues are calming a bit. It is suppose to go in the 30's today so she will get her walk. Talk about naughty, she was really at it yesterday letting me know she does not like staying in the house and not walking. She was bulldozing stuff, taking Toby's ball so he would whine, trying to pull some of her toys apart. Just general naughtiness to let me know she is irked with me. It is very dark out today and some more snow on the ground. I am hoping her supplements come today. Blessings
Patti

Would Tipper notice if you lit candles after she was asleep? You might try setting some up around the bed then when she's out, light them and try to video tape her. I don't think it would take many candles to give enough light to see what she is doing.

Hi Everyone:
I think I may try the candles or I have a tap lite. Maybe after she is sleeping I could just tap the lite on and it is not real brite and she would not notice. God ,don't you feel stupid when you can't outsmart your dog???? Tipper has walked twice and it is black outside looks like rain maybe. I am trying to catch up on things in here that need done. Blessings
Patti

Patti - you are owned by a Jack Russell you will never outsmart them :D

Good one. Very very good.

Patti I know the feeling, my boys can outsmart me when it comes to stealing food, Snugs does the sneakiest thing, he pretends he needs to go potty by going into the kitchen and circling by the glass sliding door, but the second I walk into the kitchen to let him out he runs over to the pantry where the goodies are LOL

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Originally Posted by Woodydog

Patti - you are owned by a Jack Russell you will never outsmart them :D

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Hahahahaha! So true! So very true! We've had a few terriers come through our rescue, and every time someone adopts them, I think what a special person it must take to understand and adore that terrier personality! :p

Squirt isn't JRT but she is half Cairn Terrier and I have never been able to trick her. There have been times when I thought I had tricked her but the look in her eye told me quite plainly that she was allowing me to think that! :p

Patti, you sure have your hands full with Tipper. I can't trick Daisy but she responds well to bribery.

Hi Everyone:
Well I got all ready last nite, had the tap lite to turn on for light , and had the phone all ready, so what does Tipper do? She gets off the bed and goes in her crate and stays there. I am going to video this if I have to wait all nite already this is ridiculous. It was just like she knew I could not video her in the crate. Lots of throaty noise this morning from her. It is only 22 outside so she will not be walking. Poor little Toby threw up all nite, and this morning too, can't keep his food down. I di not know what is wrong. I will keep a close watch, and if need be take him to the vets as he is in today and tomorrow. He is always running around 100 miles an hour and this morning he is curled up in a ball. This just came on last nite. Just what I need another sick animal! I have still not received the supplements for Tipper's food yet, I am a little disgusted that it is taking so long to get them. All I can do is wait. Tomorrow is blood pressure day. Blessings
Patti

Where did you order the supplements from? Did they all come from one place? It seems to always take a long time to get the kelp we use but the others don't take that long if memory serves. I don't have to reorder often enough to really remember but I do remember getting frustrated over the kelp.

Awwwwww. Poor Toby! Maybe he ate something he shouldn't have?

Oh no! Poor "sweet as chocolate Toby boy"!:o Please keep a close eye on him and make sure he doesn't get dehydrated. Xxxx

How is Toby doing? I hope he is all better!

Oh no, hope Toby is doing better. Not good for him to be throwing up like that. :(
You definitely don't need him to get sick too, what with Tipper and Lucky already having issues.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

Sharlene:
His nick name is Tobers so poor Tobers is under the weather. If not beet tomorrow Tipper goes for blood pressure unless it is bad out as we are to get lake effect snow. He did keep his supper down. He may have picked up a piece of wood form Elvis. Elvis had toys to keep him occupied and her gets chipping away at the wooden ones and sometimes wails a small piece out. I try to watch but can't always be there, so maybe Toby picked one of those up. I hope he is better by morning. He is the baby, he whines and cries when something is wrong. Then we have Tipper the Ripper that is tuff as nails and never cries. So I have to baby poor Toby and he loves the attention. He is the sweetest little thing. Kathy remembered his name on his papers was Sweet As Chocolate Toby Boy, and he is! Blessings
Patti

Hi Everyone:
I sent a question to the IMS today about Tipper's breath. It has been bad lately and never was before. I brush her teeth every day but maybe that is not enough, and before she got Cushings she had them cleaned once a year, every year. I wanted to know if she thought it was safe with her heart and all to put her under to clean teeth as I don't want bacteria going other heart, I am well aware of that and that is why I always brush every critters teeth here every day, well except for Elvis!! She want to refer me to the dentist there to get a consultation. I think not , I will speak to my vet, and then let the IMS see her teeth on the same day she checks the tumor and see what she thinks then. They must think went Tipper goes potty 50.00 bills come out. I have really extended myself this past month on her care and have the Ultra Sound and Cardiologist coming up, so I need to watch it big time. I will talk to the vet tomorrow about it. Maybe he can figure something else out. Any ideas out there are most welcome. Blessings
Patti