Molly, 13 yr, shih tzu - lhasa aspo - Molly has passed

So my independent pet store carries Fromm's, so she gave me 5 different samples to try with molly. I had to stop by to pick up the teddy treats, which you'd think the world has ended because I ran out and hadn't gone to get more. Hubs and Molly always share one when he comes home from work. They've been substituting others, but this morning he said, are you going to go pick up more of the teddy bear treats. LOL They are peanut butter, very thin and easy to break and molly sits on his lap and high fives him to get each treat. If he is too slow in breaking on off she bumps his hand with her nose to tell him to get a move on buster. hahahah I love to watch this daily ritual.

I'd love to have her on something better than the SO, just have to figure out how to get her to drink enough water without it and keep the crystals at bay. I think Glynda mentioned adding potassium to her food, can I just sprinkle that on the food and if so how much? I remember when she told me a few years ago, I couldn't just buy it, but I think they have it now on amazon.ca so I can order some.

It's cool and rainy here today. Molly is in nap mode for the most part with periods where she wakes up, plays hard, and then looks outside and goes back to curl up in the blanket. It's really kind of funny.


hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

Sharlene:
Tipper eats Fromm now too. I have to stock up when I go to Pittsburgh as the shipping on Amazon for this is unreal. I can tell you from experience with potassium, it is horrible tasting and I would have periodic blood work as too much in your system is not good. Molly is a real character. Blessings
Patti

Does Molly have struvite or oxalate stones? My Bear took potassium citrate for the prevention of formation of oxalate stones.

I thought at first it was struvite, but then I thought I saw something that said oxalate. I'll clarify for sure with her vet. I tried to look back on my thread as I remember this being recommended early in my journey here, then last year when I found out I could get the citrate. I must have been thinking they were oxalate stones. I was a bit concerned about calcium that seems to be in all dry dog foods. I am not going to change her off anything or even try the samples until after she has her next UPC in mid/end may. She will be on the SO dry and wet until that is over with as I don't want any food differences to change the results. I wouldn't know what was causing what.

Lori how do you give the potassium citrate? If I go down this path.

This is all thought process at the moment. She hasn't had any more crystals since I switched her to the SO but we know she has those small kidney stones now.
Her ph is 7.0 so that should be where we want her right?

So many things, man it sure can be confusing. From what I had red, high ph, contributes to struvite crystals, low ph contributes to oxalate crystals?

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

Sharlene:
My citrate was in long tablets. They are not bad, but once had potassium that you dissolved in water, it was so bad it made me through up! If you email Fromm and ask for samples they will tell you they have none and send you a 10.00 certificate to buy some. Blessings
Patti

Hi Patti,
I have 5 different types of Fromm food samples, from the pet store. She is an independent and said she gets some in every week or two. There is a new one out that people are raving over she said and she can't keep it on the shelf. It is a hypoallergenic food from Fromm's. She said if she gets a sample of that in, then she'll save one back for me. I do love the independent stores, so much better than the chains. The service is exceptional. I stopped in the big PetSmart chain this morning since it was next door to another store I was in, to see if they happen to have my treat and they didn't. Then stopped by my independent and she had 2 different flavors. She'll usually try to order something in if you want to try something new and then she regularly stocks the stuff that she knows moves well that people want over the years. She also does cat rescue, so I spend at least a good 30 minutes or more playing with the cats that roam the store. (dogs are welcome to come in but she said she'd be in big trouble if she starting doing the dog rescue as she keeps any that don't get adopted right away, they NEVER end up back on the streets for any reason) I like her. Hubs says she's 3 sheets close to crazy, but he likes her too. ROFL! Anyway, I support my local independent mom and pop or just mom and kids, whatever the case may be stores. I'm sad we have no more independent book stores near us any more, just can find them now basically down town.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

pH of 7 is good, I don't think she would need potassium citrate at that level. You do not want to make her urine to alkaline as that could cause other problems. Best thing would be to keep her hydrated as you do. Avoid supplements with too much calcium, vit c also. I am pretty sure Molly does not eat too much oxalates, or salt that is more a human problem!

Calcium and oxalate are what oxalate stones are made of. The potassium citrate attaches to the calcium as to hinder oxalate formation.

It also acts by alkalinising urine, if the urine is already at a good pH which Molly's is then there is little benefit. If you make urine too alkaline as other types of stones can form. I am not so up with the play on stones in dogs, but I know in humans we very rarely use this, sometimes in recurrent stone formers. We have found GI issues with it. Often in humans we look at calcium, citrate levels in blood and urine and other metabolic problems that can cause stones.

Love the picture in my mind of Molly sitting with your husband doing the high five for her peanut butter teddy treats!! I'm sure it's even cuter in person than in my head!! :p

Barbara

My Crys had struvite crystals, caused by infection, which I think is how most if not all struvite crystals / stones begin. She never developed stones but we battled the crystals off and on. If memory serves, we gave her a pretty hefty dose of Vit C and I know I used cranberry and a variety of citrus fruit to acidify the pH so the crystals had a harder time getting started. Again, if memory serves, diet is much more important when dealing with oxalate than struvite. Food can cause the formation of oxalate but not struvite...again if the memory is correct. In addition, cush pups are prone to the oxalate type. There are several other types of crystal / stones but those two seem to be most common. If you have never seen what these crystals look like, google them - some are pretty and some downright spooky! None look pleasant to have to pass, tho. :eek:

Sharlene:
It is very dark and looks like we are going to have a storm again. I will be giving Tipper some of new storm meds soon. How is it up your way? I am taking it easy today as I will be leaving her at 4 am for my cardio appt.. It makes me worry to leave Tipper with the sitter. Hopefully I can get home quickly after I go the pet food store. Blessings
Patti

No storms here. Sunshine and a bit of a cool northern wind.
We've been out and about today and molly has had 3 walks already as she is a bundle of energy today.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

Wow Sharlene, I have been getting caught up with everything that has been happening with Molly. I wish I had some smart input to offer about the UTK results or the ultrasound. :o I need to go back and re-read everything. I know you are worried about the UPC, but that value really isn't super bad. Of course we would be happier if it was below 0.5. Like you said, we will need to watch for a trend, and hopefully when she gets it checked again it will either be stable or lower. No offense, but we can do without your sweet girl in the protein pup band. :) ;)

I am so sorry you have been so busy at work, I completely understand what a pain in the butt that is. It just magnifies the stress you feel with everything else, and makes things so much more difficult to manage.

It sounds like Molly is feeling well and her leg issue is much better, I am glad to see that. She is such a cutie. Yesterday when I was at the vets there was a little girl there that looked a lot like Molly, she was a Lhasa mix named Pebbles. In came the lady's husband with Pebbles' brother, you guessed it, his name was Bam Bam. Lol. They were both very sweet. I thought of Molly right away, and also Zoe.

My Dakota suffered from urinary crystals, and actually ended up developing very small calcium oxalate stones which needed to be flushed out. She was started on some granules to prevent the crystals, and never had a problem after that. It was called Goldvet:

http://www.kalahealthvet.com/#Gold%2...ate%20Granules

I used to order it from KV supply as it was cheaper there than at the vets, and they just happened to be located in Nebraska!

http://www.kvsupply.com/gold-vet-300-grams-11-ounces

I didn't remember that it was potassium citrate, and I know you have mentioned that. I would mix the granules with a little bit of water to make a gravy and mixed that with her food. It worked wonders, she never had crystals again, and we used it for years.

Thank you for your support and input on our thread, you're a doll Sharlene. Thanks for always being there for us.

Hugs,
Tina and Jasper

Hi Sharlene
Just popping in to see if you managed to have the chat with IMS today, hope your working day was not too bad but know your so busy right now, stink!! Hope it lets up soon! xx

Sharlene:
Just wanted to see how work is if it has gotten any better?? Are all the issue with Molly's leg cleared up now? I wish I still had some citrate pill I would send you some to grind up for Molly. I picked up the wrong size Fromm's yesterday I was so tired. I will stop again when I go next week to the Dr. Tired and not feeling well today, my Lupus is affecting my joints terrible and my knees really hurt. Blessings
Patti

Sorry that I can't help with the test results but pleased to hear that little Miss Molly is generally doing well.

I'm a big fan of Fromm - I started Hamish on the reduced activity when he had the tummy upsets from the Blue and the vet wanted to give him Royal Canin GI, and he did really well with it. I'm currently using the puppy food for Henry and I'd be happy to continue however I'm thinking about trying Dr Tims to give him some variety.

Hi all,

I haven't spoken to the IMS yet, I received an email today that she would be available between wed and fri, as she is in clinic the other days. It's going to be tight trying to catch up with her as this is a busy week with me, due to hubs birthday and lots of activities going on.

I think molly's leg is doing okay, she has limped any more on it. Just have to watch her back legs as both are tricky with the knee on one side and the hip on the other. The hip issue is probably what caused the knee issue, she has always favored that hip since she was born.

She is doing okay though, except, today she is having diarrhea again, so back onto the floriflora she goes starting with her dinner. I am trying to do just the SO rotating with maturity, until after the May UPC, so as not to introduce any other elements into that result, but I swear every time I try to just do the SO/Mature, she ends up with gastro upset. It's a losing battle. I definitely want to move to Fromms once this is over with. I spoke with hubs about going to a raw food, but he is adamantly against it, I think because of impurities in the raw meat that might get into her. If I got his complete argument in a nutshell. I decided it wasn't worth the bother of an argument over it. He very seldom chips in on his opinion of what should or shouldn't be done for molly, so I took it that he had stronger views than I do on the issue.

So, now do I continue with trying to stick to the SO/Mature or do I introduce something else and hope it helps to clear up the gastro problem. If she has a gastro upset, as we all know from Jasper and Flynn and Zoe, the likely hood is that the UPC will be higher and I don't want that, I want a clear reflection on the kidneys. ARGGGHHH

Work. Well, it goes along. No one seems to have matured there, that's for sure! hahahaha I'm just going along doing my thing. I think I'm just going to let the chips fall where they may. Some times people hook their carts up to a losing horse and you really can't convince them that they should be hooked to a different one. That is sort of how I feel about some of these issues.

Patti, I am sorry that your Lupus is flaring up. It really can't take any stress at all. :( Hope you can get some rest and get that sorted out.

hugs all,
Sharlene and molly muffin

Hi Sharlene,
Ugh...sorry to hear Molly has a bit of tummy upset. It is so difficult to make changes in anything when you are trying to figure out other matters. :confused:
I was about to finally start Trixie's fish oil caps when we made the change in Vetoryl dosage...so then I wanted to wait until that was all settled.
It's certainly hard to get to a point where everything is status quo and you can start something new or make some type of change in regimen. Glad that it seems the limping is all gone though and I hope this gastro upset will pass quickly. (no pun intended!) Is white rice on the menu tonight for Molly??
Barbara

Oh no, the diarrhea baton has been passed on to Molly!! :eek: (I'm still holding my breath about Peg but she just produced a small but acceptable evening poop for mommy -- good girl).

I agree, it is so darn frustrating to try to limit things to only one change at a time when there is so much that we want to be changing all at once.

Hang in there, OK? Sending "solid" vibes your way!!! ;)
Marianne

Arghhhh messy poops again, shite! Be catching up tonight, I better get going before I get fired!! xx

Oh not again Sharlene, do you know what caused it this time. It is hard to know what to do of change in these circumstances

Not a clue, she was fine this morning. We'll see how she does in the morning since I didn't give her any can SO tonight and dumped the majority back in for some wilderness dry food with just the probiotic on it.

If it's not a once off and continues into tomorrow then I'll look at chicken rice again.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

Not bad poops again??? Oh I bet that little girlie hates when that happens. Were you giving her any of those samples? She has been doing so well. Hope morning brings better news on that front, or should I say back?? It would seem all of these babies have the ability to make us a wreck when we see a bad poop. I never thought I would be so happy over Tippers good poops. Lets see what is a poop expert called?? As many on here would qualify! Get better Miss Molly we can't have royalty making bad poops. Blessings
Patti

I was thinking of something that Glynda said to vetstudent today about cortisol being beneficial too and them feeling better if they have arthritis and it doesn't cause them pain. I wonder how much pain molly would be in without her cortisol being higher.

We don't know the cause of the high cortisol, but we know since birth she has had a bad leg that doesn't slide correctly and probably does cause her pain. I wonder. Would her body naturally have produced higher cortisol levels to negate if she has had some pain most if not all of her life?

Could her producing the cortisol, then cause the liver and adrenals to enlarge and could that constant of a supply of cortisol, perhaps up and down over the years, also cause the nodule tumor on her adrenal gland. I think it was Flynn's IMS, but might have been Snuggs, saying not all nodules or enlargements are tumors. hmmm.. I'm just thinking out loud. See when I write it out like this it doesn't seem very probable.

They keep saying, she might not have cushings (or she might) and if not maybe it is the liver. I don't think they know though and are just guessing and throwing out ideas, sort of like I am here, but hopefully with much better knowledge to back them up. LOL :)

back to regular scheduled programming.
I'm working from home tomorrow but do need to go into the office for hubbys birthday pie. yep, he wants a blueberry pie, so our social committee is providing. We do this for each office staff member and then they pick what they want to have served. I'll be able to keep an eye on molly for most of the day though.

No, I didn't introduce the Fromm food yet, as I wanted her on the same food for the UPC so as to not mess up the results, so I didn't introduce anything other than the regular bland sort of diet. Tonight I switched it up a bit and if her poops are better, tonight or tomorrow morning, then I really am going to suspect that food. This is what I had suspected caused her gastro upset 2 other times and the vet didn't think it would cause that and her need antibiotics, but again, I'm unsure.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

I should add that molly doesn't Feel bad at all. She is at this moment, barking at the french door, because she got her ice cube that she was acting under the door and can't get back to get it, so wants me to come do get it for her.

and I retrieved it for her and she is back to throwing and pouncing on it. Maybe she is part cat???!!!

Sharlene and molly muffin

Hmmm I don't think that sounds very probable either.. the bit about the sore leg causing the high cortisol causing a tumour. But who knows with Molly! Another question for the IMS when you get to have the chat later in the week.

BUT looking for a good poop report tomorrow, I did laugh at Marianne noting Peg had passed the baton on to Molly... these pups can just stop this relay race right now!

Have a nice day at home tomorrow, does hubs work at the same company as you? Tell him I think his math skills are pretty sharp! xx

Sharlene:
Yikes bad poops again?? Did you start her on the chicken and rice? I hope this is
is gone by tomorrow. I am wondering iif the stress from at the IMS? Does she normally react that way after going for a check up? Poor baby, I know how you feel as I think back to that time Tipper could not stop going and it just became liquid squirting out of her. Her poor little bum will be sore. Blessings
Patti

Quote:

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Originally Posted by molly muffin

Would her body naturally have produced higher cortisol levels to negate if she has had some pain most if not all of her life?

---

Any type of chronic illness can cause the adrenal glands to enlarge, this quote is from Dr Peterson's blog:

Quote:

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One would expect a sick dog to have a "stress" response, which would include increased secretion of pituitary ACTH leading to increased cortisol section. With chronic illness and continued stress, bilateral adrenocortical hyperplasia would be an expected finding as cortisol hypersecretion continues.

---

Q & A: Atypical Cushing's Disease in an 11-Month-Old Dog

Hoping Molly's poops get firmer soon.

Hugs, Lori

Molly's poop was better but not where it should be. I bit the bullet and gave her 1/2 of one of the Fromms grain free foods tonight with probiotic on it.

I don't think it was the IMS as that has been a few weeks back now and it would have occurred that day or the next. I'm leaning towards it being the SO food. I wanted her strictly on that so as to get a good accurate UPC but it seems that when I do that, I end up with a gastro upset. We'll see where she is after this food. *sigh* if it isn't one thing it's another.

I didn't end up working from home today, as I decided to go into the office for the whole day today and then work from home completely tomorrow and Friday. Molly was fine and there was someone here with her for most of the day until I returned.

Yes, my husband and I work for the same company. I don't work in his department though, so he isn't directly my supervisor or anything like that, we'd butt heads too much, but we are in the same office. It's very convoluted as any business is I suppose. I didn't start out working for his company, I worked for a different company that became an acquisition of the parent company that hubs works for. I do like popping into his office sometimes though. He has a picture of molly in a heart shaped miniature frame on his desk. It is so cute. On my wall, is a big picture in black and white of the one of molly and I looking at each other.

I don't like the sound of what Patti's IMS told her. I don't know what size Tippers tumor is, but I will be asking about that to my IMS when I speak to her. Today she was in emergency care so we didn't connect. That place is always busy with ER cases. I've heard them taking appointments from people driving for hours to get there. :(

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

Good report on Molly's behavior...barking for her ice cube is an excellent sign that she is feeling good and not too bothered by anything. You have to use this type of thing as a gauge to how they're doing since these dogs are not working much on their English. :D Whenever I am wondering if Trixie is okay I either ask her about a toy or mention the word "bag" (as in-tear one up!) and gauge her reaction...if she pops up with interest I know she's pretty much okay..and then I usually have to play or get the bag and make good on my offer.

Has Molly had any rice to firm up the poops? Usually does the trick for us. Hope on the morning walk things will be back to normal. ;)

Barbara

I am glad Molly's poop is better I hope today it is perfect. She sounds like she is acting well which my vet told me pertaining to Snuggles, how they act are sometimes more important. Praying your little girl continues to improve.

I gave her the Fromm's grain free last night, because I kept suspecting the food and the filler grains in it, even though the vet told me a couple years ago that she didn't think so, and this morning, the most perfect small solid poop immaginable!!! YIPPEEE!

So there you have it. This morning I mixed the Fromm's with a bit of her SO, and this evening we'll try Just Fromm's but a different protein, because all I have is the sample packages right now, and I'll see if my independent pet store has any Fromm canned that I can use with molly for tomorrow morning.

I'm calling the vet to confirm what kind of stones she has had and crystals and we'll take it from there.

Right now I am happy. She had Tons of energy on this mornings walk too. She usually does but if she has a gastro upset, she tends to slow down off and on during the walk and then with the diarrhea for the last two days she go from spot to spot, straining to get all the liquid out. (sorry if that is TMI) today though, none of that, she was pulling me, had her solid poop and then was running down the sidewalk, pulling me along to the next tree to check her mail.

Maybe this isn't the long term answer, but then again, maybe it is, who knows.

hugs all
Sharlene and molly muffin

Sharlene:
I am glad Molly's poop is better. Does she seem to be feeling right? Did you give her the chicken and rice? I know you are in the same boat as me that is why I lean heavily on you for guidance. My thoughts are exactlynthe same as yours. I will wait and see what the next three month ultra sound brings. My vet said he is jot even sure that this thing has changed because it could just be her error on where the probe was. Her tumor is larger than Molly's. It is supposedly 1.35 x
3.23 and was 2.92 I believe. My vet said she may just be scaring you in to this, and maybe not?? Does anyone on here know what the likelihood is of an adrenal tumor rupturing? I think the same as all of you have said,nwhich is the greater risk?? To me the greater risk at this point is surgery. If it begins to grow the rupture may be the greater risk. I did ask her that question, and also if she felt Tipper was in good enough shape to make it thru this operation. She conveniently left those answers out. I think Molly is a little younger, and does not have the health issues Tipper does. I am not sure they could even get a tube in her throat, without more damage to an already bad trachea?? Also I read that it is not only the number of operations the surgeon has done like this, it is how often and how recently they have done this. She also left out the question about how many of these operations the surgeon has done, and what were the consequences, how many dogs did not survive it? She never answered that. When people do not answer things, that is very telling to me. In would ask the surgeon all this anyway, but how do you know what they tell you is true?? They are building an addition on this hospital and have to fund it somehow. That is precisely why I do not like privately owned hospitals, and prefer teaching schools. This is just wearing on me. I am going to talk these things over with Glynda in the next few days, and get her take on all this. I feel for you Sharlene as this is not a good place to be between a rock and a hard place!! Blessings
Patti

She feels fine. No I didn't give her the chicken and rice since the Fromms seemed to do the trick. It is one of the grain free ones, this one is called Beef Frittata Veg, looking at the top 26 ingredients, not one of them is a grain. It made a big difference.

Yes that one is a bit bigger than molly's tumor. I wish I knew the answers for you Patti. :(

I do understand the trachea issue and the heart mummer is a concern too. It's all so bloody hard isn't it.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

Fromms is made near my home in the next town, Mequon. We go past the plant often. I hope it continues to help her. I remember reading about stones in Whole dog Journal but there was another site that talked about foods if you did not want to do prescription, I wonder if it was Dogaware?

Happy almost Friday!

Hey Sharlene, I'm so glad it looks as though Molly has decided to drop the diarrhea baton (and hopefully she won't be passing it on to anybody else ;))...:)

Since you are in the midst of deciding on a new food for her, though, I do want to mention one thing. Just like so many otherwise excellent grain-free products, I just looked at the detailed analysis for the Fromm's sample you gave her, and it is verging on being a high fat food. On their website, if you click on the detailed analysis (it is different from the guaranteed analysis) you will see the profile on a dry matter basis, and this particular food is almost 20% fat.

Here's a quote from Mary Straus' Dogaware article about lowfat diets that explains the fat breakdown more thoroughly:

Quote:

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As a general rule, veterinarians consider diets with less than 10 percent fat on a dry matter basis (less than 17 percent of calories from fat) to be low fat, while diets with 10 to 15 percent fat (17 to 23 percent of calories) are considered moderate fat. Foods with more than 20 percent fat are considered high-fat. A few dogs may need a very low-fat diet, especially if they have hyperlipidemia, or if they react to foods with higher levels of fat.

---

I didn't check the detailed analysis for any of the wet foods, so the fat content may differ. But I just wanted to give you the heads-up that if you are wanting to limit Molly's fat intake, unfortunately fat content may be an issue with many grain-free foods. It may not be an issue for her, but I do want to mention this in case it is. I have spent hours poring over nutritional profiles trying to find an acceptable food for Peg given her history of allergies and pancreatitis. :o

Marianne

Thanks Marianne, you're right. I need to find one that is a lower fat content. I have several samples, so I'll check each one out to see what might work best. I like the ingredients over all, so we'll see, but a pancreatic attack is not something any of us need to deal with!

Thanks for catching that, I didn't think to look even!!!!

huggers
Sharlene and molly muffin

www.dogfoodadvisor.com has all the dry matter fat (and other such info) already computed for most dog foods.

A procedure we've used in rescue for dogs that have small stones is to do a hydropulsion (I believe that's the name) - they basically force water into the bladder and flush it out a few times, washing the stones out. Less invasive than outright surgery... but, still something that needs to be given a good deal of thought.

Tobey had bladder stones and crystals, but I opted to have the stones removed rather than try shrinking them on the SO diet. I really think the only things that make the SO diet 'successful' is the salt content, which encourages drinking water (to flush out the bladder), and the low protein content. The lower protein is because crystals form into stones when they are present in conjunction with a UTI (usually). The lower protein is supposed to limit the ammonia with which struvite stones are formed (along with magnesium and phosphates).

I used to rely a great deal on both dogfoodadvisor.com and dogfoodanalysis.com. However, both sites now continue to carry reviews that are out-of-date and do not reflect more recent formula changes. In the case of dogfoodanalysis, I don't think there are any reviews that are more recent than 2010, and most are even older. And with dogfoodadvisor.com, another problem is that they tend to provide analysis for only one food for each manufacturer, stating that this is "representative." In many cases, this is really inaccurate because there can be huge differences in the profiles of different foods offered under the same brandname.

This has been very disappointing to me, because as I say, I used to rely on these websites quite a bit. I guess the explosion in size of the petfood industry must be largely to blame. It would be impossible for any single site to provide current and comprehensive reviews of all available foods. So these sites may still be useful as far as researching specific product lines in which an owner is interested. But once having selected a label of interest, I strongly encourage people to go directly to the website to examine the current list of ingredients and the nutrient profile. "Guaranteed analysis" is usually always offered. But if you can find a "Nutritional analysis" or "Detailed analysis" in addition, that usually offers even a more accurate portrait of the actual food content. The Guaranteed Analysis gives "minimums" and "maximums," but the more detailed analyses give a more accurate picture of the true and consistent profile of that particular food formulation.

Marianne