Tipper - adrenal tumor/breathing issues

Hi Everyone:
All I can say is it's not even 5oclock and Tipper is hungry. She was never like this on the 30mg. I am thinking she is still uncontrolled. She is going around the floor where it meets the wall looking for crumbs! How she thinks these things up I will never know. When she has gastro symptoms and cannot get outside to eat grass she goes along the edge of the carpet and eats fuzz. I think she is trying to throw up and figures the fuzz will do it. She is being one naughty girl bulldozing things while I am typing this. I don't think I need an ACTH test to tell me what is going on here. Blessings
Patti

Hi Patti,

Was it on 30mg that Tipper's pre number went to .07 and she was having panic attacks during the storms?
I can't remember for use but it's a fine balance sometimes.

hugs,
sharlene and molly muffin

Hi Everyone:
Last nite Tipper was really hungry again, and would not let me alone before her bed time snack. I have to get her weight down she is like a barrel. Sharlene her pre number did go low on the 30 you are right. I am nor sure what to do now. Should I give her 20 in the morning and 5 around 3-4pm or do I go up to 7mg or 8mg on the trilostane part of the dosage instead? I know she is not controlled and I am seriously concerned about damage control here. It seems the last time she was uncontrolled a few weeks ago and now I hear her start with this congestive noises, and sticking her tongue out over and over again. There is some connection between her boing uncontrolled and these things she exhibits. She gets her ACTH on the 16th, but that is a good 2 weeks away, and I am concerned about the damage this cortisol is doing on top of what she already has. I need some opinions here on the best route to take. I am wondering if 20mg Vetoryl in the morning and 10 mg trilostane in the evening would still make her pre number go low since they are not all taken at once?? I am stumped and need some help please. She did sleep ok last nite, but was very noisy and congestive sounding. Also I am wondering what to so about Tipper's ultra sound in October. It will tell if the tumor has grown on her adrenal gland, but if she is not able to have it removed what good does it do to get one? It will just get me even more upset and depressed. She has too many issues to survive this operation so should I put her thru this, and also spend money on an ultra sound I could use the money for her treatment?? I am not sure where to go with this???? Some opinions would help. It is dark here, and supposed to rain, so I hope Tipper does not get upset. Blessings
Patti

I think I would try to get a more even distribution of the Trilo over a 24 hour period. Instead of a big dose in the morning and small dose in the evenings, try to give the same amount both times.

As for the US - that is up to you. I fully understand the quandary over the expense when there is no action you plan to take based on the info it could provide. However, it would let you know how rapidly the tumor is growing and could explain why the Trilo dose is needing to be tweaked so often now. As the tumor grows, she will probably need more and more of the Trilo to control the signs. One of our members, Corky, went to a three times a day dosing (he also had an adrenal tumor that was not operable).

Keep your chin up, Mom. You are doing a fine job!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

I was wondering the same as Leslie...why not an even dosing for Tipper? Splitting the dose evenly morning and evening I think would help. When is Tipper's last big meal? Maybe you can shift her meals slightly later.
I think the even dose is going to help with control...doesn't sound like she's getting enough in the evening to get her through the night.

Barbara

Since her current dose is 30 mg a day, right?, ideally you would split that 15mg am and 15 mg pm - but that would also mean using a compounded Trilo to get the 15mg. You might ask the vet about 10mg 3X a day to avoid the compounding, or go up to 20 2X a day, but that may be too much, I just don't know.

Hi Everyone:
No Tipper was on 30 mg Vetoryl and that is when it made her pre number drop to low at .7 and they said she needs to be on a lower dose, that after a while on the same dose a smaller dose will work. So we tried the 20mg Vetoryl and it was not enough so we got 5 mg trilostane compounded. So her current dose is 25mg 20 of which is Vetoryl and 5 of Trilostane compounded. So it is hard to split 25. Maybe I should do 15 day and 10 at nite?? I would have to give her the second dose earlier than 12 hours though as that is when she gets hungry is between 6-8. She does get a snack at 6pm. She will start looking for her snack at 5-5:30. So I need to have the second dose in her and working before that. She gets her am dose at 7am, and I will have to give her the pm dose at like 4-430 instead of 7 pm. It should be ok as she is already taking 25 at a time, and overlapping it really will do nothing to her except work before she gets hungry. She has already had 30 mg before also. That is the only way of splitting it , unless I would give her 20 and 5 as I don't know if 15 will hold her all day??? I need to get this worked out so maybe I will call Dechra. Blessings
Patti

Hi Everyone:
I called Dechra and went over the scenarios with them. They want me to try 20mg Vetoryl morning and at 4-430 the 5mg Trilo. They want just enough to take the edge off her hunger. If that does not work I have to go to 15/10 split which they think is not as good. She will have to be on either one or the other for three consecutive days before her next ACTH test. It will be easier on me only giving her 2 pills in the morning. It is so expensive to do all these different combinations, but I am not a quitter and I will go on until this is right. I have been trying to live in my bubble and tell myself everything is going ok. That seems to be the only way I can get thru this, as I am worried about this tumor growing. I would give anything or everything in the world I have, if my girl could be healed. Blessings
Patti

Hi Patti,
I have definitely lived in my bubble many times during my life. It is equipped with all the latest technical toys.;):D what I have figured out over the years, is that I have to emerge from it eventually and face the challenge/challenges at hand. If your bubble is what you need to get you through, then stay in it for now. Every once in a while, poke your head out and take stock of where you are, where you realistically can expect to be and how you plan on getting there. Small doses of reality a little at a time. I admire the way that you keep plugging on despite all obstacles. Tipper is very blessed to have you. Xxxxx

I think a split would be good to try. You have the 20 and the 5 now, so wouldn't hurt to get it a go and see if it changes anything.

If you want to know for sure, then you would need to have the ultrasound, about how fast the tumor is growing. If you want to just try and manage the symptoms and react with the dosage changes as needed, then you could go that route also. This is one of those decisions that you'll need to make. I don't think that there is a perfect answer to that question. There are just variables that you need to think about.

I think that what you want is the best quality of life possible for her for as long as she will have, however long that is and we of course all hope that is a very long time.

I don't know if this is necessarily a weight issue, or if it because the adrenal tumor pushes other things out and then with the muscles not being as strong, it makes the stomach look bigger. Just something to think about.

How did the car drive go yesterday? Did Tipper enjoy getting out and about and not ending up at a vets office? do you take Toby and her both for the drive?

Hang in there,
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

The 5mg booster might just do the trick. You're thinking she's not all that controlled so once you get the number from your acth you can re-think the dose. If you need to go up you could do an even number and try and even split if the current plan doesn't help. I get 10mg Vetoryl and 4 compounded Trilostane and give 14mg twice a day, the even split seems to work pretty well for us. I hope you see some positive change when you try 5mg in the afternoon...do you start that tomorrow?


Barbara

Hi Everyone:
Tipper was a little restless last nite before bed time, but she slept fairly well. Still the congestive noise though. and I noticed mucus in her one eye this morning. I had noticed that before when she started this swallowing etc. that she had mucus. I am going to give her one of the allergy pills the IMS told me to use. This is a bad time for allergies with everything falling off the trees etc. I started the 20mg in the morning split today. I will give her the 5mg at 4:00pm and see how it goes.
Sharlene when you said her tumor could be pressing on things and pushing her side out I am not understanding that. Are you saying that these tumors get that large? As I don't know that much about them. Tipper's tumor with was only around 2 centimeters which is much smaller than an eraser on pencil, would it grow that big and that fast in 2 months? This is really scaring me now. I am going to have her Ultra Sound on the 15th. I decided rather that have my vet find someone, I will take her back to the hospital as they have the high resolution scanner. I have called and asked that they put the images on a disk from both scans so that my vet can see them also. That way there will be no funny business going on about the measurements of each scan. Tipper has not been as active as she usually is for about two weeks now. I am deeply concerned about the progression of this disease. She will be 12 on Friday, and I thinks the odds of her making 13 are very questionable form what I am seeing. It will be God's will from now on, and I pray she can be with me a long time even though I have my doubts. I will continue on at full speed to try and defeat this disease. Blessings
Patti

Oh Patti, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to scare you, about that it has grown, just that things sort of move around. Livers that are enlarged tend to push out sometimes. I can't remember if Tippers is enlarged or not, but because they have the muscle weakness and fat redistribution, things just end up looking different and sometimes that is the stomach particularly.

So I rather meant in general not specifically. Like the stomach is weaker, so it doesn't hold everything in place as well as it does normally. This doesn't hurt them, but it makes them look over weight.

Tippers adrenal tumor appears to be relatively small size.

This is all very scary. I agree totally, still Tipper is an amazing dog and has done pretty well over all.

Hang in there and again, so sorry, I didn't mean to scare you so much as to reassure you that it could just be muscle weakness that is contributing to the belly.

hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

Patti,
Buddy's liver was immense. It was so large that it had grown over all his other organs, leaving little room for anything else. His GP vet suspected a tumor. He was sent for an ultra-sound at a emergency vet hospital because they had a high resolution machine and an specialist to interpret the data. My point being that his his little body adapted to accommodate his immense liver and he lived comfortably (for the most part) with it. His suspected pituitary macro-tumor is what finally did him in, not his liver problem. sometimes organs are shifted around accommodate various growths and masses. We have no idea if Tipper's tumor has grown. Having the US done is totally up to you. However, that would be one way to evaluate whether Tipper's tumor has grown and how much. We are not trying to scare you. We just don't know. Xxxxx

Hi Patti... hoping Tipper had a better night last night and not so restless. How was her hunger last night? Did that split dose work? Did the allergy pill help?

Keeping you in my thoughts daily, you are such a trooper for Tipper.

Hi Everyone:
I think the thing I cannot understand is that both the vet and the IMS told me Tipper's liver is not enlarged. I guess I have to attribute her barrel chested appearance to all the muscle gone. I am sure things have shifted around as she is uncomfortable certain ways she lays down. Sharlene I did get scared, but I understand what you meant, so no harm done. I am going to have Tipper's ultra sound as I decided I need to know what this tumor is doing. I am taking her to the hospital to the high resolution US. I have asked that they burn two discs for me, so my vet can view the tumor and give me his measurements also, and he has a friend that does US and I want him to show him the discs and ask him to measure also. I want solid concrete numbers and opinions. I need to know what I am dealing with. Tipper just does not have the appearance of being heavier she is almost up a pound from her usual weight. It came on during the 2 weeks of being uncontrolled. I am trying a little at a time to cut her back even more. yesterday I started the split dose 20/5mg. She was not as bad as the previous days with hunger at nite. I gave her the second dose early at 4:00pm. The only thing I noticed was she was very restless at nite moving all around, and I know what that means. I may have to go to the 27mg or 28 if it continues. I am starting her on the Hawthorne for her heart murmur as soon as it arrives. I have been giving her massages very lightly before bed time to try and relax her. She had quite a few muscle contractions last nite soon after falling asleep. I am giving her the allergy pills and she does not seem to be swallowing what sounds like fluid all the time, it seems to have helped in that regard. There is a definite difference between a regular dry swallow and what she has been doing, I can hear fluid like she drank water when she swallows. It may be some form of post nasal drip or mucus and that is why the sticking the tongue out and licking is happening again. I am either researching something to help her or praying for her in any spare time I get, which is not too much. I got her balloons yesterday and some things for her birthday. I started to cry in the store buying the items. I am so scared I will not get another birthday with her, it just creeps up on me at times. The cashier said " oh are you getting this for your grandchild?" I said " no it's for my dog." She said " I thought you were getting emotional about a grandchilds birthday?" I said " No, but my dog is like a child to me and she is very ill." She said I wish I could be at that party." I am not one for crying in public places, the emotion of all this just swept over me. I pray I can be blessed enough that she lives for another birthday. I made a deal with God and told him if she has her 13 birthday I will be the best person I can for the rest of my life, and help others as much as possible. I hope he takes the deal I offered. I am a little worried about the balloons and her heart, as she gets crazy when she sees them, if she get really nuts I may have to grab her and stop her. Hoping the split dosage gets better tonite, and continues. Blessings
Patti

Patti,

Hoping you and Tipper had a good night last night.

Kathy:
I wanted to send you a special note of thanks because you always keep me going. I get strength from you, and appreciate you help always. Blessings
Patti

From page 166 of Tipper's thread here -

Quote:

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The dosing according to Dr.s Wynne and Fougere is as follows -


Dried herb - 25-300 mg/kg given TID

Infusions and decoctions - 5-30 grams per cup of water, with 1/4-1/2 per 10kg (20lbs) cup of tea given TID

Tincture - 1:2 or 1:3 ratio; 0.5-1.5ml per 10kg 20lbs) given TID and diluted or combined with other herbs. Higher doses may be appropriate if the herb is used singly and is not combined in a formula.

---

If you got the glycerite - that is still considered a tincture so the dosing would be the same. Gycerites are typically not as potent as alcohol tinctures so if you give a bit more, that shouldn't be a problem. But always start with the low end and go up over time if needed. Also, herbs work best when cycled - a few weeks on, then a few days off, then back on....;)

Now to see what I can find on the Rhodiola!

First hit! LOL I don't remember this but here it is! (It's a wonder I remember how to dress myself most days! :D)

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=874

http://www.raysahelian.com/rhodiola.html

Quote:

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Cardiac benefit
Rhodiola capsules decrease the oxygen consumption of myocardium and oxygen consumption index in anesthetic dogs, decrease the coronary artery resistance, but have no marked effect on the coronary artery blood flow. The capsules also have the function of decreasing blood pressure and slowing heart rate. However, rhodiola use in cardiac patients has not been tested and for the time being the benefit of rhodiola in those with heart disease is not known. I personally would not recommend rhodiola to heart patients since it may have stimulating properties.

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http://wendtworthcorgis.wordpress.co...xiety-in-dogs/

Quote:

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Rhodiola Rosea L. is an herb that is known to create a sense of balance and harmony which makes it more difficult for the separation anxiety to set in.

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http://www.animavet.com/rhodiola-tincture.html

There doesn't seem to be much I can find about this herb with dogs online or in my texts so I'll ask the experts and see if they have anything to offer.

Patti--Just wondering if there's a possibility that the restlessness at night could be from the allergy pills? I know often antihistamines can cause drowsiness but they can also cause insomnia and restlessness too, it can go either way. Maybe it's a little of both cortisol and the allergy pills causing Tipper to be antsy over night. Just a thought.

Yes--this warm streak is a big pain. I am just about to close all my windows and put on the a/c.
The sun is streaming in and my place is heating up! I am also anxious for a cold front to return. Here in NY we are forecast for this warmth through the weekend. :mad:
Hope Tipper has a good day!

You are most welcome Patti.:)

Since you are concerned about Tipper getting too excited when she sees the balloons, how about giving her only a couple and see what happens. You can always blow up more depending on how it goes. Please remember that Toby would like to be included, though separate. I'm sure he would like a few balloons too, in a different room of course.;) xxxx

Hi Everyone:
I think you could be onto something Barbara, it may be the meds. Kathy I forgot, I wanted to tell you when you said Rosie was making noises about her teeth and I think you said Buddy never did. Well the terriers are one of, if not the toughest breed there is so Buddy would have never cried over that. It makes me realize how bad off he was as the end to cry in pain, as terriers seldom if ever do that. You really did do the best thing for your precious baby, now I hope sometime you heart will heal. You know when Tipper went after Toby as scared as he was he came right back at her, which only served to infuriate Tipper. These terriers are a crazy bunch. Blessings
Patti

Hi Everyone:
Well Tipper and I slept fairly well as it was cooler last nite and we were both tired. She was up before dawn so she has already walked. She did not move around the bed last nite too much and was in one place for the most part. It was her second day of the split dose. I am hoping that this is the answer. It was too warm yesterday for her outside on the porch so she wanted in right away. She was not real hungry last nite either. I took her for her blood pressure and weight yesterday morning. The BP was up a tad I think because she was worked up getting into the car. It was not high though at 140, but her normal is 130. After all this watching everything I give her and walking her more she gained 1 ounce. Can you believe it? I am really frustrated with the weight! Well I got her cake out of the freezer as tomorrow is her big day. It brings a lot of joy and sadness at the same time. Blessings
Patti

Well Yay !! - Both had a good nights sleep. That's wonderful news.

Maybe things are settling down Patti for both you and I... here's hoping we have at least a few good days. I think we deserve it.

Link I was given on Rhodiola for you -

http://cms.herbalgram.org/herbalgram...bdb2daa6fd746b

And a comment from our nutritional consultant/herbalist -

Quote:

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I don't think of rhodiola as a first line go-to herb for dogs with cardiovascular issues but I have used it, always after a core protocol is in place (especially for anti-arrhythmic action). Rhodiola is a cooling adaptogen and very safe; it has multiple benefits and I might think to add it in cases of, say. CHF. I am using it in tandem with controlled protein diet for some cases of ADD, with very promising results.

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Well I don't want to jinx anything but it sounds like the split might be having some positive effects already. If you get another 2 nights like this I think you can call it a success.
I wouldn't worry about the blood pressure because Tipper has had so many vet visits recently so I'm sure she was a little stressed when she was in the car, and that could account for it. Besides it's still good even at 140!
Can't wait to hear how she enjoys her birthday balloons! She deserves a good popping session after all she's been through lately! :D
I was just on the phone with my friend from Pittsburgh and she said they were having a lightening storm...I hope you not getting it Patti!!
Hoping Tipper has another good night with a restful sleep. She's got to have a good snooze so she has plenty of energy for her big day tomorrow! :D

Barbara

Patti,
Daisy also does much better when she has the Trilogy twice a day. This could be the key:'(Her IMS won't prescribe is any other way.

Hi Everyone:
Today my girl is 12. I can hardly believe it, it seems like yesterday I was training her as a puppy. The years have flown by. I am going to do all things that Tipper wants to do today, since it is her day. I hope I can do her video and pictures without crying, as I woke up this morning and it just started. Tipper had another good nite. I have made another change in her routine also. I am saving more of her dog food allowance for her snack at bedtime. I think that helps fill her up more and she is less inclined to want food. She was ok with the food last nite, no real hunger issues. I think maybe this split is working on her Barbara like you said I will see in a few more days. We did get the lightening storm yesterday Barbara, Tipper of course ran in the closet. It did not last long thank goodness. It is a shame, but I have told no one but my friends on here that I am having a birthday party for Tipper. So many people disapprove of things I do with her now, so I don't need anything negative today. I am happy she made it this far, but sad that the journey is getting shorter for us. I pray that she is here to celebrate 13. Blessings
Patti

Happy 12th Birthday, Tipper!

Hope you have lots of cake and balloons to pop and neat new toys to play with!

And NEXT year we will do this all over again!

POP!

POP!

POP!

The Happiest of Birthdays Tipper

Happy Birthday Tipper !! Have fun with Mommy today.

Mommy have lots of fun with Tipper.... a great day for sure :)

happy birthday tipper!!!!!!!

Patti, I wish you the most wonderful day with your girl!

HAPPY 12TH BIRTHDAY TIPPER!!!

Love and hugs,
Tina and Jasper xo

Happy birthday Tipper!

Well Patti, you Made it!! Congratulations!! Photos please!!:):):p

Happy 12th Birthday Tipper!! xxxx

HAPPY 12TH BIRTHDAY TIPPER!!!!!!!!!!



I agree lets do it again next year :D