Have I finally found my friends? (Palmer has crossed over the Bridge)

Hi Susan,

First of all, congrats on the new puppy! :) I'm sure it will be an exiting couple of weeks/months till she comes home to you and your family.

Like Marianne, I was at least surprised that the little thing would go to a trainer first. Was that your idea? The breeders? And could you tell me what the benefits are supposed to be? In my opinion, a 2 week training for a puppy that young, will not give you a trained puppy :) It may learn sit and stay...but the hardest part of raising a pup is definately in the months ahead, not those first 2 weeks :) Sit and stay are things you can easily learn the puppy yourself...so I can't help but wonder what the benefits would be? I know what the downside would be. Not having the pup during the most critical weeks of her life, having the pup go through one extra (in my opinion unneccesary) transition in her oh so young life (from breeder to trainer and then to you).

So it might help a lot if I understand what the reasoning behind this decission is :)

Saskia and Yunah :)

ps is there a website of this breeder?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Palmer's Mom

Thanks for speaking your mind.........all help is welcome. I'll take what I want and leave the rest. :)
-Susan

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And that's just the way it should be -- that you take only what seems helpful to you. I did (and continue) to feel hesitant to write about this since I have no personal expertise in training. But I do feel ("hope" because I am a slow learner!) that I have learned many valuable things from one of my best friends who IS a trainer and has had the pleasure of owning national obedience champions. She lives far away so has coached us from afar with our pups. But she has always stressed the importance of that early "window of opportunity" in terms of bonding.

What she has also suggested is that it's best to approach formal training in those early weeks in "snippets" -- very time-limited periods interspersed with lots of free play. It's great to work on some specific skills (as Saskia says, things like "sit" and "stay"). But mainly the puppy is adapting to her new pack and the general rules of the household where she'll be spending the rest of her life.

One thing that I've always taken to heart (and is the reason why I left that first class) is my friend's suggestion that the manner in which the earliest training is approached will shape a dog's receptiveness to learning for the rest of her life. If it is initially fun and a mental game, the dog will always want to learn more. This is perhaps more of an issue for someone who is wanting to actually train a dog for service work or for competitive obedience or agility. But I've still felt it made sense even for my pets. Plus, I am living proof that it is the owner who really needs to be trained alongside the dog :p! At my first-ever puppy class, I was stunned to discover how much unwanted behavior I was inadvertently reinforcing!! :eek:

Now, having said all this, I promise to shut up. Without any doubt, I know that you will have investigated this arrangment to your own satisfaction. And if you choose to proceed, it is because you feel it is a positive and worthy option. Thank you for listening to my thoughts along the path to your decision!

Marianne

Hi Susan,

I just wanted to say that I agree with everything Marianne and Saskia have said and I also have the same questions Saskia has about the breeder. Being in rescue, I'd personally like to put designer dog breeders out of business for any number of reasons but mostly because millions of designer dogs die in shelters every year. I've tried to figure out what motivates people to breed mixes besides the money and I come up with a big fat zero. That makes your breeder suspect and this two week training your breeder is recommending is more than suspect and in my opinion, a really, really bad idea. I can't imagine any reputable breeder suggesting that you take a puppy away from it's mother and the only home it's known for 12 weeks of his short life to go bond with a total stranger and then two weeks later traumatize him yet again. I certainly hope that you have not agreed to pay for this.

Susan, what we have to say may not carry a lot of weight but before you commit to doing this to your puppy, please make a few calls and talk to professional trainers or behaviorists and ask them if this is such a good idea and please share what you find out.

Glynda

Susan,

Very glad you are going to have a new one.

What I want to add to this mix is our experience with Talos.

We saw a picture of an eight week old pup and when we went to collect him he was according to our Dr. one year.

He is loving but also fearful. He barks at strangers and if Vandy and I raise our voices for any reason or if there is a loud unexpected noise he hides.

The first time I had to leave for several days he destroyed part of a wall, this was after he had been part of our home for several months. That is the only episode of destruction.

He is the first one I have had who was not a new pup. I agree with everyone who thinks the pattern of how they perceive the world is set early on.

Scott

Oh geez........here's the site.....http://smeragliaschnoodles.com/ . You can read all about the puppy prep school on there.

I appreciate everyone's feedback-truly. I just have spent hours and hours looking for a schnoodle. I have talked to these people.....well-mostly email...but there were a couple of phone calls. I had a "bad" experience with a kennel in Minnesota-or was it Wisconsin?
That woman never answered my emails until I wrote the last one which said I had emailed her 3 times before and I thought she might consider taking off her site the statement that she wanted folks to email. She then proceeded to tell me I was not good enough for one of her puppies. :mad::mad::mad:(And that is the very short version of what she had to say!!)

I don't really want to miss those two weeks. I'd like the little gal now.....but I know she needs her mommy now. I also was concerned about the transition to the trainer and then to us. Poor little pup needs as much stability as I can give her.

The breeder did not propose it to me...I just read about it on their site and at the time it made a lot of sense. The only issue I have with the breeder is that they require payment in full at birth if you want to "save" the tail. Otherwise they get docked. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

My husband is agreeing to this because I want it - he loves me. If it were up to him I think there might not be another pet. I made it real clear before Palmer left us that there WAS going to be another dog. Those were the same circumstances under which we got Palmer - he did it because I wanted it. He never related to Palmer a whole lot. He loved Palmer but did not play with him or interact with him other than taking Palmer for walks. Palmer was mostly "my" dog. He lacked patience with Palmer. He did play a big part in treating Palmer's cushings. It took both of us to get those pills into Palmer. :eek: I tell you all that only to explain that my idea with the puppy prep was, if it worked as they say, that the puppy would have a head start and there would be a shorter time for us in the house training/crate training departments.

I do know that training should be done in 5 - 10 minute increments. I may be blind but I have been impressed with the thoroughness, kindness of this kennel. Since I have spent so much time reading their text, looking at their videos and corresponding with them -and I am sure also because I know I really need/want a doggie to love - this place has seemed like a gift from heaven.

Now-I do want to continue this topic. I just ask that you remember that this little puppy is paid for and there won't be any refunds, barring health issues, since the tail did not get docked. One way or another this puppy is coming here not soon enough. :) So the conversation can continue on trainer vs straight home---although I think you've already convinced me - but it is out of my hands now as to whether I deal with this kennel.

We did try to find a rescue dog and I came up totally empty handed with anything that seemed reputable.....that would be for a schnoodle. All I could find, and I do mean all, were pit bulls or pit bull mixes. I'm not looking for a "designer dog" - we have previously had 2 poodle mixes, were extremely happy with those experiences and the benefit of being non-shedding.

I am grateful that you all are speaking up now. Your experiences are invaluable.
-Susan

Dear Susan,

please don't feel you have to defend yourself and your decissions here, you don't :) I think some of us were simply a bit concerned about the prep school part, nothing else. And I can sure understand, having read the website, how anyone would feel that the prep school would be a good idea :) We know that all you want is the very best for this little girl and every decission is with her best interest in mind, there was never a doubt about that.

Being a dog behaviorist myself, I would not let a puppy go to prep school for any reason. Raising, training a pup is a lot of work that needs dedication and commitment but also is meant to make you laugh out loud at all their silly antics and the trouble they can get in to ;) The fact that a puppy will learn to be in a crate without crying, after it left its mom and siblings, doesn't mean it won't cry when only 2 weeks later it will be rehomed again and it has to adept again to new surroundings and people. So to me, that would not be a reason to opt for prep school. Let the little thing go through all that stress of being seperated from everything she knew, in the safe and warm environment of her forever home, not in an in between home...so she has to face that stress another time, that would be my plea. It will build her confidence in you and will make for a wonderful start of a wonderful relationship :) And she might be one of those pups that transition easily, you don't know ;)

Have a plan ready, discuss it with your husband, so he too knows what to expect :) For example... take her to bed with you but in her own crate. Place the crate beside your bed so whenever she cries, you can just drop your arm into the crate to comfort her (no talking or taking her out of the crate) and so that she knows that she is not alone. That way there won't be a crying puppy downstairs, depriving everyone of their sleep :) This might work well with your husband as well when he knows how things will be like in the days/nights to come once the little thing arrives :)

Don't feel bad, we all know and recognize the need for another furbaby in our lives and how we sometimes have to juggle all the different interests and needs and such. You did well as far as I can tell... It's just that I personally would never opt for prep school but it is, in the end, your decission and I'm okay with that :) As long as you know what your options/alternatives are.

Best of luck,

Saskia and Yunah :)

Susan, I want to "second" everything that Saskia has just written so beautifully!! In no way do I want to tarnish the joy and hope that this little girl will bring into your life. But like Saskia, I am just advocating that you bring her directly home at that 8-9 week mark, right when she is ready to leave her canine family and bond with her forever mom and dad.

I definitely understand why some pre-training sounds appealing. As I continue to age, I recognize that puppy-wrangling has become more physically demanding for me. And you have the added challenge of being in the midst of recovering from your foot surgery. Somehow it seemed a lot easier fifteen years ago to get up in the middle of the night for those puppy potty breaks!! But a huge trade-off is that now I am no longer working. So even though I myself may not have as much energy as I did years ago, I have the luxury of time and attention to devote to a puppy. And it sounds as though that is the case for you, too.

One additional worry that I had at the time that we brought baby Peg home -- just three months after Barkis died -- was whether I was still just too tired and emotionally drained to properly care for a baby puppy. We had not expected to get another dog for several more months when she suddenly became available. But even though there were energy challenges for me, the emotional richness turned out to be just what the doctor ordered. I had no choice but to place my grief in the background and to move Peg's needs into my foreground. This little baby totally focused my attention from the moment I picked her up and we brought her home. I will not lie -- there were plenty of tears of frustration along the way and my coping reserve was already depleted (she seemed to take FOREVER to potty-train - and then we learned the poor little thing had a UTI and probably had all along…). But the daily tears of grief over Barkis ended. And I finally slept again at night. She needed me, just like I needed her. And her needs came first. She truly had come to heal my heart.

Plus, just like Saskia has said, there is such delight at all the loony antics during those first weeks. The learning process happens so quickly in young pups. When I think how long it takes a human baby to mature -- first step, first word...it is astounding how quickly a baby puppy learns and develops. I do think that most of the skills that Little Miss would learn at the trainer's are ones that she will also learn quickly with you. Or at least I hope that will be the case. But she will not be your first puppy. So you already have a sense about all of this stuff.

OK, I'm rambling now. Out of everything I've written, the most important thing is for you to know that, no matter what, I remain excited and joyful about the prospect of Little Miss joining your life! And whatever decisions you end up making will be the best ones for you and your own situation.

Marianne

Saskia - "...you can just drop your arm into the crate to comfort her (no talking or taking her out of the crate) and so that she knows that she is not alone. That way there won't be a crying puppy downstairs, depriving everyone of their sleep :) This might work well with your husband as well when he knows how things will be like in the days/nights to come once the little thing arrives :) "

Saskia-really? If I drop my arm and comfort my husband too, he'll know that he's not alone??? ;););)
(I just could NOT resist that!!:D:D:D
Thank you for your response.

Marianne-
Thank you for your thoughts as well. I guess I am struggling with making this happen. I'm apprehensive about my husband's response. I SO want this to work. I feel a tad guilty following the loss of Palmer with another pet so soon. I am indeed emotionally drained.

I remember when we brought Palmer home, saying to Bob...."I don't remember this part of it," meaning the potty training part. They don't warn you about that as they don't warn you about all that you will feel and go through when that tiny little thing has lived out its life and leaves. :(

Bob has been wonderful, as he always has been, with this foot surgery. He takes me anywhere I need/want to go....which is mostly dr appts. He is doing all the cooking, laundry, fetching and coming to me when he hears me start back downstairs to see if I need help. He has completely understood my struggle with losing Palmer. So the puppy prep school sounded like it might be a way to bypass some of the earlier hassles. I felt that would ease the transition for him.

I like Saskia's suggestion about the crate beside the bed. We have always put the puppy on another floor all by him/herself. Now that I think about it, that's kind of cruel. It also never really worked. I also was concerned that I might miss that "springing puppy" stage...the one where they don't seem to walk or to run, but seem to hop like bunnies....or bounce as if they had springs on their paws.

So-everyone's comments make a lot of sense to me and I will forgo the trainer. Marianne-thank you especially for your last sentence. I guess I knew that, but it was comforting and reassuring to hear. [here's where that "warm heart" icon I think we should have would go.] With the money we will save by not going to prep school we will be able to pay for most of the trip down and back!!:D

Let me tell you about Peaches. Peaches came home around 8-10 weeks. She was the first puppy either of us had had in adulthood. We tried keeping her in the crate and it just was not working. Of course-she was in the dining room and we were upstairs in the bedroom. It never occurred to me how she had recently lost her mom and had spent time in a pet store with who knows how many people handling and poking her. Our neighbors had two huskys. She had raised them from pups and had used a baby pen when they were quite little. She offered us the use of it for Peaches. So off we happily go, with this new to us baby playpen and put it in the dining room and Peaches in it. The barking would not stop. We put the playpen down into the basement. Not only did the barking not stop, but she figured out how to get out of the playpen. When we went down that first morning of the playpen, we opened the door to the basement, there stood Peaches - at the top of the steps. :eek: Then we tried putting the playpen upside down. Peaches got the top (bottom) open and got out of that and was sitting waiting for us at the top of the steps. :eek:Then we put a large juice can on top of the bottom of the pen-which was now the top of it, to try to keep Peaches in. The next morning she was at the top of the steps. :eek: I think it was after that that we moved Peaches to our bedroom.....I think in her own bed.:)

Now I think I'll go look to see if I can find any pictures yet of little miss.
-Susan

Hi Susan,

I just read the posts about a prep school and glad your decision is to do the teaching yourself. Books and the internet are great for suggestions and when they are old enough a good puppy kindergarten class with you there to learn how to teach them worked great for us. We were the ones being trained:D:D.

I found when Maddie first came home as a puppy we just started taking her out when she woke up and after she ate to do her business. This seemed to work great because it didn't take very long and she just knew. Of course there were a few accidents, but this method worked great for us. I was so good as she was older (haha) I could tell her to go potty and poop on command--of course I am sure she had to go anyways!! :)

I am so excited for you--this is a good thing like Marianne said it helps fill that emptiness in a very good way.:):)

Hi Susan,

I, too, am glad the trainer is going to be bypassed. You would miss out on so much and Little Miss would have more adjustments to make right off.

Squirt was only 5 weeks old when I got her and we followed the same schedule as Marie with the potty training - after every time she ate and immediately after she woke up. We also went out at least every 2 hours. Once she had done her business, I would ask, "You through?" and she learned that meant she would get much hugs and loving and a return to the house. That phrase still works today. :p She was completely housebroken by the time most pups are just leaving their moms - Squirt is a very smart girl and eager to please. ;)

I remember once our lawnmower broke and it was several weeks before the back yard got mowed. The grass was higher than Squirt was tall, which really didn't take much, and we were out in back one day when the neighbor across the fence asked if she was in the house. I told him no, she was around somewhere. Then he laughed and said, "There she is! Looks like a rabbit hopping out there!" And sure enough, this little honey-colored fur-ball would bounce up over the grass only to disappear again...over and over, having a blast! Just like she was spring-loaded! :p

Can't wait to see your baby!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always