Leslie;
I feel terrible you both had such a bad nite. I am glad the Dr. knows what to do for her. Take a good rest today sweet Leslie, your babies need you to be well. God Bless you All.
Patti
Printable View
Leslie;
I feel terrible you both had such a bad nite. I am glad the Dr. knows what to do for her. Take a good rest today sweet Leslie, your babies need you to be well. God Bless you All.
Patti
Awww...so sorry to read about such a scary night you had last night. Hope little Squirt will get some relief with the valium tonight. Hopefully that's what will work to keep her calm and able to rest. I'll be crossing my fingers that tonight will be better for both of you.
Barbara
Our Squirt is a rascal!! I remember Terri's IMS recommending SAM-e to Corky for CCD. Found this article about CCD: Canine Cognitive Dysfunction (Senility)Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirt's Mom
Quote from article:Love and hugs, LoriQuote:
Treatments that may help improve cognitive dysfunction (CDS) include selegiline, dietary changes, SAM-e, environmental enrichment, and cerebral perfusion (an improved blood flow to brain cells).
Thanks! Teri and I talked last nite and she reminded me about the Novafit Corky took for this and that made me think of the SAMe Squirt was taking until a few months ago. I wrote to an animal herbalist this afternoon 1) to see if anything in Squirt's tea could be making this worse and 2) to see if the herbalist had any suggestions to offer. Here is what they had to say -
Much of that I simply cannot afford but I will do as much as I can to help my Sweet Bebe.Quote:
CDS is similiar to Alzheimer's in people and 50% of dogs over 10 years begin to show signs of dysfunctions. You did not mention what stage she is in...but you are on the right track and I love what you are giving her. Keep in mind you want to treat her body as a whole so her body can adjust and balance as you nourish her system. Diet change and activity are so effective in slowing down the damaged cells in CDS. A homemade/low protein diet is ideal, a variety of raw vegtables (think variety) experiment with as many as you can (blanch if necessary) also fruits, papaya, blueberries, juice if you need to. Stay low on dense cruciferous vegtables, they contain oxalates that are naturally-occuring substances found in plant leaves, it can effect the digestive, nervous, and urinary systems, oxalic acid is the primary component of kidney stones. Support her with Acidophilus, Colostrum, Omega-3 fatty acids (krill oil ) CQ-10 and powerful antioxidants. Raw goats milk is ideal, containing all the enzymes, pro and pre biotics, high in Caprylic/Linoleic Acid, great for sensitive stomachs and perfect for pets who are lactose intolerant. Find a pet masseuse in your area that will work on her to support her physical and emotional health, ideal to work out the lactic acid build up in her as well as keeping her circulation moving.
You mentioned pain and incontinence, which accompanied by sleepless nights indicates a late stage, given her age as well. Melatonin is excellent for anxiety and will help her relax at night. Lavender Oil is ideal as well, place 2 drops in your hands and work from her shoulders to her tail, using counter clockwise strokes (you want to unwind her : ) always be careful when handling oils, our pets senses are 10 x more acute than ours and if we over do it, they can become sick, rule of thumb is to start slow.
Leslie:
Big hugs for you and Squirty from Tipper and I. We are praying for a good nite for you both. I have been talking to Tipper about when she was a puppy and all through her life's experiences at nite. It seems to calm her and helps her go to sleep. It helps me too remembering all the wonderful things we have done together. God Bless you all.
Patti
Squirt had her tea, 3mg of melatonin and 1/2 of a Valium (1/2 = 1mg) and she has been laying in the closet quite calmly. By this time, she is typically already started on her nightly anxiety sessions so I'm hoping she will get some good rest tonite. I'll let ya'll know how her night went tomorrow!
Thanks as always for being with us - I don't know what we would do without our k9c family.
Hugs,
Leslie and Squirty
Hi Leslie,
I am so sorry to hear about Squirt's latest challenges. I came home with a migraine today. The new school year has started with a BANG with MANY new challenges:eek::eek::eek::eek::o:o. Sending tons of love and healing energy your way. :)I will respond more completely by this weekend. I have many threads to respond to. I have been keeping up with our pup's journeys, but have run out of time and energy to comment much. For that I am sorry. I will get my act together as I care about you all very much. Xxxxxxx
Oh Leslie, I sure hope Squirt has a good night on her valuim, hope she snores a plenty.
I know you were upset Squirt tried to bite the vet but I laughed and smiled so when I read that and wanted to tell Squirt, she is perfectly entitled to tell someone off if she feels like at her age:):)
hugs to you and the babies and Zoe is much calmer tonight too so I just know it will be a good night.:):):) I might just pop a melatonin in her as well;)
Leslie, big hugs and a belly rub for Squirt. She is a darling. I wonder, if the Sam-E had been helping her with this and then since it's been stopped, if that is causing this to now sort of rear it's head. For her age, Squirt is a real trooper and just full of life and personality. I think that's great.
Attitude in spades as I'm errr hmmm sure the vet agrees.
It sounds like the beginning of a more restful evening. I hope that continues throughout the night as I'm sure you both need some rest.
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin
Hoping all of you get some well needed rest tonight. :p xxxx
Awww! Poor Squirt and how scary for you!
Glad she's calmer tonight. You all need the rest.
Oh Leslie, I am so sorry to read that Squirt had such a rough night. It is so worrisome when they are restless and cannot relax all night, and so exhausting for you. I am hoping that the Valium and the other herbal options give her some relief. I hope you are both resting well as I write.
Hugs,
Tina and Jasper
Poor wee Squirt, what an awful night for you both. Sounds like she is already more settled tonight so hope you are both in the land of Nod. A lot of good information in that email from the herbalist, surely something will help her feel better and get the rest she needs in combination with the meds. xx
Leslie:
I though that was so ironic that both Tipper and Squirt go in the closet. I hope you had a better nite, and that Squirt got some much needed rest. Tipper was really tired after the testing yesterday, but was restless last nite. They always act weird after that testing. I am hoping the herbal concoctions will help Squirt. Herbs are wonderful, and I go to them and supplements before drugs if possible. I need to get Tipper on a blood pressure lowering herb with the least side effects. Her blood pressure isn't high, but is not in the lower range it used to be in. She was around 120-130 now she is 130-155. I need to get that down a tad. Any suggestions? Our heat and humidity here are off the charts today. Yesterday it was 96. We are in for the day so I hope the vet calls early with the test results so we can formulate a plan with Dechra to get Tipper controlled. Blessings
Patti
Mornin',
Squirt slept peacefully until around 9pm. I was watching her breath and noticed the rate increasing and the breaths becoming more irregular - sure enough she was waking up and was a bit anxious when she did tho nothing near as bad as the night before. We went out and again she acted scared to be outside but did go in the grass to pee when I carried her out there and stood by her side. When we came back in she wanted in the bed again....and then started her on/off/on cycle. She was becoming more and more anxious so I fixed her about 2 tbs of her turkey food and gave her the other half of the Valium. It took about 2 hours but she did go back to sleep on the bathroom floor. She wasn't as anxious but couldn't settle either for a bit. Around 3:30 she woke me, barking in the bathroom. When I let her out, she went to the front door as if she needed to use the bathroom again so I opened the door. When the solid door opened and only the storm door was closed, she tucked her tail and backed up as if she saw something scary out there. :( I carried her out to the grass again but she wanted nothing to do with outdoors and ran back up the ramp before I could stop her. Once inside, she came straight to the bedroom and peed in the floor. No boogers in here, I guess. :p THEN she was begging for treats. Which she got, of course. ;) But then, as you can probably imagine, my mind went into overdrive thinking about cortisol and whether I should start the Lyso back again. THEN I batted Lyso VS Anipryl around for a few hours. And still have no decision this morning. :rolleyes: However, as my mind was running 90-to-nothing, Squirt got in the bed and went back to sleep and slept until almost 7 this morning. So she is better rested this morning with the medication she getting but mom was too busy watching, worrying, and pondering to follow suit. :D
Hugs,
A tired mom and a rested Queen
Leslie:
Poor little Squirt, and poor you. I bet you are exhausted. I feel so bad for you both. I pray this goes away. Two bad nites in a row is enough to wear you both out. I know you feel so bad, and cannot sleep when this is happening, I know the feeling. Where is my magic wand when I need it?? It doesn't seem the valium has too much of an effect on Squirt. She is like the energizer bunny, she just keeps that energy going. I wish there was something I could do or say to help. I know how much you love Squirt and would do anything for her, but please take care of Leslie too. I ignore myself for Tipper too, so I shouldn't be one giving out that advise! I hope some how this all gets worked out and goes away somewhere for good. Just know when I am awake at nite I think of you both and pray for you. Blessings
Patti
It started light thunder here just a bit ago so everyone except Trinket is doped and I expect all but Squirt to sleep the night away...unless it gets real loud then Brick will pace til it's quiet again. Instead of melatonin tonite, I went with a pretty strong nervine (sedative) tea and 1/2 Valium again. I saved a small amount of her turkey in case she needs the other half later tonite like she did last nite.
If she's gonna have to take pills at night, I've got to revamp her feed transition to make sure I have plenty of cooked stuff for her pills to go in. I just HATE fighting her to get them down her throat; that cannot be of any benefit to her when she is already so distressed. So if I can always have something around that she likes and is apt to eat, that will be best.
Terri and I talked again this morning and I spent some time researching Anipryl VS Novafit - a SAMe product used for CCD. The Novafit is much less expensive with less side effects so I think I'm gonna shop prices then ask Doc to call in a script for some Novafit for Squirt and try it. The Novafit site says it can be given with food so that is a big help.
Hugs,
Leslie and Squirt
:( Sorry to hear you had another bad night.
hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin
Leslie:
We have had severe thunderstorm warnings for the last few hours. I gave Tipper some of the treats that are supposed to calm her down. I have a feeling we may get it tonite. I am so sorry this has to happen to you on top of Squirt having other problems. You are a wonderful mother and I will pray for you both tonite as I know I will be up with Tipper. I hope the storm is not so bad, you don't really need this. Blessings
Patti
Hi Leslie,
I am so sorry. I really feel for you. Buddy had many, many bad nights close to the end. It is so hard when they are up all night and no one gets their needed rest. For me, exhaustion took over and I was just going through the motions of getting by. Sometimes that's all we can do. Prayers and healing energy coming your way that you all get a good nights sleep tonight. I hope the Valium helps as storms are on the way. Not in California, where we desperately need the rain. Go figure. Xxxxx
Hi my dear friend,
I'm glad you decided to go with the Novifit. It really helped Corky in 30 days. He was back to his normal self. He didn't have to take it after that. It really does help CCD.
Love you my dear friend.
Leslie: I so hope Squirt slept last night and the medication helps her restlessness. I know you are exhausted and so worried. You will figure out a way to help her you always do. You are so wonderful and helpful with all on this forum. I know all of us on here are sending you prayers and love. Love, JoAnne
Even tho it thundered for a few hours, we got only a sprinkle of rain. :( No storms, just thunder. :rolleyes:
I got a phone call last nite right around supper time and failed to watch to make sure Squirt ate the food with the half Valium in it and not someone else. They ate about 4:30 - by 5:30 Squirt was a basket cast and Trinket was passed out in the bedroom floor. Trink always goes to the bedroom after eating and starts talking and dancing around asking to get in the bed. She didn't do that last nite. When I put her in bed, she went to her spot, curled up and went back to sleep. No bulldozing, no cuddling, nothing of our normal bedtime routines. Me thinks Miss Squirty spit the Valium out and Trink snagged it. :rolleyes:
So at 5:30 I fixed her a bite of food with another half of Valium - she wouldn't eat she was so upset by then so I had to force it again. :( About 10 minutes later, she ate the food. :rolleyes: At 6:30 she was still antsy so I gave her another dose of the sedative tea and massaged her with Lavender EO. She relaxed and slept until around 9 then was up, hyper-alert and started the on the bed, off the bed, pacing routine....AND she was wanting to eat. She would go to the kitchen like usual during these episodes but rather than make a circle around the room and back down the hall, she would start bouncing on her front legs and barking at me while looking up at the counter where the dog food and treats sit. I was snacking on some chips and she stuck her head in the bag! She's been having more and more accidents in the house but I can't tell if it's cortisol or dementia that is making her do this. She is not shedding abnormally at all. Her belly is getting bigger tho she isn't gaining weight. That could be due to the extra treats she's been getting or the kibble as I'm probably giving her too much. It just doesn't look like enough when I put it in the bowl! :o The rest of her body is getting bonier and bonier. She has lost so much muscle mass over this past year it's unreal. She didn't quite have that desperate look in her eye when she was begging for food last nite but close. She ate her turkey bites this morning and then went to the bathroom because I was slow to put the kibble in her bowl and she didn't seem to care this morning. But last nite, she was hungry. I carried some kibble to the bathroom and she ate it gladly, tho.
Soooo I spent several more hours last nite debating with myself about Anipryl and Lyso. The Anipryl is very expensive - MUCH more than what it costs when we had it compounded in TN when she was first diagnosed. Lyso is much more economical to use. I have 3/4 of a pill left and am debating starting her back on it in the morning to see if this helps with some of the things she is doing...or if it causes the diarrhea to come back.
I am also going to start doing more things with her during the day to try to keep her stimulated and active more during the daytime hoping she will rest better at night. It's been too hot for her to get out for any length of time unless very early in the mornings and our mornings are usually full. But it is supposed to start cooling off tonite and tomorrow so I hope we can start wandering in the field behind the house for a bit in soon. It has gotten scary to carry her in the car for a ride anywhere because she does not want to lay down - she insists on standing and that scares me no end that she will hurt her legs doing that. When we go to the vet, I have to hold her tightly in my lap the whole time.
Having a very geriatric pup presents a harsh dichotomy. On one hand, what a blessing to have her with me this long. On the other hand, it is heart-wrenching to see her fading almost daily.
As you know, I am the reigning Queen of Guilt. Last nite I kept thinking about the Proin. Before the seizure, she had issues, yes, but nothing like what she is going through since that drug did its damage - or rather I LET that drug to its damage. She hasn't been the same since and I don't think she will ever recover what she lost due to Proin. I would give my right arm to be able to go back to last Sept. and tell Doc, "no, thanks" when the Proin was offered. I would rather have ruined carpets, beds and furniture than this.
Sorry but I had to smile when I read the Valium may have been scooped by the wrong patient.
I have notice myself with Keesh, eats well, but the body doesn't look the same anymore. I understand completely about how blessed we are that we have been able to enjoy our pups as long as we have.
I think geriatric dogs as well as people ( at least my mother was) seem to get antsy at night. Keesh paces, nests, and walks back and forth before settling down for the night.
Hopefully Squirt will settle down once you decide what you think is best, and I certainly know you have done the best. Don't feel guilty about the Proin. You didn't know....
Just got off the phone with Doc. He's never heard of Novafit but when I told him what it was being used for he said, "You want some?" :D He's happy to approve a script for her so I'm gonna get some ordered today and hopefully be able to start it next week.
Hey, this doesn't require a script! :D
Leslie:
My God you are having a time of it, worse than me! Poor Squirt, I am glad the vet is giving you something for her. It seems the night is the worst time for Tipper too. It is raining here but no thunder so far. Tipper is ok with the rain. I was up all nite last nite never slept a wink as this vet had me really steamed. I thought of you and Squirt and wondered how things were going. Sorry things are bad for you and Squirt lately. I know what you mean about having a geriatric dog, it is a double edged sword. Watching my Tipper decline is torturous to me, I have a sick feeling all day in my chest and I know I am majorly depressed from all this. You are a wonderful mom and caretaker to those babies, no one could do better than you at this. You deserve a lot of credit for how you persevere. I hope this new medicine makes Squirt feel better. Don't beat yourself up over the Proin. You can't be to blame you were only looking to help her. You can't be accountable for this terrible drug, that fault lies with the manufacturer. It should be outlawed. Hope things go uphill for you, I will be thinking of you both. Have to post now on my thread about my idiot vet, then take Tipper to laser therapy. Blessings
Patti
Leslie, I was looking it up and I only saw where it had to be prescribed. That's interesting... wonder if I can get it here someplace.
Of course searching for anything in Ontario is a days work.
So sorry Leslie. Maybe tonight will be better.I sure hope so. Love, JoAnne
Judi, I got it from Countryside Pet Supply -
http://www.countrysidepet.com/search...vifit&x=35&y=9
You might contact them and see if they ship to Canada and if you will need a script or not. It may be controlled there and not here. ;) My order has already shipped and there was no shipping/handling charge! :cool:
I decided tonite to try a different tack with the Valium. I gave her the teas and a melatonin with supper but am holding the Valium til as late as possible to see if that will get her through the night. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow! :)
It does sound like cushings might be rearing it's ugly head doesn't it. So hard to know. I hope that a bit of lyso would help her to calm down. Now if you start this, are you going to need to go through the ACTH testing with it or use it as the daily maintenance based upon previous?
Well as Queen of guilt, you are allowed only a bit of leeway in the whole Proin issue. This drug should come with warning to vets of potential damage. It doesn't probably because they make money of it for this use.
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Hope you get some cooler weather at your place tomorrow too. We're suppose to drop tonight in temps.
hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin
I would start the maintenance again - same dose (125mg) 2x a week to start. I wouldn't want the cortisol lowered enough to cause her pain level to rise much nor to cause digestive upset. IF the cortisol is even playing a role here. I am seeing things recently that could mean it is rising again - and the flip side is that she is so anxious sometimes and for hours on end her cortisol is going to sky high from that I'm sure. So even if cortisol is causing some of this, is it due to the Cushing's or the stress she is bearing? I told Glynda it may just be wishful thinking because the cortisol is something I know how to attack - the dementia not so much. :(
The sedative tea and melatonin did help her for several hours last nite. She was able to relax and sleep until around 8:30 and when she got up she wasn't as anxious as she has been. We did the up-down-around the house thing for a few hours, then I have her 1/2 a Valium, massaged her with some Lavender EO, and she slept again for a while. I'm not sure how long as I am exhausted and went sound asleep a little after 1am. I woke up around 4am with two little vibrators pressed into my back - her front legs; she was trembling pretty badly. I took her out with the same result - she's terrified out there in the dark :( - and she wouldn't pee or poop. I have given her a small dose of the sedative tea and she is calming a little. She's laying against my leg as I type and I can feel the tremors decreasing.
Terri and I have talked several times since her diagnosis - Corky had this problem too - and she reminded me that with her sight and hearing fading things just aren't the same to her anymore, especially during the dark hours. I have a lamp on my left side that I use to read by at night in bed. I have noticed Squirt acting startled, as if she saw something strange coming at her, and finally put it together with my shadow on the wall. When my shadow moves, she must see something else, something unknown, and it scares her. Outside at nite, the porch light throws light down the ramp and about 2' beyond it. Then there is a dark area to the end of the house where the park security lights take over and it's bright at that end. The lit area at the end of the house is where I've been taking her when it's dark out and that does seem to help her most of the time. Not this morning tho.
She hasn't been this way during the day until this morning and I've wondered why only at nite - it would seem that dementia would be at work 24/7 but it hasn't been that way for her. Maybe I shouldn't have looked that gift horse in the mouth because this morning is the first time she's been anxious. :rolleyes: Maybe I should have given a full Valium last nite instead of half. Maybe I need to put her back on the twice a day melatonin. Maybe I need to switch up the calming herbs more so she doesn't build up a tolerance. So many "maybes".
What I know is that I can't allow her to be so afraid and stressed day in and day out if that is what this morning is telling us is starting to happen. She deserves better. I watched my poor little mom fade to absolutely nothing with Alzheimer's - she reached the point she couldn't eat or drink - her mind just stopped telling her body to survive and slowly, slowly, slowly she faded to nothing. It would have been a blessing to us and especially to her if the laws allowed us to end human suffering but they don't yet. I do have that choice with Squirt tho and will take it if her days are going to hold nothing but anxiety. We couldn't let my mom leave with dignity, while she had a "human worthy life", but I can do that for Squirt. Until this morning, I have felt she still has a "dog worthy life". A major part of me will go with her but that is how it should be. We aren't there yet, tho. I am praying the things we are trying and going to try will help her, praying so hard. Please pray with me. Pray these thing help. Pray we find some relief for her. Pray that I have the courage and strength to do what I must when the time comes. Pray that I am not selfish or blind.
Hugs,
a very distraught mom
My heart, thoughts and prayers are with you. You certainly are brave.
I also found this when searching for it in Canada - NOVIFITŪ Tablets are only available through a licensed veterinarian.
Hi Les,
I don't believe the problem you are seeing in Squirt has anything to do with cushing's. High cortisol can disturb the sleep/wake cycle in a dog but I'm not aware of any cases where symptoms only manifest in the evenings. What you describe are classic symptoms of sundowner syndrome, including the night terrors. I'm sure you've done exhaustive research but I'm including a url below to an informative blog I found that you may not have seen yet.
http://pathwithpaws.com/blog/2010/02...og-what-to-do/
I noticed one of the things it mentioned in the article that Glynda linked is to get rid of the dry food. It seems that this became more evident when you switched them back to dry food. What do you think? I'm also wondering about the eye sight. Did Doc take a look at her eyes when he saw her last?
I think Squirt still has some quality of life to her but this, whatever this is, is making her more scared I think.
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin
Yeah, and this article isn't the first to say no commercial feed so as of today, she is going back on her turkey diet only. I also have Ginko on hand but my mind never even thought about it until I read that article - tho I'm sure it was mentioned in others I've read recently. :rolleyes: It is time for a fresh batch of tea so I'm gonna reformulate that and use some Ginko. It has properties similar to the Anipryl in that is can increase dopamine in the brain.
I am a bit concerned because she hasn't peed this morning. It's been about 12 hours since she peed. I don't find any spots on the floor I've missed but that is still a possibility. She isn't drinking as much as she has been today so far either. I may add some Dandelion to her tea today just in case. She did poop earlier and it was a good poop again.
After she pooped, I carried her out into the field since it was cooler this morning hoping to walk around with her a bit but she was too scared out there. She would either huddle at the gate or huddle on my feet, trembling. So we came back inside and got back in bed where she can touch me, which seems to help her calm down.
I've got to go to the grocery store to get things for her food today and hate to leave her for any reason. But I have to do this.
I'm wondering about her eyesight as well, Leslie. I know you will get it get it sorted out. I remember Terri talking about how Corky would just go stand at the pool and stare. I too think about Corky a lot because sometimes Zoe will go outside and just stand and not move.
I'm so sorry, Leslie, that it has been so hard for you and Squirt. My heart aches as I know how hard yours aches.
I have no words of wisdom just my shoulder to offer and tears to share. I try to find the little happy things every day and focus on those good things I still see in Zoe. I know you do that too with Squirt.
hugs and love
Leslie:
God Bless your heart you are still going at it to find something to help dear Squirt. You remind me of myself in so much as I never ever give up, and neither do you. I pray you can find a solution and that Squirt will have some peace at nite. I am praying for you all when I am awake at nite. God Bless you all.
Patti
I was wondering the same as Addy. I know when Rozee lost most of her sight, she became very clingy (very unlike her for most of her life) She seems to get lost or just stares at walls or doors sometimes, almost like she is trying to see if it they will get out of her way, or trying to figure out what they are or where she is. She will eventually move on or sometimes I just pick her up and she falls asleep in my arms where she feels safe and secure which she never liked before.
It seems she had and still has a very difficult time accepting she is just about blind. We went through a very similar situation when she went deaf.
She too sometimes has tremors or shivering. We don't know if because she is scared, cold or pain. Maybe all three.
Sending you big (((HUGS))) and keeping ya'all in our thoughts and prayers.
Hi Leslie
I am sorry to read you and Squirty have had such restless nights. I also agree about her sight perhaps giving her troubles. A simple test my vet told me about to check that is to throw a cotton ball close to her face across her line of sight and see if she flinches. She should if she can see it. He also said if sight is a concern they definitely will show anxiety when going from a lit house out into the dark as there eyes cannot adjust to the change in brightness.
I hope she has done a nice big pee so you do not have to worry about that and she likes the nice dinner you will make her after your grocery trip :)
You would have to be one of the most unselfish people on this forum, you are always doing what is best for your pups so I will send you strength to continue on your mission to keep Squirt as comfortable as you possibly can, lots of hugs for you today Leslie xxxxx