Molly, 13 yr, shih tzu - lhasa aspo - Molly has passed

Aw sweetie, I am so sorry this has cropped up. Our Molly Moo has certainly been a puzzle from day one, huh? Squirt's eyes clouded and started turning bluish but the vet said that was typical old age eyes. I forgot what he called it but it has to do with the fluids in the eye as the pup ages. But it didn't come on overnight like Molly's did - hers was a gradual progression and she still had vision when she passed. Her iris' were brown but in the right light you could see a blue film over the whole orb. And they did get cloudy.

I hope you find the cause...and I would sure see the specialist if possible before making any treatment decisions, including treating for Cushing's.

I wonder...do they have good vets in Switzerland? ;)

LOL Leslie!

I know, I have concerns about the cushings drugs if not cushings too.

Molly had age appropriate eyes, so you know, an 11 year old, not as bright as they were but still sprakly and her eyesight was good. My vet loves molly's eyes and it's one of those things that people always comment on, how pretty. She was checked over pretty thoroughly by the IMS and eyes were fine then too. SARDS would be almost overnight right? Or could it be gradual like a couple months?

I told hubby last night, if this progresses we'll need to look at options for safety with her. One of the worse will be she won't be able to go to the backyard off leash, as I'd fear her falling into the pool. She would hate that. I hope it doesn't, but this is not a good sign.

Here we are years later and no one has been able to determine where the high cortisol is coming from and now it looks like, it is causing all kinds of problems. We've had 2 IMS. It could be cushings, it might not be cushings, she doesn't look or act like a cushings and her urine is quite concentrate, no over eating, hair/skin fine, pot belly is all and high liver enzymes which we all know have been high way before anyone suggested cushings option and not as high as we have seen even.

I'm flipping out I think because we are no further along than we have been, I don't think, and now we have serious issues due to not finding the source and having a plan.

ARgggghhhhh
hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

Marianne! I just saw your post about the melatonin given during the day and I was giving first thing in the morning. I wonder if this is possible cause, as the test subjects were animals and they displayed death of photocells in the retina.
So no more melatonin during the day at all, as it appears that there is a possibility that on some subjects, light plus melatonin could be detrimental, while at night it would be beneficial.
The question now is whether with discontinuation if this is the cause, whether you would have any regeneration or is this permanent damage.

(this based on the timing alone I think we have to consider)

Thanks again Marrianne! How the heck do you find these things! I was scouring the internet all the time yesterday for some link between any of the 3 factors and eye problems.

HUGS
Sharlene and molly muffin

Spoke with vet and Alkp came down. ALT and GGT raised. Primary concern liver disease. Eyes hoping damage not permanent. Unknown. Expect to consult with IMS and redo ultrasound and see eye specialist.

Good news is UPC normal!!!

Will post more later this was just a prelim art call to tell me what is going on before she leaves on vacation tonight out of country

Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

Oh Sharlene - I just saw your posts. Poor Molly Muffin :(
I can't help with the melatonin and lignans but I didn't notice any change to Hamish's eyes with the SAMe and he took them for around 6 months. I also researched it quite a bit before I gave it to him and don't remember any references to eye issues.

HUGS from Henry and me

I don't think the sam-e contributed to eye problem. In fact it is likely that the sam-e contributed to the ALKP coming down from 1100 to 899, almost 200 points. However, ALKP is not necessarily liver specific as much as the others are. As we have said on here many times, but also as told to me today by my vet.

The ALT went from 225 to 319, which is a big increase. This can increase due to cushings (high cortisol causing leakage, or from bile duct flow)

The GGT went from 12 to 16. Also an increase in a liver specific enzyme, often associated with bile duct flow. So I'll want that gall bladder to be looked at as it could be that there is now more sludge and she needs to be on medication for it.

It is possible that the melatonin given during the day contributed to the eye problem, but I think it is an unknown at this point, only a possibility and we'll need to see what the specialist say. In the mean time I am not giving her any more right now.

On the other hand, the UPC was normal, which makes 2 normal in a row, if we throw out the one that they are almost 100% sure went bad in transport. So that is good.

Her urine specific gravity is perfect at 1.025, so kidneys appear to be working.

I don't have the lab results in hand, as she gave me these over the phone before she caught a flight out of country tonight. Knowing I was being a bit freaky about wanting these results asap. She said copies are already made in molly's file, so I can go pick those up this week.

I've confirmed that I will be able to take a day off work to take molly for her tests, so I'm not worried about that really at this point.

The vet actually didn't think there was loss of vision, but I said I thought there was, since she doesn't currently recognize my husband or instance when he drives up and gets out of the car in the driveway, she will bark at him, even if he is outside the window. She has always known it was him and not barked at him, so there has to be something there along with the weird step activity going up at the front door and the not wanting to be in the window seat looking out so much.

I want to see if that changes at all without the melatonin in her system. I thought even one day had made a difference previously when I didn't give it to her because I was thinking she seemed to be so lethargic from it and that is all I thought it was. Well, maybe that isn't all there was to it.

There are so many things I don't know and I'm just trying to figure it all out as best I can.

Hugs all
Sharlene and molly muffin

Hey Sharlene, I don't know how I stumbled across that article but I agree it is interesting. However, I'm doubtful that the melatonin is the likely culprit re: the eye changes even though the article did make me think that it is probably better to give melatonin at night, anyway, just so as to better correspond with the body's normal circadian rhythm. I had never thought about that before, but may try to mention that to other members in the future.

I can easily imagine the toll this uncertainty about things is taking on you and your husband. But please remember that hindsight is always 20/20, as I know only too well :o. Molly has truly been a diagnostic puzzle every step of the way, and you have done your very best to seek the consultation and provide the care that has seemed safest and most reasonable for her. So I truly hope you will be kind to yourselves no matter what the sources for these problems turn out to be.

Sending you all hugs and my hopes that some clear answers will soon be found!

I did find this study on rats and melatonin

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2377032/

Quote:

---

The results of this study confirm and extend previous reports that melatonin increases the susceptibility of photoreceptors to light-induced cell death in non-pigmented rats. It further suggests that during the dark period, melatonin administration alone (i.e., no HII exposure) to pigmented male rats may have a toxic effect on retinal cells. These results suggest that dietary melatonin, in combination with a brief exposure to high intensity illumination, induces cellular disruption in a small number of photoreceptors. Chronic exposure to natural or artificial light and simultaneous intake of melatonin may potentially contribute to a significant loss of photoreceptor cells in the aging retina.

---

Ugh, wouldn't we have heard more about this as many use the University of Tennesee protocol?

Sharlene and molly muffin

That's what I've been wondering - surely UTK would know about this?

Hi Sharlene,
I'm sorry to read about all you're going thru right now. I can imagine how this is weighing on you and causing distress.

I did find this paragraph on melatonin...this states that it's actually "good" for the eyes..safeguarding against cataracts and other eye afflictions. http://www.drugs.com/npp/melatonin.html (scroll down to ocular diseases)
Also I read the excerpt about the retinal cells in rats that your posts but the clouding would be on the cornea or the lens wouldn't it, not having as much to do with the retina?


Do you notice that her eyes look cloudy, can you see a difference? Has she seemed at all bothered or trying to scratch? Hoping an eye specialist will get to the bottom of this.
I know how worried you must be...hopefully you worries will be put to rest once you can get into that eye specialist.
Sending the positive energy your way!!
Barbara