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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Question about FORTEKOR. Yohnny was prescribed 2,5 mg yesterday by vet bcs he has protien in urine and leaking kidneys. So he has taken two tablets so far. This morning he threw up twice, and the second time he fainted for 2 seconds. I called hospital and the emergency vet said I should stop with Fortekor and that my primary vet will call me on Monday.
Anybody else been prescribed Fortekor or have expereince with this?
They have not checked Yohnnys blood pressure.
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
I didn't know what that drug was so I looked it up....it is a heart medicine so I am confused why it was giving for kidney issues. My Squirt was incontinent and was given a drug called Proin....she reacted badly to it tho I didn't realize it was the medicine until she had a stroke, which I believe was also caused by the Proin. So I wanted to know if Fortekor and Proin were the same drug but they are not. I wouldn't give any more of this to Yohnnie at all as it seems his body does not like it at all. I would want to know more about why that drug was chosen, if he does have a heart issue as well as kidney issue, and have his BP checked because high BP will have a detrimental effect on the kidneys.
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Squirt's Mom
I didn't know what that drug was so I looked it up....it is a heart medicine so I am confused why it was giving for kidney issues.
Me too! She said it was prescribed for the "protein in the urine, which might be due to high blood pressure."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Squirt's Mom
I didn't know what that drug was so I looked it up....it is a heart medicine so I am confused why it was giving for kidney issues. My Squirt was incontinent and was given a drug called Proin....she reacted badly to it tho I didn't realize it was the medicine until she had a stroke, which I believe was also caused by the Proin.
That is so scary. How is Squirt doing now?
QUOTE=Squirt's Mom;211753] I wouldn't give any more of this to Yohnnie at all as it seems his body does not like it at all. I would want to know more about why that drug was chosen, if he does have a heart issue as well as kidney issue, and have his BP checked because high BP will have a detrimental effect on the kidneys.[/QUOTE]
He does not have heart issues. But BP has not been checked so will put this on the list of things to ask for.
Thank you!
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
My beloved Squirt passed in 2014 from simple old age, nothing to do with Cushing's. She was a little over 16 years old.
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Hi again! I wanted to stop by and add some clarification about the Fortekor (benazepril). It’s among a class of medications known as ace inhibitors, and we’ve seen it prescribed both for high blood pressure and also to help stabilize proteinuria in dogs. I don’t know how it actually works in that regard, but we’ve had other dogs here who’ve had it prescribed for that reason. I think that in many cases, the dogs have also been diagnosed with high blood pressure, but perhaps not always. Given Yohnny’s fainting spell, however, it makes me wonder whether the medication might have actually dropped his blood pressure or heart rate too low. Ace inhibitors can also elevate potassium levels, and that may have caused a problem for him, too. We’ll see what the vet has to say on Monday. In the meantime, here’s a blurb about its use:
Quote:
Benazepril (brand names: Fortekor®, Lotensin®, Apex®, Benazemav®, Benefortin®, Bexepril®, Nelio®, Prilben®, Vetace®) is an angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) Inhibitor used to treat heart failure, high blood pressure, and various types of kidney diseases such as chronic kidney disease and protein-losing glomerulonephropathies. It may also be useful for treating idiopathic kidney bleeding.
Its use in cats and dogs to treat cardiovascular and kidney disease is ‘off label’ or ‘extra label’.
For the treatment of proteinuria, in addition to an ace inhibitor, other options we’ve seen include supplementation of omega fatty acids and also moderate reduction in dietary protein. But once again, we’ll see what your vet recommends going forward. There are other ace inhibitors besides benazepril, and perhaps an alternative may suit Yohnny better.
And yes, it’s our understanding that both hypertension and proteinuria can be secondary to the effects of Cushing’s, so I’m not sure why the vet is suggesting that they’re not connected. Perhaps she’s just awaiting a confirmatory Cushing’s diagnosis before making that association.
Marianne
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Squirt's Mom
My beloved Squirt passed in 2014 from simple old age, nothing to do with Cushing's. She was a little over 16 years old.
My condolences. I am guessing that is her on your profile pic? She is so cute!
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Hi Marianne and thank you for clarifications.
So proteinuria can be caused by Cushings - but may not necessarily be helped if dog is diagnosed or treated for Cushings?
I am trying to advocate for Yohnny and preparing questions for vet. If you have time could you look at these?
1. Can we check his blood pressure? Especially before giving him a medicine that can bring down blood pressure?
2. What other options are available for treatment of proteinuria? (include supplements/diet)
3. Should we do LDDS test it earlier so we can hopefully can get a diagnosis earlier? (First one was in November)
4. I asked about the ACTH test for Yohnny since you and others have mentioned doing this text too and IMS vet said that one is done when cortisol is low. So she did not seem to think it was an option for Yohnny. Should I ask about this again and if so what shall I say?
5. I know that as little stress as possible is important when doing the LDDS and ACTH test. So I will take Yohnny back and forth to vet (rather than leave him at vet all day) and ask them to do other testing after test or at another date. This is optimal yes? Is there any veterinary paper that writes about this? I would like to have "something" bcs me vet didn't seem to be aware of this.
6. This question is about being a dog mom and trying to do what is best. Just want to hear what you would do. Very few vets in Stockholm are proactive (and I have met a lot of vets) but I did meet one IMS vet that was amazing that took care of Yohnnys brother but she has unfortunately moved out of the country but has recommended an IMS vet for us close to where we live. I am thinking of contacting her for an appointment instead of the vet we saw on the 27th of march. What would you do?
Sorry for all these questions, am having a hard time wrapping my head around this disease even though I am reading through articles. I am feeling lost and in need of both emotional and factual support.
Thank you and hugs
Amanda
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Hi Amanda,
There is no need to apologize for asking questions, that's part of being an excellent advocate for your Yohnny!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jayessi
5. I know that as little stress as possible is important when doing the LDDS and ACTH test. So I will take Yohnny back and forth to vet (rather than leave him at vet all day) and ask them to do other testing after test or at another date. This is optimal yes? Is there any veterinary paper that writes about this? I would like to have "something" bcs me vet didn't seem to be aware of this.
Here are a few that I found, hopefully this is what you're looking for and if not I'll try to find others. :)
Quote:
“Basically, any kind of stress can potentially cause an adrenal response and increase production of corti*costeroids” Dr. Chapman said. So, the acute stress associated with hospitalization and drawing blood can affect the pet’s cortisol levels for the LDDS test, but will not alter the results of the ACTH stimulation test. Patients should be kept as quiet as possible to help reduce the effects of acute stress on LDDS test results.
https://www.americanveterinarian.com...shings-disease
Quote:
To encourage acclimatization and minimize stress, the LDDST routinely was performed after at least 1 day of hospitalization, with no other procedures scheduled during the test.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5980256/
Quote:
The LDDST is more sensitive but also less specific and affected more by stress.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21596349
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jayessi
6. This question is about being a dog mom and trying to do what is best. Just want to hear what you would do. Very few vets in Stockholm are proactive (and I have met a lot of vets) but I did meet one IMS vet that was amazing that took care of Yohnnys brother but she has unfortunately moved out of the country but has recommended an IMS vet for us close to where we live. I am thinking of contacting her for an appointment instead of the vet we saw on the 27th of march. What would you do?
Sorry for all these questions, am having a hard time wrapping my head around this disease even though I am reading through articles. I am feeling lost and in need of both emotional and factual support.
Thank you and hugs
Amanda
Since you felt that this other vet took excellent care of Yohnny's brother, if this were me, I would seek out the IMS she recommended.
Hugs, Lori
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problem
Amanda, I think all of your questions are excellent ones! Lori has given you some very useful quotes re: the LDDS and the effect of stress on that test. As far as the preferability of performing the LDDS vs. the ACTH, I cannot argue with first repeating the LDDS. This is because, of the two tests, it is more likely to produce a positive result if a dog does have Cushing’s. However, if Yohnny *again* tests negative on the LDDS, I’d want to give the ACTH a try since he has so many symptoms that are consistent with the disease. Since the two tests are measuring different aspects of adrenal function, occasionally one will be negative while the other is positive. Here’s a quote by noted endocrinologist, Dr. David Briyette:
Quote:
When interpreting LDDS test results, first evaluate the eight-hour post-dexamethasone administration cortisol concentration. If it is above the reference range, the dog probably has hyperadrenocorticism (false positive results may occur in dogs with nonadrenal illness). If it is within the reference range, either the dog does not have hyperadrenocorticism or there is a 5% to 10% chance that the dog has PDH. (The dog may have early pituitary disease and the pituitary gland is still responding to a pharmacologic dose of dexamethasone by decreasing ACTH production, thereby reducing serum cortisol concentrations.) In those cases, an ACTH stimulation test is warranted.
So as you can see, it’s only a small chance (5 - 10%) that a dog with Cushing’s will test negative on the LDDS, and that’s why the LDDS is preferred by most specialists to be run first. But in Yohnny’s case, if he tests negative again, I’d want to give the ACTH a try. As far as the ACTH and low cortisol, yes, it’s true that the ACTH is the preferred test for Addison’s disease — your vet is right about that.
Regarding Cushing’s and proteinuria: if Cushing’s is the underlying cause, you definitely want to treat the Cushing’s to keep the condition from worsening. However, Cushing’s treatment alone may not resolve the existing proteinuria, so the two conditions may be treated in tandem. We’ve had several dogs here who have received both treatments. One note about that: I mentioned earlier that Ace inhibitors can elevate potassium levels. Vetoryl (trilostane), the medication that you’d undoubtedly use to treat Cushing’s, can also elevate potassium. So when the two medications are prescribed at the same time, you do have to regularly check blood chemistries to make sure that the potassium level isn’t getting too high. But we’ve had dogs here who have done fine with both.
Overall, aside from performing other tests at the same time as the LDDS, I think the steps that the new vet has recommended are reasonable. And who knows, maybe she intends to do the other tests after the LDDS has concluded (drawing additional blood at the end of the test, for instance, and drawing the urine afterwards). If so, that should be fine and shouldn’t affect the LDDS results. But I totally understand why you don’t want to leave any stone unturned. I’d be the same way if Yohnny were my own. If you’d always wonder whether you would have had more confidence in the recommendations of the other vet, and consulting with the other vet is possible, then you may well wish to do so. I definitely suppprt you 100% whichever way you choose to go!
Marianne
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harley PoMMom
Dear Lori! This is great! I totally trust people in this forum, but when talking to a vet I find it can "help" to present stuff other vets have said.
I am so touched that you spent time looking for me. <3
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problem
Quote:
Originally Posted by
labblab
Amanda, I think all of your questions are excellent ones! Lori has given you some very useful quotes re: the LDDS and the effect of stress on that test. As far as the preferability of performing the LDDS vs. the ACTH, I cannot argue with first repeating the LDDS. This is because, of the two tests, it is more likely to produce a positive result if a dog does have Cushing’s. However, if Yohnny *again* tests negative on the LDDS, I’d want to give the ACTH a try since he has so many symptoms that are consistent with the disease. Since the two tests are measuring different aspects of adrenal function, occasionally one will be negative while the other is positive. Here’s a quote by noted endocrinologist, Dr. David Briyette:
So as you can see, it’s only a small chance (5 - 10%) that a dog with Cushing’s will test negative on the LDDS, and that’s why the LDDS is preferred by most specialists to be run first. But in Yohnny’s case, if he tests negative again, I’d want to give the ACTH a try. As far as the ACTH and low cortisol, yes, it’s true that the ACTH is the preferred test for Addison’s disease — your vet is right about that.
Regarding Cushing’s and proteinuria: if Cushing’s is the underlying cause, you definitely want to treat the Cushing’s to keep the condition from worsening. However, Cushing’s treatment alone may not resolve the existing proteinuria, so the two conditions may be treated in tandem. We’ve had several dogs here who have received both treatments. One note about that: I mentioned earlier that Ace inhibitors can elevate potassium levels. Vetoryl (trilostane), the medication that you’d undoubtedly use to treat Cushing’s, can also elevate potassium. So when the two medications are prescribed at the same time, you do have to regularly check blood chemistries to make sure that the potassium level isn’t getting too high. But we’ve had dogs here who have done fine with both.
Overall, aside from performing other tests at the same time as the LDDS, I think the steps that the new vet has recommended are reasonable. And who knows, maybe she intends to do the other tests after the LDDS has concluded (drawing additional blood at the end of the test, for instance, and drawing the urine afterwards). If so, that should be fine and shouldn’t affect the LDDS results. But I totally understand why you don’t want to leave any stone unturned. I’d be the same way if Yohnny were my own. If you’d always wonder whether you would have had more confidence in the recommendations of the other vet, and consulting with the other vet is possible, then you may well wish to do so. I definitely suppprt you 100% whichever way you choose to go!
Marianne
Thank you Marianne. I now understand a little better. And get a little teary that there are such lovely people like you helping me. The quote from Dr. David Briyette is useful, and the other info you have shared. Have a nice Sunday.
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problem
Awww, you're very sweet to say that, Amanda! Over the years, Lori and I have received so much help and support from our members here, ourselves. We're just grateful to have an opportunity to pass on the info we've learned.
Also, I made a typo in my earlier reply. The doctor's name is Dr. David Bruyette, not Briyette. Oops! Anyway, here's a link to an article that he has written about interpretation of the LDDS test, and that's where I got the quote that I gave you earlier.
https://www.dvm360.com/view/clinquiz...n-test-results
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problem
Quote:
Originally Posted by
labblab
Awww, you're very sweet to say that, Amanda! Over the years, Lori and I have received so much help and support from our members here, ourselves. We're just grateful to have an opportunity to pass on the info we've learned.
Also, I made a typo in my earlier reply. The doctor's name is Dr. David Bruyette, not Briyette. Oops! Anyway, here's a link to an article that he has written about interpretation of the LDDS test, and that's where I got the quote that I gave you earlier.
https://www.dvm360.com/view/clinquiz...n-test-results
Excellent! THANK YOU!!!!
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
I do want to share my experience with checking the blood pressure on a dog as my angel Harley did have high blood pressure. What I would do was schedule this procedure when the office didn't have many appointments because Harley would get excited seeing a strange dog. Also I made arrangements with the staff that when we arrived we would be put in a room right away. Harley had anxiety at being at the vets and I believe he suffered from what is known as "white coat effect" meaning that his blood pressure rises at the vet's office.
Once we were in the room, no one would come in that room for about 15 minutes so that I could try to calm him down a bit. When the tech came into the room she would talk very calmly and softly to Harley and they would take 3 readings and get an average from that. Another tip I did was when we were home I would often take his paw in my hand like the tech does when she is taking his BP so he would get accustomed to this kind of handling. Harley took Amlodipine for his BP.
Hugs, Lori
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harley PoMMom
I do want to share my experience with checking the blood pressure on a dog as my angel Harley did have high blood pressure. What I would do was schedule this procedure when the office didn't have many appointments because Harley would get excited seeing a strange dog. Also I made arrangements with the staff that when we arrived we would be put in a room right away. Harley had anxiety at being at the vets and I believe he suffered from what is known as "white coat effect" meaning that his blood pressure rises at the vet's office.
Once we were in the room, no one would come in that room for about 15 minutes so that I could try to calm him down a bit. When the tech came into the room she would talk very calmly and softly to Harley and they would take 3 readings and get an average from that. Another tip I did was when we were home I would often take his paw in my hand like the tech does when she is taking his BP so he would get accustomed to this kind of handling. Harley took Amlodipine for his BP.
Hugs, Lori
hank you Lori, this is so helpful. I am talking to vet today so amd going to ask about checking BP and will ask to have a similiar set-up as your angel Harley. hugs and hugs from Yohnny and I.
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Update after talking with vet:
Vet really wants to give Yohnny something to help his kidney´s as she is worried about irreversible damage to them. She said there are alternatives to Fortekor but they are not as good. She asked me to wait 2-3 days to make sure Yohnny is totally ok and then give him half a tablet (vet had prescribed 1 whole tablet) and see if there is any reaction.
I asked vet if she would be doing the BP test and cysto for protein/creatine after the LDDS test and she said no, they have time in-between the LDDS test to do this. When I asked about the stress this might cause she said that the LDDS tests other kind of stress so it would not be a problem.
I feel totally confused and don't know what to do. Shall I do as vet says? Or say that I am not going to leave him at the hospital but instead come in for each blood draw - and that they do the other test after LDDS text is done?
Not sure if I am being too critical of this vet or if I should trust my gut feeling. also feel like a really lousy avocate. help please.
/Amanda
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Amanda, don’t ever doubt that you are great advocate for Yohnny! Because you *are*!
I’m really sorry the vet is making the testing situation so awkward for you. In reality, probably taking his blood pressure wouldn’t be that big an issue. I’d worry more about the cysto, but it may be the case that even that may not skew his LDDS results significantly. But given all the hurdles you’ve had to confront in terms of a diagnosis, I know you want this test to be as accurate as possible. If it’s not a hardship to you to take Yohnny back again on a second day, perhaps you’d feel comfortable just saying as much to the vet: that you understand that she doesn’t think the test will be compromised, but you want Yohnny to be stressed as little as possible after all that he’s been through. Therefore, you prefer that the diagnostics be spread over two days.
As far as taking him home between the blood draws, you know him the best of anybody. I know several of our members have said that this keeps their dogs as calm as possible. For my own dog, I’m honestly not sure whether or not just leaving her there would not be better. This is because it’s actually the driving to the vet and the coming and the going in-and-out of the waiting room that seem to get her the most agitated. It’s about a 20 minute drive, and she starts pacing and getting anxious in the back of the car just as soon as we start off in that direction. Same thing when we enter the reception area. So in truth, my dog might actually be calmer just taken back and forth between a cage during the day of the test. It’s really hard for me to know. In Yohnny’s case, you know him the best of anyone, though. So whichever way you think he’d be stressed the least amount, that’s the way I’d want to go.
Marianne
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Oh Amanda, YOU are an excellent advocate for Yohnny!! Do not ever doubt that! If this were me, I would insist that no other procedures be done while the LDDS test is being performed. Stress can skew this type of test, as stated in those articles I linked to, and stress can cause blood pressure to rise so doing both of those on the same day, I believe, should not be done. The cysto could possibly be performed after the LDDS test is done.
I also believe that since his LDDS test results were negative the first time that this shows that taking him home in between draws may be a good idea, could be that this is less stressful for him, but only you know him best so go with your gut on this one.
Hugs, Lori
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Quote:
Originally Posted by
labblab
Amanda, don’t ever doubt that you are great advocate for Yohnny! Because you *are*!
I’m really sorry the vet is making the testing situation so awkward for you. In reality, probably taking his blood pressure wouldn’t be that big an issue. I’d worry more about the cysto, but it may be the case that even that may not skew his LDDS results significantly. But given all the hurdles you’ve had to confront in terms of a diagnosis, I know you want this test to be as accurate as possible. If it’s not a hardship to you to take Yohnny back again on a second day, perhaps you’d feel comfortable just saying as much to the vet: that you understand that she doesn’t think the test will be compromised, but you want Yohnny to be stressed as little as possible after all that he’s been through. Therefore, you prefer that the diagnostics be spread over two days.
As far as taking him home between the blood draws, you know him the best of anybody. I know several of our members have said that this keeps their dogs as calm as possible. For my own dog, I’m honestly not sure whether or not just leaving her there would not be better. This is because it’s actually the driving to the vet and the coming and the going in-and-out of the waiting room that seem to get her the most agitated. It’s about a 20 minute drive, and she starts pacing and getting anxious in the back of the car just as soon as we start off in that direction. Same thing when we enter the reception area. So in truth, my dog might actually be calmer just taken back and forth between a cage during the day of the test. It’s really hard for me to know. In Yohnny’s case, you know him the best of anyone, though. So whichever way you think he’d be stressed the least amount, that’s the way I’d want to go.
Marianne
Thank you for your kind words Marianne. I lost it a little after I had talked to the vet. The whole situation just got to me. Now that I have had a good long cry, a nap, some homemade banana cake, and read your email I feel a little better. Really value your thoughts. Will keep you updated. Take care.
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harley PoMMom
Oh Amanda, YOU are an excellent advocate for Yohnny!! Do not ever doubt that! If this were me, I would insist that no other procedures be done while the LDDS test is being performed. Stress can skew this type of test, as stated in those articles I linked to, and stress can cause blood pressure to rise so doing both of those on the same day, I believe, should not be done. The cysto could possibly be performed after the LDDS test is done.
I also believe that since his LDDS test results were negative the first time that this shows that taking him home in between draws may be a good idea, could be that this is less stressful for him, but only you know him best so go with your gut on this one.
Hugs, Lori
Thank you Dear Lori! What you write makes so much sense. It feels so good to be able to ask and vent and be so supported by you. I have some time to thin about it so that is what I will do. Take care. Hugs. Amanda
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
I've been away from things for a few days but have been trying to read and keep up with our sweet Yhonnie. I want to second what Marianne and Lori have said....you are doing a great job being an advocate for him. Trust your gut, stick to what you believe is best for your baby boy, and know you are not alone...we are right by your side even tho you can't see us.
Hugs,
Leslie
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Squirt's Mom
I've been away from things for a few days but have been trying to read and keep up with our sweet Yhonnie. I want to second what Marianne and Lori have said....you are doing a great job being an advocate for him. Trust your gut, stick to what you believe is best for your baby boy, and know you are not alone...we are right by your side even tho you can't see us.
Hugs,
Leslie
Thanks Leslie. Your note means a lot to me.
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Dear Marianne, Lori, Leslie and anyone else who might be reading this post :)
Yohnny did his second LDDS test last week her are results and what vet has diagnosed and prescribed. Just want to check we are on the right path.
LDDS test
Cortisol 274 nmol/l < 120 ulli
Cortisol 4 h 47,5 nmol/l < 40 ulli
Cortisol 8 h 53,2 nmol/l < 40 ulli
Urine
U-Protein/crea quot:
1,7 < 0,5 JEEK
Blood Pressure
Average : 122/50 (75) 121
Sys/Dis (MAP), pulse
Animals position: Lying down on chest
Stresslevel (1-5) : 2
All measurements (minimum 5):
Sys/Dis (MAP), pulse
133/48 (78), 120
124/49 (75), 119
131/46 (76), 117
109/51 (72), 123
112/54 (75), 128
ULTRASOUND GUIDED ASPIRATION OR BIOPSY: 10 ml of urine through cystocentesis without complications
What vet said
Vet discussed results with specialist since the LDDS was only very slightly increased and therefore she did not want to start any treatment risking that values become too low instead. But specialist said there was enough other indications to diagnose Cushings and that there was new findings that dogs with Cushings can have a glomeruli problem (Yohnny has protein in urine) without having high blood pressure.
Next steps
Yohnny has been prescribed 10 mg Vetoryl once a day and a follow-up with urine and blood test in two weeks.
Any thoughts or comments?
THANK YOU!
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Hi Amanda! Given all of Yohnny’s symptoms and the elevated result on this LDDS, I do feel comfortable with the plan to move forward with starting the Vetoryl. I’m not sure whether you’ve ever told us how much Yohnny weighs, but the current recommendation is to follow an initial dosing formula that does not exceed 1 mg. per pound, or 2.2 mg. per kilogram. So as long as the 10 mg. dose falls within that guideline, I do agree that this is the place to start. And performing followup testing in two weeks is perfect.
I don’t know whether the vet mentioned this, but Yohnny’s LDDS result is consistent with the pituitary form of Cushing’s. Also, I know we expressed some concerns about checking the blood pressure and performing the cysto on the same day as the LDDS. Even if they were indeed performed on the same day, given all of Yohnny’s symptoms, I cannot argue with assuming that the elevated LDDS result is accurately pointing towards Cushing’s. So I think you’re on the right path, and I will be so anxious to hear how he responds to the Vetoryl.
Good luck to you both!
Marianne
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Thank you Marianne for getting back so quickly.
He weighs 18lbs (8.2 kg) so it is well below the dosage, which would be 18 mg if I am counting correctly. Vet did not mention but thanks to all the good info in this group I have understood this.
After I talked to vet I read this:
ACTH stimulation monitoring tests are performed between 4 and 6 hours after the morning dose given WITH FOOD. Some vets prefer to perform the test from 2 to 4 hours after the morning dose. Whatever timing a vet chooses, each and every test must be performed at the same time, every time. NEVER fast your dog for this test as results will be invalid.
The 1st ACTH stimulation test should be done 10-14 days after starting treatment. A dose increase is rarely done at this time as cortisol is expected to drift downward over the next few weeks.
Vet did not mention ACTH test in the 2 week follow up. What she did say is that I could collect a urine sample in the morning and that he be fasting in case any blood samples need to be taken. She did not mention anything of the above. I am going to point this out and am also thinking of asking to see the specialist she consulted with instead, as she seems to have had more experience with Cushings.
The BP test and cysto was done after the LDDS test. I asked for this.
/Amanda
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Given Yohnny’s weight, yes, that starting dose is definitely well within the guidelines. So that is good. But also, yes, I encourage you to clarify the planned monitoring testing protocol with your vet. It may be that she’s intending to hold off until the 30-day mark to test the cortisol. Although Dechra officially recommends that the first cortisol test be performed at the 10-14 day mark, some clinicians do wait until a month has passed to do so. Perhaps since Yohnny has been started out on a relatively low dose, that’s what she has in mind. But you’ll definitely want to find out for sure.
You may have read that Dechra has now also endorsed an alternative testing method to the ACTH. It simply involves taking a resting cortisol sample right before the morning dose of Vetoryl is given. In that situation, fasting is OK since the test would be performed ahead of dosing with breakfast. This “pre-pill” testing method is pretty much the norm now in the U.K., and it may also have gained popularity in Sweden. So all in all, you’ll indeed want to clarify what type of testing will be done, and when.
You’re doing such a good job, though, Amanda. Knowing that the cysto and BP check were done after the LDDS gives me even greater confidence in that positive result. So once again, I do think you’re on the right track in terms of treatment.
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Thank you Marianne, for both info and encouragement. I am starting to wrap my head around this a little more and calming down thanks to you and the other who have supported me.
I am pretty sure the vet I am seeing is not familiar with the ACTH test for the 10-14 day check-up and definitely not the pre-pill test because then she would have prepped me for both of these.
But I read up about both of these after she called :( so I have decided to wait with initiating the Vetoryl until I have talked with her again and the plan is clear. Would you agree?
For example, she told me that Yohnny should be fasting "just in case they need to take some blood tests."
Sigh...she has not done a bad job so far...but Yohnny should have the best right? I am really considering changing to the specialist she talked to - or to the specialist I was recommended.
/Amanda
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
You can see what she says when you question her further. Perhaps you’ll feel more comfortable about her plans after that. But if not, that’s reassuring to think you have the option of moving on to one of the specialists.
As far as monitoring bloodwork in addition to the cortisol, it’s true that it’s recommended that basic blood chemistries be routinely checked as well. After starting Vetoryl, checking the levels of potassium and sodium in the body are particularly important because Vetoryl can also lower the level of aldosterone, another adrenal hormone. Aldosterone controls the potassium/sodium balance, so it’s good to make sure that those levels are remaining within normal limits. I don’t know that fasting is necessary for those particular results, but it’s true that you want a dog to be fasted for certain other results on a blood chemistry panel such as cholesterol and glucose. For this reason, it may be best to perform the blood draws for monitoring ACTH stimulation tests and chemistry panels on different days, depending upon which blood chemistries you’re most concerned about monitoring accurately. On the other hand, I believe a pre-pill cortisol test and blood chemistries can both be done on fasted samples.
So yes, I think it makes sense to hold off on starting treatment until you feel comfortable with knowing which vet will be following Yohnny from this point onward, and which testing protocol you’ll be using.
Marianne
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Hello.
Talked to the vet I am seeing.
Her plan is to do only be looking at clinical signs and take a urine test to check the protein (that I will be bringing in with me) when we go see her at the 10-14 day mark of him starting Vetoryl and do ACTH or Pre-Vetoryl Cortisol Monitoring at the 4-week mark instead. Unless I have noticed something that makes me think he is not feeling well - then they may do an ACTH at the 10-14 day mark.
She said this is according to the latest findings and that it takes a while for his body to adjust to cortisol so that is why they wait for the 4-week mark to do test.
Does this sound right to you?
Amanda
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Given the low dose of Vetoryl that Yohnny is starting out on, I personally do feel comfortable with this plan. As I wrote earlier, the formal recommendation is to go ahead and test the cortisol at that two-week mark, but I have indeed seen clinicians hold off until the 30-day mark for the first testing as long as the dog is looking and behaving well. Your vet is correct that the cortisol level can continue to drift downward during the first month of treatment even while a dog remains on the same dose. For this reason, no dosing increases are recommended until after the first 30 days, regardless of the interim results. The earlier test is really one for safety’s sake — to make sure the dose doesn’t need to be lowered. But as I say, since Yohnny is starting off on a very low dose, anyway, I would feel OK with your vet’s plan, especially since she will still be physically examining him earlier. If either you or she think that something looks amiss, you can and should go ahead and test at that time.
Marianne
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Thanks for confirming Marianne. I feel good about moving forward. Will start Yohnny on Vetoryl tomorrow. Hugs and hope you are doing ok in these difficult times, Amanda
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Update on Yohnny May 13
Today he did a check-up after being on 10 mg of Vetoryl for 14 days (he weighs 8.2 kg).
Because of pandemic, I was not allowed in but vet interviewed me outside.
Basically all is well so far. He has not had any adverse reactions. I have not seen any changes to positive or negative.
Vet said heart and lungs sound good, not lowering of the heartbeat.
I have noticed his arthritis has gotten worse and the vet noticed when she did her exams. So he will be back on his painkillers again (Vetrimox).
We go back in 14 days for pre-Vetoryl cortisol test.
His protein urea was down from 1.7 to 1.6. I cannot figure out what number he should have. In a previous test I have, it says 3. Are there different ways of putting a value on protein/creatin?
So I guess all in all so far so good.
Amanda & Yohhny
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
When my Harley had the urine protein:creatinine ratio test (UPC) the reference range was less than 0.5.
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harley PoMMom
When my Harley had the urine protein:creatinine ratio test (UPC) the reference range was less than 0.5.
ok. Thank you. So 1.6 sound very high :(
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Dear friends,
Can someone help Cushing's and proteinuria? I am trying to understand better. it seems that it can be common in dogs with Cushing's and can both be resolved with treatment - and not be resolved. Am I understanding correctly?
Yohnny went in for check-up yesterday after being on 10 mg of Vetoryl for 14 days (he weighs 8.2 kg). His protein urea was down from 1.7 to 1.6. But it still sound high to me. What is your experience?
I read that it is common for dogs with Cushing's disease to have urinary tract infection (UTI). However, because of the immunosuppressive action of excess cortisol, these dogs may not show clinical signs of UTI or have an active urine sediment (1,2). Therefore, a urine culture is recommended in all dogs with newly diagnosed Cushing's syndrome and again at 6-month intervals while on treatment with trilostane or mitotane.
Should I be asking my vet to do this?
2) Because of the renal issues and overt proteinuria, should we address dietary therapy in these dogs?
Do any of you address this with your vet? or are you implementing dietary therapy?
Thanks for input. Amanda & Yohhny❤️
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
With a UPC result of 1.6 I would want to know the GFR (glomerular filtration rate) and have a relatively new test called the SDMA run. Before the SDMA we didn't know the kidneys were in trouble until around 75% of function was lost because what we relied on was the BUN and CREAT. The SDMA tells us much sooner if kidney function is decreasing. The GFR tells us how well the organs are filtering and excreting toxins via the urine. These two things will give you a much better idea of Yhonny's kidney status than the UPC, BUN, and/or CREAT.
To learn about kidney function and the tests used check out the IRIS website - http://www.iris-kidney.com/guidelines/staging.html
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Squirt's Mom
With a UPC result of 1.6 I would want to know the GFR (glomerular filtration rate) and have a relatively new test called the SDMA run. Before the SDMA we didn't know the kidneys were in trouble until around 75% of function was lost because what we relied on was the BUN and CREAT. The SDMA tells us much sooner if kidney function is decreasing. The GFR tells us how well the organs are filtering and excreting toxins via the urine. These two things will give you a much better idea of Yhonny's kidney status than the UPC, BUN, and/or CREAT.
To learn about kidney function and the tests used check out the IRIS website -
http://www.iris-kidney.com/guidelines/staging.html
Thank you! will check out the site. I am so glad they have a new test that helps catch kidney problems earlier. Have had a furbaby with CKD :(
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Hello dear friends!
Yohnny did his Pre-Vetoryl Test this morning. Result was 96. And the protein in his urine is done from 1.6 to 0.9.
He is himself again and much more alert. ❤️ (And he had a haircut-see pic :)
Going back in a month for another PVT.
I think it is time to celebrate a small victory? Right?
/Amanda
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Oh Amanda, yes!! Let’s definitely celebrate your good news! :D:D:D
That’s an excellent result on Yohnny’s Pre-Vetoryl test (around 3.5 ug/dL for our American readers), and all the other news is so good, as well!
Thanks so much for sharing this update with us, and I’ll be hoping that the good news continues from this point onward.
Great job, mom!
Marianne
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Re: Yohnny 11 year old Shih-tzu with Cushing-like problems
Quote:
Originally Posted by
labblab
Oh Amanda, yes!! Let’s definitely celebrate your good news! :D:D:D
That’s an excellent result on Yohnny’s Pre-Vetoryl test (around 3.5 ug/dL for our American readers), and all the other news is so good, as well!
Thanks so much for sharing this update with us, and I’ll be hoping that the good news continues from this point onward.
Great job, mom!
Marianne
YAY! Thanks Marianne. :) Feels really good you have our backs :)