Tipper - adrenal tumor/breathing issues

Franklin's Mum:
First of all thank you for the help. I am so scared Tipper has a large tumor that I cannot sleep. She gets her next ACTH test on October 10th. Both times after having this test she did this behavior. First she put her head down low then to the right and started a circle, her tail wags 100 miles an hour, and then she fell. Her one leg in the back kind of gave way or she put in that way to go down, I don't know which. It only lasts seconds- was behind her so I can't see what her eyes were doing. She is still jumping up on the bed, but I have noticed some reluctance to do so. She is still doing several daily walks for exercise. I felt her back legs and the rock solid muscles she had before have some what diminished. Jack Russells seem to have tiny springs in the back legs and they can spring up and up many times when excited etc. Every once and a while she still does that- maybe when she sees her food is ready to eat. I don't know if it is back leg weakness. Isn't that supposed to subside with treatment? She has been on her Vetoryl for a month now. Prior to that I noticed no weakness, so why would she develop it now??- I might have mis -understood, but I thought the muscle wasting stopped on treatment??? I will have her ears checked again to make sure of no infections. What are the symptoms that usually present when they have a large tumor? If you can give me some examples I can see if she has ever had any episodes of what you tell me. I am so new at this I do not know what to look for. Could the ACTH tests some how cause this? My regular Vet is not real educated about this- I told him she did this and I don't think he knew an answer to it. Anyone I would appreciate input from you, and if you think I should have an MRI done please let me know as I am grasping at straws here. I thank you all in advance for your patience and understanding as I am off the richter scale with this. I just want to proceed correctly and do whatever possible in a timely manner to help my dog live her life out. I am afraid if this is a tumor causing this that that will end her life, if I don't try something. Are these tumors fast growning??

Hi,

Just in case you missed this link in an earlier posting, here is a thread that has been started and maintained by members who's pups developed a macro. Their stories may help you determine if Tipper does fit the profile or not. Without obvious signs, the only way to determine the size of a pituitary tumor is either via MRI or cat scan...and this would need to be performed several times to gauge the growth of the tumor, if any. It can get quite expensive unfortunately. So unless there are strong clues that this is happening with Tipper, this is something I would just keep on the back burner for now.

Macro thread -
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3567

Muscle weakness caused by the cortisol can take some time to resolve. That and hair loss are often the last signs to go away. Trembling can be caused by the Trilo itself; this is listed as one of the side effects of this drug and we have seen it happen here in our Trilo babies. Most of the time, this passes as treatment continues but there are always those pups who cannot handle one drug or the other and have to switch. From the Dechra technical brochure -

Quote:

---

Adverse Reactions:
The most common adverse reactions
reported are poor/reduced appetite,
vomiting, lethargy/dullness, diarrhea,
and weakness

---

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185

You can find much good info in our Helpful Resource Section -
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10

Some pups will react to the ACTH test itself and be "off" for a day or so after but this will pass quickly as the stimulating agent leaves the system.

Hope this helps!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

Squirt's Mom:
Thank you for the help you gave me a lot of good information that I will be checking into.

Keep in touch, 'k? Regardless of what you learn from the vet and testing, you and Tipper are now part of our family. And some of us just might come looking for you if you disappear. ;)

Has anybody heard from her?

Everyone:
I am still here, haven't been on here as much. Sometimes I can't help, it but it depresses me worse than I am, to hear of some of the furbabies passing. Tipper is still holding her own, but she is so fat in the tummy. I thought the Vetoryl would stop that , but it seems she is larger than she was. I do give her Hepato Support and Vitamin E. She will have another ultra sound on Oct. 2nd. I want to see if her liver is enlarging or what is going on. She is on a low fat diet and that is all she gets so I don't think she put weight on- I will get her weighed also. I am going to have the ears checked again to make sure of no infections. I have already spoken about the circles she was doing. I was going to get her an MRI, but don't think I could have radiation, or the operation to remove the tumor, so I am just contemplating my next move. I called and the MRI is 1800-2400.00 so that is a lot of money to spend if you aren't going to do anything with the results. I guess I just don't know what to do at this point. She hasn't had any more macro symptoms since the last ACTH. She has to have another ACTH on Oct. 10th and that is scaring me because of the behavior she does afterward. Just don't know where to go from here. If anyone has any suggestions I am up for them. I hope everyone has a nice weekend with their babies as fall is coming where I live in the Northeast of Ohio. Great sunny, but cool day to walk my Tipper, as she is sensitive now to the hot weather. Thanks you for asking about me.

Hi.
How are Tippers other cushing type symptoms doing?
What has your vet said about the behavior that you have noticed?
When the ACTH test is done, there are quite often various symptoms seen that do not manifest themselves at other times. This is in direct relation to the test. They usually go away in a day or so though according to those who are going through testing right now.
I would mention this to the vet too and see what his and Dr. Petersons take on it is. Really if there is any doctor in the world that you want to have interested in your case, if is your specialist.
I think what you need is a heart to heart talk with your doctors and see what they think.
I know it can be very sad when things are not going well for all our babies on here. It is so very heartbreaking some times, but for myself, I cry it out, sometimes a downright big bawl session even, and then go on to offer whatever support we can. You know we totally understand that some days can be made worse reading everyone's thread and so, I'd suggest that you limit yourself to what you can. Your own thread for example or just a few others. We do not want you to be more upset to come here. We want you to feel supported in whatever decision you make at any given time and to help you if you have questions that someone here might have the answer to.

BIG HUGS, we will all get through this :)
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

Sharlene and Molly:
Thanks for your support. I have days where the crying just comes on me numerous times a day like it will never stop. I have stayed away from my neighborhood in general as they do not understand when I break down, and I don't want to keep explaining my situation to them. I feel like an idiot walking down the street crying. It seems when it is about an animal, people think your behavior is out of line cause "it's only a dog." I live and breath this dog and have for 10 years, so it goes up my spine when someone says that. She is the reason I keep going. She has held me together thru my Lupus ups and downs. So rather than have people try to make you feel bad about crying over your dog I have chosen just to do walks with her and skip the neighborhood chit chat for the time being. Then if I break down, only I see and hear it. I don't know I have a soft spot for all creatures, and always have since childhood. I am hoping against all odds that my Tipper does not have a macro tumor. I pray to God many times a day to take this awful disease from Tipper and heal her. I still believe in miracles, so hopefully this is one miracle I will see in my lifetime. I wouldn't even ask to have my Lupus healed, but I would ask for my dog instead. It is hard to keep this off your mind, even when others tell you to stop thinking about it. How do you turn your mind off? You simply can't. I do try to keep busy, so I don't go crazy with this. When something you love so dearly can be gone in the blink of an eye, it is hard to come to terms with it. If I could have just one wish it would be that this terrible disease was irradicated, and everyone on this forum got their babies healed. I am praying for us all.

Oh sweetie. :( Hugs. I know this is hard. I bet there are some of your neighbors that have dogs too that feel deeply for their own dogs and would be understanding of how upsetting this situation is for you. It would be so helpful to you to have some support people around that you can walk and talk with and who will just share that tear or two with you when needed. Please don't distance yourself from friends and acquaintances. Just do what I do and don't go into the details with those who aren't as empathetic as others. You know, "well, the situation is still very worrying" type answer and share with those who are understand.
I hope you are having a good weekend and sharing a few laughs with Tipper. Just as it can be worrying when they do weird stuff, it can also be funny sometimes, and we have to often find the humor in the worst of times to get through. :)

hugs,
sharlene and molly muffin

:( I know how you are feeling. I am so happy about Boriss's progress. But, in the back of my mind that ugly Macro word pops up & I have to force it out.

It is SO scary to think about. I am trying my best to live in the present with him. It is hard & I have cried myself to sleep a lot. I am sure everyone on this board has done the same at one point or another.

I wish people weren't so insensitive. You just have to ignore the ones that don't understand.
I am glad you have us. I would hate to think you are doing this all alone.

When I am really getting upset about this disease or thinking about the Macro I just pray for God to give me peace.

I hope you have a good day with your baby. :)

hugs

Hey Tipper's mom (aka someone else owned BY a JRT),

BTW, do you have a first name? I feel kind of funny calling you "Tipper's mom" all the time! ;) I haven't checked your thread for awhile and missed that you were having more problems. I do know what you mean about sometimes needing a break from this site as it can sometimes seem overwhelmingly sad. I cry every time I read of a dog lost here whether or not I had the opportunity to connect with their person.

I am not at all familiar with macros and I am not qualified to give you any advice. I can tell you my experience with Alivia, though. She has had two ultrasounds. Neither cost nearly as much as you've been quoted! They were around $500, so if you opt to have one, you may want to consider a road trip to Pittsburgh. Ali had an enlarged right adrenal gland which is "suspicious" for an adrenal tumor. The vets that did the ultrasounds were not in total agreement of their findings and so I really do not know for sure if that is what she has. I considered getting a third opinion, but as her regular vet said, then I would just have to decide who I believed. I KNEW that at her age I would not risk putting her through such a major surgery. So, my point is, you are right to consider what you will do with the information. You kind of have to weigh the definite benefit of having all the information you can to make informed decisions against the negative of putting them through too much unnecessary stress. You are following your heart and so will not make any wrong decisions.

It is 1 1/2 years since Alivia's diagnosis. She is not the same as she was, but neither am I. :p She is an old girl of 14 1/2 and has slowed down dramatically. Hard to see such a change in active JRTs. I have chosen (so far) not to treat Ali with any medications, but that has risks, too. Fortunately, Ali seemed to have gone through a remission for awhile (which makes no logical sense). But, she definitely has symptoms returning again. There are similarities among everyone here, but there are no two stories exactly alike.

You know Tipper better than anyone and you will always act in her best interest. Don't ever doubt that. Accept, though, that there will be changes in Tipper. I think we always think of them as our little babies and forget that they are aging at a much faster rate than we are. :(

Hang in there.

MBK:
Thank you for understanding my situation. It is really hard to see any dog go thru this, but especially JRT's since they are among the most active of dogs. I am handling the changes, but the things associated with a tumor I am terrified of. I live in the country now, and am scared to death of an emergency situation with Tipper, and no vet to help me. There are no animal hospitals close enough for an emergency. That has become my greatest fear that in an emergency I will not be able to get Tipper help. I never knew how wide spread this disease was. It is a shame that there are not more break throughs in the fight against this disease. Most average people are not even aware of it. Makes me wonder just how much is being done on research to help these poor animals. If it were only the Cushings symptoms, I would say Tipper is doing well. It is the other stuff concerning the tumor that is hard to take. She will be 11 on October 4th God willing . My only wish every day is that I can manage her symptoms, and that she could just grow old and go that way. I could handle that better. These dogs do live longer than others, sometimes to the age of 18. Prince Charles had them up to 19 years old. If she were a larger breed that had a short life span, I think that woud be a little easier to take. When you know she could have many more years ahead of her, it is devastating. I feel robbed of the wonderful times that were yet to come with her. I wish they could find a cure for this. It would make a huge impact on animal lovers faced with this situation. I am leaning towards not having Tipper have radiation, or an operation. I think that would be more for me than her, and I cannot see her suffer any more than she already has with this. I need her, but I am not willing to have her suffer thru things like that. I guess everyone on here has that demon to wrestle with. I am sorry to hear Alivia's symptoms are returning. I pray that she continues to do well, and goes into a "remission" again. My name is Patti by the way, sorry I forgot to tell you that. I wish for everyone on here the strength to get thru this with their babies. All we can keep asking for is another day.

Boriss:
Thanks for thinking of me. When I get scared that is all I can do also, is pray to God. I hope some day this disease will no longer take the lives of our babies, and that someone will find a cure. There are far too many people in the same boat as us, and they all deserve our sympathy and respect for fighting this battle with their precious babies. No one on here said it was going to be easy, but I didn't know how extremely draining it would be either. This forum helps so much more than words can say. You can pour out your greatest fears and people come to rescue you. I can't thank everyone on here enough, especially the ones who dedicate the time to help all the newly devastated members. You get on here and you are "shell shocked" not knowing where to turn. The generosity of the members with their time in helping is amazing. I have often thought animal lovers are among the greatest members of society. The compassion you all show daily is admirable. I hope for all of us the strength to fight the fight. I pray for us all.

Hi, Patti.

Nice to meet you. ;) Did I miss something? I am not sure where you got to the macro tumor diagnosis and the fear of that? Sometimes the internet is not a good thing. I know I have had both myself and Alivia diagnosed with some pretty awful things which, fortunately, turned out to be completely wrong! I know when Ali was first diagnosed I watched every move she made and sometimes scared myself to death. I still watch her way more than the average pet owner - I think everyone here does that. We can't help it. Try to just concentrate on what you know to be true and treating that.

This place can be a lifesaver for sure. There are a lot of GOOD people here, with the same concerns. They've certainly helped get me through some bad times with Alivia. There are a lot of ups and downs in the battle against Cushing's. I, too, feel frustrated that there doesn't seem to be much progress being made in its treatment.

Try to focus on enjoying your time with Tipper, as I know you do. If you can manage most of her symptoms, you are doing great!

MBK:
In one of my posts I talked about Tipper going in circles, the wagging of her tail a hundred miles an hour, then sort of falling down on her right rear leg. She has had several episodes of this- even before she was on the Vetoryl. I read the thread on macro tumors and this is one of the symptoms. She also does the pacing, and staring into space. Sometimes it is hard to wake her up. These are all symptoms according to the material on this thread. I don't know what else could cause it except an ear infection, and she was just checked by the vet, but I will have it done again on Tuesday as she gets her sonagram again. She just did it a few minutes ago when I took her outside. It always starts with the tail wagging rapidly. I read somewhere that a vet told someone with a cush dog that the dogs brain stem was being compromised. I am just scared to death of the worst case scenerio. It would make sense that this is what is happening. So she has had 3 episodes in the last 3 weeks. That is why I am thinking macro, and it scares the day lights out of me. Thanks for you help again.

Can you call her out of the circle? I sat with my IMS in her office and tried this with Ella. She circles A LOT. I was SO worried about her having something wrong neurologically! But if I call her name mid circle, she'll stop and look at me and maybe wag her tail at me. She might feel compelled to finish the circle before moving on to something else, but that's just her nerves. It is 100% behavioral for her. Good luck with Tipper! I hope it is just behavioral for her too!

Steph N' Ella:
Has your dog done this prior to the Cushings? What type does she have? Does she start it with the tail wagging rapidly? I could probably try to call her out of it- it last only seconds- she only does it once not repeated circles- then bends her rear leg and sort of falls over. If I can call her out of it- would that necessarily mean it is not neurological? Have you talked to your vet about it? If so what did they say? I am so scared Tipper has a macro tumor that I can barely get thru the day, and I am up most of the night. I would appreciate you help and anbody else that can comment on this. Thank you and God Bless you and your baby.

Ella doesn't have cushings...right now it is just hypothyroid and excessive thirst.

Exactly, if your can distract you dog and get them to stop or pause before they complete the circle, it is just behavioral, not neurological.

Ella does a bunch of repeated circles when she is excited. She also circles when she is in confined spaces. I talked to her breeder who owned her for her first 8 years of life and she said that she could never keep towels or blankets in Ella's kennel b/c she would be all tangled in the by the end of the day. So because she was kept in a kennel most of her life, circling is a nervous behavior.

I suggest that you get Tipper seen by a vet ASAP so that you can work on your worries together. I can hear your worry through your keybord...this is no way for you two to live!

Patti,

I know very little about Macros....but, I do know about JRTs! I do think there are other things that may be causing what you are seeing. First of all JRTs are quirky...if she did something she thought was fun, and especially if it got her mom's attention, she may continue it. In her mind she may have learned a new trick! A second possibility is as the cortisol lowers, she might be feeling an itchiness on her head or face from an allergy or something that the high cortisol had masked. Alivia does this.

I know you are terrified, but concentrate on what you KNOW. The money to see if that's what it is (or NOT) may be well worth it just to ease your mind. We can all drive ourselves crazy with the "what ifs"! It sounds like she is doing pretty well overall and that's a good thing!

Hi Everyone:
Thanks for all the help again. I am a nervous Nelly!! I just wanted to tell everyone Tipper just came from her Ultra Sound. Her liver is not enlarged, and her adrenal glands are returning to a more normal shape. Not there all the way , but headed in the right direction. The Vet is going to talk to Dr. Peterson about the circling Tipper is exhibiting, and see what he says about it. My Vet called Dr. Todd Axlund in Akron- the one who does the surgery thru the neck to remove the tumor. Well I was quite shocked at the info. He said Dr. Axlund said you are only buying the dog another 6 months of life. I could never put Tipper thru such a serious/dangerous operation to extend her life 6 months. I am glad my Vet called. Axlund did not speak too highly of the radiation either. My Vet said if I can call Tipper out of the circle it is cognitive. If not, it could involve the brain stem- that controls breathing etc. He said she is the tuffest little Jack Russell he has ever taken care of, and the most well behaved. I am just going to go along with treatment, as we have been doing, and put the rest in God's hands, as I constantly pray for a miracle for her. I think since this is so expensive, and I am no longer working, I am going to use the money as wisely on her as I can. I think the money right now is better spent on the ACTH, and the meds. Do you agree?? Also, my greatest fear of having an emergency, and no animal hospital less than an hour away, has somewhat diminished. I had a heart to heart with my vet today and told him if he was going to treat Tipper thru all of this, that I would expect him to come to her aid in an emergency- even in the middle of the night. I can't help it I just put it out there, just how I feel. He said he would and I have his cell phone number which I would never abuse. I would only use it in a dire emergency. So I can get there in 10- 15 minutes. So that has taken some worry off of me. Tipper goes on the 10th of October for her next ACTH test. He is going to ask Dr. Petterson why she has done the circling after both tests. I am praying she does not do it this time and that all goes well. I pray for you all and your babies.

It sounds like you are beginning to find a little peace. ;) I know it took me a while to get there as well.
It makes things so much easier with a little less stress off the shoulders.

Patti,

That all sounds good so far! Let's hope it is not a macro and all your worrying about that has been for nothing. That is great that you have your vet's cell phone number in case of emergency! I am sure that is a huge relief for you. Tipper sounds so much like my Alivia! Her doctors always comment on how sweet and well behaved she is and say she is unlike most JRTs. Her IMS says she'd get a JRT if she could get one just like Ali. My Maxwell, on the other hand, is as sweet as can be at home, but can be a handful when I take him anywhere. Ali is always good. There is something about her soulful eyes and beautiful gentle spirit that makes her really special. I think you know exactly what I mean because it sounds as if Tipper is the same.

Anyway, so happy to see you had a good visit and some good news!

MBK:
Thank you for the kindness you always show me. These JRT's are a special breed, and the bond I have with my Tipper is deep. This disease has taken part of my soul, but I will get up every day and fight the fight with my precious girl. I hope Alivia continues to due well, and that maybe she could become symptom free again. The people on this forum all deserve an award for the way they hang in there and battle this disease. God only knows it is not easy!

Hi Everyone:
Hope you are all well, and that your babies continue to improve. It is getting cold here in the North East, and I am glad. Tipper was having a hard time at the end of the summer dealing with the heat. I did read this disease makes them heat sensitive. She had a wonderful walk yesterday, played with her toys, and had an over all good day. Tipper always slept in bed with me, right next to me with her head on the pillow like a person. When she first started with the symptoms, she would go and sleep in her crate. Maybe it was too hot in the bed. I am happy to announce she came to bed last night, and snuggled up right beside me like old times. I was so happy I cried. I never want the feeling of her warmth, and to go away. I continue to pray that she stays on the path she is on, and all goes well. Could anyone tell me the answer to this. Will she stay on the 10mg 2x a day forever- or does this turn into some kind of maintenance dose where it is not given as often- I have seen people talking about this, and don't understand it fully. Thank you all in advance for your help. I am enjoying every second I have with Tipper. It is a blessing that I found this forum, you have all been so helpful and uplifting.

Hi,

So glad to hear that Tipper is back in bed! :) I understand what that means to you because my Squirt did the same thing and it was sooo nice when she wanted back in the bed.

The two drugs used to treat Cushing's work differently and are used differently. The two drugs are Vetoryl (Trilostane) and Mitotane (Lysodren).

The drug Tipper is on, Vetoryl (Trilostane), will be given every day for the rest of her life. The dose will more than likely have to be changed as time passes - this seems to be inherent with this drug...the dose does not remain consistent over time and the pup will probably need a higher or lower dose. With each dose change, an ACTH has to be performed.

With Mitotane (Lysodren), the other choice, the pup goes through what is called a loading phase in which the drug is given twice a day for a short period of time, then there is a short waiting period, and then the pup goes on what is called a maintenance dose that is given 2-4 times a week, not daily. Lysodren seems to require less dose adjustment and therefore less testing.

So this is why you see folks talking about differing dosing schedules - they are using Lysodren, not Trilostane like Tipper.

Hope that helps you understand the difference but if not, keep hollering! :D

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

Leslie:
Thank you so much now I understand the difference. There are just so many things that come up that I would be lost without this forum!

Hello everyone:
It's about that time, that I ask another question!! Tipper takes a split dose of Vetoryl, 10mg morning, 10mg night. For about the last three weeks I noticed when she is sleeping, that she is twitching, her flesh is like rippling on her side, and her leg jerks. I called the 800 # and the rep. at Vetoryl said it is not the medication. Since my Vet is not real well versed on Cushings I am asking you guys what it could be. She does not do this during the day that I have seen. I think I read something about tremors somewhere??? I would appreciate your input on this. Thank you as always. Hope all the babies are having a good day.

I'm very surprised that the rep you spoke with at Dechra said it isn't the drug. Muscle tremors are absolutely a side effect of Vetoryl so the rep is either ignorant of the drug he's supposed know about or he is splitting hairs and defining muscle tics and tremors as two different involuntary muscle movement. We have had many members report that their dogs have muscle tremors/tics, primarily when they are at rest.

HA! I did the same thing...I didn't envision twitches and rippling looking the same as tremors. Twitches and rippling looking like a horse with a fly; tremors looking like weak muscles. :o

lulusmom:
Thank you for confirming my suspicion. I thought it was rather funny that the person I spoke to said Vetoryl does not cause this. Tipper never did this until she went on the Vetoryl. Is there any harm from these tics and tremors? Sometimes when she does it really bad I shake her and wake her up, as it scares me to death. I am wondering if inexperienced people are fielding these calls at Dechra? Otherwise why would someone (Theresa) tell me it was not from the drug? If others are experiencing this, I am surely not the only one who called it in to them!! I don't know what to make of this, as during the call I asked her if the cold weather would affect her circulation or anything else while on this drug, and she said no. Tipper is a walker and loves winter. I never leave her outdoors, but we can be out there in very cold weather for 30-40 minutes walking. To deprive her of this would kill her as when she sees snow, she wants out in it. Is anyone able to address this question? Now I am not trusting in what I am being told by Dechra, and that is not good.

Hi Tippers mom,

My girl is on a break from Vetoryl right now, but I too noticed the tremors and shaking while resting when she has been on Vetoryl. I learned here it was a possible side effect of vetoryl and I also called Dechra and they confirmed it also, so ugh, hate it when there are contradicting stories.

Hope this helps.

tight hugs to you and Tipper. xo Jeanette

Jeanette:
When Tipper goes for her ACTH at 1:00 I am going to ask the vet to call Dechra and find out why they are giving out different answers on these tremors. I hate to take Tipper for this test as she has episodes of the circle behavior afterwards, and it scares me. I am hoping all goes well.

Hi, Tipper's Mom,

I just spent time reading through your whole thread, and hope you're doing okay. I can tell that this whole experience has really rattled you.

Our baby has been tested and examined and scanned backwards, forwards, up and down, with lots of conflicting information, and it's so frustrating. Hang in there. I'm sorry to hear about all that you're going through.

Donna

Donna:
Thank you for your kindness. It truly touches me that everyone is so caring on here. I read your thread also, and you have really been through a lot too. I hope you soon get some definitive answers about Coco. This disease has aged Tipper, and me also. I see changes in her body that sadden me. She has a good quality of life for the time being, or I would not put her thru all this. I worry because I simply cannot do without her! She had another ACTH, bloodwork panel, and urine done today. I guess I will hear the results by Friday. I hope all is good for her sake, and for my sanity. I pray to God to take this horrible disease from her body and heal her. I pray for us all on this forum. Lets' hope you get some answers soon for your baby.

Hoping for all good results on this latest round of test. I know this is so hard on the entire family to go through this.

Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

Sharlene:
Thank you for thinking of my Tipper. I am awaiting the results probably today, at the latest Monday. I read something on hear that troubles me, and maybe you can tell me about this. Trilostane makes macrotumors grow faster?? I did not have an MRI on Tipper, but in my thread talk about my suspicions of this. I am worried now if she does have one that I shouldn't be using the Vetoryl?? There are so many variables with this disease, that it about makes you insane after you read all these things!! You are always second guessing if you are doing the right thing. If anyone can comment on this please do. Thank You all, I will let you know Tipper's results as soon as I get them.

Dear Tipper's Mom,

Here's a link to a reply in another member's thread that starts a conversation there about the risk of treatment causing a pituitary tumor to enlarge more rapidly.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/show...3374#post83374

If you scroll down through the replies there, you'll see that I worried about the same issue with my own Cushpup. Even though the risk may be real, I do believe that treatment decisions must be individualized for every dog, and quality of life factors must be weighed relative to symptoms. It is so hard when there don't seem to be easy answers, but we know that you are doing your best to make Tipper as comfortable as possible even in the midst of so many question marks.

Marianne

Marianne:
Thank you as always for the help. You never really know if you are doing right or wrong, and that is what is so unnerving to me. The vet told me if Tipper had any more circling episodes that she would need an MRI. If there is no cure for this I see no reason to put her through sedation etc. for an MRI. All you can do with the results is get a baseline of how large the tumor is. So what can you really do with that? Nothing, and my feeling is so why subject her to it. I am not so sure I would want to know how long my Tipper has left. It would just haunt me daily, and probably kill me to know. I am having a hard enough time dealing with this. I did however see a dog on YouTube that was doing a circling behavior exactly like what Tipper does and it was from Vestibular disease. I did read that these Cush dogs can get vestibular disease. I am praying it is that and not the macrotumor. I guess that is the only way for me to make it thru the day now is to hang onto the hope that is could be Vestibular Disease. Not that that is not bad in and of itself, but better than macro. It is a shame, but you have to hang onto what glimmer of hope you can, to get thru this. I had a bad episode with Tipper yesterday. Her allergies are acting up. The vet said the cortisol was masking it before. She gets them so bad, she will get raised welts all over, start a high temperature, and sometimes have anaphylaxis. She runs thru the house rubbing and hitting into the walls- it is extremely bad. Luckily I have dealt with this when she was a puppy and know the signs. She was on fire yesterday. I had to call the Vet and Dechra immediately and find out if she could have Benedryl with the Vetoryl. They both said yes. Dechra said only heart medications affect the Vetoryl. I put her in the tub in tepid water, then kept making it cooler. I finally got her under control. She is having a better day today, but still itchy. Does anyone know if these tremors she is doing at night will cause her any harm??? They do wake her up, but then she goes right back to sleep. Just wondering if I should be concerned about them. I try to be proactive and get a jump on things before new problems crop up.

My Cushpup suffered from some unexplained tremors, too, and this is a related reply that I just posted on another thread. Of course, I don't know whether Tipper's tremors are the same as my dog's. But for what it's worth, my dog's episodes seemed to bother me a lot more than they did him. Just as you say, sometimes they would actually jerk him awake when he was sleeping. But he would just ignore them and go right back to sleep. I could never see that they harmed him, but they definitely freaked me out!

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I just wanted to stop by to add a couple of thoughts since my own Cushpup was one who also suffered from weird tremoring episodes. Although I do not believe he was cold or in pain, it looked as though he was shivering across his shoulders. It happened most often when he was resting or even asleep.

In our case, I first noticed the tremors a couple of weeks prior to his Cushing's diagnosis. He was treated several years ago when the protocol called for higher doses of trilostane, and he was indeed started off on a very hefty dose. The tremoring became much more frequent and obvious shortly after starting on the trilo. It remained for a couple of months, but then stopped altogether.

We were never sure as to the cause. As the Dechra rep stated [to you], tremoring is now listed as a possible side effect to treatment. However, I think her answer is correct in that nobody knows whether it is actually caused by the drug itself or whether it is related to some as-yet-unknown mechanism associated with the Cushing's syndrome.

Since my own dog started the tremoring prior to the trilo, I can't solely blame the drug. However, the tremors did worsen right after he started on it. FWIW, his cortisol level was sky-high per his diagnostic ACTH test, and I have always speculated that the tremoring was related to the cortisol level itself -- maybe rapid changes in either direction. I've especially thought this might be true because we have had Lysodren parents report the same thing.

Anyway, I don't think the mechanism is yet understood either by Dechra or anybody else. But I just wanted you to know that other members have reported the same types of experiences.

Marianne

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Hi everyone:
Tipper got her 4th ACTH results and they are as follows:
Pre- 4.6
Post 11.0
She was supposed to have a complete blood panel done- as she does every time she has an ACTH, but the Tech. messed up and forgot to send it. Bummer huh? Had to take Tipper back this morning for a blood pressure check- she gets one every Wed. so they drew blood again. Poor Tipper she has had it for this week. I hope all of you get your babies blood pressure checked weekly- it is extremely important, and I have been told this by 3 different specialists. I have to run in, and hand Tipper immediately to them and they hurry and take her pressure, before she has a chance to start getting anxious. Then I always weigh her. She has lost about 10 ounces in the last 3 weeks. I don't know if that is due to the low fat dog food or the disease. When should I be alarmed about it? She was 17 lbs now 16.6. I will have her blood results probably Friday, and will post them. Other than that she has been eating well, no pilling problems, no bathroom problems, no excessive drinking, or panting. I do notice changes in her body make-up however. She is still walking about a mile every day, and eagerly wants to go. Seems to be sleeping better, except for the tremors. As I said in a previous post my Vet did call the Vet at Dechra about the tremors. The Dechra Vet said that tremors are listed as a side effect, but they are not sure if it is actually the Vetoryl, or possibly joint pain. The cortisol had previously masked any joint pain the dog would have, so in a relaxed state, they could have a twinge of pain, and that could make the tremor or leg jumping. I hope all of your babies are having a better week than the last. It is about 70 today here in the North East and Tipper and I are going to take full advantage of it. God Bless you all and all your babies.