Confused and Overwhelmed-Diagnosed Anal Sac Carcinoma (Woody has passed)

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Originally Posted by goldengirl88

Tracy:
This dog is hilarious and does stuff just like Tipper. Tipper ruins everything she rips it apart. It is so great to see him play like this. I love the end part where he throw it up over his head. Then the look on his face when he is done is priceless. I just wanted to mention that now that I got a look at his whole body, I am suspect of Cushings, and I will tell you why. Glynda on her told me to check Tipper for a fatty deposit by her breastbone. Tipper's chest bone hangs down much lower than it used to and Woody looks identical. Please mention this to the Dr.'s on Thursday as Glynda knows her stuff. We have terrible cold and wind right now 12 degrees here. Stay warm and safe with that little comedian Woody. Blessings
Patti

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Yes Patti I had noticed it, but will add it to my list of questions for tomorrow. While I was making dinner earlier I sat down a glass of milk and went into the kitchen, came back and little thief that is Woody had his head stuck in it drinking, need eyes in the back of my head with this one. I did take a picture and put it in his album lol

Loved the video, he is such a hoot! Just silly. I love it. got milk! LOL

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

Tracy:
I think you better get something where you can see behind you and all around you at all times as Woody knows when to pull a fast one on you. He is too funny, I guess he felt entitled to some milk! I love everything he does, he so reminds me of Tipper. These are some goofy dogs we have. Blessings
Patti

Hi Tracy

I see you!! What time is the appointment? Love the new video, he so reminds me of Flynn, not just in looks but in temperament! He looks real good and full of energy, was great to see :) x

Tracy:
I will be thinking of you and Woody today at your appointment. Just know you are not alone and my thoughts and prayers are that you find a solution to Woody's dilemma. Blessings
Patti

Hi everyone

Just a quick update as I,m on my phone. We,ve been at the hospital since 9 am this morning and am still here. We spent almost an hour letting Woody play outside while they all observed him and his colitis, and how he generally was. We then came in and he jumped up on Craig my owns knee oops he had muddy feet lol. Woody has gone for his LDDS, Bloods and BP check. I have just walked him and he is fine. I don,t know what I,ve let myself in for as I am in like a classroom situation with whiteboards and drawings and they are drawing things and discussing where everything should go, ie the cancer cells, they have also listed general causes of PU/PD and are going into each one in detail and crossing them off the list when ruled out. Anyways better go back to class. Will update fully later, I have taken lots of notes so be prepared for questions

Tracy:
I am quite impressed with what you have described and feel you and Woody are in excellent hands. I am with you in spirit so just take it all in. Maybe recording it would have been good. I am sure the Dr.'s have the capability to do it and give you one so in case you forget something you can listen to it. Please stay safe driving home. Blessings
Patti

We have a TV show here called "House" that is about a human diagnostician who is very unconventional to say the least yet a genius. The scene you describe of the classroom-like setting reminded me of the scenes on the show when Dr. House and his team are trying to find out what is wrong with the current patient under their care. I bet that is fascinating to see in real life!

I hope the collective knowledge and experience of Woody's team finds out what is going on with him and offers a good game plan. Let us know how it goes!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

Wow, that sounds Very comprehensive. Good thing too, Woody is a mystery. :)

Will be waiting for the final consensus or next step :)

hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

Your team sounds amazing!

Finally made it home phew. By that had to be the longest day every, I left the house at 6 am this morning and just got home at 10 pm, and I,m only a little bit further forward.

Forgive me as this maybe long, I will try and just bullet point it.

1. Woody presents with a lot of Cushing symptoms, PU/PD excess hunger, pot belly, thinning of hair, especially after being shaved for operation. LDDS test done results tomorrow, all other tests for cushings show negative - Cushings is not being ruled out at this point.
2. Collapse:- Sounds like a syncope and maybe related to his already exsisting heart murmour - ECG and Chest X Rays required, to rule out heart related.
3. BP remains stable no sign of hypertension, blood pressure taken during the day at intervals I think the highest was 170 which they weren,t too bothered about as it could be white coat syndrome.
4. General blood work up done - results tomorrow.
5. Colitis still present and at times severe - continue with meds the vet gave me, change of protein in diet recommended.
6. Due to Woody having a neuroendocrine tumour, Thyroid, cushings and several other hormonal diseases can,t be defiantly ruled out.
7. Adrenal Mass - Could be the primary tumour but they can,t understand if it was then why did the cancer cells go from right to left and cordial and not cranial as it "should" do. Adrenal Mass maybe a Pheo but CT scan would be need to confirm, and if so then surgery would be the normal option, but may not be in woody,s case. Ultrasound recommended to check on the adrenal, all lymph nodes in the area, and internal organs.
8. Anal Sac Carcinoma and Left Medial Iilac LN. LN had cancer in it of that there sure and again should go cordial towards the anal sac and not across the body to the left adrenal gland, although pathology has revealed that no cancer was found in the anal sacs they are not convinced that there wasn,t a microscopic tumour there, cancer cells have been found in woody,s endocrine system, but no sign of where they are going, coming from or will end up.
9. MDR Entercoccu - Urine sample taken results tomorrow to see if this has cleared up or not.
10. Palladia - Ian explained all he knew of this drug, I have literature home with me (not had a chance to read it yet). Primarily this is for MCT tumours and has quite a good success rate, it is also used in skin tumours, which is what Anal Sac Carcinoma is classed as especially with a mestarsized (sp) to a lymph node. This drug is given Mon, Wed, Frid for the life of the dog. Main side effect is GI upset, which usually happens in week 2 then the dog is taken off the drug until symptoms subside then slowly drug is re-introduced, I take it this is a bit like what people do with the Cush meds. The dog is monitored every week with bloods being taken to see if causing any damage to likes of liver, kidneys etc, this is done for 6 weeks then monthly thereafter if dog is doing well.

All of the above was talked at great length and detail, so I,m just giving you the outline of it. Ian has explained endocrine system, and neuroendocrine cancer to me in full, and I finally get it, and how hard this is to pinpoint the tumour. Nothing has been ruled out, which I know isn,t great but at least things are a bit more clear to me. I have asked Ian what happens if I just do nothing except US every month or so, what can I expect, symptoms, life expectancy, and he said honestly he couldn,t answer me as they don,t know where the tumour is. He said he would expect it to go to the lung first, then liver and heart possibly brain, as he,s not sure of primary then he didn,t know life expectancy as some tumours grow quickly and others don,t. It was hard to hear by I admired his honesty. He did say that as Woody isn,t the norm then who knows lol. We didn,t get out of "class" till 4.30 pm and as Woody wasn,t due his last blood till 6 pm I just stayed at the hospital café. At about 5.45pm Ian came into the café and had a coffee with me, he said he had been down to say hello to Woody and he was doing fine, but he was really worried about his colitis especially the straining and couldn,t believe it was still going on, we discussed it again at great length and how worried I was that he was hurting himself, he said he was going to look into it some more as he hated watching Woody earlier in the day. When he was leaving he said to me how glad he was that Woody was with me, and he could see how dedicated we were to each other, and that he would try his best to help Woody and I should never give up on him as he is a fighter, then he gave me a big cuddle, I had tears streaming down my face.

Now here,s where it all goes wrong, at 6pm I went to reception to let them know I was there to pick up woody and sat in the waiting room, at 7 pm (reception closed) I rang the night buzzer and a student vet came out, I explained that I had been waiting an hour to pick up Woody, she apologised and said she would go get him. At 8 pm after trying to get a hold of numerous people I got a hold of the cleaner and told her to either get someone out to speak with me or swipe her card and let me into the wards, as by this point I was tired, hunger and worried that something had happened to Woody. Finally at 8.15 pm this student vet brought Woody to me, I was so relieved that I asked what had happened as I had waited 2 hrs, he mumbled something but by that point I was heading out the door. So if that wasn,t enough I get home, walk Woody and go indoors to see that he had a bandage on his back leg, started to take it off him, when I realised they had left the canular in his leg (idiots) I called them immediately and was told to bring him back in, I live 2 hours away, so I agreed to take him to my own vets in the morning and keep him quiet tonight. What a day eh. Woody is fast asleep in my bed as I type this and hasn,t bothered with the bandage yet.

Sorry its so long

what a long day and what a wonderful mom you are. wow. also have to say how impressed i am with your vet. i have had many vets and cannot imagine any of them sitting down and having coffee with me to discuss my dog let alone telling me how glad they are that my dog has me as a mom... wow i am stunned. you are fortunate to have ian on your team. wish i could help with the diagnosis - so complicated. but i can continue to cheer you on and help however i can even if it is just through prayer. Hugs, Kim

Wow you have had quite a day of it, what the heck was happening at the end there... waiting two blardy hours :mad: I would have been like you and broken the door down!

Your vets have really done well today Tracy, that is awesome they all met like that to go over everything. Your Ian sounds just lovely, so nice to get that personal touch. Very impressive!! But you deserved it too after all the waiting about the last few weeks. I am so glad you have a better understanding of it all. Be waiting to hear all the results of today's testing. I hope they are all excellent!! That palladia does sound a bit harsh, I hear it is very expensive too. His colitis seems the immediate problem so hopefully you will get on top of that. What protein are you going to swap him to? xxx

Gosh, what a day you had. I would have been freaking right out having to wait those 2 hours. I would imagine all kinds of things were going through your mind.

I sure hope that this colitis can be rectified very soon. Poor Woody.

You are doing so well getting to the bottom of things and I really, really hope the tests today steer you in the right direction to help Woody.

I admire you for everything you are going through.... hugs to you both.

Thanks everyone. Woody slept well last night and only bothered his leg once, me I hardly slept everything running thru my head you all know how it goes.

But now the plot thickens ( nothing easy for my Woody) Ian rang me at 7 am this morning he apologied for me having to wait and the canular thing. He said there had been an emergency in the hospital and as Woody was to be released about the same time that the IMS simply forgot , he will have them call me today to apologise. He said that after work last night he had been thinking a lot about Woodys colitis, the straining especially he said it's like something is stopping him going, he is wondering if the endocrine cancer is in Woodys colon or gut and it's the tumour causing the symptoms as there is no real reason for his colitis. He also said that this would fit with the lymph node and anal sac carcinoma as it's all cordial and in the same area in the back end of the dog. So something else to consider and worry about great!!!! Woody will be going next week for x rays, ECG, US and any other test they deem. We're off to the vet to get this out his leg and hopefully have a restful day :)

Wow he was up early! He really has his thinking cap on pondering it all. I did not think he had the anal sac carcinoma from the histology :confused::confused: plus I thought Woody had a history of colitis for a few years? Couldn't the colitis just be flaring right now after all the stress he has gone through with the recent surgery etc and maybe that could also be causing the straining. Just trying to think it through without it being anything nasty. I guess if all those sympoms are all caudal then they might fit. Was he scanned prior to this surgery? I cannot remember. Silly buggers leaving the cannula in but I guess in the stress of an emergency it was just overlooked. You are going to need a Nana nap today with this sleepless night and early morning!

Tracy:
You were certainly through the mill yesterday, but I have to admit I wish I had a team brainstorm like that for Tipper. That is awful that you have to drive 2 hours to get that off Woody. I think what Ian said made a lot of sense to me, as my dad had that type of cancer. I think it is certainly a high possibility. I so wish you did not have to worry about all these possibilities though. I think it is winding down now and the possibilities are getting narrower. I feel soon you will know what is wrong. Although that was a good experience yesterday, I am sure it was grueling going through it. I pray that this can all get better for you and Woody soon. You have had so much to deal with, but Woody is s trooper and has kept you laughing throughout. Blessings
Patti

What a day, Tracy! And what an amazing doc Ian is - what a blessing for you and for our sweet Woody boy. Next time you talk to Ian, tell him thanks from all of us here at K9C. Vets like him help restore our faith in his profession and we wish all vets were more like him. ;)

That tumor somewhere in the intestinal tract is something I have been wondering about with Grace. She has numerous tumors all over her belly and starting up her sides but none show up internally on xrays. However, when she got here, her anal glands were horribly impacted - her poop came out in flat ribbons! We got that taken care of and they seem to working correctly now but she still strains to poop very often and they are sometimes flattened even tho the anal glands seem to be fine. So I wonder if there isn't a tumor growing in the tract that hasn't shown up yet causing her problems. Her cancer markers remain normal so we are at a bit of a loss as to what these tumors are.

And of course, my mind wonders if they could have left something in him again or perhaps stitched something a bit too tight. My mind is worrisome at times. :rolleyes::D

I hope they can pinpoint what is going on with Woody soon and can offer a viable solution.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

Trish _your right histology showsno cancer in the anal sacs but they are still saying it was there but microscopic (maybe just covering their backs). Woody has a history of stress colitis that usually clears up in a few days like it did before the operation. He was scanned twice pre op and nothing showed up.

Leslie this is how Woody poos at the moment very ribbon like small amounts and strains everytime, but woods doesn't have any anal sacsso they can't get impacted not much use to you there lol. Like you my mind has wondered down the road of something being left inside him after op as the straining started the day after his operation. Ian did briefly say yesterday could it be the op itself I don't want to think this

Woody has had his canular out and I had a good chat with Craig and he agrees that the tumour may well be in gut or colon but I'm not so sure, not sure of anything just now. The hospital called earlier and his LDDS test was negative for cushings surprise so it has been ruled out now, still waiting on urine and blood work up to come back. Woody is booked in on Wednesday for his heart and US.

Tracy:
You are holding up and doing a wonderful job. Woody is so very lucky he ended up with you. He is getting every opportunity there is to get help with whatever the problems is. I am confident in this team that they will get to the problem here soon. I can only dream of such good medical care. My vet just wants the money and then just get out. The veterinarians that I have been to are a real sorry lot. The money has taken over the well being of the animal. I could just see my vet taking the time to have a conference with me like that. Yeah right! If he is pooping like you say, it could either be the operation, or a tumor there. I know with people this is what happens. I pray this is nothing that cannot be corrected easily. You and Woody have a good rest while you can, you deserve it. How is your mom doing? Is your niece with her? Blessings
Patti

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Originally Posted by goldengirl88

Tracy:
You were certainly through the mill yesterday, but I have to admit I wish I had a team brainstorm like that for Tipper. That is awful that you have to drive 2 hours to get that off Woody. I think what Ian said made a lot of sense to me, as my dad had that type of cancer. I think it is certainly a high possibility. I so wish you did not have to worry about all these possibilities though. I think it is winding down now and the possibilities are getting narrower. I feel soon you will know what is wrong. Although that was a good experience yesterday, I am sure it was grueling going through it. I pray that this can all get better for you and Woody soon. You have had so much to deal with, but Woody is s trooper and has kept you laughing throughout. Blessings


Patti

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Thanks patti mum is doing well she has hospital next week for check up, yeah my lovely niece has been staying with her not sure who's looking after who but, but I know mum enjoys the company. I'm sorry that your vet team is all about the money suppose I've bn lucky Craig is in it for the animal and money I suppose as it is a business I don't get charged half of what he should charge me and let's me make payments to him if it's a big bill, he may not be the most clued up vet around but Woody loves him. Ian again is all for the animal which to me speaks volumes he makes a point of trying to get to know the animal he is very "camp" spoken which makes giggle. I am not going to focus on yesterday for now I'm going to spend a good weekend with my baby.

He was cleaning all his shaved bits tonight mostly front legs and I was singing to him "gonna wash that hospital right outta your fur" and dancing all silly and Woody was wagging his tail, it helps to laugh I think as otherwise none of us on here would get through all this

Hi Tracy

I was just having a look at a website on anal sac carcinoma and noted this complication rate: 10% complication rate associated with anal sac resection including intraoperative hemorrhage, infection, fecal or urinary incontinence, hypocalcemia, tenesmus, and perianal fistula formation

http://www.vsso.org/Anal_Sac_Tumors.html

Tenesmus means a feeling of incomplete emptying of the bowel and includes straining.... I wonder if that could be what it is, considering you have said that is started straight after surgery??

I like your song!! Sounds like Woody did too :D

Yeah Trish I have read that and this is a strong possibility as he does feel like he needs to empty his bowels all the time. We did speak of this at hospital but they felt it should off cleared up by now but then this is Woody we,re talking about. I just think it's not in his gut and it's something to do with the adrenal mass, I also don't think his heart is any worse as it's been stable at grade 4 all the way through this but who knows I maybe completely wrong. But at least cushings has been ruled out. At the hospital they spoke in length of a pheo and it was one of the things still left on the table along with cushings, and the anal sac carcinoma with a spread to possible chest that was all still to be considered. You would have loved watching them all the other day the we're drawing pictures of a dog with arrows going everywhere to try and get to the bottom of this, there was a lot if pacing and head scratching going on a lot of it I didn't understand but you would have I just hope I didn't look stupid lol

I bet you didn't look stupid, because your not!! Plus you're the heart of Woody, so that keeps them honest having you in the room!! Your vets are awesome Tracy! After that little discussion you had with them about communication they have really come up trumps, so I think that is a great lesson for anyone reading your thread about how you stuck to it and even though it took a while look at the excellent care Woody is getting. Well apart from leaving the cannula in him :eek::eek:

I would have thought the anal sac carcinoma would have shown up in the histology. Even if it is microscopic.... they were looking at it through a microscope after all :eek::D that is what that means, ie macroscopic - can see it with your own eyes vs microscopic - can only see through microscope. It just seems strange they still think it could be that.

Flynn had a bit of straining when he had the big liver mass, the one end of 2011. He never did with his adrenal mass though.

I with you I wish they would stop saying anal sac carcinoma as he didn't have it the pathology proved that so they should move on from that which they seem to be struggling with as going on everything on his tests he should of had it. It still angers me that I put him thru that for no need and when I see him straining it kills me inside knowing I may have caused that with unnecessary surgery and of course there was the cost of it. Woody has an enlarged liver that they will be looking at next wk along with all other organs, so it's a waiting game again

You didn't cause it sweet, you went along with the advice the professionals gave you. I would have done exactly the same! So you can kick those thoughts to the curb!

The trouble with diagnosis sometimes it can be so tricky as we are seeing with Woody. Yes it is a shame he has had to go through that surgery. I think if he needed more, I would be negotiating with them very hard for a discount.

Our surgeon said to me at least with liver tumours, if they are not diffuse all through the liver they are operable and can regrow. I think Flynn has shown us how well they can get through that surgery... twice :eek: But hopefully we will not be going there with Woody

Tracy:
You and I tend to beat ourselves up. Please don't blame yourself as you did what you thought was in Woody's beat interests. I know the guilt feeling all to well. Read my post today and you will see what I mean. You and Woody rest up for the weekend as it has been a grueling few days for you both. I want to see some Woodyisms next time I log on about his wonderful antics. God Bless You Both
patti

Evening everyone, we,ve had a lazy day today, lay on the sofa and watched Christmas movies and ate junk food and it felt good :p Woody has been quiet today but then it does take it a few days for him to get over hospital appointments, he is currently throwing a toy about, he seems to come alive at nights. We,ve had really shocking weather today heavy rain and really high winds, Woody nearly got blown over in the garden when out for the toilet, and he looked at me like it was my fault or maybe he thought I pushed him :p

Hope everyone is having a good weekend :)

Oh that sounds so nice, it is getting pretty hot here and I would love to stay inside with the a/c on and blob and watch movies, sounds bliss and I think that will be on the agenda later today.

One of my colleagues who is also a great friend is retiring this week :( sad for me but :D happy for her!! We are having a company wide reception on Thursday and I have to make a speech, so Ihave been putting together a talk with stories and photos of her (sure to make her cringe hehe) so a friend and Ih ave to go out get the pressie today. Then Friday she is having special drinks at a winery to celebrate!! Looking forward to that bit!

Yesterday evening I made a start on this big patch of overgrown garden at Mum and Dad's it is too much for them to do and it is along a fence line and they hate their garden looking messy. The blardy weedy bit is along and under this wild rambling rose, so I had to crawl in and pull the weeds and dig. Gawd, I looked like a wild woman all hot and sweaty, swearing away when the rose jabbed me.. classy eh :eek::eek: Flynn kept breaking trails through the undergrowth to come see me and he would give me a kiss then take off again! I only got half done and have promised them I would do the rest today! :p:p:p Honestly, my brother is a little shite living 4 hrs away and leaving all this kind of stuff for me!!! :mad:

But other than that it should be a relaxing day :D:D

Tracy:
That sounds like the kind of day Tipper and I need today. I am so fatigued. Tipper is tough and she just keeps on going. That was funny about Woody thinking you pushed him. He is so silly, and cute. I have been meaning to ask you the name of you village. I wanted to see if I could see where you are on Google Earth!!. I hope both of you have a peaceful Sunday and rest up. No pushing Woody now!! Blessings
Patti

Patti - I live in a village called Sorn, Ayrshire you should get it on google earth, and sometimes if you can get the street view up you can see my house too :D

Well I finished the xmas shopping today, and have spent the last hour trying to wrap it up, but its a bit difficult when a certain nosey little dog keeps lying on the wrapping paper, and reckoning everything I bring out of bags must be sniffed within an inch of its life just incase its edible or playable with. I have given up for tonight and will do it on the kitchen table tomorrow. :D

I have a table set up in the basement to wrap presents. Far away from prying pups and cats. :-)

I hate wrapping, always cut the paper too small or run out of tape or cannot find the scissors :mad: I need to hire a wrapperupperer! Glad Woody has fun with it too :D.... here is Flynny opening his Christmas presents when he was 7!! He is just like your boy and thinks every bag or present belongs to him, I used to have two cats that have both passed in the last couple of years. But if I brought groceries in while they were about he would sit by them guarding from cat invasions :D Hopefully you can see this video Tracy, as I have posted it before and it does not work for some in the US but your in Scotland so should have no problem :D My nephew did it, it always makes me smile when I see it :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNrM_RdOdks

Trish I can see it :D Flynn is so like Woody they way he rips it and then spits the paper to the side lol. I loved the music that went with it. :D

That's cute, Trish! :D

Tracy:
I think I found your village. Are you near Sorn Road? What I was looking at was magnificent. Terrific views of the sea etc. I am hoping you and Woody had a good weekend together. How is you mom progressing? Does your grandmother live close to all of you? That is great to still have her around your are lucky. I guess you will have to go out and get Woody new presents! I saw Glasgow also looks like a beautiful city. How far of a drive is it from you? Blessings
Patti

Woody has collapsed again, he,s not good please please pray for him, I am rushing him to the vets.

Oh goodness, Tracy! Please let us know! Sending prayers, positive thoughts, and healing energies flying his way.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

We,ve not made it to the vet yet, Woody won't stand, walk and won't let me pick him up I've spoke to Craig who said as soon as he is up get him in. Someone tell me to get a grip I feel like I'm watching him die in front of me, he is asleep good colour and I'm right beside him on the floor willing him to get up so I can get him fixed.