Zoe By My Side- Our Journey with Cushings

Just checking in, Addy, and to say "Hi, we're thinking of you". Can't help with the med stuff but can still send warm hugs your way.
Love,
Carrol

Hi Carrol,
I missed your last hi somehow, I saw Glynda and Leslie and missed you and Sonja:confused:,


Zoe finally had normal poo tonight. It is so cold she does not want to even go out and try to poo but tonight I carried her and insisted and then carried her back in. Her feet freeze right away. So now I will try another way of stopping one dose. I might haul out the pumpkin and give it a go. At least she has gained some weight after losing 1 1/2 pounds in December. I feel better she has her cushion of fat:D:D:D. I cut her food back a bit for a few days and fasted her between meals. She was not a happy camper about that:rolleyes:

Hoping to get in to see IMS next week. I feel like I am obsessed with metronidazole:eek::eek::eek::eek: Like I am on a crusade to stop it.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

From what I have read, it kills bacteria, kills parasites, helps inflammation and has the cell mediated immunity which could help if allergic problem:confused::confused:

So how does that tie in to stress colitis? Perhaps stress can cause inflammation? I feel like such a daaaaaaaaa:D:mad::rolleyes::confused:

LOL, I think I rest my brain for a few days. Our pipe from our well to the house needed to be replaced:eek: Thankfully, the damage to the yard, house and pocket book was not too great:rolleyes:

Love ya,
Addy

Oh, Addy, doesn't it just seem like one thing after another? I think this is supposed to make us stronger!:rolleyes:
Do you have boots for Miss Zoe? I remember, in Canada, having cold feet and it's not pleasant.
Yes, stress can cause inflammation - have you ever had the "trots" when you have been extremely nervous?
But, I would try to think of other things until you see IMS next week and get this all straightened out. I would take my shopping list of questions and stage a sit-in until I had all the answers.Try to relax, my dear friend, with a cup of coffee or glass of wine;) and maybe curl up with a good book (that has nothing to do with Cushing's!!) It would be a perfect "cuddle time" for the little Miss.
Well, off tomorrow am with all 3 in tow to non-anaesthetic dental appointments:)
Warm hugs,
Carrol

Hi Addy,

I hope you finally be able to get some positive answers as how to proceed with Zoe's treatment.

Take care my dear friend.

Dear Addy
Hope you get some answers next week.
I will post what is going on my thread.
Praying for you and Zoe. Always something.

Thanks Best Friend, you are the best to always find time to check in.

Funny thing, I have been wondering why Zoe's B12 on her gastro panel is always high. Texas A & M says "there is no significance in this range"

Well today they were talking on TV about fad diets and one of the nutrionists said B12 comes from animals. The light bulb went on-Zoe's raw diet- she eats basically meat thus her high B12.

So of course, the nut that I am has now decided to research the benefits of B12 since we have so much of it:rolleyes: Not that I am trying to talk myself out of changing her food. I guess I was just excited to finally figure out why she had that high B12.

I should get a job as a researcher since that is all I seem to do;):cool::eek::rolleyes:

We are off to buy Valentine presents for the grandkids and the pups. The cold has finally left and the pups and I need to fly this coop.:D

We need to move forward, as I like to say.

Love you all,
Addy

Interesting Addy - buried deep the in Annie's thread is the fact that when she had the test that resulted in the diagnosis of bacteria in her small intestines (SIBO) her B 12 was WAY high also. I looked all over the place and most dogs with SIBO had low B12.

I then took Annie to Kansas State and they did the endoscopy which found the helicobacter in her stomach. She had bleeding ulcers in her stomach as well as down her entire esophagus. The vets there said it was not SIBO.

Just sharing since we seem to have a lot of similarities in our dog's cases. Kim

Oooooo, Addy, what do you mean "the cold has left"? You live in Milwaukee, girl!!!!!:eek:
Seriously, glad to know you guys are able to get a breath of fresh air. Interesting thought about the B12. Hmmmmm........wonder if the dogs in the wild had this problem:confused:
Hope everything settles itself out for you soon. Will keep checking in, my friend. We've got to keep Miss Zoe bopping along.
Lots of love & hugs,
Carrol

Gee Kim, Just when I thought I had a B12 theory:) I forgot Annie had high B12. Was her folate normal? Zoe's is normal.

But was is yet even more interesting to me is a vet we saw two summers ago thought Zoe had helicobacter in her colon. He based that on her history and that all her other tests came back "Normal". He did not find it in her. My husband and I did not pay too much attention to him. We called him Vet Columbo as he was a bit like Columbo if you remember the TV series. We did not go back to him, he tried to tell me he knew Zoe as a puppy:rolleyes: and she had intestinal issues back then. WHAT???? The whole thing was just icky feeling but I still remember him saying he thought she had helicobacter. No one else has ever said that.:confused:

And yes Carrol, anything in the 30's is considered warm in Milwaukee. :D:D Wow, scary, huh? We get above freezing and it is a heat wave.:cool:

Texas A &M say no significance in her B12 reading. I just wanted to see the benefits of B12.

Hey Carrol, hubby wants to know how badly the Zeal smells. He is freaking out I might switch Zoe to Zeal. I alway put a dab of her Embark in her Kong for her to lick out so now he thinks the whole house is going to smell like fish if I do that with Zeal:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Thanks Kim and Carrol and have a really good weekend!!!!!!

Love ya,
Addy

Tell your hubby he should be grateful you don't cook cod and liver once a week! :p:eek::p

Addy - yes, her folate was normal I believe.

From reading about it helicobacter is very very common and alot of dogs have it and live with it without any problems. They say that stress and 'events' can trigger it and that is when it needs to be treated.

In my case I had multiple big events that happened at the same time - Annie was given lysodren despite not having cushing's and Haley died. To treat the helicobacter you give 3 strong antibiotics at the same time for two weeks.

They would not have discovered it without the endoscopy.

On a better note - your weather will be getting even better because we are in the 40s and headed to the 60s next week! Hurrah. The snow will all melt which means I need to get out the pooper scooper. ha.

Kim

Hmmmm, Kim, you do have me thinking though. I went to Vet Columbo because he saved my friend's dog's life. He was the only vet who figured out what was wrong with my friend's dog. So Zoe would have to have colonoscopy to find it? They can't find it any other way?

This is the first winter since Zoe was diagnosed with "colitis" that she did not have good poos. It used to be she got better in the winter. Last winter she was "cured" and I could not believe it. I could give her little pieces of food she could never eat and she was fine. I admit I even gave her popcorn (no butter or salt) and she was fine. It is her favorite so I can't eat it at home anymore because now she gets sick from it again.

Last winter she was on the shen calmer and natural thyroid supplement becuase she had borderline low T4 and T3. I then started to wonder if maybe she isn't borderline anymore but low thyroid becuase of the Cushings. Maybe I should ask IMS about both of these Wednesday.

What's a few more questions, right:eek::eek::eek:;);):D

HUGS

Addy

They took a culture from her stomach etc to look under a microscope to get the helicobacter dx. I would assume it would be similar for the other 'end'. ;):D

I am glad you are hiding the popcorn because it is awful for the colon. Sorry Zoe no more popcorn for you buddy. I'm sure mom has found alternative treats though.

Organic boneless, skinless turkey breast that I slow roast:p Her only treats are turkey breast. I swear the dogs eat better than me. Though she does share her turkey with me for lunch sometimes.:D

I don't even want to tell you what we just spend at the pet store for their food:eek::rolleyes: I thought hubby was going to have a heart attack:o Then we came home and had a frozen pizza for our lunch. Yuk:p:p:p

I did not know that popcorn was horrible for the colon, glad you told me. That makes it even more amazing she was able to eat 4-5 pieces last winter.:confused:

Zoe and I went for a walk!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Her paws did not freeze and I did not have to carry her home. It has been a long time.

She pranced down the hill and then stopped for some smells, woofed at my neighbor when I called out "Hi" and then stopped and did "watch me" waiting for chucken, which I forgot to bring and then she pranced right back up the hill and was not out of breath, her legs did not shake.

It may not seem like much, but I am smiling from ear to ear and so loving the moment:D:D:D

I have tears of joy in my eyes and just had to share.

Love,
Addy

Oh, Addy!

I am so happy for you and Zoe! :D I know what a great, great feeling it is to see your baby acting so happy and full of life! I hope this is something you see much more often - you both certainly deserve to!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Dear Addy

So glad to hear about Zoe.
Compared to you I am a wimp about cold weather. Born in cold Toronto, Ontario, Canada now if it gets below 60 I am freezing:eek::eek:
I am waiting to get my computer back. Praying my data is not lost. I have so much research and articles on Apollo's cushing and copies of input from everyone. Computer tech has had my computer since WEdnesday now may not get until Monday.:eek:
I will post on my thread about Apollo.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Hey There!!!

You thought I dropped off the face of the earth!!!:p:p

I am so happy for you and Zoe!!! Walks--they are the best--especially with your buddy!!!:):)

Maddie had 2 favorite people foods--POPCORN and Watermelon. She could smell both or knew the sounds of the popping and the cutting open of the watermelon. We were eating both one day in the kitchen--she sat between my husband and myself so we tested to see which one she would go for first---watermelon won, but it was a tough decision for her. The tortoises love watermelon also, so I would have to tell Maddie to LEAVE IT because she would lay in wait for the tortoises to finish or she would just outright steal it from them.:D

Keep enjoying those walks!!! :):)

LOL Marie, Popcorn and watermelon are Zoe's favorites too. Though her number one is her turkey breast which we still call "chicken" from when we used to give her chicken. She knows the word so we never taught her the word "turkey"

One time at dog school Zoe was supposed to go through a tunnel. I was at the other end calling her to come through and she was too afraid to do it. Finally, the trainer said "don't make her, she is too afraid". My reply was "she can do it" and I yelled "chicken" really loudly throught the tunnel opening and there came Zoe at a million miles an hour. Of course I gave her her reward and the trainer just stood there dumb founded :D That's my girl, never underestimate her when it comes to "chicken".;)

Glad your back, I missed you.

Hugs,
Addy

LOL!!!!:D:D I can just see you at the end of the tunnel yelling. Maddie would have been the same way, but I think when she was a puppy the first time she saw the tunnel she ran the opposite direction with the look of what the heck I'm not going thru that. She finally went thru when they shorten it up then no problem--she liked the game. They are sooo fun and their sense of humor priceless.:):)

So how's the weather???? I hope you got a heat wave going!!!:D

Looks like we are finally going to get some rain this week. I hope it is a good storm--guess we will wait and see. Darn those zinnia seeds are not planted yet!!!:( Why does work have to get in the way....

Happy Valentine's Day!!!:p Had to use a pink face--hehe....

All the snow from the blizzard should be gone by Firday but we have to worry now about it causing flooding. It is in the 40's all week which compared to how cold it was, is a heat wave:p:D

I love to hear stories about Maddie Girl:D Don't worry, you will have her zinnia garden. Work always gets in the way of everything:mad::rolleyes:

Happy Valentine's Day to you too!!!!!!!!! ( I ordered Zoe a new sweater from Etsy for Spring. I figured hubby could not scold me because it is a holiday:p:p:p) It is a bit over the top but I LOVE IT:D:D:D

Hugs,
Addy

Seeing IMS tomorrow-trying to get ready-

Questions:

Read that Tylan belongs to macrolide class of antibiotics (mycin antibiotics like erythromycin) does that mean side effects which I previously read were rare and that it is well tolerated would be similar to the mycin antibiotics?

Also read that Tylan does not help stress colitis even though it does state it helps as an anti inflammatory to soothe the large intestine.

Since I already have seen side effects on flaygl/metronidazole at 250 mgs per day at daily use for 3 weeks, I am still trying to figure out how does metronidazole help Zoe if she has colitis from stress/high cortisol?

It stated Tylan will not help that.

Thoughts? Comments? Experiences? Please :D

Hugs,
Addy

Just a hello.
To see how you are.
Going to Vet in 10 min.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Hi All,

Just got back from an hour meeting with IMS. She answered all my questions half of them I did not get to ask as she already answered them. I feel emotional and mentally drained right now.

The prescription I got from the IMS is to enjoy my dog. She is thrilled that the metronidazole is working for Zoe and that she does not need to add another antibiotic. She prefers it to Tylan because of the cell mediated immunity. She is not worried that Zoe will need a higher and higher dose of it.

Since whatever was bothering Zoe and causing her to lose weight and be ill has improved, we are not rocking the boat at this point.

We are to keep everything the same. I am to stop agonizing over how much metronidazole she needs, stop trying to cut back the dose.:o:o:o

Reviewed Zoe's Cushing symptoms, does not consider that strong or overt.

Continue for 3 months unless there is a change. Review in 3 months.

Reminded me that as we bring her cortisol down, her colitis could get worse and/or we could see other problems cortisol is now masking. Since symptoms are not yet strong, we are not rocking the boat.

I am trying to digest all she told me but I looked her in the eyes and told her how much Zoe means to me and that I have to trust her. She said yes you do and you can trust me because I know how much Zoe means to you and how important this is.

I agreed to trust her. So the journey continues. She did say that if Zoe cannot handle the Lysodren, she will then look at Trilostane for her as an option.

Dear Addy
My heart goes out to you. Sounds like a good doctor.
Will post on my thread. Just like you I am drained from the last two days with vets.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Hi Addy,

It sounds like you found a keeper, and that she has experience with cushings. I'm keeping everything crossed that everything continues to go well.

Take care my dear friend and relax.

(((HUGS)))

Luv ya,

Terri and Corky.

Thank you Sonja and Terri,

IMS is a keeper she was so patient with me. Moral support and family member understanding is important in the vet/patient relationship. She was great and she really is smart. She would explain everthing so thoroughly, I did not even have to ask all my questions, she had already answered them.

I am just sad because I had hoped Zoe would somehow be able to be cured. It looks now like Metronidazole will be our daily routine for life.

But the positive is that she is stronger now than in December and she is happy. She is also more affectionate. IMS thought because some of the hormones are now normal or lower, her mood is better and she is not having hot flashes:eek::rolleyes:

Who knew????:rolleyes::rolleyes: Dogs with PMS:eek::eek:

Have to leave it on a happy note. After all it is Friday.:D No more time to be sad:D:D:D

Love you all,
Addy

Okay, am I reading more into this than I should? When Zoe got really sick in November and December and was on 250 mgs of metronidazole, she stopped jumping on the sofa. I figured it was her Cushings muscle wasting.

Since then I have cut back on the dosage and for the last ten days, I have been pulsing on and off the night time dose. In the last few days, she has jumped on the sofa 5 times. Yesterday she did it 2 times and this morning she just jumped up there again.:confused:

I don't want to get my hopes up. It is probably some fluke. I thought I had read that flagyl/metronidazole can cause leg weakness. I know I had the neurological side effects for awhile.

Maybe it is just her tummy feels better now. I guess I have to wait and see how it progresses. Just seems odd.

Awwww, she just went to lay near Koko. Her sweetness is coming back.:) They are so darn cute:p:p

Hugs,
Addy

Hi Addy,

I wish I had some answers for you, but I've never used these meds. What you are doing seems to be working. I'm keeping everything crossed that everything continues to improve.

Give Zoe and Koko belly rubs from me. They are so cute.

Don't even try to figure out. Just enjoy it for what it is.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Sonja, you have wise words of wisdom for sure.

Love ya,
Addy

It has been almost one year since we first noticed Zoe's hair not growing back from a grooming and our Cushings journey started.

I have been reflecting back over that year. Last March I was so excited I received Alexandra Horowitz's book Inside Of A Dog, what dogs see, smell and know. I wished I could go back to school and study animal behavior as it fascinated me.

On Zoe's birthday in April, her holistic vet told me Zoe had Cushings based on a UC:CR test which was done incorrectly. It turned out she was right.

Three things happened that day. One: I could no longer read Inside of A Dog's Mind or any other dog book in my library. Two: I suddenly could pronounce and remember the word metronidazole. For two years I called it flagyl even though my vets called it metronidazole because I simply could not remember it for whatever unconscious reason. Three: I stopped writing my book.

Monday, I picked up Inside of A Dog's Mind and started reading it again without the pain and anguish I had felt.

We are now on daily doses on metronidazole.

I still cannot work on my book.

Zoe's is not bald; she is still here and is a happy dog.

Just feeling a need for reflection today and looking inside not only a dog's mind but the human mind. My mind.



Hugs,
Addy

Dear Addy
Like you told me to start drawing again, start writing again. Thank you for your reflection on your journey with Zoe.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Hi There,

I have been away--that darn work thing getting in the way. I only have a quick moment to write.

Reflecting is a good thing. I keep reflecting to "I remember when..." I mostly am having pretty good days-not so non productive as much. I am still seeing people who don't know about Maddie and I have to tell them--sometimes I hold it together and sometimes not so much. I really am better, but....:(:(

As Sonja said why not go back to writing--it will feel like normal again after 21 days of doing it. If I can go back to walking the trail Maddie and I travelled you can go back to writing. What are you writing about?? You can tell me and get inspired again--hahaha!!!:D

Have a great weekend!!!

Wow, Marie you must have ESP because I have been thinking about you and missing you. I was going to Maddie's thread to write to you tomorrow, I have a furlough day.

Did you travel for work? How's the weather and more importantly, how are you???????:D:D:D

I was reflecting on the last year, where we have been, where we came from, where we are now. Business at work has been really slow, very worried about my job for months now. Been there 25 years give or take, not exactly a spring chicken to start over.:eek:

I was thinking of making a batch of doggie ice cream and marketing it to local restaurants that are pooch friendly for the Summer. Then maybe getting one of those ice cream push carts to sell it on the weekends.;) What do you think, girl?

You know Addy, always thinking:rolleyes::rolleyes: And the thinking usually involves dogs.

I can't write, I have writer's block. I can only write short snipets, like a few paragraphs. Maybe I should blog:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Love ya,
Ice cream maker, with writers block ;):p:D:rolleyes:
Addy

I finally have time to post this:

I am going to post some of my questions and UTK's answers to them. I would like to share this information with direct quotes so it is clearly transmitted. To recap this relates to my dog. Zoe has colitis, mild Cushings symptoms, mainly bilateral hair loss and now some hind leg weakness. She has been on melatonin and lignans since October. For some reason, her blood work is now all normal with no indications of what you may see in a Cushing Dog. Previously her cholesterol and ALK where elevated but not hugely. She was diagnosed with a UTK panel and an ultra sound by an IMS. My IMS ran the UTK panel because of the hair loss and Zoe having no other symptoms at the time to see where we stood; that perhaps another hormone besides cortisol was causing the hair loss and she had had a ppositive UC:CR. Her estradiol and aldosterone are now normal and her other intermediates have come down. Her cortisol increased. She had been very sick in November and December with her colitis taking a turn for the worse. She is now on daily doses of Metronidazole to control it.

Questions and answers:

Can a dog showing mild symptoms of adrenal disease and also having a concurrent non-adrenal related disease at time of testing show an increase in the intermediate hormones due to the non adrenal disease?

>>>Non-adrenal disease can cause increased hormone levels; particularly 17-hydroxyprogesterone. But, I don’t think you would get the high levels of hormones that you are seeing from non-adrenal disease illness. Any chance that you are using hormone creams? You often see these very high hormone levels in dogs when owners are applying hormone creams, and the dog comes in contact with application sites.

Can a non adrenal disease affect the sex hormones?

>>>The only one that’s been studied so far is the 17-hydroxyprogesterone.

I did consider maintenance dose of lysodren rather than loading with lysodren to see if she can tolerate it. I am worried it will cause Zoe diarrhea as she has such a touchy system.

>>>With the high hormone levels, you probably will need something in addition to melatonin and lignan, and maintenance Lysodren is probably best.

If I do low dose Trilostane will it elevate her Estradiol and Aldosterone?

>>>It will, and they are already high to begin with.

Should I not consider Trilostane at all?

>>>With the profile of hormones that you have, I would prefer maintenance Lysodren along with melatonin and lignans

With cortisol as high as Zoe's in your experience, is a non loading lysodren maintenance dose a viable option?

>>>It certainly would be. There would be two approaches here; 1) you could do a more conservative treatment by continuing the melatonin and lignans, and add maintenance Lysodren; or, 2) you could do the traditional approach where cortisol is very elevated and load the dog to get the hormone levels under control, and then go to maintenance Lysodren.

I had hoped to start Zoe on a maintenance dose of lysodren but I am now concerned that her cortisol is too high for that to help. Do you have a cut off point at which the cortisol is too high for you to recommend that as a treatment option and loading would be the only option?

>>>You can give the melatonin, lignan and maintenance Lysodren, and if you don’t see improvement within 3 months, then you can consider a loading dose of Lysodren at that time. Monitor the cortisol levels in either case, like you would for a true Cushing’s case treated with a loading dose of Lysodren. When cortisol gets down to around 50 ng/ml (5 ug/dL), the intermediates as well as cortisol will be controlled. Estradiol is sometimes an exception to this.


What will do Zoe more harm, elevated cortisol or elevated intermediate hormones? If I have to choose between the lesser of two evils

>>>>This direct quote I did not copy correclty so cannot post now but he said they seem to do the same thing.


I will share Dechra's opinion on my dog at another time. This way we can all see both sides to Zoe's situation.

Again, I want to stress the questions and answers are based on my dog's own unique set of Cushing problems and concurrent health issue.

Hugs,
Addy

Dear Addy
Very complex issues you have. I do not blame you for being very cautious about starting the Lysodern. You have no concrete signs to go by. Wish I could be of more help.
I like the idea about the ice cream. I have been thinking about designing a walker for seniors totaly different then out there. Like you, I have been in business for over 30years. will post about Apollo later.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Hi Addy,

I know you're trying very hard to make the best decision you can possibly make for Zoe. Making a decision on which treatment to use can be a difficult one. I really hope that you will soon be able to start Zoe's treatment.

(((HUGS))) for you and belly rubs for Zoe.

Thank you Terri and Sonja,

I posted the questions and answers so others may possibly glean something from it. I will post Dechra's answers as soon as I have some time to sit down to cut and paste and reread emails.

We have decided to hold off any treatment for two months. Zoe has gained the weight back she lost while ill and is much stronger now. I have not seen any leg trembling when I take her out for short walks up and down the hill. She is doing better on her metronidazole. She gets appx 62 mgs every am and 62 mg every other night. I will try to again discontinue the evening dose or push it to every two nights. I doubt that will work.

Until her symptoms progress, I am going to wait. I really want to change her food. want to change her protein. She has been eating only turkey for 1.5 years now. Changing her food is going to be hard and I have to do it before treatment starts. I remain concerned her system cannot handle bacteria from her raw pattys and have wanted to switch since last June but IMS kept saying no. She now said OK as long as we do it before treatment. I just want to give her colitis a chance to calm down and stabilize as the food change will flare it up again. She was so sick, I want her feeling good for awhile before I push the envelope.

Thanks for helping.

Hugs,
Addy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by addy

She is doing better on her metronidazole. She gets appx 62 mgs every am and 62 mg every other night. I will try to again discontinue the evening dose or push it to every two nights. I doubt that will work.

---

Hi Addy,

I am so glad to hear that Zoe is doing better!! Since that is the case, I am just wondering why you are again wanting to alter her metronidazole dose? I am thinking that your specialist has said that there is no problem with her continuing on the same dose, but maybe I am wrong about that. But if not, since she is doing so well right now, I guess I'm not sure why you would want to rock the boat -- especially since you are hoping to make a dietary change...:o

Marianne