Zoe By My Side- Our Journey with Cushings

Thank you for your input. I was worried about Apollo getting any more rabies shots. Now I know no way. I stopped vaccines about over 2 years ago when I read articles on how long they last and how many are not called for.
Dear Andy, it sounds like Zoe was traumatized by this experience. Apollo has never been muzzled at the vet. The only reason to do so would be if she is biting . Doesn't make sense. When ever I introduce Apollo to something new I let him smell and look at it first. I try to be in the room with Apollo and hold him and speak to him. I have put a muzzle on Apollo before to stop him from barking to let him know not to do it when people have come near me in the past in our store. Don't do it anymore , but he didn't resist at the time.

Hi Sonja,

She was fine at the IMS until they took her from me and she must have freaked out, she kept trying to pull to us and they said her behavior was such that they had to muzzle her so she would not bite. She used to give a warning, like snap her head around like she wanted to bite or nip but then I would pet her side and tell her "up" and she would stop acting like that and allow me to pick her up. It took 3 months of practice to reasuure her about "UP." She would not let the vet or technicians touch her after her ultra sound. She was traumatized. When she got home she even threw up and she never throws up. As soon as I took her out of the vet's building and told her "UP" she let me pick her up and continues to do so at home. When we went to the vet's Saturday she did not want to be in the examining room and tried to hide under the bench and did not want me to pick her up, she just freaked. I told her "up" and picked her up and put her on the table and they said they wanted to muzzle her because she did not have a rabies shot.

She has to go to the groomers every eight weeks. I don't want to give her the shot but I also don't want her to be put in quarentine if she bites or nips someone.

I don't know what to do. I am making an appointment with IMS for next week for a follow up. I know they will muzzle her again not that she bit but because they are afraid she will.

I titer rather than give shots now with both dogs but the rabies thing with a reactive dog that has to go out to the groomers and vets, well, I don't have any experience with that. She never had to be muzzled before at either place.

Addy

Hi Addy,

My Crys had to wear a muzzle and I hated it but it was necessary for her. She had to wear one starting pretty young because of Pica - she would eat non-food items. In fact, she got off and ate the first 3 muzzle types we tried! :rolleyes::p

She never did really adjust to them but she did learn to deal with them and not fear them. The one that she couldn't eat was mostly metal with leather straps and made her look like Hannibal Lector. :eek: She had to wear the muzzle at home mostly, until she nipped a kid at the vet's office one day. :eek::(

Crys was timid and the boys couldn't keep their hands off of her and they were rowdy, making her nervous and she nipped. Scared the crap out of me! After that, she was muzzled when we went into the office. She had never offered to bite them but I wasn't prepared to take a chance. On the few occasions that I forgot hers, they would let me put one of theirs on her before the exam. She accepted it better from me than from them and it was less traumatic on her.

Maybe if you asked your vet to let you muzzle Zoe, she wouldn't be so upset. Also, getting one like they use and using it from time to time at home on Zoe might help her learn it could be endured for short times and wouldn't hurt her.

It really broke my heart to have to muzzle Crys, even tho I knew it was the best thing for her at the time. The danger she was putting herself in by eating weird things all the time plus the fear of having her taken from me after she nipped that child made it easier to do, but I still hated it.

So often it seems our babies develop a fear or down-right hate of the vet office when they are diagnosed with a condition like Cushing's. All of a sudden, they are at the vets a lot, especially during the diagnostic phase, being poked, stuck, prodded, spread, and drained frequently...none of it pleasant to remember. We can't explain to them that this is all for them, all to help them feel better, all because we love them. All they know is they DO NOT want to go in there! So we battle the emotions these necessary steps bring and do what we must to make sure our babies are safe and healthy as possible.;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Hi Leslie,

Thank you for answering my question. Zoe tends to be fearful anyway so a bad vet visit will do here in.

I think you have good suggestions and I will get a muzzle and work with her at home so I can put it on. I also will never let them take her from me again if I can help it, I will tell them I have to go along to wherever they are taking her.

I don't mind they muzzle her I just don't want her to be so scared about it because I worry that the stress will skew her tests.

I wonder now if all this reactivity stems from the cortisol. I read it can cause behavior problems.

Do you think if I get her use to the muzzle I won't have to give her a rabies shot? I feel like i am between a rock and a hard place I believe the saying goes:eek::eek:

By the way, did you ever cure the Pica? I have been working hard with my Koko because he tries to eat little stones, sticks, etc when he goes outside or when we walk. I read in Whole Dog Journal to try enzymes, didn't help, then tried Seacure, didn't help. He may be looking at a muzzle as well:(

Addy and the Muzzlers:)

Hi Addy,

So sorry to hear about Zoe's experiences. I know the feeling about letting them take them in the BACK -- what are they doing to them:eek::eek:. I have not heard any remarks they have had problems with Maddie, but I do know she doesn't like to be picked up especially by someone other than us--of course she does weigh in the 65 lb range so not likely someone would just pick her up. I do not know if they put her up on a table to take her blood or maybe just work with her on the floor (I hope this is what they do), but she comes out not really excited to see me; so it must not be so bad. She didn't spend a lot of time at a vet's office before all this joyful :D testing started.

I hope your working with her and the muzzle helps. Dogs sense when we are tense so things happen--doesn't the Dog Whisper talk about the way we hold the leash and the tension goes right down it to the dog--haha!!! If the vet's office help are nervous then it causes Zoe to be nervous and they only know one way to defend themselves--with their mouth--poor thing:(.

Take care!! I love the Addy and the Muzzlers---cute!!!

Hi Marie,

You are so right, if they seem tentative, Zoe senses it. She seems to respond better to the male vets and male techs rather than the female. They seem more self assured with her and then she is fine. Unfortunetly, her IMS is female and I can only find female IMS vets. We don't have many in Milwaukee.:(

I have been following your thread too, thanks for posting and for the positive vibes:)

Dear Andy
So sorry to hear about poor Zoe. I think with all the needles, pocking our poor little angel are being subjected to it is no wonder they are fearful of going to the vet. The last time I was at the IMO, Apollo let out such a scream and the fear in his eyes, tore me apart.
You might try having the muzzle at home, leaving it on the floor for her to sniff, but it on top of her nose, let her smell it, then slowly but it on. If they insist on the muzzle, maybe it should be you who does it and be her own muzzle. Give her a treat before and after if need be. I am going to fight not giving Apollo the rabies shot in September and I also do the titer test. These little guy's immune system is already been compromised by the cushing, with the skin sores, etc. so how are they going to be able to tolerate more shots? Maybe this might help.
love from Sonja and Apollo
p.s I am thinking about water therapy to strengthen Apollo's weak hind leg muscles. My husband suggested just filling up the bathtub and letting Apollo swim in it with my help. Any input from the rest of you?

Hi Addy,

I'm so sorry that poor Zoe is having to suffer through so many vet visits and so much poking and prodding. I do want to offer a bit of a different slant on the rabies vaccination question, though. Once Zoe becomes stabilized with her Cushing's treatment, I am not as certain as some other folks that you would not want to reconsider rabies vaccination, especially since she does appear to have some issues with snapping or biting.

It has been several years now since my own Cushpup was alive and we regularly visited our IMS. But his vaccination policy at that time was "middle-of-the road" and seemed pretty reasonable to me. Vaccinations of any type were withheld for dogs who were actively or acutely ill, and all vaccination protocols were tailored to the age, vaccination history, potential for exposure, and the lifestyle of any individual dog. But since my own Cushpup was relatively young and very active outdoors in areas frequented by dogs and other wildlife, once he was stabilized on trilostane, our vet did not discourage us from vaccinating for specific illnesses for which he was most at risk.

From some experiences of my own with human organ transplant patients, I've been told that people who are chronically immunosuppressed may actually be more aggressively targeted to received certain vaccinations because they are even more at risk to develop these illnesses than the general population. Of course, there are many individual factors to consider, including timing and stability of treatment. Also, vaccines based on killed viruses may be acceptable for immunosuppressed patients whereas vaccines that use live virus may never be OK, or can only be used in certain situations.

I know that humans are not dogs, but these same principles make sense to me. And that is why I personally do not feel comfortable with extreme positions on either end: that all dogs should be given every type of vaccine available, or that no dog who has ever been diagnosed with a medical condition should ever receive a vaccine of any kind. For my own dog, I would want to weigh the relative risks and benefits of any specific vaccine or disease.

I do believe that canine rabies vaccine is readily available in the form of killed virus. And in many states, vets are now able to offer it in the form of three-year protection in order to keep from having to be given annually. So if your own vet does not think there is any reason why Zoe would not be a vaccination candidate once her Cushing's is under control -- you might want to revisit the question, both to potentially increase her own level of protection and also to minimize the concerns that others might have about handling her.

Marianne

Thank you Marianne,

I did not know you could get rabies vacine killed virus. I thought it was always live. That is good to know. I will look into that.

I understand your explanation. I have to weigh the risks of her biting someone and being put in quarantine verses how sick will the vacine make her.

She really is so very sweet and tries so hard for me. I feel so badly she is so scared and thinks she has to use her mouth in those situations. I had worked so very hard for these 3 years I have shared my life with her to build her confidence and make her less fearful. It is hard to see her take a step backward, we have worked so hard and come so far from those first days she came to her forever home.

Aw darn, now I'm crying thinking about it. I sure wish I wasn't such a sentimental sap:mad:

Anyway, thanks for your input, it is good to hear and consider:)

Addy

Hi Addy,
I once had an older Lhasa (Bailee, pics in my album) that our vet named the "piranha Lhasa" :p He was a foster that I kept because he was a fierce biter. We knew we would never be able to find him a home. :( So he spent his retirement years with us. Between the vet and I we always managed to handle him without a muzzle. The vet techs would let me hold him while the vet or vet tech's had to do their job. She was a great and compassionate vet and she trusted that I would hold him well enough to keep him from biting her.

Grooming him was my biggest challenge, and yes I did get bit a few times. I would sweat bullets when I knew I had to clean his eyes and face.:p Maybe your vet would let you hold Zoe while they do what they need to do.