This is fabulous news Tina!!!! yay to both you and Jasper!
Now, you can hopefully breathe again. :)
hugs, have a good week,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin
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This is fabulous news Tina!!!! yay to both you and Jasper!
Now, you can hopefully breathe again. :)
hugs, have a good week,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin
Hooray for the kidney test, so pleased to hear that Tina!!!!! Booooo for the cholesterol/triglycerides! Had Jasper fasted for that? Not sure if it makes a difference but humans need to fast for 12 hrs for that test. Might pay to check?!? I guess they will redo those and his liver tests/bili when they recheck his renal function in a week? Are they checking his BP with the enalopril to make sure he is not going too low?
He probably just walking away from food as it is a change from his usual diet, picky pups :D He must be hungry as he goes back for the rest!
But all in all, I think that calls for a high paws five!! :D:D
Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
High five paws from me too, you needed some good news!!!
WOOHOO!! Way to go Jasper and Mom! :cool::cool::cool: That's a great report, Tina, even with the little "glitches". Keep up the good work you two!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang
Thanks everyone! Yes, I have been pretty happy. I almost hugged the little guy to death the day we got the results back! ;)
Lori - his thyroid level has always been normal in the past. It was last checked when we were ruling out things before he was diagnosed with Cushings. On 5/25/12 the T4 was 1.5, ref range 0.4-4.0 ug/dL. I looked through all the labwork that I have and I don't see that it has been checked since that time. Do you think I should ask about re-checking it?
Trish - yes, Jasper was fasted for a little over 12 hrs for the chem profile, thanks for asking about that. It was the first thing that my vet verified when she called with the results. So the triglycerides were that high on a fasted sample. :( Tomorrow he will just be getting a renal profile drawn rather than a full chem panel. My vet said that it would be too soon to see any changes in the triglycerides or bilirubin yet. His Alk phos and ALT have been elevated due to the Cushings and now due to taking the Dex. She said taking steroids causes the liver enzymes to be elevated. So I am not sure that we will see much improvement there. I am hoping once we get the kidney stuff under control, we can talk about maybe starting him on Denamarin to help with that. I don't know how that will affect his kidney issues, it may be contraindicated. I will need to find out about that. And as far as the blood pressure, before he started on the Enalapril I asked my vet about that. She said it would have minimal effects on his BP, could maybe lower it by only 10 points, so she said that would be ok. I probably should ask what the signs of low BP would be, just in case. Thanks for mentioning that also. :)
I will get a copy of the chem profile from 2/7 tomorrow when I take him in, so I can see the specific results and post the numbers.
Jasper seems to be doing pretty good I think. (Do I dare say it?). He is still doing the walking away from his food while eating thing at most meals. I don't know if this is due to poor appetite, or what. He acts hungry when I put the food down, but after eating about half of it, he walks away a few times while chewing. So far he has always gone back and finished, but just eats kind of slow. This morning was the worst, I had to encourage him to finish, but he did thank goodness.
So he is hanging in there. He has been getting the full dose of Enalapril since last Friday, so it will be almost a full week when he gets the renal values re-checked. So all fingers and paws crossed that they will all still be good!
Hugs to all,
Tina and Jasper
Since it has been normal in the past I would probably just keep an eye on it. My feeble mind forgot that Jasper is a mini schnauzer and this breed is prone to elevations in the triglycerides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tina
You're doing a great job, Tina!!!
Hi Tina,
Just wanted to comment on the food and walking away while eating. I'm not sure if this is a huge change or not for Jasper, but Fraser has pretty much done that his entire life! He is not exactly what one would call "motivated" by food, and often has to be encouraged to finish. In fact, it was when he needed no encouragement for a few months that i realised something was actually going on - this was the early cushiness rearing it's head. Now that he is right again, he will find the perfect bit of food in his bowl, pick it out and chew it up properly before swallowing, then i his own time return to his bowl to hunt up the next "perfect" morsel. Dinner can take 20-30 minutes sometimes! (or even longer if he gets a sense I might be trying to rush him or go out somewhere)
Might it be now that Jasper is not ravenously hungry, that he is instead savouring his food? or perhaps even that he just doesn't like it and only is eating it grudgingly to please you? Just some thoughts, but I would think that even if it is taking time, as long as he is not off food completely he should be fine. Just watch out for the pancreatitis with the higher fat kidney food.
Glad about those kidney results though!
Hi Tina
So pleased Jasper is still doing well!! I will be waiting for the news on the latest blood tests with fingers crossed.
Flynn can be slow sometimes too when he eats, especially if it is food he is not that keen on like his bisuits. He will eat all the good part of the meal, ie meat and leave some of the biscuits but goes back and eats them later. I know he is off colour when he does not even want the meat!
Hope your day goes well!
Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hi Tina,
I'm so glad the report is as good as it is! YAY, Jasper and Mom! :cool::cool::cool:
Just navel gazing and found this tidbit so I thought I'd share. Is it possible that something is affecting Jasper's sense of taste? Maybe the meds? It could be that he eats until he no longer feels really hungry but the food itself has little taste to him so he isn't motivated to finish it - kind of like chewing cardboard. ;)
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang
Jasper had his blood drawn for the renal profile tonight as scheduled. We should have the results late tomorrow. Everyone at the office said that they thought he was looking good, and seemed to be feeling good. :)
When we got home I figured he would be pretty hungry since it was later than he usually eats. He seemed hungry but when I put the bowl down he just looked at it and stepped back. He wouldn't even start eating. He took a few morsels from my hand but that was it. He wouldn't even eat with encouragement this time. Over the next half hour I heard him go and eat maybe 3 or 4 bites, maybe about 1/4 of what I put in his bowl. I wondered if the fish oil that I mix with his food was possibly causing him to not want to eat, even though he has always liked it before. I got him to eat about 1/4 cup of the food with no fish oil, but then he wouldn't eat any more of that either. The rest of the food is sitting in his dish, and it has been over 2 hrs now. He is sleeping on the couch.
I held the Enalapril tonight. I am not sure if it can be given on an empty or mostly empty stomach. Also, before we started it, my vet said that if he had any drop in appetite to stop the medication. She said that decreased appetite is a sign that the kidneys aren't happy. So I don't know if that is what is going on now or not. It's hard to say, because the Addison's and cortisol issues can cause loss of appetite also. We had so much trouble with that before. He was doing so well on the low fat i/d food before, I am just worried it is the k/d food, and the novelty is wearing off.
Leslie, it does seem like maybe the food doesn't taste good to him now. And Naomi, this is a change for him. When he is feeling good and all is normal with his eating, he usually eats steadily and enthusiastically until the meal is gone. He has never been ravenous or snarfing down his food, but he always finished all at once.
So I guess I will go and pick up the food dish for tonight, it doesn't look like he is going to eat any more. Poor Shelby has been confined to the living room this whole time so she doesn't eat it. :( If I can't get him to eat in the morning, I am going to hold the Enalapril then also. I will talk to my vet tomorrow. I don't know what she will say because I don't think we have much flexibility with his food, and that is a big concern.
I will keep you all posted. Thanks so much for all the positive words and support, it means a lot.
Hugs,
Tina and Jasper
Hi Tina
Has Jasper's appetitie gone off only since the enalopril started? I wonder if that is making him a bit queasy? Is he doing any lip smacking that could indicate nausea? Maybe it is the pill upsetting him. Be good to hear what your vet says tomorrow about this, can you try putting something nice and smelly on it to make it more tasty for him, like tuna juice? Or on second thoughts that could be too salty.
Jasper, now you be a good boy and go eat your dinner!!!
Have a good night you two!
Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Well this morning now he won't eat at all. Took a couple of kibbles from my hand and that is it. :(
Trish, yes, it seems that his appetite issues this go around have started since we started the Enalapril, but he was switched to the prescription k/d kidney diet around the same time also. He started the Enalapril at half dose on 1/31, and was transitioned to the k/d beginning 1/26 and was on full k/d diet by 2/1 pm meal. He first started acting finicky with the food on 2/5, with the walking away behavior. It has been intermittent since that time, where some meals he will eat normally, but even when hesitating, etc., he would always finish. The last couple of days the problems have increased, and now this morning won't eat at all. He has not been doing any lip smacking that I have noticed.
When he went out this morning, he had a poo that was partially weird looking with some mucous. So I wonder if he is starting with colitis. I think that would surely affect the appetite. I gave him a dose of metronidazole that I have on hand, and will talk to the vet today to see what she thinks. I sure don't want him to break with full on colitis. I held the Enalapril this morning also, not sure if I can give it on an empty stomach. Thank goodness he isn't scheduled for his Dex today. He seems to be drinking ok.
Thanks for your feedback Trish. I will check in later after I talk to my vet.
Tina and Jasper
Tina, will Jasper eat other foods? If you cooked up some chicken and rice would he eat that? Is it just his the kibble or all food?
Wondering the same thing now too. is it maybe just that he hates the K/D? especially if he is drinking fine. Sometimes the mucousy stools can be just not enough food/bulk in the system. A bit of chicken breast might be worth trying.
I would definitely try the chicken/rice mixture or any other foods that you think he will eat.
Hoping Jasper's appetite picks up real soon.
Hi Tina,
I have been so out of the loop here, I had to go back and refresh my memory on what's been going on with Jasper. So much has happened that I'm still not sure I understand everything, like why is Jasper taking Enalapril and why is he on a seriously protein restricted diet? It looks like Jasper has normal, normal BUN, creatinine and phosphorus levels but because the protein creatinine ratio was much higher in January, she put Jasper on K/D food which he doesn't seem to like too much. I can't say that I blame him. I'd be very concerned about putting my dog on such a very low protein diet without knowing that his kidney function is seriously impaired and if I were at that point with one of my dogs, I'd try to make my own food as opposed to the crappy quality ingredients Hills uses. Please check out these excerpts as well as others on the Dogaware site. Lots of excellent information there.
Quote:
Pet Food Safety: Dietary Protein by Dorothy LaFlamme, DVM, PhD, Dipl ACVN
"Summary and Conclusions: Based on a comprehensive review, there remains no evidence that dietary protein causes kidney damage, or any other adverse effects, in healthy dogs. Even in dogs with chronic kidney disease, dietary protein does not appear to contribute to kidney damage. However, in chronic kidney disease, there can be an accumulation of byproducts of protein metabolism, which may contribute to uremic signs. Hence, in those patients, dietary protein restriction may be of benefit. On the other hand, dietary protein is important to support normal protein turnover and maintain lean body mass. Healthy, aging dogs have an increased requirement for dietary protein. When insufficient protein is provided it can aggravate the age-associated loss of lean body mass and may contribute to earlier mortality. Unless medicatlly indicated, intake of dietary protein should not be restricted."
http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneyprotein.htmlQuote:
The Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal Function by Kenneth C. Bovee, DVM, MMedSc
"Morris subsequently developed, produced, and sold a low-protein diet, KD, for dogs with renal failure. He and others were influenced by the erroneous work hypertrophy concept for urea excretion advanced by Addis. While experimental or clinical data were never published to support the value of this or other diets, the concept was broadly accepted without challenge in the veterinary literature." This article talks about the history of protein restriction, and about 10 recent experimental studies that have failed to provide evidence of the benefit of reduced dietary protein to influence the course of renal failure.
Also see Influence of Dietary Protein on Renal Function in Dogs by the same author, which concludes, "These results do not support the hypothesis that feeding a high protein diet had a significant adverse effect on renal function or morphology."
You mentioned that a urine culture was done on January 25th which was several days after the protein creatinine ratio was done. This is a bit ass backwards since you want to make sure there is no active urinary inflammation/infection before doing a UPC as that would falsely elevate the ratio and I'm not talking small numbers. Unless I missed it, and that's completely possible, I don't see where you ever posted the results of the urine culture. Can you post those results now? If there was any blood/bacteria identified in Jasper's urine, you might as well throw out the last UPC and maybe even ask for your money back.
Glynda
Darl what has the vet said? Hopefully they will allow you to give her some tastier food. Mr Flynn would turn his nose up at a kibble diet too! Fingers crossed to hear good results tonight xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hi Everyone,
Sorry to follow up so late, the evening got away from me. I forgot to say in my last post that I considered giving Jasper the bland hamburger or chicken and rice diet, but wanted to check with my vet first to make sure it was ok with the kidney issues. I figured he would probably eat that. She verified tonight that it was ok.
We had a long talk after I got home from work. Before I even mentioned that he had an episode of mucous in his poo, she questioned whether he might be getting ready to break with colitis, as poor appetite and going off his food has happened in the past before colitis has reared its ugly head. After I told her about the icky poo, she immediately agreed that this was what was likely causing the lack of appetite (rather than the Enalapril or something else), since it has happened before. She said it was perfect that I started the metronidazole this morning, that is exactly what she would recommend. (Yay, I made the right decision after I debated about it this morning!). She also said to give him a dose of Cerenia to help with the nausea and then feed him the bland diet for a couple of days.
His follow up kidney profile was all within normal limits, which was a relief. So we will continue the Enalapril at 1/2 tab twice a day.
So I ran out to the store to get some chicken breasts to cook up for his dinner. In the past I have always fed him hamburger/rice mixture, but since everyone on the site has mentioned chicken, I figured I would try that. My vet said either would be ok. It was snowing here during the evening, and in the few minutes that I was in the store, my whole vehicle was covered and the roads got a little dicey!
He ate the chicken and rice just fine tonight, so hopefully we have nipped the colitis in the bud.
Glynda, thank you so much for your post and all of your information and feedback. I will need to do some checking and try to answer your specific questions/concerns tomorrow, I am pretty tired right now. I will say that the urine culture was negative, I probably just forgot to post that. The k/d food and the Enalapril were prescribed in agreement with and based on the recommendations of the IMS that my vet has been consulting with. They have diagnosed Jasper with PLN, protein losing nephropathy.
I had read a bit about the diet recommendations that you posted from the dogaware site, I believe Lori provided the link previously. I got pretty overwhelmed reading everything, along with trying to understand all that is going on with Jasper now. The excerpts that you have posted have made me feel quite worried about it all now. I agree, I don't like the ingredients in Hills and have told my vet that on more than one occasion. She said she doesn't necessarily like Science Diet, but said she feels strongly about the science behind their prescription diets. She has been pretty firm about that.
Again, I will do the best I can to answer the rest of your questions and clarify things better tomorrow. Things have been quite complicated for Jasper, there has been a lot going on. Thank you all for the support!
Tina and Jasper
Hi Tina,
I'm so glad that Jasper is eating again, and hopefully things will remain settled down for you and your little guy!
Boy, the topic of canine renal management is definitely a contradictory one. And one of the chief difficulties is the lack of controlled experimentation. There have been lots of studies on humans and rats, but not so many on dogs and cats. So it is difficult to find substantiated evidence. However, here are some links that I had found a couple of years ago and kept bookmarked. I do think the sources are quite credible. And if I'm understanding the discussion correctly, the opinion among many specialists is that from a physiological standpoint, treatment (dietary and/or drug) really does seem warranted for dogs exhibiting persistent levels of high proteinuria on the basis of UPC results, regardless of whether or not they show other symptoms of renal disease. The first link is to a "2004 Concensus Statement of the American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine: Assessment and Management of Proteinuria in Dogs and Cats." Even though this statement is now almost a decade old, I still see reference made to the recommendations:
http://cms.evsrl.it/SocSpec/SiteTail...y.aspx?id=2200
The second is a round-table discussion among veterinary renal experts ("Proteinura and Renal Disease") sponsored and published in 2005 by IDEXX Laboratories. This is a most informative "read," and further endorses the basic recommendations of the ACVIM Concensus Statement. It has an especially interesting section re: the advisability and degree of dietary changes depending upon patient symptomology.
http://www.idexx.com/pubwebresources...ound-table.pdf
Lastly, here's a 2009 article from the "DVM360" magazine that discusses diagnostic and treatment issues associated with hypertension and proteinuria in dogs with renal disease:
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm.../detail/591639
Here's a quote from this last article that is a pretty good summary of the train of thought represented in all of these links, and I will look for even more recent articles when I get the chance. But for what it's worth, I think your IMS has a significant amount of professional support regarding the advisability of dietary and/or drug intervention in the face of persistent proteinuria to the extent that Jasper has exhibited. However, I don't know the specific profile of the food you're giving Jasper. As Glynda says, it may be that it is more severely protein-restricted than these panels would recommend in his situation. I especially encourage you to read the IDEXX round-table discussion in that regard, because I believe they suggest only mild/moderate protein restriction early on for a dog without other symptoms of renal disease. It's a fine line because you want to keep up with the protein that is being lost, but you don't want to cause additional renal damage from excessive protein leakage into the kidneys.
MarianneQuote:
In addition to being a diagnostic marker of the severity of renal disease, renal proteinuria may be a mediator of glomerular and tubular injury. Recent findings have demonstrated that proteinuria is associated with increased risk of developing progressive CKD in dogs.
In addition, studies have shown that therapies that reduce the magnitude of proteinuria often are renoprotective. Proteinuric renal disease is often associated with systemic hypertension, which can conversely exacerbate renal proteinuria and therefore, it is difficult at times to separate the effects of high systemic and intraglomerular pressures and proteinuria.
Sweetie, you have a lot on your plate and I dont want you to now get stressed out about having to think about cooking every day for Jasper. So maybe we can find a different solution for you.
I do know that when Zoe first had her outbreak of colitis years ago, we tried the dry prescription ID kibble. She hated it and it made everything worse. The ingredients in the canned ID were a tiny bit better so I switched to the canned and she did better on it, not perfect but much better.
So my question is, does the KD come in canned food? If not is there another kidney type food that might come in canned?
So, I am off to check out that old website of Hills and I'll be back:D
Canned KD:
Dry KD:Quote:
Water, Egg White, Corn Starch, Pork Liver, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, and citric acid), Sucrose, Flaxseed, Dried Whey, Chicken Liver Flavor, Calcium Carbonate, Calcium Sulfate, Caramel Color, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Potassium Chloride, Magnesium Oxide, Iodized Salt, Taurine, Ferrous Sulfate, Ascorbic Acid (source of vitamin C), Zinc Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Beta-Carotene, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Manganous Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin, Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite.
IMO -If I had to choose between the dry and wet, I'd choose the wet. I would also ask your vet what is plan B if the KD continues to aggrevate and flare Jasper's colitis because I think that could be a distinct possibilty.Quote:
Ingredients
Brewers Rice, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Dried Egg Product, Flaxseed, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken Liver Flavor, Powdered Cellulose, Lactic Acid, Calcium Carbonate, Dried Beet Pulp, L-Lysine, Potassium Chloride, Potassium Citrate, Choline Chloride, Iodized Salt, Calcium Sulfate, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Vitamin E Supplement, L-Threonine, Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Tryptophan, Magnesium Oxide, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols & Citric Acid, Phosphoric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.
Hang in there sweetie, we are all here to help and support:):):)
Wow, gag-city!!! Those ingredients do sound awful! :eek: :(
FWIW, that IDEXX round-table article suggested that wet food is better than dry for dogs with renal issues, if it is affordabe to the owner. If not, they suggested adding extra liquid to the dry food.
I just checked the analysis for the Hills dry, and it seems like it has a really high fat content. That might be aggravating Jasper's GI tract, too. I just took a quick glance at the Royal Canin ingredients and they seemed a bit more palatable, and also had a lower fat content. Still awfully low protein, though. Maybe you could augment these low-protein diets with a bit of lean, high-quality homecooked protein (like chicken breast). Of course, the ratio would be very important and would probably take a nutritionist to figure out so as not to be overdoing the protein. Maybe some other folks here with renal experience will have some more thoughts.
Marianne
Edited to add that I now see Royal Canin has at least two renal diets: one ("LP") for later-stage, and one ("MP") that is labelled for treatment of early-stage renal issues in small and medium breed dogs. The MP has a higher protein content, so that sounds as though it might be the ticket for Jasper. Here's a link with nutritional info for the kibble: http://www.petfooddirect.com/product...d-Dry-Dog-Food. It also comes in a canned form with very different ingredients: http://www.petfooddirect.com/Product...anned-Dog-Food.
That is great news on the Royal Canine Marianne. :):) The only problem I found for me with the RC prescription foods when I considered them for Zoe was that the vets did not carry them in Milw so I would have to order on line. Hopefully that is not the case anymore or for Tina's area. That was five years ago so I know things can change:):):):):):)
Tina was stressed out about having to research a different food for Jasper along with everything else she is worrying about so she was hoping the KD would work temporarily until things calmed down for both of them. I am concerned though that it already flared his colitis.
We're trying to give you options, sweetie:):):):):) Aren't you glad you dont have to work today?
You are doing great, Tina. Believe in yourself:):):):)
Marianne and Addy, (((((((Hugs)))))), and a million more. I am sitting here with tears of gratitude. You guys read my mind. I don't know how to thank you for all the information, links, resources, feedback, suggestions and support.
I just scanned all of the information and wanted to post real quick to let you know that I will be back on a bit later to give it a more thorough read and check out all the links. My Grandmother is in assisted living and they called this morning, so I need to run out there for a bit and see what is going on with her. Hopefully it won't be anything major. I wanted you both to know that I had seen the information, and am so grateful. Yes, Addy, very glad to be off today so I can do some research on this. Again, I don't know how to thank you, I am so worried about all of this. :confused:
Jasper ate his chicken and rice just fine this morning. Just gave him all his meds. :)
So I will be back in a little while, hopefully a short while.
Love and hugs from me and Jasper
Tina, I hope everything is OK with your grandmother! Good grief, but you have a lot on your plate right now!!
Just wanted to pop back to say that I hadn't noticed earlier that Glynda's Dogaware article also contains a section with a table comparing ingredients of different commercial Rx renal diets, including the Hills and the two Royal Canins. In this portion of the article, Mary Strauss (the author) does address the probable need for moderate protein restriction for dogs exhibiting significant proteinuria. You may already have seen this portion of the article, Tina, but I'll give you the specific link for it here:
http://dogaware.com/health/kidneyprescription.html
The question I have, though, is what actually constitutes "mild" or "moderate" protein restriction?? I dunno what the actual numbers should be. As far as the Royal Canin foods, I got all excited because I saw that a number of them are actually carried in-store in Petsmart, including the more highly restricted LP versions. However, it doesn't look as though they carry the MP version. But the other interesting thing is that according to Mary Strauss' chart, the "LP" canned food (which apparently Petsmart carries) actually has a higher protein level than the MP dry food. So go figure. Maybe you can mix-and-match foods in order to come up with a combo that is palatable and healthier for Jasper.
Don't worry, Tina! We'll keep working on this and come up with a good answer!
Tina.. I hope your weekend gets better... too much stress for one girl to handle!! :(
Hope your Grandmother is alright, sweetie. Let us know!
Hi Tina
Hope the day has improved and your Grandmother is OK. So happy Jasper ate his chicken, good boy!! Yay about the results too :D:D so hard trying to figure out dietary stuff, I am reading these links with interest too, so thanks girls for digging them out.
xxxxx
Hi Everyone,
Thank you all for the concern and good wishes for my Grandmother. She is fine, thankfully. She lives in a very nice assisted living facility, and does well there for the most part. Lately she has been out of touch with reality quite a bit, and today was a bit more agitated than usual about things. I spent a few hours there with her, she was able to calm down and is fine now. So relieved, as I don't need something else to worry about right now!
Marianne, yes, I had briefly looked at that table in the article, but need to take a closer look, as well as checking out all of the links you provided. And what constitutes mild, moderate or extreme protein restriction is a question I have as well. Without numbers to go by, I am not sure I know what I am looking for.
Back when my vet said we needed to start Jasper on a kidney diet, she offered the Hills k/d, Purina NF and Royal Canin as options. She said she didn't have a preference, and that we would need to see if Jasper liked one more than another. (She didn't have a sample of Royal Canin, and he didn't show a preference between the other two). When I did a bit of research at that time, I tried several times to read about the Royal Canin but the website wasn't working properly and I couldn't access the veterinary diets for some reason. From the link you provided today, it does look like the ingredients are better in their kidney diets. And I think they were lower in fat than the k/d if I remember correctly. I need to check that more carefully.
I also need to go back through Glynda's post to see what other questions or concerns she mentioned that I need to address.
My little guy ate his chicken and rice again tonight. I wish it contained everything needed to feed all the time, and my worries would be over!
I think I am going to work on the reading tomorrow when my mind is a bit more refreshed. Thank you again for all of the help, I am so worried, and all of the support is so comforting. I have said it before, but I don't know what I would be doing without all of you.
Love and hugs,
Tina and Jasper
Tina, I'm so relieved to hear that your Grandmother seems to be settled down again. It's clear that you are just as kind and good to her as you are to Jasper!!
One thought that's come to me about our dietary questions is that if you wished, you could email Mary Strauss directly to ask her opinion as to what percentage of dietary protein would constitute a mildly or moderately reduced intake. She has written a similar article regarding lowfat diets for dogs prone to pancreatitis, and I emailed her directly with some questions about fish oil supplementation for my Peg (her email address is at the botton of the articles). To my surprise, she responded promptly! She openly admits she is not a vet, but as we all can see, she does cull the research in order to arrive at her recommendations. It is just a thought, but if you tell her Jasper's UPC result and situation, she might have some specific comments about percentages and also even fresh food additives that would be good in the event you stick with a highly restricted commercial food. If what she says makes sense to you, then you can run the recommendations past your own vet as you make your decisions.
Also, as you wade through the research links, bear in mind that I believe the recommendations re: protein restriction for dogs experiencing renal dysfunction are different depending upon the presence or absence of proteinuria. So even though protein restriction is no longer thought to be necessary or helpful in some situations, the recommendations are different when a dog is spilling a significant amount of protein in his/her urine.
My continuing best wishes to you!!
Marianne
Yay your Grandmother is ok and double YAY for Jasper eating his chicken!! Hopefully this means this week is going to be a good one for you two!! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Mary Strauss will for sure answer you. She has always promptly answered my questions over the years even when we first were not sure of Zoe's diagnosis, she tried to help me. She has always been great about that.:):):):):)
Marianne, that is a wonderful suggestion. I have also read the protein in urine can be from a high protein diet and changing the diet will help lower the protein, depends on how high it is and what the other kidney values are. I have to address that with Zoe now, we have to cut back on her protein (hubby has been overly generous with the chicken)
Gotta run, my hours are all messed up this week so I can come home early for Zoe, I wont even get lunch:(:( I'm hungry already ust thinking about it;)
Hi Tina, I'm getting caught up on what is going on with Jasper and you . Wow, such a lot to take in. I really do think that people on here should just be given a degree in all things dog related. LOL Amazing the amount of research one has to do to figure out the most ordinary of things.
I'm glad to hear that your grandmother has settled down. I know how hard that is since my dad was in an assisted living with much the same issues, except his was alzheimers that got him going on bad days. Some days were better than others, but it's all emotionally exhausting.
You're doing so awesome with Jasper. Just remember to take a few moments and enjoy Jasper and Shelby. Give yourself those moments to sort of regroup.
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly muffin
Tina!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I see you online :D, hows it all going, is Jasper behaving and eating his dinner? So nice to see you, but I guess with you online at this time of night you are doing a potty break?!
Hi Everyone,
Holy smokes, I had to go to page 3 to find our thread! Looks like lots of new posts and new members, will need to try to get caught up over the next couple of days, I hope.
I just want to check in since it has been a while since I posted last. I have done some research on the food issue, called both Royal Canin and Hills. Will have to let you know what they said later, but talked to my vet at length and we decided to switch Jasper to the Royal Canin Renal MP food. Since he was already off the Hills k/d and on the chicken and rice, I thought it would be a good time if we were going to switch. Started mixing in 25/75 kibble/chicken rice mixture yesterday pm. I am praying he tolerates it. I have done tons of reading at all the links that were provided. (Thank you guys!). I have not had a chance to email Mary Strauss, but that is a great idea, although I think I got some of the food questions answered between the tech at Royal Canin and my vet. Again, will go into that on a later post when I have more time.
The latest with Jasper is that his water intake has decreased significantly. At first I was relieved, he had gone down to about 4 cups/day from 6, but now 2 days ago he only drank 2 cups in 24 hrs, then yesterday drank only 1 cup! Today it looks like he is on track for maybe 1 or 1 1/2 cups. I measure from am to am. I called my vet earlier today (wednesday) to let her know because I am worried about that now, due to the kidney issues. She was not real concerned at this point, said if it continues till the end of the week to call her back, and I guess she will probably want to see him. I don't know why his intake would have decreased so dramatically, from about 6 cups a day to this, that is a big difference. I can't imagine it would be only diet related. His pooping has also decreased, he is pooing only about once a day now, and not a very big amount. :( I am hoping it is because of the chicken and rice diet and will increase once I get him eating more renal diet, but she said to monitor that also. Overall he seems to be feeling ok for the most part, but not as perky as usual. Gosh, it is always something.
We are under another blasted winter storm warning, and I am up late working on a project for work. It is supposed to start snowing 2 inches per hour about mid morning, so wanted to get on top of things so I can leave work early if needed so I don't get stuck there!
Will post more later, hopefully will have some unplanned free time tomorrow afternoon. I guess I should say this afternoon now. Yikes, better try to get a few hours of shut eye. :o
Hugs to all,
Tina and Jasper
Hi Trish!!!!! Looks like you have signed off now, but yes, had a potty break about an hour and a half ago and decided to work for a bit on some work that I brought home. I posted an update in my last post, and am going to try to get some sleep now. I read your update on Flynn, I think it sounds great overall!! I will post on your thread when I get a chance. Hugs to you and Flynn. :p
Tina, thanks so much for this update. And I just wanted to tell you that my Peg's pooping decreased substantially (both amount and frequency) when she was on the homemade chicken/rice after her acute pancreatitis attack. So I think that part of things is to be expected and nothing to worry about.
Marianne
A decrease in the number of times a pup poops can be a good sign. The more filler, or useless stuff in feed, the more they are going to poop because their bodies can't use the things in the feed - they are only fillers. The higher the quality of ingredients the more they are apt to actually be absorbed and used by the body so there is less waste to get rid off. If you feed twice a day and your pup poops 4 times a day, they are not keeping much of that feed inside - it is all useless, a waste for the system so it is eliminated. If we were to eat a diet of pine bark, peanut hulls, and chicken fat we would poop a whole lot more than we would on a diet of pine nuts, peanuts, and chicken. ;)
Ugh, hope you didn't get hit too hard with that winter storm!
How is Jasper's water intake today?
Take care, hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin
Hi Everyone,
Wow, this sure has been a busy place. It will take me all evening to get caught up on everyone!
I will stop back later to post an update on Jasper, right now I want to post a very belated response to Glynda's questions about Jasper's urine UPCR and culture done in January. I wanted to make sure I had everything straight.
Yes, the urine culture was done on 1/24 after the UPCR which was done on 1/16. I had read that a culture should be done first to make sure there is not a UTI present, just like you mentioned Glynda. I remember asking my vet about this because I was concerned about the results being affected, and she did say that before she she sent in the urine for the UPCR, she spun it down and there was no blood or wbc's present.Quote:
Originally Posted by lulusmom
We got a sterile urine sample for culture after the results of the UPCR came back elevated to make sure there was no infection. I believe she realized this should have been done first, but also said that since there was no blood or wbc's present in the UPCR sample, she felt an infection was not likely. The culture was negative. I am thinking we can feel safe that he didn't have an infection at the time of the UPCR if the urine culture from a sterile sample was negative a week later. Does anyone think there should be any concerns about that?? I am just thinking that if he had a UTI, it would not have cleared up on its own.
Glynda, I think I addressed your other questions in a previous post. Thank you so much for your feedback and concern for my boy, I really appreciate it! Please let me know if you have additional thoughts.
I will be back a bit later to post an update on Jasper and what I found out from my research about the renal prescription diets on my calls to Hills and Royal Canin.
Tina and Jasper