10 year old female beagle just diagnosed with Cushings - Ginger has passed

Hello. We have a 10 year old female beagle just diagnosed with Cushings Disease. We just started her on Lysodren yesterday. So far we have not see a difference in her eating or water consumption or panting. I know it might take a few days. My question is do any of you others out there fighting this notice that your dog snorts when she pants? It seems my dog gets worse with the pants by about 4:00 pm every day and when she pants she then starts snorting and is almost uncontrollable. Is this not uncommon? If any of you have experienced this and have found anything to help, please let me know. I am concerned about her so much! Thank you

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I have manually validated your membership so you can disregard the email we send asking you to validate.

Beagles are definitely a breed that is on the top five breeds that seem to predisposed to cushing's. I must warn you that we ask lots of questions and ask you to post test results but that's so that we are in a much better position to offer you more meaningful feedback. So let's get started so we can get to know your girl a lot better.

What were the circumstances that lead you and your vet to pursue a cushing's diagnosis. For instance, was it abnormal blood and urine tests, the symptoms you've already mentioned or both? Can you round up the tests that were done and post the results here for us? On the blood tests, we need only see the highs and lows, including the normal reference ranges. Does your dog have pituitary or adrenal dependent cushing's?

Since you are loading, I want to make sure that you have been properly counseled by your vet as possible adverse affects, what signs you need to be looking for so that you know when to stop dosing. I've included link below to Lysodren Loading Instructions and Related Tips. I highly recommend that you read it thoroughly, print it out and keep it handy for ready reference. Did your vet give you prednisone to administer in the event your dog is showing signs of overdose? If not, please contact your vet and get those pills immediately. How much does your dog weigh and what loading dose did your vet prescribe?

The average loading time at the maximum dose of 50mg per kg is 5 to 8 days. Most experienced vets will not give a client any more than eight days worth of doses. You need to be looking for a sign that your girl is loaded. That sign can be as subtle as a dog looking up at you before licking the bowl clean or finishing their food in less time than usual or walking away with food left in the bowl. My dogs were food driven so I didn't bother to measure their water intake. When you are loading two at the same time, it's a lot more difficult to measure water anyway. However, if you do notice a change in drinking and peeing habits, those can be a sign that you need to quit dosing. Optimum time for the first acth stimulation test is 48 hours after the last dose. The reason for that is that Lysodren has a cumulative effect for up to 48 hours so you want to try to do the stim test when cortisol will be it's lowest.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=181

The snorting you mention sounds like reverse sneezing and while this isn't a symptom commonly associated with cushing's, it could be that the same reason she is panting may be triggering this. Dogs with cushing's pant because 1) they become much more sensitive to heat 2) high levels of cortisol messes with fat metabolism and as a result there is redistribution of fat to the thoracic area; 3) high levels of cortisol also causes muscle wasting so the combination of the last two puts more pressure on the diaphram. Allergies can cause reverse sneezing as can obesity. My mom overfeeds her dogs and when they get obese, they snort constantly. Her current dog is getting much better because I've taken charge of her feeding and she's lost weight. A lot of dogs with cushing's put on a lot of weight so if your girl is carrying a bit more than usual, you might find that problem resolves once you get her stabilized and can get the weight down.

Well I've probably got your head spinning so I'll stop here. I'm sure others will be dropping in to welcome you as well as ask any questions I may have forgotten. We do have Lysodren moms here who know the drug and have walked in your shoes....some of us twice. We'll be looking forward to hearing a lot more about your precious girl.

Glynda

I had noticed she was panting more than normal and she was developing a pot belly. The main thing I noticed was she was drinking much more water and needing out so often especially through the night. I searched the web and then called my vet to see if Cushings was possible. They did the test and it was confirmed. Her numbers were extremely high. I am not sure the exact numbers, but will try to get them when I can. They main thing is her snorting. I know it has to be wearing her out. She is a 13 inch beagle and weighs about 30 pounds. I know some of it is the water weight, but some is our lack of proper feeding. Our doctor told us she was not that much over weight, she has a lot of muscle and is short so she looks stalky. she has been spayed when she was 8 months old. She breaths very fast even when she is resting. I am hoping we start to see some improvement by tomorrow, for her sake. Does anyone out there know how long before her panting is more under control? Also what about life expectancy after diagnoses? Thank you any help is so appreciated.

is there any pain with this disease that the dog my be experiencing and do they have anything out there that would help settle her down when she gets panting so uncontrollably. She is also very restless at times like she is trying to get comfortable but cannot.
Is there a pill out there that could be prescribed that would help her rest easier? Thank you

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Some dogs take melatonin to help them in the evening. The panting usually will be lessened once the cortisol levels are lowered. They just feel so hot and uncomfortable, although not in pain usually. You'll notice that she probably likes to lay in cooler spots, like a bare floor or near a window where it might be cooler. This most often goes away. It just takes getting through this load first and foremost.

Right now the most important thing is just watching to see when the load is done.

Sharlene and molly muffin

Okay. Thank you so much. My heart just breaks for her, and we want to make sure she is not in pain.

Also. she is on 500 mg tablets. 3/4 of a tablet twice a day

She's on a healthy loading dose of 55mg/kg. Recommended loading is 25mg/kg to 50mg/kg. Your vet rounded it to 55mg/kg for ease of dosing. The goal of loading is to give very large doses of Lysodren to effectively erode enough of the adrenal cortex tissue to ebb the flow of cortisol. Once you see signs of loading, that is usually the first day of improvements and they will continue from there.

You mention that your vet did a test and the numbers were really high. I would assume that the test was an acth stimulation test as the other test, the LDDS is a completely different test which does not have high numbers. An acth stimulation test does not tell you what form of the disease a dog has so additional tests, such as an abdominal ultrasound or an endogenous acth test, should have been done to make that determination. Did your dog have an increased appetite, any skin issues, thinning or loss of coat, weakness in hindquarters? I'm hoping the appetite is voracious because otherwise, it my be difficult for you to tell when loading has been achieved. Did your vet give you prednisone?

Glynda

No, he did not give us prednisone. I have a few left over from our regular vet to treat our girl for allergies, but he never mentioned it. Yes, her appetite is voracious!!! It has always been hard to fill her up. I figure that is just a hounds characteristic, but any more it is unbelievable!! Also she cannot get enough to drink. She will easily put away a gallon to a gallon and a half of water a day! No skin issues, she did shed like crazy this past summer and fall. I did not know of Chushings then or I might have caught it earlier. Yes, it was the acth test. She does has some weakness in her hindquarters. She hesitates to jump up on the couch and bed. I am hoping that will improve too with the medication.

Hi and welcome to you and your baby girl! :)

Did the vet tell you what to look for that would indicate it is time to stop the medicine and have an ACTH? Did the vet tell you what to look for that would indicate her cortisol had gone too low?

The panting is typically caused by the enlarged liver most cush pups have. Because they cannot process fats normally with the cortisol high, that fat gets redistributed in the body, pressing on the internal organs, including the lungs causing them to pant. Because the liver is working extra hard to handle the excess cortisol, it gets bigger also pushing on the lungs. As the cortisol comes back to a more normal level, these things should start to return to a more normal state as well.

Hang in there and keep talking to us, answering our questions and you will do just fine!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

Thank you so much. every little helps! All we are going by is what the vet has told us. It is helpful to talk with people that have, or are going through the same thing. We do not really understand the numbers the vet told us, perhaps you are more familiar with them. He did say they were high. I believe he said her starting number before the ACTH test was 48 and after it was 34. Do these seem extremely high and if so is it ever to a point that the numbers are so high nothing will help? Or, if they do to come down, is it possible we will have to repeat the loading phase for another eight days?

Welcome to the forum. Sorry your baby is having problems. I just wanted to add a few things to what the others said. Cushing's weakens the ligaments in their bodies, including the abdominal ones. So this also makes things shift around as their abdomen falls thus the pot belly. Also Cushing's dogs muscles are weakened by this disease, making it harder for them to breathe, as the muscles are not pushing air in and out normally. Some Cushing's dogs develop calcium deposits in their lungs also inhibiting normal breathing. If a dog is moving about and restless at nite, as I have found with my dog, it is usually uncontrolled cortisol, or they are uncomfortable because things have moved around inside them. Anytime a dog is having problems breathing they pant. I have put some really big cushy pillows on my bed for Tipper, when she gets uncomfortable she goes to the pillows. They must help relieve the pressure from whatever is bothering her. As far as pain goes, I am not aware of any except for arthritis and joint pain. Cortisol masks arthritis by keeping the inflammation down. When you control the cortisol with treatment, there is a chance of uncovering joint issues and or arthritis. They too can be treated, as I do that with my dog, she gets Adequan injections. This seems scary, lord knows we have all been there. You are in the very best place you could be to help your dog. There is a lot of experience on this forum. You are not alone, and we will help and guide you. We are all in this together, so with correct management your dog could live out it's natural life. It will get better as you learn everything you need to know. Blessings
Patti

Thank you Tipper's Mom.all of you have been very helpful. Her snorting usually does not start until about 4:00 pm and then ends about 8. She still pants, but is not so noisy. She is restless at night, but I do have pillows for her on my bed. The worst is the noisy snorting, but also her getting up all through the night to get a drink of water and go outside and pee. I understand this is part of it, but I have been concerned about the loud snorting when she pants, why it seems worse in the afternoon and early evening and the trembling. Thank you

Hi and welcome to you and your girl,

I have just a moment to post, and I wanted to provide you with a link, from our Resource Thread, that has excellent information about Lysodren: Lysodren loading Instructions and related tips

Please feel free to print anything out, and if you have any questions just ask! ;)

Hugs, Lori

Sometimes snorting and reverse sneezing can be from trachael issues. Cushings causes the cartlige to weaken and not hold it's been shape which collapses the trachea. My Tipper has it so that's how I know? She does do the snorting, and congested sounds from her throat. She used to have real breathing issues, and make so much noise? The Adequan shots have helped that a lot.It was so bad at one point she went to the hospital and had a scope run down her throat, and up her nose, they could not find anything. She starts honking too, and sort of hiccups at times and she panics as she cannot get air, and it scares the crap out of me. I hope you can get to the source of the problem. I would be looking for answers from an IMS. Is you dog standing or laying when this happens or both? Blessings
Patti

Thank you. Is it possible that the Lysodren will not work for our dog and they would have to try another medication? if they do what will the steps be? We are at the end of our third day and I really do not see difference. If fact her panting and snorting seem worse tonight. Thanks.

Sorry Gingerbread got a positive diagnosis for Cushings. My dog, (a mini schnauzer, almost 10) drank so much water and and panted all the time too! That was almost a year ago for us. Once your dog's medication begins to control her symptoms it will all begin to decrease.
It takes some time, each dog reacts differently but it all will subside. My dog weighed about 15 pounds and was drinking close to 50oz of water daily...it was unbelievable and I was so worried about her all the time, just the way you feel.
My dog is doing fine now. She still drinks a bit more than she used to in the past but it's normal now.
Before she was controlled she panted a lot and when she was resting she would breathe so rapidly, restless at night and moving around all the time. Right now she's sleeping here near me, resting comfortably and breathing normally.
So, your dogs symptoms are all very common to Cushings.
Things will get better! I still watch her like a hawk in case she gets any side effects and I still measure how much water she drinks each day because things can change and there may come a day when she needs an medication adjustment but for now it's going well and she's pretty close to being her normal self.
Hope that helps you feel better. The beginning is the roughest part.
Hoping Gingerbread's Lysodren treatment goes well and that she's doing better asap!

Barbara

Thank you Barbara! This is one of the hardest things I have ever gone through with her and not been able to help. I worry she will have a heart attack if the excessive panting and snorting continue. Perhaps I am being over worrisome. Also, is there ever a time when their numbers are too high that no medication will help? It seems like the vet said her numbers were 48 per ACTH test and 34 after or vise versa.

Hi,

Lysodren seldom works within the first few days to where we can see it. In fact, what you are looking for during this phase, which is called loading or induction, are very subtle changes. It might be something as simple as looking up from his feed bowl when before he didn't pause til the bowl was empty; or drinking 2 oz less water today than he did yesterday. You are a LONG way away from needing to worry if Lyso is working or not. ;)

I asked earlier if the vet told you what to look for that would mean it is time to stop the med and do an ACTH?

I also asked did your vet tell you what to look for that would mean the cortisol was too low - a life-threatening situation?

PLEASE take time to read very carefully the link Lori gave you about Lysodren Loading and Tips. If anything you read there is different from what your vet told you, please let us know ASAP. These are very powerful drugs and it is up to us to make sure our babies are doing like they should be while taking them...so educating ourselves about the disease and the treatment being used on our babies is critical. ;)

Keep watching your baby like a hawk for any changes. If you wonder about something, please don't hesitate to ask. :)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

Okay, thanks Leslie. Yes, the vet did tell me what to look for and I did read the link that Lori posted. I guess I am just worrying too much maybe. I think I am scared I will not see a change at all in her during these 8 days of loading and won't know what to do next. She just looks at me when she gets panting and snorting so hard like she wants me to fix it and I can't for her. You know how those big brown eyes can melt your heart??? I am watching her very carefully. I thought that yesterday there was a slight change, but I am not seeing it today. I am in prayer about it also and that makes a world of difference too.

hmmm, I'm no expert with the numbers. If you are able to get copies of your tests from the vet then post the results and the normal values here--the norm numbers are there on the test-- and then people here will be able to help you with how the numbers look.
I believe the medication will help your dog, even if the numbers are high. It doesn't happen overnight. My dog is not on Lysodren, but neither of the Cushings medications work instantly. I thought I would give my dog the first pill and see her drinking lessen right away...but no, it didn't happen that way.
I remember how helpless it feels when the dog seems so miserable, you just want the meds to stop all the symptoms. I'm not that familiar with everything about Lysodren so I can't answer much about it. I just know you give it with food, but I think the Lyso info link was in someone's earlier post. My dog's symptoms were also worse in the evenings. We didn't have too much snorting, maybe if you can prop up her front half, like she's on an incline it will take some pressure off her abdomen and maybe that would help. My dog was bloated and had an enlarged liver and seemed uncomfortable. I'd try propping her up so she wasn't lying flat...but then she'd move to the floor. It's common for dogs with this to lay on the floor because it's cooler and the excess cortisol makes them hot.
Things will probably begin to subside soon...I know it's hard to deal with in the meantime though.

Barbara

Quote:

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Originally Posted by goldengirl88

Sometimes snorting and reverse sneezing can be from trachael issues. Cushings causes the cartlige to weaken and not hold it's been shape which collapses the trachea. My Tipper has it so that's how I know? She does do the snorting, and congested sounds from her throat. She used to have real breathing issues, and make so much noise? The Adequan shots have helped that a lot.It was so bad at one point she went to the hospital and had a scope run down her throat, and up her nose, they could not find anything. She starts honking too, and sort of hiccups at times and she panics as she cannot get air, and it scares the crap out of me. I hope you can get to the source of the problem. I would be looking for answers from an IMS. Is you dog standing or laying when this happens or both? Blessings
Patti

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Hi Patti. It's funny you are talking about the snorting , because Sophie was diagnosed in December. But I noticed she was snorting and making pig sounds especially when smelling for food droppings on the floor. We always thought it was allergies because sometimes her nose runs clear. A few years ago she had a chest X-ray because of that and the vet says it's the way her trachea is. Whatever that means. She doesn't seem to be bothered by it. It bothers me more because I think something is bothering her. It seems to have gotten worse with the Cushings and I didn't really know if it was related until I read your post. Is it dangerous? Is there something I can do about it? By the way, I'm glad you had a good day with Tipper and she is feeling better. I always end my nite by reading the new posts on the forum before bed.

Barbara and Sophie, (New York, USA), canine, 10 YO, F, Spayed, Weight 19 lbs, Dx PDH 11/24/13, started 10mg 2x a day of Vetoryl x one month, now going up to 15mg 2x a day. Last Stim on jan 18. Pre 4.8. Post 11. Remaining on trilo 20mg 2x a day.

Hi:
It can lead to a dangerous situation if the trachea closes and they cannot get air.They will start honking as the trachea is collapsed. If it does not reopen they can't breathe. The rings of cartlige in the trachea are weekend by Cushing's. That makes them collapse. When my Tipper smells the ground she snorts like a pig, it is from this. I get her Adequan injections, which have been very good at helping this as Ican tell when she is due for a shot. I also give her GlycoflexIII to help build cartlige. Cushing's definitely plays an part in tracheal disease. If the wind blows and Tipper gets too much air in her nose, she starts honking.If she gets real excited she starts honking. I would see about the shots from your vet, and the cartlige supplements. Blessings
Patti

Hi Patti. I looked up that drug Adequan, and it says it's used for arthritis. I don't understand how that helps the trachea?

Arthritis is the breaking down of cartilage. Adequan helps rebuild cartilage. The rings that hold the trachea open are made of cartilage, which is damaged by Cushings. I believe the Adequan binds to the cartilage to strengthen it. I can usually tell when Tipper is due for a shot by the sounds she is making. You start with an series of 8 shots twice a week. After that series you go to one a month. Tipper goes every three weeks as her trachea is bad. Hope that helps you understand the Adequan usage. Blessings
Patti

Hi. Ginger did not want her supper last night, was sick and had diarrhea.Did not want anything this morning, so I did not feed her or give her her Lysodren. Called the vet this morning and we took her in for her follow up ACTH Test. Since then she has been sick a few times today. Still not much appetite, but does seem a little hungry. Any suggestions as to what I could feed her that would settle better? Thank you so much to all of you. You have been a big help.

Boiled boneless, skinless chicken breast and rice. Add a little extra water to the rice and cook it until it's mush. This is very easy on the tummy and is usually what a lot of vet's prescribe after a bad bout of pancreatitis. Feed her small, more frequent meals for the next couple of days.

Thank you Lulusmom!!! Appreciate all the help.

So you loaded for 7 days with lysodren and then, how long was it from her last pill till the ACTH test today? Remember that lysodren will continue to lower the cortisol for 48 hours from the last pill. So, if the test is done sooner than that, then expect the actual number will be lower than what the test shows. When do you get the results of the ACTH?

Let us know if Ginger eats and is able to keep it down.

Sharlene and molly muffin

Did your vet give you any prednisone? Were her electrolytes checked also?

The chicken and rice settled just fine. she ate just a little and kept it down. Will continue this for the next few days and gradually add back a little of her food. Thanks so much.

Her last pills were yesterday evening about 5:30 pm They did the test today about 11:00 am. I should here tomorrow sometime, Lord willing. Yes, she kept the chicken and rice down just fine. Has not hit the water bowl much at all since supper, so that is getting closer to normal, but I realize, may be her water intake will always be a little higher. She has been more comfortable today and tonight in over a week! Will let you all know the results once I hear. Thank you so much!

No, no prednisone and Ido not know if her electrolytes where checked. I just called them this morning to tell them Ginger's symptoms and they called back to have us bring her in for the ACTH test. As far as I know that is all they did.

Okay, got the test results over the phone from the vet. Her first test before any diagnosis was 41 prior and I think 38. The normal I believe he said should be >1 but < 5. Yesterdays test........ 1.3 prior 1.4 after!!!! She has rested better this past day than she has for weeks. I go to maintenance stating tomorrow. 1/4 pill 3 times a week. will retest in one month! Will start a journal tomorrow to keep track of her water intake, food amounts and pills given. also any changes, good or bad. I am so thankful for answered prayer and all of you for the support, comments, information and questions I need to, or have needed to ask! I will be in touch will updates on Ginger! Have a blessed night.

I am so glad to hear that Ginger has been doing better. It is nice to see them feeling better and acting better. Hope she continues to improve. Blessings
Patti

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gingerbread

Her last pills were yesterday evening about 5:30 pm They did the test today about 11:00 am.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by gingerbread

Okay, got the test results over the phone from the vet. Her first test before any diagnosis was 41 prior and I think 38. The normal I believe he said should be >1 but < 5. Yesterdays test........ 1.3 prior 1.4 after!!!! She has rested better this past day than she has for weeks. I go to maintenance stating tomorrow. 1/4 pill 3 times a week. will retest in one month!

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I don't mean to spoil your good news but I am worried. If she had her last dose of Lysodren on Sunday (3/9) and then the ACTH stimulation test on Monday (3/10) with results of pre = 1.3 ug/dl and post = 1.4 ug/dl, which was only about 17 hours after her last Lysodren dose. Lysodren continues to work for 48 hours so I am worried that her cortisol has dropped lower, maybe even too low. Please do keep an eye on her and if any signs of low cortisol appear, which can be any one of the following: vomiting, lethargy, and/or diarrhea, call the vet at once.

Thank you so much Patti. Will keep you all updated

Okay, I know you had mentioned this before, but I guess I may have misunderstood as far as it dropping lower. I will be keep a very close eye on her and have started a log this morning. and started the maintenance dose this morning as well. She had not had any Lysodren since Sun. the test was Monday and we did not hear results until late yesterday so this morning was her first once since Sunday. Thank you for your concern, and never hesitate to respond, good or bad. I need to know all I can in either direction. You all have been as much help, if not more than the vet! Will be updating when I can.

DO NOT start maintenance today! :eek::eek::eek: If the cortisol continues to drop and you start maintenance now, you are asking for trouble. Maintenance usually starts about a week after the loading is achieved and since the ACTH was done WAY too soon, we really don't have any idea where the cortisol will be in another 24 hours. Please do not start maintenance today.

I agree with Leslie, DO NOT start the maintenance dose of Lysodren, please!!

Lysodren continues to erode the adrenal glands for 48 hours after the last dose of Lysodren is given so right now she has a high probability of going Addison's if more Lysodren is being given.