Kira, 14 y/o Husky - Successful adrenal surgery (Kira has passed)

[Skye]

i just heard from her and she is on her way home! she said she will have to get all her notes organized to post on here. I am so proud of her for taking this brave step.

[Altira]

Well my Kira is hopping around all happy she even chased Neeka for a few minutes. Now she wishes Neeka would stop. Anyway here is what they did and what I know so far:

Consultation
Cortrosyn 250mg per vial
All-Care #2 to ANTECH
ACTH Response test
Tramadol
Ultrasound
Injection (outpatient)

That's all per invoice and mostly Greek to me!

I did get 15 minutes of recording during the consultation. That I'll review and post. Missed the first few minutes though.

I got the current results via phone call now we have to rely on my memory. Not good (my memory i mean) but hear it is:

"She said the ultrasound looked great. But maybe some kidney problems. Not sure yet. She said the heart sounded fine. Liver is discolored but not enlarged. They are doing stem test and CBC. The theropy section is a bit concerned with her back, and pain in her hips. She needs therapy to get better. They are most concerned about her back. She rattled off all sorts of other vital organs and attached the words "looks fine" to all of those."

They did not give me any printed records or results or whatever. They said they would fax them to me. Usually that means they won't but I will insist on that. And she will call tomorrow with more results. I'm not overly impressed with this doctor. Maybe she was just an intern?They said that Dr Moore had an emergency. But needless to say so far we see NO GIANT RED FLAGS so of course that's a relief.

The tramadol thing. Every 12 hours for 7 days. I don't get that one. She has so much trouble with Incontenance. But she's under the table now whining. Probably too much ruff housing with Neeka. I may give her one.

Stay tuned more to come.

[lulusmom]

Hi Janis,

The stuff you posted is just a listing of stuff you are being charged for. The invoice is about all you get until they get the results back from the lab (Antech). It usually only takes one day so you should get the results of the stim test and cbc tomorrow. If they were concerned about the pain in Kira's hips, then I would have to assume that Tramadol was prescribed for that pain. If you think she is in pain, give her a dose.

It sounds like everything is good so far so let's keep our fingers and paws crossed that the stim and cbc results are good too. Which internal medicine specialist did you see today? I hope you can get some much needed rest tonight.

Glynda

[Skye]

I hope answers come tomorrow so a direction to healing can be taken!!!! how come they said might be problem with kidenys? or maybe they said that because she has been having accidents? Hope you can rest well this evening, and i do hope they get you those results. Great Job!!!!

[Altira]

This is a shortened ruff version of our conversation. Her questions, comments or actions are in brackets.


I missed the first few minutes …….
Blood on poop
Maybe it's old age
I want to know where we stand and what is the best thing we can do for her, maybe put her back on pred
I stopped giving her the eto pain meds and saw no change, however there was a difference at first
Her knees and stiffness
want to know where we stand on her liver and heart
her fur not growing for 8 months, after surgery it grew in fast
sometimes cries when I bump her butt
where do we stand with her back problem
I don't want to put her thru any more surgery
Don't know if she is in pain or not
Lays unmoving for hours
Neeka tears her up (she laughs at that)
She could be just totally fed up with Neeka
something is wrong
(she asks about meds again)
Dashquin MSD for one year, she hates it I stopped about a month ago, have not seen a change
Prion
(she is interested)
I'm not certain if that does anything, the problem is so intermittent. I’ve used it off and on thru the years
(so your main concern is:
drinks lots of water
pees a lot
stiffness
weight loss)
and putting her back on pred
(Except we wouldn't know what we are treating)
I want to know which tests would be prudent right now
(last time on pred?)
one year ago for 6 weeks after surgery
(her appetite)
generally good
she has no energy
(she tries to get Kira to lift her head and look at her, Kira does not do it)
She likes her walks though
all of this could just be emotional
(she does exam)
I show her broken tooth and tell her she hasn't chewed a bone since
(it’s fine)
(she tries to get Kira to stand up on her own)
she does with great difficulty
(she says she is well hydrated)
(she has evidence of arthritis in her rear end)
We agree that cortisol and pred masked that
Kira is being her normal sweet self for the doctor
(she asks what I feed her)
NB Sweet Potato and fish
(she has no pain in her belly)
(she does rectal exam and says all is well)
Kira gives us a little stretch and we awe at her
(she notes the odd way Kira sits. From knee surgery and some pain)
(she recommends:
Ultrasound - due to peeing and weight loss
Fresh blood work and urine
surgeons to do orthopedic exam
concerning Cushing’s and Addison’s... the blood work will show derangements
recommends a Stim test
asks if I have any other concerns)
I said no
*she leaves the room and Kira instantly starts to pant
damn yes, she pants a lot... mom you forgot the panting!

[Altira]

"and putting her back on pred
(Except we wouldn't know what we are treating)"

I dont get her respones. That's right we don't want to know. We dont want her to know. We can still do tests again to see what might be going wrong. I understand the risk of doing this. I need a better reason then this not to do it.

"(she does rectal exam and says all is well)"

Im very glad she did this cus I've been concerned about that part for some time. I feel better now. That was a tough one to bring up.

I need to get out my notes that I pretty much ignored and see what I missed.

I know I failed to be more specific about the tests. Which kind. Do you think that might be a problem or did they cover it?

At ACC they showed me the actual ultrasound recording and explained it all. They charged a whole lot more too.

I don't currently know the girls name. Hopefully it will be on the records they promised to fax me. I will share the test results with you too.

[Altira]

I hope answers come tomorrow so a direction to healing can be taken!!!! how come they said might be problem with kidenys? or maybe they said that because she has been having accidents? Hope you can rest well this evening, and i do hope they get you those results. Great Job!!!!

Geezz How quickly I forget. I already forgot she mentioned this. I'm not sure. I think she said that the other tests will tell us more. This was the first thing she mentioned I think. She may have said kidney damage. That converation didn't get recorded unfortunitly. She did say to not give her the eto pain medication. I have heard so many bad things about it. Maybe she is thinking it's from that.

All and all I walked away feeling better then I did when we got there. I think Kira did too. She likes the attention. She ignores people but I know my Kira. Inside she is thrilled by it. I think I should get her back in rehab again for sure. She liked that. The ultra sound was a big deal to me. But I know the others are important too. I just for some reason, don't fear them as much. But I probably should.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Janis,

Maybe I can help explain the vets comment about the pred and not knowing what you would be treating.

Just like the high cortisol masked Kira's arthritis, using pred without knowing what you are using it for can do the same thing. It can mask a problem, preventing finding it, and therefore preventing proper treatment. That is in ADDITION to all the damage pred does to the body - including kidney damage.

Pred is great - when truly needed, when nothing else will work. But the damage it causes truly makes it a double-edged sword - with one edge it helps, with the other edge it destroys. Just one tiny thing it did to my dad's body - it made his skin, walls of his blood vessels, and sacks around his organs as thin and fragile as tissue paper so that every time they tried to put in an IV, his skin and vessels would rip open in jagged tears that wouldn't heal. The price one must pay for the relief Prednisone can bring is very high so it has to be used with extreme caution and that is why the vet isn't ready to rush into giving it to Kira. If she needs it today that badly, she is going to be on it the rest of her life and any damage done by the cortisol is going to be worsened by the pred.

Sounds like a good visit and a thorough exam. I hope they do fax those results to you and you can see exactly what they are talking about.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Altira]

Kira's current condition todate

VCA All-Care Animal Referal Center 506
KIRA BEGHTOL
12/10/2011

DR BONAPARTE ASHTRI

INITAL PHYSICAL EXAM:
all looks normal except for diarrhea in the last 30 days

SUPERCHEM:
protein: 7- (5-7.4)
alb: 3.8- (2.7-4.4)
glo: 3.2- (1.6-3.6)
a/g rat: 1.2- (.8-2)
ast: 29- (15-66)
alt: 118- (12-118)
alk pho: 160H- (5-131)
ggt: 1- (1-12)
t bilin: .1- (.1-0.3)
bun: 14- (6-31)
creati: .6- (.5-1.6)
bun cre: 23- (4-27)
phosph: 3.8- (2.5-6.0)
gluco: 95- (70-138)
calcium: 9.7- (8.9-11.4)
mag: 1.8- (1.5-2.5)
sodium: 145- (139-154)
potass: 4.9- (3.6-5.5)
k rat: 30- (27-38)
chlor: 110- (102-120)
cholest: 244- (92-324)
trigly: 59- (29-291)
amylase: 625- (290-1125)
lipase: 1290H- (77-695)
ckp: 203- (59-895)
comment; hemolysis 4+ no significance

CBC:
wbc: 8.1- (4.0-15.5)
rbc: 7- (4.8-9.3)
hgb: 14.4- (12.1-20.3)
hct: 44- (36-60)
mcv: 63- (58-79)
mch: 20.4- (19-28)
mchc: 33- (30-38)
platelt: 201- (170-400)
pl est: adequate
neutro: 4698- 58% (2060-10600)
lymph: 1701- 21% (690-4500)
mono: 729- 9% (0-840)
eosino: 972- 12% (0-1200)
basop: 0- 0% (0-150)

URINE:
color: yellow
appear: clear
sp grav: 1.017 (1.015-1.050)
ph: 6 (5.5-7)
protein: neg
glucose: neg
ketones: neg
billrub: neg
blood: neg
wbc: 0-1 (0-3)
rbc: 0-1 (0-3)
cas lpf: none
cryst: none
bactera: none
ep cell: none

TOTAL T4:
t4: 2.8 (.8-2.9)

FREE T4:
pending

CORITSOL SERIAL 2ACTH:
time1: pre
time2: post
cort sam 1: 3.3 (1.0-5.0)
cort sam 2: 11.0 (8.0-17.0)
(there are a lot of notes below this. Do we need this?)

PHYSICAL EXAM:
Musculoskeletal: Moderate gait stiffness. Left hind linb slayed out.
Orthopedic evaluation by dr. savicky performed: Limbar pain, lumbosacral disease, right hip arthritis.
Neurological: normal
Peripheral lymph nodoes: normal
reproductive: normal

LAB DIAGNOSTICS:
blood profile, urinalysis, acth stim test.

ULTRASOUND:
Abdomen: Both kidneys are normal size and shape with normal renal pelvices. There is mild diffuse minerallzation.
Spleen: normal.
Liver: is slightly hyperechoic ho???geneous. (??? unreadable)
Gallbladder: normal.
Pancreas: normal.
GI: normal.
Bladder: normal.
There are no enlarged lymph nodes or masses.

AFTERCARE:
tramadol 1 tab 8-12 hours for 7 days

(diagnosic images from our web site 24x7)

--------------------------------
Her weight is missing....
The above was faxed to me but the doctor did not call to explain yet.

Ok angels... it's your turn

[Rebelsmom]

Hi Janis, I haven't ever posted before but I have been following along. I'm not as smart about a lot of this stuff as some around here but wanted you to know I keep you and your baby in my prayers. The one number that jumped out that I saw was the lipase number being high, isn't that a pancreas enzyme? Would be nice if they would call you back with some explanation.

[Altira]

One year later..
There are no enlarged lymph nodes or masses :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[lulusmom]

Hi Janis,

Wow, Kira's bloodwork looks great as does most everything else. I'm sure that's a big relief for you. To me, it looks like Kira's problems are primarily orthopedic as opposed to endocrine issues, so I'll be interested to see what the vet has to say about her overall assessment.

[Altira]

Hi Janis, I haven't ever posted before but I have been following along. I'm not as smart about a lot of this stuff as some around here but wanted you to know I keep you and your baby in my prayers. The one number that jumped out that I saw was the lipase number being high, isn't that a pancreas enzyme? Would be nice if they would call you back with some explanation.

Thank you ever so much for hanging out with us! And your prayers. (gives me chills to think of those who care so much) Yes the lipse is still high... but unless I'm mistaken (which is always possible) in has been coming down little by little each time since surgery. I really should check on that though. Certianly not enough. She had symptoms of cushing's that started like when she was three or maybe younger. Don't know if this is related though. Hope you stay with us and chat too!

[Altira]

Hi Janis,

Wow, Kira's bloodwork looks great as does most everything else. I'm sure that's a big relief for you. To me, it looks like Kira's problems are primarily orthopedic as opposed to endocrine issues, so I'll be interested to see what the vet has to say about her overall assessment.

Yeah I'm feeling pretty good, even better hearing your assessment! Yeah orthopedic. Dr Watson once told me that the theorpy place could help her a lot more then I can. She for one thing, isn't as cooperative with me if I try to get her to do theropy stuff and i get frustrated too easy. But I have no problem taking her to someone who can help her. I'm thinking now that that should be on the top of my list instead of prednisone.

If not for all the no, no's to pred I get here that might not have happened.

[lulusmom]

Hi Janis,

I don't know if you noticed while you were in the waiting room at VCA but they have many, many plaques from law enforcement agencies from all over California, and probably a few from out of state, honoring them for the excellent care provided to police dogs by VCA's orthopedic department. I have sat in the waiting room many times with pet owners who had driven hundreds of miles for orthopedic consults and surgeries. One of those times was when my little Lulu was in surgery for a dislocated hip. I couldn't have been happier with the results. If Kira needs therapy, I think VCA may be a good choice.

Glynda

[labblab]

Janis, I'm also so relieved to see so many normal results for Kira! Aside from the orthopedic issues, the other remaining "question mark" that I see for you is the thirst/pee puddles. I'll be curious to hear the vet's assessment of that, now that the test results are all in...

Marianne

[Altira]

As am I. Suprized to see so many normal returns and ever so greatful. It truly feels like a fresh new start. But still so many unanswered questions.

I have more questions for the doctor:
1) Her weight loss? (if it's not a concern then what is a good weight for her. Keeping arthritis in mind.)
2) Water intake and huge puddles
3) Why the concern for her kidneys?
4) Why was there no mention of the two huge fatty tumors on her belly? (I know they are harmless but...)
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=274&pictureid=3395
5) No bladder infection?
6) Neck pain?
6) Phyisical therapy

And probably a compliant about Tramidol since I'm expecting Incontenance problems from it. I gave her the first one an hour ago. I don't want her to be in pain.

And asking myself where this gut feeling of mine is coming from? Well it's coming from Kira's actions. I will never get over our sudden loss of Mira. Maybe she won't either. When Kira was three we lost our Kodi and happy carefree Kira left with him. She was never the same ever again. That was so clear. With Mira I didn't see much of any change. When Neeka came Kira was happy as hell. Then when Neeka grew up Kira isn't so found of her. Neeka tears Kira up (just as Kira once did to Kodi). I don't know but some of this seems like it must be emotional.

Kira and Mira got along so perfectly. Just as their names did. It was the best match we ever had. In seven years we had maybe two dog fights. They shared everything. Neeka and Kira... Well we've had at least a dozen dog fights already. It's all talk but sounds so scary. I have to be so careful as sharing doesn't exist. We lost a lot. Kira has lost a lot. She can't have her so loved stuffed animals anymore. So maybe I stop all this strick training with Neeka and let Kira and Neeka walk out front again where they both love to be. We haven't been on walks together (the three of us) in ages because I can't get them to both heel at the same time. Maybe it's not important.

[Squirt's Mom]

Mornin' Janis,

I cannot tell you how relieved I was to see Kira's labs, etc. Oh my, how happy I am for these results! Our girl looks really, really good from these reports.

An ortho doc and physical therapy sounds like the perfect next step to help her now. It would seem pain is a large part of her problems and the PT can really help there. There is a Yahoo! group devoted to ortho problems in dogs that gives some great tips, ideas, etc for helping babies with ortho problems. It is called Conservative Management and can be found here:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ConservativeManagement/

They helped a lot with Crys and I hope you find the same benefit we did.

I also think you may be right about the emotional impact on Kira. She has lost her buddy, faced a serious surgery and recovery, felt her Mom's pain and worry, is in pain, AND has to deal with a rambunctious youngster who is driving her bonkers. I wish I had some suggestions to help. What I think I would do is try to give Kira some extra time just the two of us - after I got started on a protocol to help with her pain, that is. ;) I would think she will need to be protected to some degree from Neeka's play to prevent injury and increased pain for Kira. If they enjoy walking together and you can handle both of them safely, then let them walk together. You don't want to separate them, I wouldn't think, or they will never adjust to each other but I would try to give Kira, and Neeka, some time just the two of us - especially Kira right now to help her get back on her feet emotionally. But that's just me and my instinct. :D

I hope you get an answer about the incontinence. But it sure does NOT seem to be of endocrine origin.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Altira]

I just heard from the All-Care vet again and my head is pretty much swimming at the moment. I asked the additional questions I had but nothing seemed to really matter there. All I could hear was Kidney disease. I asked how long before it gets bad and she said about a year. And to do a blood test again in about six months. And that she would notify our regular vet about that.*

I think that's all she would have said if I hadn't pressed it farther. She said this is likely why she has excessive drinking and peeing but if i wanted they can do further testing to make sure it's not an infection. I asked her to do that. She said she would fax that result to me and my vet.

I asked her about the therapy part and she said I could do that if I wanted to. She said there is a special food I could put her on too that might help if I wanted to do that. I asked about the tramadol and she said I could keep giving it to her if I wanted too for pain.*

There are all these things she said I could do if I wanted to but none that she really seemed to recommend. Nothing that seemed like it was going to make any differance.*

I didn't ask about the prednasone idea because I'm assuming with kidney disease already being a factor that this would just make it get worse that much faster.*

She said there was more extensive tests they could do to see if cancer was involved. I don't know what it was. But i get the feeling that this would be pointless. *She's got about a year and that's it. So I'm not feeling very happy about right now or about what her last year is going to be like. Or if it can be made any better at all. She just seemed to be directing me back to my regular vet. *

I don't know why she didn't make this more clear to me the first time she talked to me. She said everything looked good then. Or i thought she did. So I'm confused. I asked about Kira's weight and the fact that she continues to keep loosing weight. She said her weight at the moment seemed fine but if she continued to lose weight they could do more testing. I think that's what she said. Nothing she said sounded encouraging at all.*

Our Sasha died of renal failure. It was a very slow death. One day I started to take her for a walk but she didn't want to go. She was much older then Kira.*

[lulusmom]

Hi Janis,

I am totally confused. This vet is telling you that Kira has kidney disease that will probably take her from you in a year's time, yet her kidney values on the chem panel are normal? Did you get an explanation as to why she feels that kidney function is impaired and why she offered to pursue cancer if you wanted to? Based on what you have told us, I am not impressed with this specialist and regret having referred you to VCA; however she is not at the top of the food chain at VCA. I would suggest that if you are not happy with this specialist and still have questions, call and ask Dr. Moore to review Kira's file and call you back.

With respect to the orthopedic issues, I would not be taking direction from the internal medicine specialist. If I were you, I would call the orthopedic surgeon who examined Kira and discuss what s/he recommends as appropriate treatment/therapy for Kira.

Glynda

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Janis,

I, too, am wondering what the vet is basing kidney disease on. All Kira's labs look good in that respect so where is she getting this? I think I would be calling back and wanting an in depth explanation. That is confusing!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Altira]

I guess I could ask dr Moore to look at it. Afterall I did ask for him and have paid for what I had hoped would be his assessment.

[Altira]

I think this is what she based it on.

"Abdomen: Both kidneys are normal size and shape with normal renal pelvices. There is mild diffuse minerallzation. "

The last line there. It would seem like the word "mild" wouldn't equal one year. Or that.... I don't know. How fast this will progress.

It has been my experance that... With Mira a year ago dr Watsons assistant said Mira possibly had Cushings and began testing her for that. Then dr Watson came along and completely agreed. When in fact she didn't have that at all. I don't know ... When people work together they have to back each other up.

[Harley PoMMom]

Kira's current condition todate
ULTRASOUND:
Abdomen: Both kidneys are normal size and shape with normal renal pelvices. There is mild diffuse minerallzation.



From Kira's U/S it shows some renal mineralization, maybe the IMS is believing this could be a symptom of some sort of kidney issue.

[Altira]

Oh yes I think it was also based on excessive drinking and peeing too. And if there is no infection... Then...

[Altira]

Ha we post at same time.

When she called me the first time this is the first thing she said and she did seem concerned. But with the word mild in there I wasn't very concerned. Course I didn't know what that meant either. If she had said the beginnings of renal failure it would have concerned me right off.

[Altira]

I called and they said theyd give him the message and have him call me. I'm not sure at all what I'll say to him. I'm really no good at talking on the phone or in person for that matter. Kira's tummy is making noises. It does that a lot. Really loud. Has for years.

I wonder if those pain meds I feared so much did this to her kidneys. She took one a day for three months or more I think. I wonder if feeding her science diet light for years did it. The vet said it was good. I was feeding her eukanuba light for years before that. And purified bottled water always.

I feel upset and exhausted really don't want to talk to a doctor. Don't want to hear it confirmed. I haven't told Bud yet. Can't get the words out. I'm sure he knows something's up.

[Altira]

Ok HOLD ON!

Dr. Moore isn't agreeing with the kidney thing. Don't ask me what all he said but but i can give you this much. He wants her back in tomorrow morning for an 8 hour stim (?) test for Cushings. He doesnt think it's pituitary but rather the other adrinal. Although its not enlarged at all. Sebestyn said that couldn't happen. I think he said her blood test indicated Cushings. I'm totally confused. With the exception of the water intake all the symptoms are gone. Except for muscle wasting maybe. I sure hope were not on another wild goose chase. We never did prove that she had Cushings in the first place. Well ok calm down... Give this guy a chance. He did call back promptly and did sound like he really looked at the some forty pages of records I gave then. He is concerned about her liver. Anyway she goes back in at 6:30am.

[lulusmom]

Hi Janis,

I am just getting a chance to post to your thread and I'm glad Dr. Moore called you back. I was going to suggest that you ask him if they see this type of mineralization in dogs with cushing's. Not that I thought Kira has cushing's but I thought that perhaps the adrenal tumor that was removed may have oversecreted some sex hormones that could have caused the mineralization. I am actually surprised that Dr. Moore wants to do an LDDS because I sure didn't see cushing's when I looked at her bloodwork, but then what do I know? I'm just an insurance professional with ocd when it comes to canine cushing's. :D If Kira is having an 8 hour test, it is the LDDS. If Dr. Moore thinks Kira may have an adrenal tumor, then the LDDS would be more reliable as a good number of ADH dogs will have false negative ACTH results.

Did you tell Dr. Moore that Dr. Sebestyn said it is not possible for Kira to have an adrenal tumor on the remaining adrenal gland? I'm curious as to what Dr. Moore had to say because I'm not sure why another adrenal tumor is absolutely impossible.

[Altira]

No I didn't tell him what Sebestyn said. I would think he has enough experance to know what he's looking at. Way better then me. But I sure dont see it either. I wonder what Marianne thinks. So if it is then what then? Back to trilostine? It doesn't make any since. The kidney thing seems more likely. Sebestyen told me that if her liver damage was coused by Cushings that it would repair itself. In the end he did say it was.

This Cushings test is harmless isn't it?

I wish these vets would agree on something. I have so little faith in them. I was reading about renal failure and there seems like there are lots of things you can do to help, possibly even slow it down. Coarse it says mild diffuse mineralization. I don't know if that's the same thing. I deffintly would like help with addressing the problems that are really there. He also mentioned something about the US not being good enough that an MRI or CT would be better. I'm not so inclined to jump into something she has to be put out for. If anything I think a back X-ray might be in line though.

[Altira]

GREAT NEWS
FROM DR. PETER SEBESTYEN

Mrs. Beghtol
*
I have looked* at Kira’s blood work and I agree with Dr. Moore* that Cushing’s disease is a possibility.* It would be the* centrally mediated or pituitary dependent* Cushing* disease and not the adrenal kind what Kira used to have. The reason we think that might be a possibility because of the mild elevation of ALP (160), low urine specific gravity* and the clinical complaint of polyuria and excessive thirst. *It would not hurt to do the low dose dexamethasone suppression test (8hr test) to rule it out. However, if the excessive urination and the thirst is her only complaint , I am not sure if I would worry about specific treatment for this.
Overall her test results look very good and sound like she is doing well. **I do not see any evidence of kidney disease.
*
Best regards
*
*
*
Peter Sebestyen, DVM, Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Surgeons
Veterinary Surgical Specialist of Orange County

[lulusmom]

Most of our cushdogs here have had an LDDS and I don't recall anybody mentioning any adverse reactions. I think the worst part for both dog and parent is the 8 hour stay at the vet's office.

When it comes to vets and specialists, never assume anything and don't be afraid to ask questions if something doesn't make sense. Drs. Sebestyn and Moore are both board certified specialists but in different areas of veterinary medicine. I have the utmost respect for both specialists and I think they are a winning combination so make make sure you tell Dr. Moore what Dr. Sebestyen told you. You never know, Dr. Moore may want to call Dr. Sebestyen and confer with him on Kira's case.

If you haven't done so already, write down all of your questions and take them with you....and don't forget something to write with so you can write down the answers. Dr. Moore is no stranger to waiting for a pet owner (me) to take notes so don't be afraid to tell him to slow down.

Ask him what, besides the excessive drinking and peeing and the mildly elevated liver enzyme (ALKP), leads him to believe Kira has another adrenal tumor. Ask him why he thinks the Lipase is so high and if he says it is the pancreas, ask him why the pancreas is not a likely cause of the elevated ALKP. Then ask him if mildly diffuse mineralization is an absolute sign that Kira has kidney disease and if not, ask him why the other vet not only lead you to believe it was but went so far as to tell you Kira's life expectancy is approximately one year and made no dietary recommendations or anything else that could possibly slow the progression. Okay, so those aren't your questions but if Kira were mine, those would be the questions I'd be asking. :D

Glynda

P.S. I see that you posted while I was typing. Yippee that Dr. Sebestyen clarified things for you. My list of questions just got a lot smaller.

[Altira]

Gosh I'm smiling and crying all at once. God bless Peter being right there to save me. At this hour no less. I sent my message to him at 8:30 tonight. I got a response about 30 minutes later. My Hero!

This is what I wrote to him:


It's been a year since you did the Laparotomy on my Kira. I just had a complete check up on Kira, ultrasound and all.*

Two different vets at this place in Fountain Valley are telling me to *different things.*

One (name listed below) says she has the beginnings of kidney failure and pretty much just sent me back to dr Watson. With a year to live and no hope.*

The other Dr. Moore who is said to be the best ITM dr there says he thinks she still has Cushings. He wants to do that eight hour test. He is also concerned about her liver. He mentioned nothing about her kidneys.*

I took her in because she has been drinking tons of water and peeing huge puddles "off and on" lately. I thought she might have an infection.*

I thought her test results looked pretty good. That maybe her kidney problem should be addressed and getting her therapy for her aches and pains.*

Would you take a quick look at the below test results and see what you think please?

I would value your opinion so much!!!

[Cyn719]

So glad the vet cleared things up - much better new!!!!:D Happy:D happy:D happy:D ----- hugsssssssssss xoxo

[lulusmom]

Janis, I do hope that you talk to Dr. Moore and share Dr. Sebestyen's email with him. Dr. Moore is the Director of Internal Medicine and if one of his specialists was so incompetent as to misdiagnose Kira with kidney disease, devastate you with a prognosis of one year survival time and send you on your way with no recommendation but to see your gp vet, then Dr. Moore has some major explaining to do. If I were you, I wouldn't leave until I got an explanation.

[labblab]

Janis, I am so sorry to be so late in commenting on what has been going on with Kira. But after having had the chance to get caught up, I'm going to copycat an earlier reply of Glynda's -- and tell you that I agree 100% with what SHE has written! ;)

The results of the LDDS will be interesting, that's for sure. And now that you have both Dr. Moore and Dr. Sebestyen on the case, I feel certain you will get to the bottom of things. As Glynda says, perhaps the ideal thing will be for the two of them to have a chance to talk with one another after these test results are in.

Good luck today, and please give Kira a big hug from her Auntie M.
Marianne

[Altira]

*To the best of my memory....

KIRA UPDATE:
Dr. Moore
Reviewing Multi Tests and Ultrasound done on 12-10-11*

KIDNEYS are not a concern at all and Ultrasound notation is not an indication of possible Renal failure. "disffused mineralization" means there are spots on it. Mineral spots I supose. *It is possible (but not confirmed) that the Etogesic pain medication did this. She took it everyday for maybe three months. She did not have any kidney damage a year ago. He said this drug is hard on the liver too. I stopped giving it to her a month ago.*

I asked if excessive water drinking indicates renal failure and he said no, not in the way you think. Excessive drinking yes and a whole lot of peeing and not being able to go. You know, straining to pee and can't. (hopefully I have that right)

LIVER I'm totally drawing a blank!

CUSHINGS the 8 hour test is pending. This seems to be his only concern. He asked me a lot about Trillostine. Asked if I thought it helped. It's possible, it unmasked her lameness. She only took it for a little over a month, and off and on at that.*

Personally I'm with Dr Sebestyen. If she does have Cushings *it is very mild. Everything shows that the surgery made a big differance. In distended belly, weight, much improved blood work, organ damage stopped, fur growth, ravinous eating, heart mur mur. *All improved or gone as of today. As Sebestyen suggested if she does have it I will not treat. But will be very vilagent.*

Maybe my Kira just loves her water.*

URINE INFECTION secondary test is still pending. But so far there is no indication of that.*

PREDNISONE I didn't ask.*

ORTHOPIDIC concerns. He didn't mention it at all. But after Xmas I'm going to take her back to that rehab place i took her to before and have them look at her again. And probably give her a few therapy sessions again. Which she seemed to enjoy. Spoil her

KIRA herself... Well they brought her out from the back... hanging on for dear life! Then she fairly drug me out the door. A good show of just how powerful she still is when she wants to be.*

[Altira]

Some pending results no longer pending:

Free Total T4:
30.9 - (8-40)

Urine MIC Culture:
Preliminary #1 12/13/2011
No growth on solid media in 24 hrs

[Altira]

Janis, I do hope that you talk to Dr. Moore and share Dr. Sebestyen's email with him. Dr. Moore is the Director of Internal Medicine and if one of his specialists was so incompetent as to misdiagnose Kira with kidney disease, devastate you with a prognosis of one year survival time and send you on your way with no recommendation but to see your gp vet, then Dr. Moore has some major explaining to do. If I were you, I wouldn't leave until I got an explanation.

Oh dear ... Well as much as I agree with you about the misdiagnoses and the very tearful time I spent over it... I'm lucky I even made it in and out of the place. Just ask Stormee I was freaking out just being there. It's not like he didn't say anything. I was suspicious about him having an emergency and not being able to see me himself. When I did talk to him, he did say no. They messed up scheduling me when they did. At one point I said that the doctor I did see said Kira had kidney disease and directed me back to my regular vet. To that all he said was a very painful "I know". So it's not like the problem was not addressed. He knows about it. And I have no wish to get into a confrention with anyone. It happened. It is rather disturbing to think that it might never have been clearifed. And unfortunately when the last results are in I'm not going back. Where do I go now? My regular vet did the exact same thing. Totaly misdiagnosed my Mira. I had to go to ACC on my own to get the correct one. You know it's all just a guessing game. Imagine how much harder it is when your paicent can't talk. can't tell you where it hurts. As far as the scheduling goes. I called late in the day and they fit me in for the next day. That's short notice. They did the best they could for me. But it didn't work out the way they hoped. I'm a horribly forgiving person.

As far as getting Sebestyen and Moore together. I think that would be wonderful too. And today I pointedly brought up Sebestyens name and what he had said to me on a couple issues. Hoping he might take it upon himself to say ... I should consult with him. I did this with my regular vet and he right away said he would consult with Sebestyen and they did a couple times. Moore didn't seem inclined to do the same. I think they go by experance a lot of the time. Medicine isn't easy, they all have differant ideas. Obviously. Look what I just ran into. So what do I do? Ha ha... go with the diagnoses I like best. Ok it's a little more than that. Beings that Kira no longer has most of her Cushings symptoms and the test results are so good, thinking that is the problem now seems wrong to me. Or not worth worrying about.

If I'm missing the point. PLEASE feel free to hit me over the head. But you know I haven't mentioned the prednisone thing to Moore or Sebestyen. We have a liver concern and a new kidney concern. I'm not so incline to jump into that right now. The life expectancy of a husky is 13 years. My Kira will be 13 in 1 year and 3 months. Not so far away. (gee did anyone else notice the number match above? 13 and 1 & 3.)

I wonder if Moore has an email address??? I would forward Sebestyens email to Moore. That I could do.

I too am VERY CURIOUS about this 8 hr test result. Moore said the one they did on her presurgery did confirm Cushings. I looked at it but of course it's Greek. If its here some where back in these pages I'll copy it up to here to compare.

[Skye]

i did

and there is kidney concerns now???

so cushing liver kidney concern but heart is ok and back is being addressed right?

[Altira]

i did

and there is kidney concerns now???

so cushing liver kidney concern but heart is ok and back is being addressed right?

Liver and kidneys are on my list of concerns not the doctors. I just say that because six or three months from now when things don't seem better... Those are the things I'm going to be asking about. Blood tests and ultrasounds are in Kira's future for sure. The whole way out. Just like it was for Mira. Mira's last US told us her liver was now bleeding and ready to rupture. Had she died that way, well could it have been more horrible.

The only concern at all is Moores with the Cushings. Once this is cleared up I will get her to the back specialist sure.

[Altira]

KIRA BEGHTOL
11-19-10 PRE-SURGERY

Pre Dexamethasone 5.1 (1.0-6.0)
Post 4 hour dex. 3.4 (less then 1.5)
Post 8 hour dex. 2.7 (less then 1.5)

Does this confirm Cushings?

[labblab]

KIRA BEGHTOL
11-19-10 PRE-SURGERY

Pre Dexamethasone 5.1 (1.0-6.0)
Post 4 hour dex. 3.4 (less then 1.5)
Post 8 hour dex. 2.7 (less then 1.5)

Does this confirm Cushings?
Hi Janis,

Yes, Kira's 2010 LDDS was definitely consistent with Cushing's. Her 8 hour reading of 2.7 was greater than 1.5, so that is a "positive" for Cushing's. Sometimes the LDDS results will specifically point to the pituitary form of the disease, but in Kira's case, the results could have been consistent with either the pituitary or adrenal form. So that's undoubtedly why you moved on to the ultrasound which ended up showing that she had the tumor on her adrenal gland. To learn more about interpreting LDDS test results, here's a link to an article on our "Resources" forum:

http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/Medicine/ClinQuiz-Interpreting-low-dose-dexamethasone-suppr/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/580093

You will see that the article is written by the same Dr. David Bruyette that Glynda told you about at the VCA hospital in West L.A. Dr. Bruyette is truly a nationally known authority on Cushing's, so if you should end up wanting or needing more input about the possibility of Cushing's with Kira and are wanting the most experienced guy in your area -- Dr. Bruyette would likely be the man.

I am SOOOOO relieved to hear that Dr. Moore has pretty much ruled out any other concerns for Kira!! And now I will be anxiously awaiting the results of that new LDDS test.

Marianne

[labblab]

Hi again, Janis --

I just quickly looked back through your thread, and see that Kira actually had the ultrasound prior to running that LDDS. So they had already seen the adrenal mass, and the LDDS was sort of the "frosting on the cake" that corroborated the Cushing's diagnosis.

Marianne

[Altira]

Thank you Marianne... I don't know why I missed that the first time around.
Smile... Yeah I knew that part.

[labblab]

A bit more info about Dr. Bruyette: he is the "veterinary endocrinologist" discussed in this article who was instrumental in arranging for this pioneering pituitary surgery performed at Cedars-Sinai. Lucy, the beloved dog of one of our members ("lucygoo"), was the first patient who successfully underwent the surgery!

https://www.cedars-sinai.edu/About-Us/News/News-Releases-2010/New-Surgical-Technology-First-Tested-in-Humans-at-Cedars-Sinai-Medical-Center-is-Giving-Fido-a-Second-Chance-Too.aspx

Even if it should turn out that Kira has pituitary Cushing's, at her age I don't disagree at all with your thought to just sit tight as long as her symptoms are minimal. So I'm not mentioning the surgery because I think you'd want to consider it -- but just to let you know that Dr. Bruyette is definitely at the forefront of cutting-edge treatment.

Marianne

[Altira]

Ok I remembered something else dr Moore said concerning the high Lipase. I wrote out a list of all the times it's been checked and showed it to him. It looked like this:

9/2003. 5/2007. . 10/2010. .2/2011. 7/2011. 12/2011
667......... 1353......1474........2017......1477......1290

It's been high ever since 2007 and seems to be dropping. I believe he did say it was related to the pancreas. I know he said its not a concern. Stormee who quite understandable is very concerned. And it's rather on my mind too. Wouldn't hurt to be on the look out for it too.

[lulusmom]

Hi Janis,

I've referred four other members to Dr. Moore and nobody has had the bad experience you have and I do plan on mentioning it to him when I see him in a few weeks. For him to acknowledge that one of his internal medicine specialists misdiagnosed Kira and offer nothing but "I know" is inexcusable.

[Altira]

Happy happy happy....!!!!!!

KIRA - BEGHTOL
VCA All-Care
Dr Moore
12/13/11

Sam 1 Pre: 2.6 (1-5)
Sam 2 4hr: 0.7 (0.0-1.4)
Sam 3 8hr: 0.8 (0.0-1.4)

Kira is NEGATIVE for Cushings! He says do another CBC in 4-6 weeks to check on the ALT level which involves gallbladder. Maybe a Denavarin (sp?) supplement just in case. Other then that he's cut her loose. I hope the orthopedic dr can help cheer her up.

[Skye]

her lipase was really elevated wasnt? i thought u/s showed enlarged liver? it has healed i am guessing.........
with the elevated lipase i would have heightened concern over her pancreas and liver.....just wouldnt feel right if i didnt say something. Sorry not meaning to pry, or be so detailed. You know i LOVE YOU and think you are AWESOME! and would never ever want to be misunderstood....so please know my words are being typed very sweetly and lovingly and yes protective of you and Kira. :)

[Altira]

Well leave it to me to yet forget to ask about the liver. He said he was sorry he didn't have an answer for the excessive drinking. But really it was a blatter infection I went there for. He only showed concern for the ALT in the end. I'm still to call him back about the supplement,..... if someone would please pin a note to my shirt so I won't forget to ask about the liver. I too want to be clear on that one. But really if it's a big concern I think Sebestyen would have said something. We know that there was damage from the Cushings. That was proven. A biopsy was done by dr S. I don't know that it was ever enlarged, they did find something in the US a year ago. They said the liver was braking down I think. Beings the Cushings did that it should have at least stopped. The first dr here at Fountion Valley said it was discolored.

Anyone ever heard or denavarin? It's not an over the counter thing.

Oh yes the Lipase was elivated. It been elivated for 5 years. Here again neither dr S or dr M showed any concern.

I'm all for the requested CBC in six weeks.

[StarDeb55]

Janis, I think you are probably talking about denamarin.

Debbie

[Altira]

Janis, I think you are probably talking about denamarin.

Debbie
Haha I just now came back to make that correction! Yes that's it! It has milk thistle which I think is popular here. Looks like its safe enough. At least the over the counter version. Moores version is not.

[StarDeb55]

If I'm not mistaken, denamarin is by prescription only. I don't think it's available as an OTC drug.

Debbie

[lulusmom]

I believe Denamarin can be purchased over the counter. Prescription is called Denosyl or Adenosyl. Main ingredient in both is SAMe and there is some concern about giving it with Tramadol. Excerpt from one site says that "In theory, SAMe could interact with the pain reliever tramadol in such a way that an increase in the neurotransmitter serotonin might occur, leading to dangerously high blood pressure. Until this has been studied more carefully, it is recommended that these two medications not be used together."

[StarDeb55]

Thanks for the correction, Glynda, I simply couldn't remember for sure.

Debbie

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Janis,

That LDDS is GREAT! I am sooo happy to see those results and know you are, too! :D:D:D

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Altira]

Yeah I am very happy. I just wished Kira was too. I was petting her last night and she got up and moved away.

FOOD AND NEW VET:

Today I went to this place our dog trainer suggested I go to ask about dog food. This was mainly for Neeka but I asked about Kira. I noted all the latest findings. She suggested I get something that I would have to get thru a vet. I declined that idea and ask what she might sujested in reg food. She walked over and pointed out a Natural Balance food. I pointed to the one next to it, Natural Balance Sweet Potato and Fish and told her that's what I give her now. Turns out I got that one right. Kira does very well with it. I snagged some pure pumpkin too. I told her we go to Dr Watson who is in the same complex. She handed me a card for the vet she's been going to for 14 years! He sounded great and he's not so far away too. Once more a girl who was patently waiting spoke up and said this guy was her vet too and she liked him as well. So there you go... I think I found our new vet! They did say he's a bit arrogant but he's good never the less.

[Altira]

I believe Denamarin can be purchased over the counter. Prescription is called Denosyl or Adenosyl. Main ingredient in both is SAMe and there is some concern about giving it with Tramadol. Excerpt from one site says that "In theory, SAMe could interact with the pain reliever tramadol in such a way that an increase in the neurotransmitter serotonin might occur, leading to dangerously high blood pressure. Until this has been studied more carefully, it is recommended that these two medications not be used together."

Thank you for the imput ladies! Humm.. think I'll forgo the demamarin (or whatever he was talking about). Sounds like he didn't have it quite right anyway. I think it came up because I asked about her food. He said the current food was fine then suggested this supplement.

[Altira]

Stormee thought this was pretty funny, so I thought I'd share it with you.

Kira Story...

When I got up the morning Kira was to have her 8 hr cortisal test... there was Kira, lying there under the TV, in a favorite spot, looking all beautiful, alert, leaning up looking at me. Beside her about a foot away, was a big pile of perfect looking dog poop.


http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=274&pictureid=3403

[Squirt's Mom]

HA! She was just letting you know you hadn't fooled her one bit! :D

[Altira]

So how do you do it?

How do you feel grateful for the time you have left? And not cry. Kira and I just went for the nicest walk tonight. She trotted beside me perfectly. It was so nice we went around twice. (I only had to remind her a dozen times not to pull ahead- which is better then most times). She is pushing me to walk fast. And I look at her, she's a bit labored, but*she doesn't appear to be in pain,*she didn't hear the man coming on the bicycle that skirted around us,*she's*focused straight ahead, maybe reminding herself to not pull ahead, who knows, she seems happy, she wanted to go and I cry because I'm scared. I keep remembering who should be there with us. How happy I was walking and running with Kira and Mira not so long ago. And now I'm loosing the other half. I don't know how to do it, to feel happy, except let myself pull away from her because the closer I get the more it hurts. Sometimes I wonder if I'm really cut out for this. Then I think of a life without dogs. Hell... if they weren't so wonderful it wouldn't hurt so much. *They are wonderful and I do it over and over again.*

The only thing a dog does wrong is not live long enough....


Sorry about all the *'s my iPhone does that when I copy/paste.

[Skye]

your heart is loving with true pure love. straight from your soul to theirs. Isnt that how they love us?
look at how awful some animals have been treated by the hands of humans...it hurts them, breaks their heart and scars their bodies even...and they remain strong...loyal, unconditionally.....maybe they wonder why they love us....but here is the thing.......would you miss it? would you trade never feeling or receiving it? of course not. its like connected heart beats...each keeps the other beating. there is always a plan in place, and i feel (this is my opinion no offense to anyone) God created all of us, and all the creatures, He loves them just as much we do, He knows it hurts for us to lose are pet children, just as He knows we relish every second we share with them. Remember He to lost His son...and His son gave all.......our pet children give all unconditonally, forgive instantly,
love us more than they love themselves. Much like your heart sweetheart...you love them more than yourself. If it is given it can be taken, if it is taken you will be given.....ever think that when God calls one of our babies home, yes it shreds our very soul, He knows...but what is the reason He called them....has an angel arrived that needs something....is there another fur baby ready to proceed with its journey and its time for the union to your heart.....
oh gawd its so awful i truly understand, pain so awful you cant breathe.....but remember video???? shysie and me? "just breathe"
to close your heart down to receiving this amazing love...that would hurt her so....and you too. When something leaves us its very painful.....but is it for the one whose journey continues in a place not on earth? the sadness is ours...but they are in perfect incredible beauty nothing but purest constant amazing love beauty happiness......we cant see feel hear touch sense this but they are filled with wonderment of awesomeness and thinking ohhhh mom dont cry......its perfect!!!!!!! and they watch as your love enriches yet another canine kin. which makes them even more delighted. Its hard to think of any positives when pain is so overwhelming...........easier said than done, but i hope this offers at least one grain of sand of comfort....every beach has to start with one grain of sand....love you sweetheart. (((((hugs))))))

[Altira]

My gosh that was beautiful Stormee. That should go in a special sticky thread in the Those Who Have Passed section. Thank for putting all in words. But you know at least for me, when i lost Mira I couldn't read any of this sort of thing then. It was only much later, maybe only just today, that it makes any since.

Even my own favorite (not written by me of course) I haven't been able to contemplate. And me, the one who was seeking another two days later and brought Neeka home in twenty three days (only cus i couldn't sooner) to start it all over again.


"Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all."

[Altira]

Merry Christmas...

To all the cushangels and members!

[Cyn719]

Janis thinking of you

Merry Christmas

Love and hugs xoxo

[Altira]

Kira has an apointment tomorrow with the orthopedic doctor that examined her last March. She's limped some the last few days. I will post the updated findings when I get them.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Janis,

Let us know what he says!

Hope you, Bud, Kira and Neeka had a great Christmas!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Altira]

Happy Happy Happy....

KIRA
Dr. Ringwald
Therapy Specialist
So. Cal. Vet. Specialty Hosp.
Consultation (to the best of my memory)12-27-2011

This is the same vet that saw Kira last March.

I told her that I had seen a difference in Kira after a few therapy sessions there last March. I said by June Kira had a bounce in her step. Not perfect, but better. She was taking Etogesic and Dasquin MSM once a day. Then sometime around Oct/Nov things seemed to be getting worse. In November I couldn't tell if the med's she was taking were helping or hurting. Kira kept telling me she didn't want them. Spiting them out and turning up her nose at the horrible stuff I sprinkled on her food. So I stopped giving her both of them. A month later and I could see no difference at all. I was concerned and ended up having an extensive list of tests done. (I gave her copies of all that.) We both agreed that no major problems were found. I told her that Kira had been limping the last couple days but it was from a back leg that was expected to be a problem. And she hadn't limped that much. I told her that I felt that all her problems now are orthopedic aches and pains. Her rear end weakness being my biggest concern. I wanted her to give Kira an updated examination and see about setting up a new therapy plan to have done there and see to pain management. That I want Kira to have the best possible rest of her life short of surgery.

I told her I didn't think the tramadol did any good and I was concerned about giving her Etogestic. She asked about some other stuff I forget what they were.

Ok so she gave Kira a very through once, sometimes twice over. There was not a bone on Kira that wasn't touched and felt with great care. She listened to her internally all over too. A few times Kira got a bit wide eyed but she never whimpered or yelped. Course that's more often typical for huskies. I don't have her clinical findings on that yet. (I will post those soon as they fax them to me.) But she did not mention anything of giant concern. In fact the words "old age" was about the only description she offered.

I told her that Kira had lost a lot of weight since the surgery. She said she thought Kira looked better then the last time and was no longer showing signs of Cushing's.

Then we started discussing what to do. Since the tramadol wasn't working she suggested Gabapentin. She said the problem with that was that could make her dopey, sleepy, not want to do anything but it was the best thing to try at this point to treat the problem chemically. I asked if it was safe and she said completely. I asked about shots that are sometimes given. She said we could try that but she wasn't very inclined to do that and neither was I. She didn't really think it would help in her case. So I said ok lets go with your first idea. Then she said something that opened up a whole new world... Something that.. through all this, I had completely forgot about. She said we could try giving her prednisone! I lit up! Oh yes, yes let's do that! Her and I both agreed on every aspect of what that means, both the good and the bad and we both agreed it was the very best thing we could do for Kira. That it was better to give Kira a very happy end of her life rather then a little longer unhappy one.... I told her it was just four days after stopping the pred after surgery when everything fell apart. That it had had that big of an effect on what is currently happening to Kira. I'm thrilled at this point. And it was completely her idea!

Then she asked if I could leave Kira with her for an hour and a half and they would get her started on a therapy plan which included the water treadmill. I felt pretty darn good as I walked out to go watch the big jets that descend right over the top of this rock solid building. My very favorite thing to do.

Kira was ready to go home two hours later. July, the girl that gives Kira her therapy showed me all the things they have Kira doing and hoping that I will do that at home too. Oh boy...

The girl at the check out counter was so sweet she wanted to give Kira a treat so bad. I of course said ok. She couldn't believe how carefully Kira took it from her. Something I taught her. Total cost for today was $231 which included both medications. Gabapentin is expensive. We have Kira lined up for 4 more sessions... one twice a week, for two weeks. Total cost $300. They will keep watch on Kira's progress too including her response to the med's.

Added note: Kira first started showing big signs of lameness when taking Trilostine. Which we stopped just before surgery. She was put on pred right after surgery. She was of course laid up for a couple weeks after that. She continued pred for many weeks and the lameness wasn't there during that time. My point is there has been a significant change here.



NOT EASY TO DO
So now I'm home and sillingly reluctant to start the prednisone. This isn't going to be easy. I know it's the right thing to do but... well I'm sure you know what I mean. I think we will start in the morning. I think I will read up on it tonight. I was actually thinking that we might start this in a month or two. You know, I'm not quite ready to call this the beginning of the end. Is it that bad now? I will do it, it's just not easy. If it were me I know I would do it for myself in a heart beat. There is just so much in favor of it. It's just the other end. Well I don't take this lightly. The good thing is we can always stop. I still have questions that I keep forgetting. And I'm thinking I'll be doing extensive tests again in six months just to see how bad the negative effect are for her. Dr. Ringwald said she may never be effected that badly by it.

[labblab]

Janis, I'm very glad that Kira had such a thorough and extensive examination. I am wondering, though, whether you would want to give the Gabapentin a try prior to starting prednisone? If Kira doesn't tolerate the medication well, you can always stop it and move onward. But since Kira's excessive thirst and urination are already a big unsolved problem for you, I worry that prednisone may worsen those issues very quickly. Does Dr. Ringwald know about them?

Marianne

[Altira]

You know Mariane I have been sitting here (for hours now) thinking the same thing. Truth is I haven't given her any pills yet. I have been reading up on the prednisone and there is some pretty scary stuff when it's used on a long term. But no where does it mention what exactly LONG TERM is! A week, a month, six months, a year? Then I read along a forum where people who actually used pred for a year, two years and they had no bad effects at all! Maybe there was about five differant people out of six that had no problem at all with these lengths of time. Then there was the one that took it for five years and died! That's not much of a collection to go on but still why do they claim all this dreadful things?

Well I don't see any need to jump onto this just yet. Kira is not hurting horribly right now. Let's give the gavapenton a try first and maybe these therapy sessions too. I might run the pred idea across to Sebestian, Watson, and Moore and get their thoughts too. Maybe start up the dashquin again and give tramadol and or what I have left of the Etogesic another try for awhUile. Dr. Ringwald certainly thought pred was a great idea as did my brother and my mom all of whom have seen it do wonders. But I'm with you, lets go slow. Not jump into both meds at once. At least well know which is doing what this way. We haven't seen Ringwolds writen summary yet either.

Yes she knows about the water drinking problem. And she did bring that up. She must have read it in the current records I gave her because I didn't mention it. I really should try to get an actual monitored figure on that. Instead of a just ... It seems like! Some days I drink more water then others too.

Note: I'm worried about Stromee's Shysie.

[Altira]

(Bellow is a copy of the letter I sent to Dr. Ringwald yesterday...)

Dr. Ringwald,

I wanted you to know that I have not started Kira on prednisone yet. I just took her for a walk and she had me moving as fast as I could go. When she stopped to sniff there is no moving her. She has always been a powerful dog and she was lacking no power today. Then too if we start both drugs at the same time it might be confusing as to what drug is doing what.

What I’m thinking now is, give the gabapenton a shot, combined with the recommended twice a week therapy sessions for two weeks. Then let you judge her pain level too. Should she have the prednisone right now. I’m also thinking that when we do put her on it, I’ll want to do tests again in like three months see what effect it’s having on her.

HOW WE GOT HERE:
I believed that Kira’s unhappiness was due to her lameness and my original idea was to get her on prednisone. But I thought it best to have her checked out first to make sure she could handle this drug. There was a problem in the way her last tests were interruped and for a while, I was lead to believe that she had the beginnings of kidney failure. Another doctor in that facility took over and corrected that error. By then I’m a bit frazzled and I never mentioned the pred idea to them. It was so far from my mind that I even forgot to mention that idea to you. So when you mentioned it I thought, yes this is what I wanted. And it still is I think.

CONCERNS:
What I don’t understand is why EVERYTHING you read about it sounds like the most horrible thing in the world. Everything from blindness to… well anything bad you can think of.

Kira had no problems with her kidneys in the ultrasound done a year ago. I know it is mild now, but what caused it? She took prednisone for 6 weeks after surgery and seemed to do very well with it. She also took Etogesic everyday for about maybe 6 months after that. I understand that that drug can be very bad as well. Then there is a thing they keep referring to as “long term use”. Well just how long is considered long term?

WHY DO IT:
Other then wanting her to be pain free there is also her willingness to play with our one-year-old husky. It is a GIANT problem for us. Our Neeka pesters poor Kira all the time. Neeka just wants to play and so does Kira for that matter but if she does, I think she is sorry she did. More often Kira just lays there and cries until I chase Neeka off. It’s a very sad situation for both of them. But something July said made it sound like Kira shouldn’t be playing anyway. We took Neeka to the dog park today. We wanted to take Kira too but I was afraid she shouldn’t be doing that either. I wonder if taking the pred would still limit her from that. Maybe you’ll be able to tell better after working with her a bit?

WHAT I KNOW ABOUT PREDISONE…
For me, I have seen nothing but wonderful things from it. My aunt who was miserable all her life spent the last 15 years pain free. It killed her in the end. My 7-year-old husky with cancer, suddenly she couldn’t walk or stand. They gave her pred and the next day she and I were walking without pain for two weeks. Then she died. But how grateful I was for those two weeks. I’m certain she was too. Then Kira after that major surgery, stood amazingly strong and pain free just days later. Then of course, four days after stopping, she’s a sudden mess. My brother who is a medical doctor says do it… if she doesn’t get better then just stop. No big deal. You seemed to be all for it too. As am I but….

I don’t know, I have a whole lot of good reasons not to rush into this, and unanswered questions.

Please, when time, let me know what you think.

Janis Beghtol

PS:
I was quite dismayed when you mentioned neck abuse but I was not superised either. I have had six huskies since 1978 and I’ve never been able to get them not to pull. The only thing that ever really worked was the metal pinch collars. And a good yank now and then. It breaks my heart to think I did this to her neck but likely I did to some degree. As she did her best to rip my arms off. You should see me try to hold two huskys in check as a cat dashes by!

[Squirt's Mom]

Dear, sweet Janis,

Honey, if there is a special place in Heaven for exceptional moms, you have a seat reserved there.

You have asked some great questions and I hope you hear back from him very soon with some great answers. I, personally, like your proposed plan of trying the Gabapentin and therapy first to see how that works.

I was thrilled to read your description of her walking so strong and proud. It sounds like she is feeling a bit better already and I so hope it continues so you and she can enjoy every single day together. I also hope she and Neeka can come to some sort of understanding about play time and acceptable type of play...but those youngsters can be so bull-headed at times! :p

Keep up the good work, Mom!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Altira]

This is a very short video of how Kira is permitted to play. Trouble is it always escalates to something much more rough real fast.

Neeka and Kira Playing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ua1_VwaILI&feature=youtu.be

[Altira]

Minor Kira Update:

Kira went for her third therapy session today. She was the only one there so she had the whole place to herself. July (the therapy technician) said she shut her and Kira in the toy room and played together. She said she had Kira play bowing several times. Then they did the water treadmill and stretching and massage and played some more. Kira was a mighty happy girl when I picked her up. She even hopped a little trying to get in the back of my jeep.*

I went out on a limb and asked July to give me her opinion on Kira's pain level. She's not a doctor but she is the one who actually works with various dogs. She's worked with Kira before. She wasn't keen on judging pain level but she did say its probably better to start Kira on pred sooner then later. Surly she has worked with dogs who take it. I for one value her opinion.*

Dr Ringwald is back to work tomorrow. We still don't have a Discharge Summary on her findings. I have more questions for her too.*

[Cyn719]

Janis

Saying my prayers for Kira. I have been using gabapentin for about 5 days now for Penny and I have to say it is helping - she not great but better - she takes one 100 mg at bedtime and I can increase it to 2 or 3 a day - I just havent cause it does make her alittle tired. Penny has leg and lumbar issues - lot of arthritis - and lot of lumbar issues - right now she is also taking the adequan shots and the dasaquin and the dreaded rimadyl - but I want her to have quality of live and without it i cant get her to stay standing - I hope you can find something that helps soon -

love and hugsssss xoxo

[Altira]

Thank you for that Cindy! I have printed it and will mention it to Dr. Ringwald. I skimmed over your thread a bit too. I hope your Penny continues to be ok. It's scary I know. Vet's tell you one thing and then what you read says something else. And what you actully see is something differant still! Not a damn thing is in black and white. Too many complications. Is it this or that? Did I do the right thing or not? Most of the time you will never know. It's all just a big scary guessing game. A crewel game. If only they could speak. Kira will be 12 on the 27th of March. Huskies live about 13 years. I hope my Kira makes it there without too much human innrvention to suffer through. I love the therapy sessions she gets now. It's good for her and she has fun. I'm so greatful that I can give that to her.

The only thing a dog does wrong is not live long enough...

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Janis,

Sounds like Kira and July work very well together and that July is helping Kira a great deal! I am glad to hear that! :) I've had to have PT several times and I always dread it until I start the work - then the relief is worth all my dread. :rolleyes: I looks like Kira is experiencing that relief already and I pray she finds more and more relief as therapy progresses.

I still like your original plan of trying the Gabapentin (including increasing this dose a bit as needed) and therapy for a bit before adding the pred. It can take the Gab a few weeks to really show benefit so give it time - or that is how it worked for me, anyway.

Oh I so hope you start to see more and more of your old Kira soon and that she blows that 13th birthday out of the water like a silly joke on her way to her 15th birthday and beyond.

Hugs and love,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Did you metion the gabapentin in a shot? I use pills - Yes Penny girl just turned 12 in November - and I always say am I doing the right thing - I know what you mean xo

[Altira]

Conversation with Dr. Wingwald…
Talking more about doing prednisone
1-3-2012
This is to the best of my memory….

To her credit, I learned that Dr. Ringwald has been prescribing prednisone since 1982 and never had a problem. That's 31 years of experience. She goes to great lengths to reassure me. I was sent to her last March because she is said to be one of the best in our area. So far I would not say differently.

She said the dose that Kira would be getting would be far less then the dose of cortisal she was getting from Cushing’s and far less damaging then that was.

Gaining muscle mass on prednisone is still possible because of the low dose. This being my number one concern.

She can't say exactly what she has because we would need more extensive tests... ct/mri thing. I asked if it would help to know that and she said no not unless you do surgery. She would not change her drug recommendations and therapy no matter what the results were.

For me I’d rather spend my money in therapy that Kira loves and does well with. She’s one happy girl when she leaves there.

She is going with Gabapentin because of the fact that the Etogesic, and tramidol doesn't really help and going with prednisone because of the fact that she was doing so well when she had Cushing’s which she had for years, and the fact that when she went off prednisone she suddenly did so poorly. The change in Kira was by far the most significant right then. It was the same thing not long after taking Trilostein too. Giant change!

She said we would go with the prednisone for two weeks, if no improvement we stop!

I can’t believe that a trusted doctor with her experience would suddenly stir someone in a dreadfully wrong direction. I did express my dismay with all the things written about it on the internet. Not one good thing anywhere. She said she really doesn’t do the internet much and that she felt there was a lot of misinformation out there. Her experance being plenty relabale to her and rightfully so. People tend to talk about the bad stuff and not the good. Which seems right. You’re only going to cry when something bad happens. I never participated in a forum when my dogs were in good health. And I admitted to her that if I had not searched the Internet I would have no problem with doing the prednisone at all. Certainly, her experience paints a far different picture. So who knows, maybe I’ll the first one to ever write something good about prednisone.

Two weeks… No improvements by then we stop. That’s all it will take to find out. Just a year ago she survived 6 six weeks of prednisone without any damage at all right? And the chances of this being a great thing for her is in my own opinion huge.

She is even talking of Kira living three or four more years. Which is unlikely given a huskies normal life span (but I know of three who have lived to be 17.) The point is, as far as she is concerned doing this for three or four years is possible. She said she has had some that lived a long time and died from things completely unrelated to prednisone. Kira actually survived Cushing’s (which is far worse then low dose prednisone) for maybe as long as seven years and ended up with very little damage. I think you will agree that Kira’s current damage is slight. In the areas tested anyway. She also by the way, said no way does Kira have a kidney problem. However, her urine was concentrated at the time of these recent tests but that is something that can happen quite normally from time to time.

I asked about the adiqian shots specifically this time. She said this is mainly for arthritis (I think, I could be wrong) she said Kira’s problem is not so much arthritis (I think) and again she said it would not help Kira that much. I asked about Ramidyl. She said this is the same as prednisone (I think) but prednisone is better. The dasquin doesn’t hurt but she wasn’t real big on that either. I for one have noticed no difference when Kira took it and when she hasn’t. Except she hates it. Which is why we have done it off and on over the years. The last stint was everyday for at least three years because of the knee surgeries. We stopped that and the Etogesic over a month ago… I can see no change at all. She lost the spring in her step at least a month BEFORE I stopped any med’s. That’s why I suspected then, that they weren’t helping and poor Kira was telling me she really didn’t want to take these anymore.

You know we have this tree in the back yard that grows these nut like seeds. Every dog we have had loved them. Every one of them has gotten deathly ill from them too. Threw up for hours and hours. I know it was from this cus it was in their vomit. They all avoided ever eating them again. So why couldn’t Kira be telling me that those pills she was taking then might be making her not feel well? After all, sometimes not long after giving her the etogesic she would look sickish recently. And the etogesic is said to do damage. Gabapentin is far safer.

I’m sure I will think of other stuff she said. I forgot to ask her about faxing me her findings of course. But I emailed and asked again.

In the end, I told her that we would continue with the therapy sessions. She has three more lined up for sure and at the end of that, I will confer with her again and give her my answer, which will (holding breath…) probably be yes. Two weeks, that can’t hurt.

[Altira]

Leslie... Gabapentin, good point. I will ask Dr. Ringwald about upping the dose cus so far I see no differance. We don't have to start the pred in one week but she did say it's better not to wait. Maybe I'll give it and the therapy a full two weeks. Gabapentin is not something that will make things better over time however. But therapy might. Kira did show signs of improvement from this before. And is why I stopped and the cost. Which reminds me I better get up off my butt and do some of my part in that. At least a walk!

Neeka has to stay home she's in heat!

Cindy.. it sounds like Penny's chemical therapy is pretty much the same. Have you tried physical therapy? I could send you Kira's current at home program if you like. Something that I am so bad at doing. I mean doing the at home therapy.


Dr. Ringwald...Added Note:
She did say that Kira's current condition was about the same as it was in March. Meaning nothing has gotten significatly worse.

[Skye]

i think you did a great job at researching, asking questions, seeking pros and cons of with and without, you are trying to give the very best care that you possibly can. Your a beautiful momma to your babies. (((((hugs)))))

[Altira]

Thank you dear friend having your support in this means a lot to me. Makes me feel like I'm not going it alone. No one said Kira had to have her knees fixed. They didn't say soon she won't walk at all. But I watched it's progression for years. The limping started years earlier and slowly got worse. It was not going to stop! When she started walking on three legs that was enough. Then the other leg the same thing. I'm convinced she would not be walking today if I hadn't done this very expensive reconstruction of her knees. Today they tell me her knees work just fine. I didn't have to do the Cushings surgery either. No one told me she would soon die if I didn't. It was the possible threat of cancer that made me do and the promise of being Cushings free. I will never know for certain if it was the right thing to do. The doctor who discovered her tumor suggested I not do it. It was hard. This is no easier. Fifty percent of those following with me say no and the other fifty say yes. It's the same turmoil within myself which Stormee knows all to well. Before talking to Ringwald today I desided I couldn't do it. After talking to her and considing all she knows she is convinced its the best thing I can do for my Kira. She is telling I should do it. All I need now is the courage. Im very lucky that I can go to the best doctors and the most dedicated in there field, at some point we have to trust them. Lord knows these poor doctors know how we feel about our dogs don't they? We batter them with questions and concern.

Anyway, as it has always been here I can't thank you all enough for your love and concern and for going with me thru so many scary times. This roof to where all the angels inhabit.

As a wise fortune cookie once told me....
TRYING YOUR BEST IS NOT FAILURE

[Altira]

WATER TREADMILL:
Oh yes. Unless I'm mistaken I think Kira has put on a little muscle in her thighs in back legs since doing the water treadmill. Shes only had it done three times. July tells me she does it for ten minutes. Dr Ringwald siad this would help Kira the most. A week ago I had Kira on our own treadmill and noticed on about every fifth step she was lossing her balance. The tail would go flying. Just ten minutes then we stopped. Today I put her on our treadmill again. Same slow speed. She did not loose her balance not even once! The back of her thighs feel firmer too. Amazing that this would make such a differance so quickly. All the walking I did with her... Two miles a day seemed to do nothing.

I have not seen them doing this but Kira comes home damp just up to her belly. It would seem that her legs are completely submerged. That she would not be floating at all. Just thinking about it you can imagine the resistance that would create. They should make those things for humans too!!! Lol. Bless the person who made them for dogs!

[Altira]

DR. RINGWALD ADDED COMMENT(S):
To my question...
Would you do this with your own dog? (meaning the pred)

"Yes! In an instant!"

I had sent her a new list of questions ahead of time that I didn't list here. As we talked she picked this one out and said this with all the conviction anyone could. The sincerity was impressive.

She said if we do the pred and continue with it we will do the tests again in three months. The CBC, urine and chest X-ray this time. There was a heart murmur reported right before the Cushings surgery. No doctor has detected it since. I'm glad she picked up on this. I dont think she mentioned a US but im sure if the blood looks bad that it would be suggested too. Then if all looks good we wait another six months and test again. And I completely agree with the requests and the timing. I'm sure if anything bad comes up that she will gets us out of it as best she can. Of course there is a risk. But if anything goes wrong I think we will know in time to at least slow it down. I don't think it would suprize any of you to know my dogs have their own bank account... Lol... I don't have children.

Just one other thing I forgot to mention is that if I remember right Kira had an Incontenance problem while taking prednisone right after surgery. That could blow this thing right out of the water. But maybe that was because of the rear end weekness or from the evasive surgery or a combination of things. Maybe the prion will be able to control it as it currently does very well. That alone could end this whole idea. I didn't mention that dr Ringwald. If god says no, he says no. Or so I'd like to think.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Janis,

Here is a video one of our members took of her baby on the water treadmill that shows how it works -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uvNrHk1EGc&feature=youtu.be

[Altira]

Leslie! Thank you... That is so cool!
I can just picture my Kira all wide-eyed in that contraption. What a good girl. I don't think the water level is quite as high though. It works wonders for Kira.

[Altira]

REBECCA RINGWALD DVM, CCRP
IRVINE, CA

DISCHARGE SUMMARY - REPORT

KIRA BEGHTOL (11yrs 9mos)
DECEMBER 27, 2011


Presenting Complaint/History:
Presented for physical rehabiltition consult to assess her status as compared to her last visit 8 months previously. etc...

Examination:
Ambulatory with mild paraparesis. No lameness, but slightly stiff rear limb gait. Forlimbs: NSF Rear limbs: Slightly delayed CP, left worse then right. Hyperextension of digits 3 amd 4, left rear limb. Moderate muscle atrophy of both rear limbs, especially caudal thighs, left worse then right. Slightly decreased stifle range of motion bilaterally, but no pain, palpable effusion, or cranial tibial thrust. Discomfort on full extention of both hips, over the LS area, and with dorsal flexion of the tail.

Diagnosis:
DDx: Persistant myopathy/neuropathy following resolution of endocrine disease, lumbar myelopathy, geriatric muscle weakness, other.

Treatment:
Thermotherapy, message, and passive range of motion. Balance, proprioception, weight shifting, and strengthening exercises. Underwater treadmill therapy.

Comments:
Overall, Kira's status remains unchanged since her last visit in April. Gabapentin was recomended as was trail of another NSAID or low dose prednisone to help with discomfort and therefore hopefully improved mobility. Low dose pred was discussed as the owner reports Kira's movement had abruptly decreased following adrenalectomy and correction of endocrinopathy. The thought is that endogenous cortcosteroid production by the tumor may have positively contributed to her ability to exercise and her comfort level. The pros and cons of prednisone were discussed at length. A rapidly tapering dose of pred was prescribed. Ahome program was reviewed. Water therapy sessions were again recommended twice weekly to start. The owner is considering her options.

Gabapentin 50mg - (40caps)
1 every 12 hours

Prednisone 5mg - (60tabs)
2 every 12 hours for 3 days
2 every 24 hours for 5 days
1 1/2 every 24 hours

[Squirt's Mom]

Persistant myopathy/neuropathy

This is where the Gabapentin will help Kira, Janis. It is made for this type pain and can reach it when other types of pain meds cannot. I can take mega doses of my narcotic pain meds and they will do next to nothing for the neuropathy pain but the Gabapentin works every time. And it does NOT cause the damage that pred will. I hope you were told that the pred will cause further skeletal deterioration? Prednisone will eat bones. ;)

As I've said before, pred is a miracle drug and can do wonders but it should not be seen as a cure all nor something to take on until everything else has been given a fair chance to help...because for every positive it will give Kira, it will also take something away. I will never forget seeing my poor Dad after he had to have blood drawn. Not one single little spot where the needle went in...oh, no; his arms would be covered in white gauze bandages because of hemorrhaging. The needles couldn't puncture the skin and veins cleanly any longer; they ripped and tore the skin and veins as they entered because the prednisone he HAD to take was destroying his body. His skin, the linings of his organs, the walls of his arteries and veins were like tissue paper you wrap a gift in. His spine was completely eaten up and he had to have metal plates laid all up the spine on both sides - all this was laid at the feet of pred.

Yes, it helped him to stay with us much longer than he would have without it....but at what cost to him?

I think the pred will become necessary but I wouldn't rush into starting it until I had tried every single thing I could think of and she was still suffering just as much. If I hadn't watched my dad for 20 years and heard over and over and over "it's the prednisone", I might not have such a cautious approach to its use...but I did, and I do. ;)

Kira hasn't changed much in the last 8 months so I would think you have time to try the therapy and Gabapentin before resorting to the pred. Just MHO. ;).....again. :p I always have an O! :p:D:p

You're a good mom and I know you will do the best you can for your sweet girl!

Now, did I read that Neeka is in HEAT?!?!?! Oh my word I can hardly imagine one her size in heat! :eek: With little 5lb Trink it's a nightmare with all the males moaning and groaning outside the camper door all day and all nite while she whimpers and rolls and begs to go out and play for just one minute. You have all my sympathy, dear!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Altira]

Leslie, (do you have the slightest idea how I feel about you?)

Anyway, thank you for continuing to hit me over the head with your experance. I was going to ask you to tell me again. I thought you said you had taken pred for awhile but I guess it was your popa. What a dreadful end. I'm trying to get more info from my mom too about my aunt. And it would be very remiss of me not to mention last night.

WALKING KIRA:
Last night at around 9 pm I grouched and took my Kira for a walk. It was very cold out but I got to tell you the cold does not bother my Kira in the least. Not even with her still furless shaved belly. As we go along Kira is being naughty and insisting on pulling ahead of me. I keep pull back gently. "KIRA FOLLOW!" and she falls back only slightly and not for long. She is also desiding "IM SNIFFING HERE! AND YOUR NOT GOING TO STOP ME!" When Kira puts on the brakes good luck moving her! Stubbern as a mule! I have to lean down to her sniffling nose and growl "let's go!" To which she relents. So off we go again. But you know dispite my dislike of her do as I please state and dragging me... I'm smiling too because there is just a small hint of a spring in her in her step. Just very slight maybe I imagine it. Well ok so I increase my speed to pretty much as fast as t can walk to at least 4 mph. Kira is still staying in front of me but at least there is some slack in the leash. Im starting to sweat but smile to I don't mind this. Just wish she would stop screatching to a halt at every bush!!! We crossed the cold dark street, I smiled and bent over slightly looking at kira in front of me I quietly began to trot up next to her. She saw me and intstantly recognized my well known tease and she "TOOK OFF RUNNING!" Which has always been the unsiad request to my tease. Come on lets run! What joy it was to see her take off. We ran together all the time a year ago until Mira suddenly stopped running. We hopped up the curb and I said "ok ok ok slow down." she should not be running per julys instructions. After about a house and a half I slow her down. After about four more houses I say "wait". I can't stand it. Right there I text Stromee. "My Kira wants to run!"

Yes Leslie (and Cindy)you maybe right about the Gabapentin. But maybe even most dramatic response I see right after therapy. Naughy Kira dragging poor July down hall and hopping impatiently for a boast up into my jeep. Gabapentin and twice weekly dose of July, that's $169 a week. Hummm wow. For a year? Well for a while I guess.

Will I end up doing the pred. Yes most likely. When? Well certainly not today!

NEEKA:
Is being a giant concern Leslie. She won't eat!!! She is being horribly finicky. Except if its chicken! I asked the breeder if her dogs stopped eating when in heat and she said no never. Neeka will be spayed soon. She is acting differently, calmer. I'm not overly worried yet though.

[Squirt's Mom]

Don't panic about Neeka not having much of an appetite during this. Trinket doesn't either and Dr. B said it wasn't uncommon. ;)

[Altira]

More prednisone know experience
From my mother about her sister Velma:

"Velma had diabetes quite a while before she died.* (she later says she did not have it before taking pred) She did not die of diabetes.* She died of pneumonia but that is what many people die of when they just lie in bed.* I have never been told exactly what she died of but i do know that her adrenal glands had completely atrophied relying on the predizone to do their work.
*
You remember Tudy and Bud.* Bud had a beautiful daughter who had to take prednsone and Tudy said that if she didn't get it she would go into a coma and die because her adrenal glands had to be removed because of cancer.
*
Suddenly one evening Velma*collapsed as Herman was helping her walk into the living room where it was warmer.* He called Jim who picked her up and carried her to the back seat of the car to get her to the hospital and as he set her down she went into a coma and never pulled out of it.
*
They did say that her adrenal glands had completely atrophied.* I don't know why they couldn't pull her out of it.* She lived for about a week.* I have never seen the death certificate but I'm sure the cause of death will be listed as pneumonia.* Whether or not there were any causing diseases listed I don't know."
*
Opens ups a lot of questions don't it? Why was she bed ridden? Why couldn't she walk? Distoryed glands. Diabetes. So stopping at some point is impossible. This whole thing with my aunt just moved into the CON list!

[Skye]

it seems she does the very best from the water therapy......i would push forward with that and see how far the results will go.......but i understand that method is expensive. lots and lots of variables....have they ever pin down an actual cause for all this? would be nice to research what is wrong and treatment options.....sending you tons of hugs and love to both babies and you!

[Altira]

Well I have spent some time studying the technical findings and of course I'm still not real clear on it.

Examination:
Ambulatory with mild paraparesis.
(Mobile with mild loss of muscle function.)
No lameness, but slightly stiff rear limb gait.
(Rear limbs are slightly stuff.)
Forlimbs: NSF
Rear limbs: Slightly delayed CP, left worse then right.
(Don't know what this is. But NSF=No Significant Findings)
Hyperextension of digits 3 amd 4, left rear limb.
(Something about a couple splayed toes. They look normal to me..)
Moderate muscle atrophy of both rear limbs, especially caudal thighs, left worse then right.
(Moderate muscle wasting in rear legs, more so in the thighs and worse on the left.)
Slightly decreased stifle range of motion bilaterally, but no pain, palpable effusion, or cranial tibial thrust.
(I think this is just a referance to her knee surgery which is not giving her pain.)
Discomfort on full extention of both hips, over the LS area, and with dorsal flexion of the tail.
(Pain when extending both hips (don't know what LS is) and in the bend of her tail.)

The things underlined are the areas that have changed. The notation about stiffness is new. The front leg pain is now gone. And the word Moderate before was Mild to Moderate. The main problem is a little worse.


Diagnosis:
DDx: Persistant myopathy/neuropathy following resolution of endocrine disease, lumbar myelopathy, geriatric muscle weakness, other.
(I don't know how she turned that in to this which I think refers to the spine and about nerves. Maybe that's why those shots wouldn't work? Becasue the problem is with nerves?)

[Altira]

I took Kira to theropy today and gave this to July... I think you will like it....

-----------------------------

REGARDING: KIRA – BEGHTOL 1/9/2012

Dr. Ringwald,

First off, let me say that Kira’s attitude after therapy is amazing. She hops impatiently waiting for me to give her a boost up into my jeep. Then stands there stomping her feet at me, like she is seriously thinking about getting the dog crazies right then and there. This state of mind carries on for many days. No way can I create the same excitement in her. It’s the same reaction we got from her last March. We had to stop the therapy because my husband was having hip surgery. Kira was still getting around ok but she seemed so unhappy, I started feeling like I was loosing her for months and months. When Dr. Watson recommended you he said you could do far more for her then I ever could. I give a lot of credit to July too. My Kira is happy again.

QUESTIONS…

1.) Why do her hind legs splay out to the side when she sits? Could it be part of why she didn’t gain any muscle mass?

This happened right after TTA surgery. I do not understand why. No one else who has had this done seems to complain about it. It makes it hard for her to sit. Her hind legs just don’t seem to bend well and I think it has a lot to do with her stiff legged walk.

Note: I’m happy to report however, that even after just the two therapy sessions, her thigh muscles feel firmer to me.

2.) The fur on her belly has not grown back at all. It’s been a month. Should I be concerned?

History: Eight months after having the second TTA surgery, she still had not grown any fur at all. Her skin was turning dark even though I rarely let her get in the sun. Then three months after the Adrenalectomy, it all grew back in. We thought it was the Cushing’s preventing it from growing. She never had this problem before. It did grow back in oddly after the first TTA too but didn’t take long.


Lastly: Due to Kira’s amazing response to therapy and possibly the Gabapentin, I see no reason to start the prednisone at this time. I do want to continue with the therapy sessions and stay in contact with you however. Possibly for the rest of her life.


Respectfully,
Janis Beghtol

story
WALKING WITH KIRA LAST WEEK:
Several days ago around 9 pm, I took Kira for a walk. It was cold out but the cold does not bother her in the least. As we go along Kira is being naughty, insisting on pulling ahead of me. I keep pulling her back gently. "Kira! Follow!” Typical husky she slows down slightly but not for long. She also has this "I’m sniffing here!” attitude. I lean down to her sniffling nose and growl "let's go!" But you know, I'm smiling, because there is just a tiny spring in her step. It is very slight, maybe I’m imagining it. I don’t like being pulled however so I increase my speed to pretty much as fast as I can walk. Naughty Kira is still staying out front but at least there is slack in the leash now. I don't mind this pace at all. And she’s having a grand time. When we turned to cross the street, I smiled bending over slightly and quietly trotted up next to her. She looked over her shoulder at me and instantly…took off Running! She knew that meant come on let’s run! What a joy it was to see her take off in her powerful husky fashion. (It was only a year ago that we were running together all the time.) We hopped up the curb and I said, "ok, ok, ok slow down." I know she shouldn’t be running. But I am elated, my Kira she wants to run!

-----------------------

July was very pleased with my report, she loved the Walking Kira story and got answers to my questions.

1.) Yes, this is from the knee surgery which is made worse with the rearend weakness. She said they are working on correcting that.

2.) Don't stress over this, it will grow back.

(I wonder if anyone reading this is doing a happy dance about my lastly above? )

LASTLY: Yes I filp flopped again. July said they of course could not force me to do it, but please hold on to the pills. I told her that I hoped to continue our visits for some time and we agreed all three of us would monitor her for changes. I did not say I'd never do it.

I think if we can get kira to gain some muscle mass with gabapentin and the water treadmill that the doctors will be happier.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Janis,

This is a great report and I am SO glad that you and Kira are finding a bit of joy and the old excitement on your walks again. :) I can just see you bent over, grinning and growling, while she gives you this "HA HA" grin right back! :D

I hope you continue to see improvement with the current regime for quite some time.

Hugs and belly rubs!
Leslie and the gang

[Rebelsmom]

Great news to hear Janis. So happy Kira has a spring in her step again is wanting to run.

[Altira]

Ladies, thank you so much!

[Skye]

awesome awesome
interesting.....i know what your describing about the legs when she sits i think. Shysie does the same thing. will send you picture. i think you have seen it though. shaking head smiling at you luv, our girls. lol

[Altira]

TTA KNEE SURGERY

This is a good example of what I'm talking about. Although this is the only time I've seen her do it quite like this. Just picture her sitting up right (and back a little farther) with her legs splayed out like this.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=274&pictureid=3311

It looks pretty gooffy. Sort of like a frog. She doesn't seem to be in pain, just stiff. She doesn't like to sit. When she stands her legs are prefectly in line. I've searched all over the net... TTA surgery is the best way to fix ccl tears. It's done a lot. Yet no one mentions a splaying problem.

TTA Surgery = involves sawing off a piece of leg bone and moving it forward at an angle. It's held there with metal parts. And you wait for new bone to fill in the gap. (It's 12 weeks before they can run free again.) This prevents the top bone from sliding off the bottom bone. Fixing a torn ligament doesn't work in dogs. They think possibily Cushing's sotfens up ligaments. We certainly know that could have happened to Kira.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=274&pictureid=3486

As you know with humans a great type of excersize for your butt is getting up and down from a sitting position. Kira avoids sitting. And when asked to do it I can't get her to draw them in. July said if we can gain some muscle back there then she should be able to draw her legs in better. There is no doubt that the TTA surgery created this. She had one knee done and out the leg went, then the same thing with the other two years later. You can sort of picture the effect this has on her hips and possibly her back too. However... If your thinking about having this done, then do it. No more limping! My Kira would not be walking today if we hadn't.

[Altira]

WEIGHT CONTROL (for us slackers)

Dr. Sebestyen told me that Kira's weight was not bad at all compared to most dogs he'd seen with Cushing’s. So I thought I'd share how I kept Kira's weight down.

Other then the obvious... I always fed Kira low fat food. For a long time that was Eukanuba Light. The biggest thing was mealtime. I cut her kibble back by 1/3 and substituted it with a pre-made mix of raw carrots and celery chopped up real fine in a food processor. She loved the celery and carrots. I even gave that as a treat now and then. She doesn’t like celery but mixed with the carrots was fine. She got more celery then carrots.

I was able to stop her increasing weight at about 70 pounds and later got her down to 64 pounds pre knee surgery. I stopped doing the carrots and celery after her adrinalectomy and her weight dropped to 54 pounds on it’s on over the next year. She is starting to eat a lot now so I’ve stated it up again to maintain this weight.


Siberian Husky

MEALS
Eukanuba Light 1 cup with “pureed” raw carrots and celery ½ cup – (twice a day)
I have recently added cucumber too.

TREATS
light version of small dog biscuits (2 or 3 a week, if any)
large compressed rawhide bones (couple a month)
reduced fat peanut butter in Kong toys (once a month)
pound of cooked very lean hamburger (once a year - on birthday)
small raw carrots (lots)
broccoli stocks (whenever I had some)

GAMES
Sometimes she gets her meal time kibble in a treat dispensing ball
Find the cookie
I’d hide tiny bits of carrots in many rooms. (Never on counters or tables.) Behind things, under things, some in plain sight. I let the dogs in and say… “Find the cookie” and the fun begins!
Walking
2 miles most days or more and some running.

[Altira]

Hahaha...."worrying causes you to age in dog years" (by Stormee)
I fear I'm a chronic worrier.

[Altira]

Gabapentin possible side effects:
(dose 50mg 2 x a day)

KIRA has been taking it for about two weeks. It's making her maybe lazy? At times... She's not sleeping. I have to do a song and a dance to get her to get up for a walk. I start telling her like 15 minutes ahead of time. She's got this look on her face like... "I don't want to." Nope.... no is not an option.. got to get up and get those legs moving. She's not in pain, she's not limping, she goes two miles like it or not. She certainly doesn't hate it! And maybe it's not as bad as all that. She will get up sometimes right away or soon after. She does seem a bit wobblie at times too but mostly when she first gets up. And her appetite is definitly way up. Drinking has been excessive for many many months. I think that is just ingrained in her mind. I drink a lot some days too. The only time I see real excitment is if there is food invovled. It seems a lot like Cushings. But we know it's not. This started maybe a week ago.

[Altira]

CALLING ALL ANGELS!

PLEASE PRAY FOR MY 0NE YEAR OLD NEEKA!

I forgot about Neeka's odd like choking thing lately. (sob) it could have been an increasingly swelling lip. It was an odd licking of her lips. I was looking at her on the bad side too and suddenly it looked scary. This is really scary. She has a family history of cancer. One being mouth cancer, the other being MIRA. *

[labblab]

Angel Marianne reporting for duty!!!

Janis, tell us some more about what's going on with Neeka, OK?

[Altira]

Neeka has a vet appointment with new vet tomorrow
below is what I'm faxing to them ahead of time


1/18/2012

Neeka Beghtol
Born: Oct 18, 2011

Previous vet: James Watson (Villa Park)
Records: I have copies of all records to give you

Temperment: Neeka is hyperactive and hard to handle (but improving)

Always has: Coughs a lot when drinking or eating dry food

Pro Plan Puppy
Nov 1: Change her to adult food (major confusion)
Taste of the Wild Salmon (breeder feeds) it gave my other husky bloody diarrhea
Pro Plan Sensitive Salmon (temp - till I figure out what else)*
Fromm Surf and Turf (friend feeds Neeka's sister) Neeka stops eating it (see below)*
TOTW Bison (recommended by Scraps pet store) Neeka stops eating it (see below)*
Scraps pet supply recommends you…
Currently feeding all the above, whatever she’ll eat

Dec 30: noticed light bleeding (second heat)
Dec 31: Won’t eat! – Finicky or wont eat (maybe improving now) *

Since then:
less active some what

Breathing – fast and shallow 28 bpm (never did this before)
Late at night - For about 20 to 30 minutes
I can hear her breathing - Maybe she moves to cooler place

Licking lips oddly
Weird gagging
Something in throat?

No pain
Easy to excite – ready to play – anything
Relentless pestering our 11 yr old husky

Last night: noticed left side lip swelling and hard (no pain at all)

Family History:
Her grandmother died of mouth cancer - age 7 (maybe it was age 5)
Her aunt (OUR Mira) died a year ago from of liver and lung cancer - age 7

What I want: other then the obvious
Complete blood and urine test
Spay as soon as it is safe (as we planned after second heat)
Teeth cleaned if needed

[Rebelsmom]

Praying for you and Neeka.

[Cyn719]

Right here with you!! Sending lots and lots of prayers love and hugssss to you and Neeka!

xoxo

[labblab]

Janis, I was gone most of the day and apologize for being so slow to get back to you. Having said that, I'm afraid I'm pretty much stumped, especially about the lip swelling, and don't have a lot to offer other than my well wishes to you and Neeka tomorrow. But you'll have loads of them -- well wishes, that is.

Of course, the lip licking, gagging, and lack of appetite all sound like some kind of nausea/GI issue. Maybe acid reflux prompting some sort of partial regurgitation? I don't know about the other two foods, but I know that Taste of the Wild, while being an excellent grain-free product, does have a pretty high fat content. That's what I was feeding Peg when she had her acute pancreatitis attack. I just now received an email from another friend whose young dog was having chronic vomiting issues until she switched to a lower fat food. Many dogs do great on these newer moderate-to-high protein grain-free kibbles (like my younger girl), but the fat content does tend to be higher and some dogs just don't seem to manage that as well. So that's just one idle thought to toss out.

I'll be really anxious to hear the vet's report tomorrow. I know you are worried and surely understand why. Good luck to both you girls.

Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, my! I have missed all of this! :eek: How is Neeka? Have you seen the vet yet? I wondered if she had been bit on the mouth by something perhaps? Spider, etc?

Please let us know what you learn when you can and know that all the Angels are standing by your side.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Altira]

THANK YOU ANGELS!

Swelling much much better today! Just a small spot now. We see new vet in two hours.

[labblab]

By now, you're probably at the vet, so hopefully you'll soon be headed home with some answers. But one more idle thought -- it didn't hit me earlier, but I just re-read what you wrote about Neeka gagging and it sounding like she has something stuck in her throat. And it struck me, I don't know if your dogs have ever had "kennel cough" (or bronchitis), but that's exactly what the respiratory noise sounds like -- more of a gag rather than a cough, like the dog is trying to hack something out of their throat. it's a very distinctive sound. It sometimes even ends with them spitting up a little bit. I know only too well, cuz both my girls had bronchitis over Thanksgiving. So in combination with the fast, labored breathing -- maybe Neeka has some kind of respiratory infection going on. Once again, just a thought...

Marianne

[Cyn719]

Janis

Just checking in - hope all went well

Hugsssss xoxo

[Altira]

Leave it to the Angels to save us with a perfect bill of health from the new vet!!! Thank you my dear friends...

NEEKA UPDATE:

The new vet said the swelling was likely a bee sting, because it went down so fast. (I haven't seen a bee around since summer.) That also means she is allergic to bees. If she gets stung again the swelling will likely be worse and more dangerous. If she ever swells up suddenly again I'm to give her Benidryl and get her to a vet right away. He found nothing else wrong with her. And said she looked of show quality. She was a total pill while we were there. Yapping at every dog. Made it nearly impossible to fill out forms. Well that was my opinion. They thought she was well mannered for a husky. They did the blood test I requested which will also be used when they spay her on the first of Feb.
Sorry about my panic. With mouth cancer in her family history it really scared me.

Ok this is the forth regular vet I've seen in this area over many years. I'm no happier with this one. He talked and talked the whole time. How the heck can they listen to their heart and talk at the same time? He did spend at least 30 minutes with us yapping in details that were lost on my pea brain. It's a good thing I sent him my list of concerns cus I never got a chance to say much myself. He did find it odd that she started all these things after going in heat and almost seemed to think they were unrelated. She looked in great shape to him too. Dr. Watson would always just say she's a beautiful dog in perfect health. And to look at her I have to agree. The little scamp!

So in other words, Janis stop worrying!

Poor sweet Neeka, most certainly some of her up roar at the vet was because she had to poop really bad. Really bad. She didn't make it home. She was very up set that she pooped in the car. A GAINT pile of perfect poop! I went out with her to make sure she peed before we left. She told me she didn't have to poop. She lied!

Mutt and Jeff (3 weeks ago)

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=284&pictureid=3503

[Altira]

Marianne,

He looked down her throat pretty carefully and said all looked well. She had Boardatella shot and a DAPP shot today too. Neeka's gag and cough seems always related to drinking or eating. It only happens then. If I give her a piece of kibble as a treat very often she will cough it back up. Happens a lot. Her auntie Mira did the same thing but all the time (but never coughed up kiddle). Which was why I hadn't mentioned it to any vet before now. But there sure was an odd spell about a week ago. The vet siad she could have had something stuck in her thoat but there wasn't anything there now.

[jrepac]

Glad to hear that Neeka is AOK :D
That avatar photo of Kira is gorgeous.

All the best.

Jeff, Angel Mandy & The Girls.

[Altira]

Glad to hear that Neeka is AOK :D
That avatar photo of Kira is gorgeous.

All the best.

Jeff, Angel Mandy & The Girls.

Awe thanks. She's my sweetheart. That pic is from about 9 months ago. She's not looking so spry these days. But she is doing very well. Here is a recent doggie story you might enjoy:

STORY:
I got mad at Neeka for pestering Kira so I grabbed Neeka and started touching her all over her face with my fingers, just constant bite bite bite like she always does to Kira’s face. I had her by the collar. Kira saw this and got all excited. She ran over and started play-biting Neeka too. Neeka was helpless to fight back and Kira was having a great time! Revenge!

[Rebelsmom]

So glad to hear Neeka is ok.. Very funny story since I do the same thing to my younger (but bigger) pup Sadie. She is constantly bugging and pestering Rebel or even me sometimes. She has a problem with her tongue and has to lick anyone that comes near her over and over.. While I'm not gonna lick her I do grab her and hold her and wrestle with her but I never let her get the upper hand, it drives her crazy, esp when rebel gets in out it and runs up behind her and bites her back legs! She usually gives me a dirty look but it right back pestering with in minutes..lol

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, Janis,

I am so relieved it was nothing worse than a bee sting! However, it is scary that she is allergic to them. Do they make EpiPens for dogs? Wonder if the junior size would work? I have a friend who is allergic to aspirin and yellow #5 dye. I have seen her whole face and neck swell up after eating a MacDonald's hamburger to the size of a basketball in a matter of seconds it seemed. Frightening to say the least!

I would advise you to carry the Benadryl with you on all your walks, car rides, etc. just in case. After the hamburger episode, I always have some in my purse for my friend (she does too) just in case. That time, she swelled so fast she couldn't have told me what she needed in time - thank goodness, we had already talked about it ages ago.

After the crisis was passed, I told my friend I had never been concerned about her breathing (not true) but was very concerned her face was going to explode and ruin her perfect make-up job! :p

So glad to hear all is well!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Altira]

Melissa,
Cool! That gives me more insentive to do this more often. In fact anytime Neeka picks on Kira I'm going to do this. Instead of chasing Neeka off I'll just grab her and let Kira have at her. Besides it's good for Kira to get up and move around! Moreover, to be happy! Boy, Neeka is in for it now!! Lol

[Cyn719]

Janis so glad Neeka is fine!! Same thing happened to Penny - vet said bee sting - wasp - ?? She swelled up so bad - had to rush her in for a shot - twice!!! I have the benadryl handy all the time - I need to look into an Epi - I have one here for Mike for the peanuts why not one for her:) Not sure if they make them for dogs - vet never mentioned it to me?? The picture is so nice!!!! what beautiful dogs!!!!!

hugsssss xoxo

[Altira]

Leslie,

Yeah I need to get my butt to the store.

I wonder what the vet does when this happens. We have tons of bees out at the desert house. And NO VET! Maybe they give a shot? He said something about that. I wonder if I could get something like that to keep out there.

I'm hoping to get my husband to go through the wood pile in the doggie area. I'm not convinced it was a bee. Gee what happens if she is stung when we are gone?

[Altira]

Kira happy today...

She came out of therapy today with what looked like a hint of prancing! Got me smiling. I don't know if she is getting any stronger, but July seems to think she is. One things for certain ... She's having a good time. I even took her in Petco with me. She's never been in a store before. She still has issues but she's doing pretty good.

[Cyn719]

So glad therapy went well:) Always happy to hear good news!! FIELD TRIP to Petco - that always puts a smile on thier face:)

hugsssss xoxo

[Altira]

NEEKA TEST RESULTS NOT GOOD..

This is a new vet. I'm to go pick up med's today. Further tests are being done. Will have those in 3 to 5 days. The only noticeable symptoms is very poor appetite since starting her second heat 3 weeks ago. (Which I read is sometimes normal when in heat.) Maybe she is a little less active. A couple nights she was breathing fast and shallow for a short time. I told the vet about this. Highs and lows are in bold below, if I didn't miss any.

Vet said urine infection and possible a thyrod problem. All of which was not noticed upon examination. The complete blood and urine tests below were done at my request. (After loosing Mira it is now my policy to have this done every year for all my dogs no matter what. This is the only reason this one was done. This is Neeka's first one. I didn't expect a problem either.)



Patient Info:
Name: Neeka
Species: Canine
Chart No:33696
Breed: Siberian Husky
Owner: Beghtol Janis
Age: 1Y
Doctor: Wiatt
Sex: F

Hospital:
Pet Hospital
3411 E Chapman Ave
Orange, CA 92869

Lab:
ANTECH Diagnostics
17672-A Cowan Avenue
Irvine, CA 92614
Antech ID: 20151
Reported: 01/19/12 08:56
Received: 01/19/12

Accession No. IRBD94902874 Doctor Wiatt Owner Beghtol Janis Pet Name Neeka
Test Results Adult Reference Range L Normal H

Prothrombin Time
Prothrombin Time 9.9 6.0-12.0 seconds

PTT
APTT 11.8 10.0-25.0 seconds

Fibrinogen (Quantitative)
Fibrinogen, Quantitative 184 150-400 mg/dL

D-Dimer
D-Dimer <250 ng/mL
500-1000 Moderate elevation

Platelet Count
Platelet Count 345 170-400 103/μL
Platelet Est Adequate

CBC
WBC 16.9 4.0-15.5 103/μL HIGH
RBC 6.6 4.8-9.3 106/μL
HGB 16.8 12.1-20.3 g/dL
HCT 47 36-60 %
MCV 72 58-79 fL
MCH 25.7 19-28 pg
MCHC 36 30-38 g/dL
Platelet Count 345 170-400 103/μL
Platelet Est Adequate

Differential Absolute %
Neutrophils 9802 58 2060-10600 /μL
Lymphocytes 5577 33 690-4500 /μL HIGH
Monocytes 676 4 0-840 /μL
Eosinophils 676 4 0-1200 /μL
Basophils 169 1 0-150 /μL HIGH

Superchem
Total Protein 6.7 5.0-7.4 g/dL
Albumin 3.7 2.7-4.4 g/dL
Globulin 3.0 1.6-3.6 g/dL
A/G Ratio 1.2 0.8-2.0
AST (SGOT) 50 15-66 IU/L
ALT (SGPT) 22 12-118 IU/L
Alk Phosphatase 26 5-131 IU/L
GGT 5 1-12 IU/L
Total Bilirubin 0.1 0.1-0.3 mg/dL
BUN 17 6-31 mg/dL
Creatinine 0.9 0.5-1.6 mg/dL
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 19 4-27
Phosphorus 3.7 2.5-6.0 mg/dL
Glucose 47 70-138 mg/dL LOW
Calcium 10.8 8.9-11.4 mg/dL
Magnesium 1.7 1.5-2.5 mEq/L
Sodium 147 139-154 mEq/L
Potassium 5.0 3.6-5.5 mEq/L
Na/K Ratio 29 27-38
Chloride 111 102-120 mEq/L
Cholesterol 193 92-324 mg/dL
Triglyceride 59 29-291 mg/dL
Amylase 228 290-1125 I/L LOW
Lipase 339 77-695 IU/L
CPK 444 59-895 IU/L
Comment
Hemolysis 2+ No significant interference.

Total T4
T4 4.1 0.8-3.5 μg/dL HIGH

Urinalysis
Collection Method
Not Stated
Color Dk Yellow
Appearance Cloudy
Specific Gravity 1.045 1.015-1.050
pH 8.0 5.5-7.0 HIGH
Protein Negative Negative
Verified by SSA test
Glucose-Strip Negative Negative
Ketones Negative Negative
Bilirubin 1+ Neg To 1+
Occult Blood 1+ Negative HIGH
WBC 0-1 0-3 HPF
RBC 2-3 0-3 HPF
Casts/LPF None Seen Hyaline 0-3 LPF
Struvite (MgNH4PO4)
Crystals
2-3 HPF
Bacteria None Seen None Seen HPF
Epithelial Cells None Seen HPF
Fat Droplets 4-10 HPF

Urine Cortisol/Creatinine Ratio
Urinary Cortisol/Creatinine
Ratio
6

- - - - Urine Cortisol/Creatinine Interpretive Comment - - - -
Urine Cortisol/Creatinine Ratio = <13 : Cushing's syndrome is highly unlikely.
Urine Cortisol/Creatinine Ratio = >13 : consistent with, but not diagnostic for Cushing's syndrome. Patients with an elevated
ratio should be further evaluated for this disorder using the ACTH stimulation or low-dose dexamethasone suppression test.
Urine obtained for the urine cortisol/creatinine ratio should be obtained in the home environment. Urine obtained in the hospital
environment may yield abnormally high results because of the stress of hospitalization.
Note: The cortisol:creatinine ratio is determined by converting cortisol and creatinine values to molar units and then performing
the calculation. Urine cortisol/creatinine ratio = cortisol X 27.6/ creatinine X 0.0886

[Altira]

Janis, I was gone most of the day and apologize for being so slow to get back to you. Having said that, I'm afraid I'm pretty much stumped, especially about the lip swelling, and don't have a lot to offer other than my well wishes to you and Neeka tomorrow. But you'll have loads of them -- well wishes, that is.

Of course, the lip licking, gagging, and lack of appetite all sound like some kind of nausea/GI issue. Maybe acid reflux prompting some sort of partial regurgitation? I don't know about the other two foods, but I know that Taste of the Wild, while being an excellent grain-free product, does have a pretty high fat content. That's what I was feeding Peg when she had her acute pancreatitis attack. I just now received an email from another friend whose young dog was having chronic vomiting issues until she switched to a lower fat food. Many dogs do great on these newer moderate-to-high protein grain-free kibbles (like my younger girl), but the fat content does tend to be higher and some dogs just don't seem to manage that as well. So that's just one idle thought to toss out.

I'll be really anxious to hear the vet's report tomorrow. I know you are worried and surely understand why. Good luck to both you girls.

Marianne

Marianne.... I don't know how i missed this one. And just how many times do my dogs and others have to warn me about Taste of the Wild? As noted in my message to the new vet I've been feeding her all the things listed there which inclues TOTW but that was after the eating problem started. I'm currently feeding her TOTW!!! I really need to get her figured out and away from TOTW once and for all. So many red flags with that now. But I'm at such a loss. Maybe I better wait until we find out if she has a thyrod problem? She by the way, seems to have no problem at all changing foods. No adjustment time needed... That's a first with my huskies.

[Altira]

NEEKA MED'S

Cephalexin 500mg twice a day

(They may change that after the next test results...)

There is mention of a tumor in written report!!!!!!!!

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Janis,

I'm no expert on reading these labs but I do know that some of what you are seeing elevated could be the result of the UTI and once it is back under control, those values will come back in line. I will leave it for Debbie or Glynda to tell you more.

Tell us what they said in the report about a tumor. Is it in relation to the thyroid?

Did they talk to you about the crystals in her urine? Did they tell you if they are struvite, oxalate, etc? I see struvite on the list you gave but don't know if that means those crystal present are struvite - tho that would make sense. Often what makes sense to my mind is wayyyy off base, tho. :rolleyes::D The crystals in the urine, regardless of the type, could account for the presence of blood in the urine. As these crystal pass the urethra they can damage the lining of the tubes. Urinary crystals are not smooth - they are jagged, pointed little things, the shape telling what kind. You will want to know for sure what type of crystals are present as you decide a feed change. Different minerals cause specific crystals to flourish so it is important to know which type of urinary crystals you are dealing with.

I could be wrong, but all in all things don't look that bad to me, sweetie. There are some issues with the urinary system and apparently she may be hyperthyroid, the opposite of most of our cush pups who are hyPOthyroid. HyPERthyroid is just what it sounds like - a hyper organ, over-producing thyroid goodies.

Hyperthyroidism and urinary crystals can be managed quite well, and the ABs should take care of the UTI. The UTI could well be why her appetite has remained off - those things make you just feel like crap. :(

I know you are in a panic, darlin', but don't let your mind go there. This is just one of those bumps in the road all parents have with their babies.

Many hugs and gentle belly rubs,
Leslie and the gang

[labblab]

Oh Janis, I'm so sorry that you're dealing with these question marks about Neeka's labwork. Like Leslie, I'm wondering if the mention of the tumor was in relation to the elevated thyroid reading?

Also, did the new vet say anything about the low blood sugar (glucose) reading and the low amylase? I wonder if they are connected. Did the vet seem concerned that Neeka's glucose level was that low? I'm probably hyper-sensitive about that, but when Peg started having her seizures, her glucose level was one of the first things we checked because low blood sugar can bring on seizures.

Do you know what additional testing was done, and what results you're waiting for? I'm just so sorry that you have anything to worry about at all!

And don't get me wrong -- TOTW is supposedly a high quality food. I was just commenting on the fat content, which isn't restricted just to TOTW. Many other high quality, high protein kibbles also have fairly high fat contents. So it's not that I think it's a bad food -- I just wanted you to be aware of the nutritional profile.

Definitely keep us posted on Neeka's follow-up results, OK?

Marianne

[Altira]

ABOUT NEEKA

Leslie... Thank you so much for emailing that to me too. I got your message right way.

I sent all the results to Neeka (and Mira's) breeder. Below is her reply:

"Hi Janis


This does not look horrible. Things are slightly out of whack. The urinary track infection would cause several of these irregularities, the thyroid included. The antibiotics should clear things up.


Keep me posted. "

Stormee and I have been mulling over every inch of it too. Concidering what the possible out come could lead to. But she's telling me not to panic too.

I thought Neeka was just being finicky and have been only offering her dog food for weeks. Poor thing.. so I cooked up a whole bunch of chicken yesterday. The first time I gave it to her you'd think she hadn't eaten in months. Five seconds and its gone. Now she's getting mostly chicken and a small handful of Pro Plan Sensitive Tummy. Not eating it with gusto but she has cleaned her plate three times now. If her eating is a gauge to her problem... the three pills she has had have not made a gaint differance.

When the vet noted the words ultrasound and tumor I felt pretty scared. I had completely, well almost completely, expected near prefect results. And as any good mom would feel, I'm not too happy about what we got. I sure am glad we did it though.

But you know.....
this is really nothing compared to my husbands brother "Bob" who had a bone marrow transplant 3 days ago! He is misrable and will be for a very long time. There is a 43% chance it won't work. And it will take like a year to know that for sure.

Anyway...We had gone to see him the evening that Neeka got stung by the bee. And get this.... we went to see Bob again tonight. Before we left I was making sure the back yard gate was secure. As I walked back, here came this bee trying to land on Neeka's nose!!! What the hell? Neeka of course was interested. I screeched "no" at poor Neeka and shoed the bee off. I went in the house feeling very worried. So I went back out again (as any good mom would) and looked around for said bee. I found him real close to the same spot right where the dogs would be. Ok pal, your dead now! I went to step on him but he saw me and took off. He flew way up and over the house. So we are gone for 5 hours and I'm worrying that this stupid bee is going to come back! That's the first bee I've seen since summer. I couldn't find any hives around.

I need to teach Neeka how to stay in the house when we are gone. Not an easy trick with a 1 year old husky!

[Altira]

ABOUT NEEKA

Marianne,

This vet has an odd way of doing things. He relies on his staff to relay things to his cleints. They all seem very well trained, like maybe an extention of himself, if you know what I mean. They work so closely together that these people seem to know a lot. When he was examing Neeka and going on and on about things he was looking at his assitant often, as if making sure he was listening to what he was saying. I actully like the assistant better, he was easier to talk too. I have no problem with this at all. I did the same thing when I managed my dad's RV park. I tought everyone to do and say everything exactly the same way I did. Extentions of myself. I'm also very impressed with the way they handle test results. Everything I showed you above was emailed to me. If I could have pasted a pdf file here I would not have to type a single thing. As it was, I had to alter very little to show you every word written. On top of that.. this is the first vet ever to provide a hand written explination of the results. Which I will now type up for you the areas he found abnormal and his notes:

THYROID FUNCTIONS TESTS
(Notes) Thyroid levels can fluctuate throughout the day.
[X] Abnormal
Mild elevation - can recheck T4 in 1mo or ultrasound thyroid for signs of tumors etc.

COMPLETE BLOOD COUNT
[X] Abnormal
Mild elevation in white count

URINALYSIS
[X] Abnormal
High urine PH, strovite crystals possible urinary tract infection

OTHER TESTS
Culture & sensitivity ordered 1/21/12. We will call w/ results



This is all I know right now. It does seem like there is some forgotten things in there. But so many things can effect another I think. I know that wehn Sebestyen looked at Kira's CBC that is less then perfect, he said that this (whatever it was) is high but something else isn't, so then it's not a concern.

Now I'm wondering if waiting until after her second heat was a bad idea. I can't help thinking this is related. She STOPPED eating the exact same time she started bleeding. Something seems to have been sparked. Oh well, I debated over it with all the facts concerning our other three female huskys. Incontenace, breast tumors and growth rate and the contriversies currently going around about those things. I made my choice to do it differantly with Neeka. Anyway, I will be very glad when she is spayed. Our Sasha wasn't spayed until she was 7 and she almost died from an infected utrus (sp?). We didn't know what was wrong for a long time. This was twenty years ago. What if Neeka has the same thing? The vet tells me Neeka's problem is not related. I'm sure he's right. Even still I want Neeka spayed as soon as it's safe.

[Altira]

ABOUT NEEKA
Current email to Regular Vet.


ATTENTION: Dr. Wiatt
REGARDING: Neeka Beghtol

I just thought I would mention that if appetite is any indication in Neeka's current condition, that after 2 days on the med's you gave her, she is not responding. (That's 4 pills total, one Saturday night and two on Sunday and one an hour ago.) She will eat only chicken and she's not overly excited even with that.

This loss of appetite started on December 31, maybe even a few days before that. I know we have a test in process but I thought possibly you could put a rush on it, if you feel that is warranted.

Maybe she seems like she doesn't feel well but I'm a chronic worrier and I think my dogs may sometimes reflect my concern. I also wonder if the sample being tested may have sat too long to be actuate. But what do I know.

Also I had a husky that almost died from an infected uterus (she was 7 yrs old). Being that Neeka's problem started exactly the same time she came in heat, makes me wonder if Neeka has the same problem. I know you said it was not related (and likely you are right) but I will feel a lot better when she has been spayed. I of course wouldn't want to tax her current condition though. You would know way better on this then I would. I'm often wrong.

I will trust whatever you think is best...

Please Let me know what you think.

Respectfully,

Janis Beghtol

[k9diabetes]

Hi Janis,

Did the vet say anything about the low blood sugar?

Blood sugar is tied directly to cortisol levels and dogs with low cortisol levels - Addison's disease - will tend to have low blood sugar and also very poor appetites.

I also noted the mention of lip licking, etc., which could be a mild seizure.

The antibiotics have a good chance of causing as much problems with appetite as they will solve. Our dog felt poorly and/or threw up on several of them, including the generic Cephalexin. When he took the once a day Simplicef, which is also a cephalosporin, I believe, he did fine with that. Naturally, since it's about eight times more expensive!! But it was consistently much gentler on his system.

You can test blood sugar at home if you want to monitor her blood sugar and see if it is continuing to be low at home.

Diabetic dogs often get low blood sugar while at the vet - anxiety or stress - but I wouldn't expect a nondiabetic to have low blood sugar.

Natalie

[Altira]

Hi Natalie, no this was not mentioned at all. The low Glu is disturbing as are all the red flags. If it is a concern, I'm glad they didn't mention it cus I probably would have passed out. I'm feeling pretty blury eyed at the moment, can't hardly see the screen. The thought of a Thyroid tumor is terrifing and a family history of cancer. More surgeries, more beautiful dog coats ripped away and costs and waiting for friggin tests. Christ I even ran her to the vets this evening cus I thought maybe her gums were pale. They sure look pale to me. Maybe that's just a reflection of my face. The assistant mentions tumor... almost always cancer. I think I better hold tight to what Sherri (the breeder) said. And stop thinking about the fact that she doesn't seem to be responding to the meds. Ultrasound, my babies neck torn to shreads... wait wait wait wait... three more days for Urine Sensitivity and Colture test. Cryistals, blood in urine. Iv'e never had a dog with a high T4 before. Neeka is only a year and 3 months old. And what the heck is D-Dimer? Records, and notes, web pages.... **%%##@#* %-| :'( Think I'll go hug my dog. Maybe she'll sleep by me tonight (she usually does) and I can pet her. Where is my Sasha to tell me Kodi didn't eat the mouse?

Neeka never pins her ears ever!
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=284&pictureid=3507

[lulusmom]

Iv'e never had a dog with a high T4 before. Neeka is only a year and 3 months old. And what the heck is D-Dimer?

I had never heard of D-Dimer either so I did a bit of research. Apparently this is a test for a condition known as Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation (DIC) which is secondary to an underlying condition. One of those conditions is thyroid cancer. It must be too early in the morning for me to function just yet because DIC was some difficult reading but I think it effects the clotting factors.

http://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/clinpath/modules/coags/acqtbtp.htm

Janis, the T4 is a thyroid hormone that is often part of a routine blood chemistry. I believe you already mentioned that T4 can be a moving target throughout the day so it is possible that if you were to do another test today, the T4 would be normal. Hyperthyroidism is extremely rare in dogs and if the cause is not due to too much hypothyroid meds, thyroid cancer is suspected. Hyperthryoid dogs almost always have PU/PD and dogs with thyroid cancer usually have very swollen glands that can easily be felt in the neck. Is Neeka drinking and peeing buckets and did the vet notice any swelling?

You have mentioned family history of cancer in Neeka's lineage several times. Was the breeder aware of the genetic predisposition to cancer when she bred Neeka's mom and dad?

[Altira]

Hyperthryoid dogs almost always have PU/PD and dogs with thyroid cancer usually have very swollen glands that can easily be felt in the neck.

Is Neeka drinking and peeing buckets and did the vet notice any swelling?

NO NONE OF THAT. IN FACT THE TESTS WERE ALL DONE AT MY REQUEST. I HAD TO REMIND HIM AS HE WALKED AWAY. HE THOUGHT SHE WAS IN GREAT SHAPE. AND MY CONCERNS NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.

You have mentioned family history of cancer in Neeka's lineage several times. Was the breeder aware of the genetic predisposition to cancer when she bred Neeka's mom and dad?

SHE KNEW ABOUT Neeka's GRANDMOTHER MOUTH CANCER. MY MIRA (Neeka's AUNT) WE DIDN'T KNOW SHE WAS ILL UNTIL AFTER NEEKA WAS BORN. SHE STILL SOLD ALL THE PUPPIES NO PROBLEM AND WARNED THEM ALL ABOUT IT. MIRA DIED FROM LIVER AND LUNG CANCER.

NEEKAS GREAT GRANDFATHER LIVED TO BE 17!

[Altira]

For you Leslie... Baby Mira (She wanted me...)
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=264&pictureid=3516
The little boy was no where to be seen.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hugs!!!

Fate indeed....

[Altira]

Leslie... Smiling at you.

And I have some INCOURAGING NEWS. The vet assistant called just know to tell me he talked to the lab and the current test should completed today or tomorrow. He was responding to an email I sent them yesterday. I didn't want to let him get away without trying to get some relief! So I just said that this thing about a tumor is really worrying me. What are the chances of that? He said... You mean a thyriod tumor? ...yes... Much to my extreme relief he said... Oh that is very unlikely. The doctor doesn't think it's that.

Leslie... Maybe my little green clock is ticking madly away. Neeka was happily chewing a rawhide bone for the last hour and getting no where with it. Don't everyone cring at once. They have to put a lot of effort into getting anywhere with the super compressed kind.

[Altira]

Well that was short lived...

NEEKA UPDATE:

The vet assistant called:
No UTI found. Stop med's. See if appetite returns. Recheck T4. If still high, do ultrasound of thyroid. The vet thinks the next T4 will come back normal.


Name: Neeka
ANTECH Diagnostics
Owner: Beghtol Janis
Age: 1Y
Reported: 01/24/12 10:30
Received: 01/21/12

Test Results Adult Reference Range L Normal H
Urine MIC Culture #1 #2 #3 #4 #5
Source Urine
Preliminary #1 01/23/2012
NO GROWTH ON SOLID MEDIA IN 24 HRS.
Final Report 01/24/2012
NO GROWTH ON SOLID MEDIA IN 48 HRS.


... More waiting! That sure seems like it leaves a lot of unanswered questions! I think I rather it had been a UTI. At least it would have made since.

[labblab]

Janis, the next time you talk to the vet or the tech, I hope you'll ask them about the low blood glucose reading. I do not understand why that has not even been noted or mentioned. I am SOOOOOOOO sorry that your worry continues!! But I'm really wondering about the whole big picture, and it seems as though that ought to include the low blood sugar since hypoglycemia can cause a number of different symptoms.

Marianne

[Altira]

Yeah there is a whole boat load of unanswered questions. I'm working on a list. Yours will be on it for sure!

But you know, when you met Neeka it's hard to believe there is a darn thing wrong with her. Well that was true until she came in heat.

[Altira]

Finally something positive! I think.


I was searching "Understanding a Dogs T4 Blood Test".

"Sexual activity/hormone fluctuations affect thyroid health. Hormone fluctuations affect not only thyroid, but hip laxity. Thyroid "normals" vary by breed, age, performance level, etc. General "normals" are meaningless. Test intact bitches 12 - 16 weeks AFTER day 1 of the previous cycle. Animals should be fasted for 12 hours prior to drawing blood for the test"

She came in heat (bleeding) around December 30, test was done January 19. I purposly didn't feed her 12 hours before this appointment. . FURTHERMORE.... I just fed her dinner and she cleaned her plate! <moms smiling!>

[lulusmom]

Hi Janis,

Neeka's blood glucose was what some would consider dangerously low so I understand Marianne's and Natalie's concerns. Having had toy dogs my entire life, hypoglycemia can be life threatening for a tiny toy who is not eating so keeping Karo syrup in my cupboard is a must. Neeka is a much bigger dog but this can happen to big breeds too if they don't eat. I realize you fasted Neeka for 12 hours before the test but as I recall, she hadn't really been eating much before that either. Dogs can have changes in blood glucose due to hormonal activity during their heat cycle as well. As I recall, Neeka's blood glucose was 47 and 50 is considered to be the threshold where seizures and other problems usually start to occur. If I were in your shoes, I would ask the vet if Neeka's low blood glucose could have been a combination of very little food intake and her being in heat.

[Altira]

NEEKA UPDATE
MY LETTER TO THE GV
1-25-12 (today)

Important:
From: Janis Beghtol
To: Dr Wiatt
*
Regardinging: Neeka Beghtol
*
Would you please take another look at Neeka's records? There seems to be so many unanswered questions concerning her test results.
*
For one thing, I'm wondering why you didn't mention anything about Neeka's Low Glucose and Low Amylase on her blood test. Some of my friends with problems in this area are very concerned about low blood sugar, etc.*

And if she doesn't have a UTI why is everything else so way out of whack? The WBC count?
Why is the Urine test so bad?
*
The last Cephalexin I gave her was Monday night at 11pm and she still isn't eating well. She is not refusing to eat but she is very reluctant and isn't finishing it half the time. When she was a puppy, maybe about 9 months ago I had to buy her a Go Slow bowl because she was gulping food. I stopped use it about 5 months ago.
*
I read that a dogs heat can effect the T4 and make them not want to eat but I couldn't find anything else. She came into heat on December 30... started bleeding then.

I will say again that she seemed fine until she came in heat. I had no complaints with her before then. I don't work. I'm with my dogs almost 24/7. They are my life. They are always in the same room with me.
*
I would like to have her spayed as soon as it is safe. We have an appointment for that on the first of Feb. Did you plan to keep that or put it off?
*
What is it you had planned to do now? And when?
*
Please let me know...
*
*
Respectfully,
*
Janis Beghtol

[Altira]

NEEKA UPDATE
GV WRITES BACK

low glucose- probable artifact from red blood cells staying in contact with serum too long. We could always recheck the blood glucose in house with a glucometer. *no charge

low amylase is only a problem if meeka shows signs of not being able to digest food. mainly this test is done to detect HIGH values, which could indicate pancreatitis.

as far as the mildly elevated WBC , this is a mild deviation from normal and no action is needed.

only significant abnormality was the urine PH being high (8) even with a negative culture. we should recheck this in a few weeks and if its still high, we can discuss changing the diet to lower the pH. (note; vegetarian or low protein diets may also cause elevations in urine PH)

If the Cephalexin caused her to feel nauseous she could be experiencing food aversion.she may be associating the food with her upset stomach. you can try offering a different food...this usually resolves after a few days off the medication that made her not feel well.

I recommend keeping her appointment for the spay and rechecking thyroid 1 month after spay.

[Cyn719]

Janis

Just catching up with your thread --

sending you love and support - xo

[Skye]

glad some of that is cleared up.....how do you feel about things now? is there an increase risk of bladder stones with high PH and she has had crystals? guess if that is not happening at moment work on priority then focus on preventative so everything can stable out.
love and hugs!

[Altira]

ABOUT NEEKA

Thanks ladies!

I'm feeling some what better after what vet said. For the moment I'm sticking with that notion. Don't think my heart can take anything differant. But Neeka's appetite is no better though. She refused to eat earlier then again just now until Kira ate. Kira left the kitchen and Neeka ate slowly but cleaned her plate. Not what I was hoping for but releif just the same.. I was just about to text you Stormee cus I didn't think she was going to eat again!

Her poop was a little soft today.

The vet noted that low protein food can elevate urine ph. Soooooo.... I have

Pro Plan Salmon = protien 26% fat 16%
Fromm Surf and Turf = protien 30% fat 19%
TOTW Bison = protien 32% fat 18%

NB Sweet Potato and Fish = protien 21% fat 10% (kira's food)

Can't beleive I did this but I just fed Neeka TOTW Bison. It's the highest protien food I have on hand right now. I'm going to kill my dog with all this indecision!
He also mentioned vegies doing the urine ph thing too. Just before the blood test I was feeding the dogs carrots, celery, cucumbers, and broccoli. Quite a bit really for maybe a week or two. Are those concidered vegies?

[Altira]

ABOUT KIRA

Does anyone else have a problem with numerious pooping?

Kira pooped a lot minutes before going on a walk. She pooped three more times during our 30 minute walk!

Consistancy on the walk was semi soft each time. Not surprizing. This is not really new for her but she was pooping very little and normally not this many times. She also fell once when I pulled a her to come. That doesn't normally happen either.

That's nothing to be overly concerned about I know. But I was wondering if anyone else has this problem. She doesn't poop like that at home. At home she goes the normal amount three times a day well spaced apart. She seems to have trouble holding it while walking.

[Cyn719]

Janis

You have your hands full also. Right here with you! Hope you get the answered you need:)

Hugs to you and the fur babies xo

[lulusmom]

Hi Janis,

Dogs pooping while walking is usually not a problem because exercise moves the bowels. My dogs always poop more when we are out for a walk.

[marie adams]

Hi Janis,

Ella is almost 10 months now and I feel like she poops all the time. I thought she would poop 2-3 times a day because I feed her a good food--I have her on California Naturals Lamb (have switched to Venison)-no grains. I was feeding her a little raw from Northwest Naturals, but it seem like she was scratching and chewing on herself (of course we were feeding her Trader Joe's Beef Sticks and yogurt too). She also seem like her poop's were too soft--it is always something.... Now that I only have her on the dry food and nothing else--the scratching and chewing seem normal now and I think the yeast thing she had going on is under control too. I now know she is allergic to chicken and beef and that is really why she was having the itching problem. I still haven't brought back in the raw or yogurt. The point I was getting at is now her poop's seem very firm, but she goes a lot, but a little if that makes sense. Someday we will figure this out. :eek::o

I hope Neeka gets back on track soon!!!! :) Take care!!! :)

[Altira]

IMPORTANT QUESTION... ANYONE

Has anyone had their female dogs tubes tied?

NEEKA is to be spayed on Wednesday. My mother is having a fit! Her dog just had her tubes tied and she wants me to do the same.

[lulusmom]

Hi Janis,

Having the tubes tied (tubal ligation) doesn't eliminate the possibility of future problems, like life threatening pyometra or uterine cancer. It also would have no impact on a dog's risk of mammary tumors. If spayed before the first heat, that risk is pretty much eliminated. If you get the tubes tied, you will also continue to have to deal with twice yearly heat cycles. Aside from being a less invasive procedure and eliminating the possibility of the dog getting pregnant, I don't believe there is any other health benefits for a dog undergoing tubal ligation.

Why is your mom having a fit over this? Did she explain why she feels tubal ligation, rather than spay, would be better for Neeka? For a good understanding of the difference between the two procedures, ask your vet to explain them to you and then ask him/her which procedure he feels is best for Neeka. I'd be very surprised if tubal ligation was recommended.

[Altira]

NEEKA

My mom insists that her dogs had there tubes tied. And she insists I do the same for Neeka. That i should not put neeka thru that dreadful surgery. But The more I read about it the more I think she is mistaken. And I agree getting that all out of there makes chances for Neeka much better. Yeah mom looses this one I fear.

#1* Both Kira and Mira were spad as young puppies and both turned incontinent right after being spad.
*
#2* My un-spayed Sasha at age 7, had breast tumors, luckily not cancerous. Then she got an infected uterus that nearly KILLED her.
*
I told Dr. Sebestyen about my incontinent concern and he said to wait until after her second heat... That's why I did.
*
I just talked to the vet's assistant and he tells me the incontinent problem happens when they spay a dog too young, before the hormones do something, I forget now.

Neeka still isn't eating well. But otherwise seems much better now. Surely healthy enough to be spay.

[Altira]

KIRA UPDATE:

I got a call that they couldn't give Kira therapy today because of her neck pain. She doesn't complian about it but you can tell by how she moves that it hurts.

They said I need to go to the regular vet and have it diagnost. And probably get her started on the pred. They said they didn't want to risk it today because it was that bad. See if he recommends the pred. July came running back out and said its just because they are rehab and aren't alowed to diagnose it themselfs. Do you think there might be some legal issue in there?

I came home intending to do just as they asked but my husband is insisting there is nothing wrong with her neck! Well there most certainly is. Kira is very slow to look behind her. Her neck hurts I'm sure of it. Maybe they need it diagnosed before they can do any therapy for it. I don't know. But for the moment Kira's therapy has been halted.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Janis,

I would get Kira on into the vet to have her neck checked out. The PT folks can't really work with her until they know where and what the problem is because some of their manipulations could cause the problem to worsen if they don't know what/where it is. They need a target to work on and to know what NOT to do as well.

Yeah, if I were in your shoes, Mom and hubby would lose today. :p

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Altira]

Neeka is being spayed today. (sob) mom's guna cry. A glucose test too I think. With more tests to follow.

Soon as we get Neeka past this surgery... I will take Kira in first thing next week. She does not seem well. We will all just rest for a few days. I fear prednisone is going to be recomended. We'll see. She will see the new vet too.

[labblab]

Janis, I've got my wings on and I'm fluttering like crazy!!! :o

Giant hugs to all three of you girls.
Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Janis,

Sending lots of love, prayers, and healing white light flying Neeka's way today. Let us know how she is when you can.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Rebelsmom]

Sending good thoughts your way Janis.

[Cyn719]

Janis

sending you a big hug and lots of love support and strenght! Right here waiting to see how she is. xoxoxoxoxo

[Altira]

Thank you for all the worried fluttering!

Neeka is fine. Can come home at 5:30 pst. Not soon enough for me!

Good news! She said the in house glucose test is normal! And so was the pre op in house blood test. Hum ... I want to see that.

She was such a pill when I took her in. Standing up right, hopping on her back legs, trying to get to what she wanted!!! Dogs - People! Ever see excited huskies being hooked up to a sled? Sheesh! No leash or bending over required! Just grab the collar they hop along beside you. Well at least she was feeling good. Embarising!

I'm very concerned about Stormee (Skye).

[lulusmom]

Hi Janis,

The pre-op bloodwork your vet did was probably a mini chemistry that checks kidney and liver values only. The fact that they proceeded with surgery tells me that everything was probably normal. Please let us know when you get a copy from the vet.

[Altira]

NEEKA - PRE OP "SPAY" IN HOUSE BLOOD TEST
2-1-12

ALP 17 20-150 low
AMY 183 200-1200 low
GLU 113 60-110 high

WBC 19.08 + 10^9/l high (6-17)
LYM 7.85 + 10^9/l high (1-8.4)
EOS .92 + 10^9/l high (0-.8)
LY 41.2 + % high (12-30)
MO 5.1 + % high (2-4)
NE 47.4 + % high (62 -87)
MCHC 34.4 + g/dl high (31 - 34)

QC ok
HEM 2+ LIP 0 ??T ?
(not sure what this is)

And this is ok? Looks worse to me. More red flags. Nothing serious but a whole lot of milds!
This is a pretty good in house testing capability isn't it? All the counts are there except for the T4. Even has bars and grafts. It says "Vet Scan HMS" at the top. Is that some sort of machine? The comprehensive looks like it came from another machine. Hope I typed this up correctly.

[Cyn719]

Janis. So glad the operation went well. I know you are glad she's home with you:)

No word on Stormee?

Xo

[Altira]

Cindy,

I chated with her quite a bit, they gave her morphine so her spirits weren't so bad. (ha! My Neeka is also on morphine tonight.) She's facing a scary situation. I guess the doctors will discuss surgery with her tomorrow. I had a kidney infection once but I imagine this is much worse. Soon as I know I'll post in her thread. Since you requested i sent her your note. She was very touched.

[Cyn719]

Janis. Thanks for sending my note to her. I wanted her to know I've been there with a stone and I feel her pain but she will get through this ... She is one strong lady for sure! I just got in from vet with Penny but I wanted to check on Stormee before I posted about Penny. I will check back for an update!

Hugssss xoxo

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Janis,

First, thanks so much for keeping us updated on Skye! You are a true friend.

Now, I hope Debbie will look at Neeka's results but I can share with you what Dr B told me yesterday. Some of those same values are elevated on Squirt's labs yesterday. Down at the bottom of her report it says that her elevations could be due to "stress" or "inflammation with little stress". Dr B explained that what her levels meant was there was either a mild infection somewhere or inflammation or that she was simply stressed out from being at the vets. He said that EOS value usually indicated "allergy cells" but that they could also show up for other reasons.

I hope those levels simply mean that Neeka was very stressed, that being in heat caused some of that, and that now that she is spayed they will come back to normal levels.

You know I am no expert on reading these labs but wanted to share what Dr B said to me yesterday about some of these same values that are elevated in Squirt. ;) I hope when Neeka has the follow-up check, you will see "normal" across the board!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Janis. Checking in again. Any word on Stormee??

Send her my love xo

[Cyn719]

Update on Stormee on her thread

[Altira]

NEEKA

She won't eat still. Well she's only eating chicken now and sometimes not even that. She was just spayed on Wed. Tonight she grabbed a toy and started running through the house crying. I asked her whats wrong and she just stands there crying with this toy in her mouth, then she takes off for the bedroom. I let her out and she takes off for the potty yard, then stands there crying. So I left. She comes dashing back in crying. Running thru the house. She has never done this before. She's acting all scared. This girl had the world by the tail a month ago. Could this be a reaction to the hormone loss. Or a thyroid problem? She made not a sound since coming home from being spayed, which is really strange for a husky. She's been very oddly subdued. Her behavor has changed, except when going for walks. Anyone else experanced this?

[Squirt's Mom]

Mornin' sweetie,

Was Neeka in heat when she was spayed? This could be a sort of hormone withdrawal, but I am no vet. All those organs that were flooding her with hormones are now gone and she may need a period of adjustment. But this is just guess work on my part.

As for seeing something like this before -yes, to a degree but much worse. My SILs little pug, Sophie, has become a different dog since being spayed. She is often fearful, skittish, and has run off a few times acting absolutely terrified of us when we could find her. She has either come back home on her own after a few days to a few weeks, and I have trapped her a couple of times. She acts like she has been abused during these times she is so fearful. Of course, no one is going to find out what is causing this - gotta get that hair and those nails done every week ya know, can't afford a vet bill :mad: - but I think it is hormonal.

I would give Neeka time to fully recover from the surgery and loss of some of these hormones. Then if you are still seeing things that are "off", take her in to see the doc. Just MHO. ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[lulusmom]

Janis,

If you haven't done so already, call the vet and let them know what is going on. In my experience, most dogs do well after spay but it is painful and some dogs do act like Neeka. Pain medications can help. Infections are also possible. How does the incision look?

[Altira]

NEEKA

Her incision is weeping. I just emailed the vet and mention this and her not eating and odd behavior.

Neeka stopped eating and behavior changes started the same time she came in heat a month ago. And remained constant ever since She stopped bleeding about two weeks before being spayed. The toy crying started after being spayed.

There is a possible thyroid problem lumming and I read that it can cause behavior changes. But as we all know so can all this female stuff.

The incision weeping worries me some. All though it doesn't look bad. Just a thin line of dried blood that's a little shiny from the weepiness. The rest is normal pink. She doesn't have stiches, they glued her together!

[Harley PoMMom]

Any weeping is a concern, does the incision feel hot to the touch? Any redness anywhere? Does Neeka try to get to her incision, meaning is she trying to lick at it or any thing?

What pain medicine is she on?

[Cyn719]

Janis

It just hit me - when we had our golden spayed she did this -- she carried around one squeakie toy and cried and cried and would not eat - vet said it was false pregnancy!!

[Altira]

NEEKA
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=284&pictureid=3525
The vet wasn't concerned about her licking it at all. The instrutions seem the same. Just like don't let them lick it too much. It doesn't look infected to me but it is weeping!
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=284&pictureid=3524

Not giving pain meds.. She's not in any pain. Huskys almost never need it. It's really hard to tell if they are in pain.

[jmac]

Hi Janis,

I'm sorry Neeka is acting so strangely. Unfortunately, I don't have any advice for you, but I just wanted to let you know I am thinking of you and Neeka. I'm hoping you'll get some answers soon, and that Neeka will be back to her normal self.

Julie & Hannah

[Altira]

Janis

It just hit me - when we had our golden spayed she did this -- she carried around one squeakie toy and cried and cried and would not eat - vet said it was false pregnancy!!

That seems possible. She does seem desperate to protect her toys. She will berry things too. Rather well in fact.

[Cyn719]

Janis

My Amber did not eat for a long time - I would sit on the floor to try just to get a drop of food in her - she carried the toy - dug in the rug the floor her bed - cried and cried and cried -- and hid her toy and even nested with it - she would put that toy under her and lay on it. It sounds like it could be that for sure!!! Did you ask the vet about this?? I am betting on false pregnancy:)

[Altira]

Janis,

If you haven't done so already, call the vet and let them know what is going on. In my experience, most dogs do well after spay but it is painful and some dogs do act like Neeka. Pain medications can help. Infections are also possible. How does the incision look?

It's starting to look infected to me now. Looks worse. Of course its the middle of the night. Luckily the vet opens at 8am. I'll take her in. Poor sweet heart

[Squirt's Mom]

Mornin' Janis,

I hope Neeka is better this morning or on her way to the vet.

Cindy's story about carrying the toys reminded me of how Squirt was after her spay. She would NOT allow any of her squeaky toys to be played with or left out on the floor. She would very gently take them back to her bed and cover them up. She remained that way with squeaky toys for as long as she played with toys - those that squeaked, she treated like her baby. Today, she still gets this panicked look in her eye and has to check them out when she hears one squeak. It is so sweet and so heart-breaking at the same time. She would have been such a good mommy. :(

Please let us know how our sweet Neeka is doing.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Altira]

NEEKA UPDATE

Poor Neeka... She was allergic to the glue. They cleaned it off and gave her staples instead. Ouch! Poor thing!

This is interesting... She has to wear the cone collar today (24hrs) but after that if she licks it a little now and then that's ok. But not excessively. A few licks then off to do something else, that's fine, in fact it's a good thing.

He said its possible that she has false pregnancy. He said it well go away. He is concerned about her not eating

Awe Squirt wanted to be a mommie...

[Cyn719]

Glad it wasn't infected. But ouch to the staples. Well like I said Amber did not want to eat while going thru the false pregnancy, so maybe the appetite will come back soon. Will she have anything like chicken??

Xo

[Altira]

NEEKA

Maybe I should be more specific with this eating thing.

Before her second heat she was eating like 2 1/2 cups a food a day, with gusto. Anything I gave her. And running around like a total maniac. Ripping into Kira every chance she could get. Following me but keeping her distance. I looked at her and thought shes in perfect health! That's how it's been since we got her.

One month ago the day after her second heat started, she changed. Bingo! She refused to eat, came to a scretching halt, she is not messing with Kira, she's following me right on my heels (I love that part) and life just doesn't seem so happy. What's wrong?

She is eating everyday anywhere from a 1/2 cup to 1 1/2 cups a day and that's mostly chicken. I try and try to get her to eat the dog food and now and then she does. She is always so reluctant to eat.

She's lost 3 pounds in the last month. Which brought her down to 45 pounds which actually is a very good weight for her. Then we did the the blood and urine tests that tells me her health has possible question marks.

So when I say she's not eating I guess I should say something still seems very wrong. And being that behavior changes and refusing and or reluctance to eat are common red flags I remain concerned. And the poor vet probably thinks I'm nuts.

[Squirt's Mom]

And the poor vet probably thinks I'm nuts.

Well, I know you're nuts, but that's just one of the many reasons I love ya. :p

I think I would give her another day and if she's still not acting more like her old self, then I would go back and ask that she be looked over thoroughly - if for no other reason than to remove some of your worry.

I hate that nagging feeling that something just isn't right but the vet says everything is ok. I have had that feeling before and it is very uncomfortable. Of course, most of the time I am making mountains out of mole hills - ahem, like turning boobs into cancerous tumors. :rolleyes::o But, I'll take making a fool out of myself every time over the horrors my mind can create. ;)

Try to get some rest and enjoy the calmer Neeka. She may never be as rambunctious as she was before the spay. I think all of mind calmed down afterwards...well, except Crys - she didn't have a "calm" button. :D

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Altira]

Oh Leslie your always good for a laugh! I remember the boobie thing.

Neeka has to be ok. Nothing else is exceptable that's all. That is if I don't kill her off myself! And go feeding her something that gives her diahrea again like I did TODAY! I gave her a handfull of this new food I bought. That I was going to wait to try but of course didn't. Four hours later she's got the poops! Poor thing. I need to stop wishing for a miricle. Anyway. I know what I gave her gave her the poops so I took it upon myself to give her metrondozal (?). She's going to be fine. I already desided.

She is sleeping near me in one of the sofa like dog pillows I bought them for Xmas. Around her in a big circle is about eight differant toys. A pink football under her chin. All of her babies! Her paws are flapping away in her sleep. Breaths are long deep and slow.

Kira is sprald out on the floor near by. Oh, well now there is a lot of laping going on. They both woke up. Both looked my way and now going back to sleep. It's a dogs life. Wake up- make sure mom didn't get away and go back to sleep. Love them to pieces for sure!

[Altira]

NEEKA False pregnancy

She has it for sure.....
Below are some facts I found on it that do, or could, pertain to Neeka. My notes are in italics. ANY COMMENTS?

FALSE PREGNANCY

Causes
• False pregnancy is caused by hormonal mechanisms that are poorly understood. In intact dogs, the reproductive system goes through several stages on a regular basis. Hormonal changes, primarily decreases in progesterone and increases in prolactin, are probably responsible for false pregnancies.
• Some pets that were spayed during the diestrus phase of the reproductive cycle when progesterone level is high can have a false pregnancy even after they are spayed.
It was my understanding that it was fine to spay a dog at anytime ecxept when bleeding.
• Some pets with hypothyroidism may have blood changes, which can cause stimulation of prolactin. This can also cause symptoms associated with false pregnancy.
There is that word again... "Thyroid".

What to Watch For
• Nesting behavior. Animals that are going through a false pregnancy will often attempt to make a nest by tearing up papers and blankets.
She has created a nest but she's not ripping things up.
• Mothering activity. During a false pregnancy, your pet may mother shoes, toys and other articles.
This is were she excells! She is mothering her babies big time. Crying and at times, very upset. Runs through the house not knowing what to do. This started very suddenly "I think" two days before being spayed. All she ever did before was torment Kira. Now she ignores Kira completly! This is a giant change!
• Mammary gland enlargement. The mammary glands may be large and secrete milk or serous fluid.
• Mild signs of illness. Weight gain, mucoid vaginal discharge and abdominal swelling may occur during a false pregnancy; however, if your pet shows these signs and seems depressed or is lethargic, it would be wise to have her evaluated by your veterinarian to ensure that nothing else is wrong and that it is truly a false pregnancy.
I don't call it lethargic cus she doesn't seem sick. She however, is oddly subdued. Much less active. But gets these spirts of crying suddenly. And of course the eating problem.

Poor little Neeka. She almost reaches hysteria at times. Luckly it doesn't last long. I think the "onset" of this may be what I was seeing when she first came in heat. Why I kept saying she's changed! I hope it doesn't get worse. She'll get the staples out in a few days and we'll see what the vet says.

[Cyn719]

Janis

Really sounds like the false pregnancy. With my Amber it did last a
Long time. I can't honestly remember but at least a month:eek:

Xo

[Cyn719]

How is everything going today??

Is the eating better??

Hope so:)

Hugs xoxo

[Altira]

Thanks for asking Cindy. No she's not eating any better and the FP thing is still in high gear but that black cloud doesn't seem to be following us around at the moment.

DOG STORIES
When I took the dogs for a walk yesterday Neeka jumped completely over Kira three times. That's how happy she was. And Kira did a good job of keeping up. Thats what Neeka likes to do at the dog park... jump over other dogs. In puppy class she would get tackled by two lab puppies bigger and heaver then she. And you'd see her suddenly leep up from between them and off to the side only to dive back in and do it all over again. Dive, leep, dive, leep! Was the only thing she learned in puppy class I fear.

We also had a cat dash across the street, than dash BACK to our side again. Bloodly hell, I was hanging on for dear life. Neeka's leash got wrapped around my finger. Luckily the dogs are also clipped to my belt too. Neeka is going every which way and Kira giving her all to drag me to that bush where the cat disappeared! I managed to turn them around and we went off in the other direction. No way was I going to try to get them past that bush! Stupid cat ....

[Altira]

A LESSON FROM THE DOC

Neeka had her recheck today and I had a few questions for the Doc Wiatt today. I figured I'd take up maybe 5 minutes of his time. What happened was I got a major lesson in the realm of diagnosing things. Most of which seemed to be similar scenarios and over my head. He talked non stop for nearly 30 minutes! I did record it but I don't know if I can sit thru all that again. LOL It reminded me of computer programing. You can't just count on one thing to only effect one thing. You have to look at the whole picture and consider all the things around it too, be aware of which things can have the most significant results. The dogs appearances, reactions, physical exam, and everything the owner tells them matters just as much as test results, when considering a diagnosis. He says almost never does a CBC come back completely normal. It's when something keeps raising that it becomes a possible concern. There are a lot of area's that can be effected by how the sample was handled, and the dogs state of mind at the time the blood was taken. So in his opinion all the highs and lows we have seen could easily be nothing from what he's seeing. He said something that my (doc) brother has also said, and it was "is this test believable?" So you got that in there too. To look at Neeka it's hard to believe there is something wrong with her. That much is pretty clear. But her test's weren't so great either. I certainly agree that she is in no immediate danger... but we will make sure.

She was just spayed 10 days ago..

His concern for Neeka right now is the high urine ph. He's not convinced that there isn't a UTI. We will redo the urine test in a few weeks. And also the high T4, which we'll recheck in a month.

Depending on what comes from that I will most likely want another CBC in 6 months.

Story:
A lady in the waiting room asked if I knew about Meska the I Love You husky on you tube. Yes in fact Neeka takes great interest in this too. She looked at Neeka and said.. "They are talkers aren't they." As if on cue, Neeka starts making all these silly noises at her.
Rummmm Rum Rummmm Rummm.. Lum (squeakie whine) Urrrrr Uuuurrr Uraa! She says... whatever that means...

[Cyn719]

Janis

Cute stories!!!! Stupid cat!!! lol Well at least she is happy - just wish she would eat better - maybe in time when the FP lets up -- hopefully soon!!!!!

Love and hugs xoxo

[Altira]

Whoof! Whoof!
Happy Valentines Day

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=284&pictureid=3555
"Husky Heart"
From Kira and Neeka

[labblab]

Oh Janis, I LOVE this photo!!!!!!!!! :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY TO YOU, TOO!!!!!!!

Love, Marianne ;)

[Cyn719]

Same to you Neeka and Kira:)

Love Penny xo

[Squirt's Mom]

What a cool pic!

Same to you and yours, sweetie!

[Rebelsmom]

Happy Valentines Day to you and your pups! :)

[Cyn719]

So how are you and the babies doing? How is Neeka? Is the false pregnancy any better?? Hope so!

Hugs xoxo

[Altira]

KIRA HEALTH UPDATE

Doctor William Waitt
Pet Hospital Orange, CA
Feb. 15, 2012

Kira went to see the new vet for the first time today. Because the place she was getting therapy requested her neck be examined by a vet.

I have the whole thing recorded on my iphone but for right now here is what I remember.

Kira has never had x-rays of her neck and back and he said he could do it without putting her out. Wonderful! Do it! The x-rays were very good. Very clear to see the problem. They result wasn't so good though. From the middle of her back down is a mess. At least one collapsed vertebra. And several others in bad shape and she does have neck pain. He turned her neck way to the side and she cried. The three vertebra at the base of her neck were not good. They gave me a cd of the x-rays, I should be able to extract pictures from it.

He used this syringe looking thing that had a flat metal end. It would click when he squeezed it. He pressed it against Kira and clicked it. He noted that every time he did it her leg would move. If I remember right, as he worked his way down her back, when he got near her tail her rear end gave out. She didn't crash to the floor but her rear end fell about half way. He said that what he was doing was actually a treatment and can help make her better. He wants her to come back two more times to do this and see what happens. He said there were several things they could do there.

He also said that if incontinence becomes a problem at some point he can give her a shot that will stop that from happening for 6 months. Cool!

He doesn't want her to take any med's at all for awhile. But did say that in the end prednisone might be the way to go. He was talking about just a very small amount, like once every three days. But there are lots of other things to try first. And in no way... did he indicate that prednisone must be done right now.

He said there could be tumors and other things that wouldn't show up on the x-rays. But for me... judging from what I see from Kira and what the X-rays show, it looks about right. I was wrong about the rear end weakness being the problem. It's her back, just like the other place said it was. The water treadmill certainly did her no harm but it wasn't dressing the problem either. Which also seems right to me. Nine therapy sessions and the legs may have gained more muscle (felt stronger to the touch) but the problem was still there.

I'm plenty happy with the direction he's talking us. I will review the some 45 minutes of conversation I had with him and tell you of anything else of interest. I'm so glad to have the X-rays. I didn't think they were possible without putting her out. I never requested them just for that reason. And once again I am impressed with this vets "in-house" capabilities.

Sadly Kira will never be able to go to the dog park with Neeka. And she'll never be able to really play with Neeka. But they certainly can go for walks together and that's the most important thing really. He didn't say it but I get the felling Kira will be able to walk for some time yet. And of course we will give every chance to help see to that including prednisone.

[Altira]

This is the device he used on Kira.

Activator (spinal accelerometer)
This devices fires a very fast and concise force to the subluxated vertebrae. It takes at most 4 milliseconds to administer this force. The fast speed of the accelerometer, combined with its small mass, allows us to administer a concise force only to the problem area. Since there is no pain involved, anesthesia is not needed.
This is the manual activator.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=274&pictureid=3560

[Squirt's Mom]

Mornin' Janis,

I am so happy that someone has finally said, "here is Kira's problem" and has a plan of action that can help her. That is wonderful! :) I know it would have been better if her spine wasn't in such bad shape, but now you KNOW what is wrong and that there is help.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Altira]

Yeah there is no question now what the problem is. Although I'm not too certain about the current treatment. She's been out of gabapention and she doesn't look like she's feels real well. I wonder if the treatment and the X-rays might have hurt her some. You know being bended this way and that. I am greatful for the X-rays though and having proff of what was said. And she was actually looking like she was hurting prior to the visit to the new vet. I told him I wasn't sure if the gabapenton did anything. Now I'm not so sure that was correct. If only they could talk!

[Altira]

NEEKA
DOGGIE DAY CARE REJECT

Took Neeka to doggie day care today for the first time. They won't take her. They tested her on three differant dogs and she just won't leave them alone. She's just too high energy. He said her potential to get bit is too high. Wonderful. I guess I need another dog her age. That's not going to happen. Poor Neeka. I cant let her play with Kira. Poor Kira. Damn. I was hoping to spend some time with Kira alone today. Neeka is locked outside alone right now. Poor Neeka. I guess I'll take her for a run beside the bike. *

[Cyn719]

Awwww so sorry about Kira but at least you now know. Sorry they cant play...yes poor Neeka poor Kira. What's meds does kira take? How old? Penny's prob is all in her lower back. Ugh these poor babies. Omg you need to bottle up that energy and sell it!! Lol lol:D

Love and hugs xoxo

[Altira]

LOL! I'd be rich! Ah she's a good girl.

[Cyn719]

Lol lol. I look at Kira's avatar everyday....ummmm yup she's 11!! Hahaha

[Altira]

KIRA UPDATE:

The new vet (Dr. Wiatt) is concerned about Kira's thyroid. I thought this was really odd. She has been tested for that often and it never was a problem. I mentioned it to Stormee and bless her heart, she listened to my recording with Wiatt. She kept telling me I should be concerned. Ok so I set about checking into and I think it might be correct. Hyperthyroidism rather fits. That's the bad one that dogs almost never get and when they do it's normaly cancer. Here is what I'm seeing:

This is a list of symptoms for Hyperthyroidism:
(I have added notes to where it fits and doesnt fit)

Symptoms and Types

Involves many organ systems due to the overall increase in metabolism. *** HUH?
Weight loss. ****** YES !
Increased appetite ******* YES !
Unkempt appearance****** YES !
Poor body condition ******NOT GREAT BUT NOT POOR EITHER**
Vomiting ****** YES?
Diarrhea **** NO
Increased thirst (polydipsia) **** YES ! (maybe 10 cups a day as of now)
Increased urine (polyuria) ***** YES !
Rapid breathing (tachypnea) **** NO
Difficulty breathing (dyspnea) **** NO
Heart murmur; rapid heart rate; particularly an abnormal heart beat known as a "gallop rhythm" *** MURMUR MAYBE?
Hyperactivity. **** NO !!!!!
Enlarged thyroid gland, which can be felt as a lump on the neck. ***** NO? THE VET SAID NO


Here is Kira's T4 test History:

Sept 2003
T4(ria) 2.57

2004 Cushing symptoms begin?

May 2007
T4 1.7

Pre ardenalectomy
Oct 2010
T4 1.4 (0.9-3.9)
T4 ED 14.2 (9.0-47.4)
T4 ED 1.1 (0.7-3.7)

Post ardenalectomy
Feb 2011
T4 1.6 (0.9-3.9)
T4 ED 1.0 (0.6-3.7)
T4 ED 12.9 (7.7-47.6)

July 2011
T4 2.2 (1.0-4.0)

Dec 2011
T4 2.8 (0.8-2.9)
T4 ED 30.9 (8-40)

It sure looks like it dropped when Cushings started and after the adrinalectomy is on the increase. The most disturbing thing to me is her fur. I started complaining about it way back in may and it's still driving me nuts! It always looks dreadful. A few days ago I found a picture of a dog with a thyroid problem. The fur! That was it exactly! Kira's is doing the same thing. We are out of town right now but I sent that picture to the vet and told him if this dog has a thyroid problem so does my Kira! Yes I want her tested. Soon as we get home. Dr Wiatt siad dogs normally have a lump in their neck and he said that Kira did not. So I don't think we are in giant danger yet but we maybe headed there.

[Skye]

On the testing it is all T4, i think there are other tests for the thyroid as well. But maybe they dont test other things until they see visbile physical symptoms to like now? Because isnt her T4 still within normal ranges?
sorta like it takes clinical and medical.
i have not heard of the instrument used to treat her back. Shysie has many back issues and i worry bout what is to come with that. I have been looking at support braces, and treatment. just to see what is being said and what is working and what isnt. Even little carts. i read that most times the animals seem very happy with their wheels, lol!!!! and the quality of life does not dimish. I was happy to read that. Love seeing positive feedback on things that are helping.
safe travels!

[jmac]

Hi Janis-

I finally have some time to catch up on the forum today. I read your update about Kira's back. My Hannah has had back issues as well (they suspect a disc in her middle back is the issue) and she has had acupuncture as well as laser treatment (which was easier, cheaper, and faster) with great success. I went to separate vets for the two treatments, but I know that in many cases they think using a combination is even better. It was amazing to see the progress Hannah made after a few acupuncture treatments, and recently we tried the laser, as I knew it could reduce inflammation. She was already walking okay, but about a week after one laser treatment (they did her entire spine) she had a pep in her step that I have not seen for months and months.

Is it possible for Kira to get acupuncture and/or is there anyone using the laser treatment in your area? For both you typically need to get a few treatments to see a difference, but I definitely saw improvements after each visit. I can tell Hannah's pain was drastically reduced. I can't recommend either highly enough.

Here is a link to the laser treatment Hannah had. My parents' vet is also using it and they have seen great success as well. It must not link every clinic because I don't see my parents' vet clinic listed. The person I saw actually travels to many clinics, including my vet's office. There is also a lot of information about how it works and what you can use it for. They sell them in as individual sessions or in packages that can save some money.

http://www.litecure.com/companion/

I am so glad someone was able to find out what Kira's problem is, and that you have some ideas about what you can do about it.

Julie & Hannah

[Altira]

Julie thank you for that! We live in Orange County California. I'm sure there is anything you can imagine around here. Actually the current vet has a laser thing. Last time we were there he had me run my fingers down her spine and showed me a lump that he said was nerves. When she gets up she arches her back real high and walks off that way. She stands with her neck lowered sometimes. Rather looks like a dog with Wobblers Disease.

Right now I want to get her Thyriod checked better. First part of next week i hope. He said even that could be related to her back problem and could possibly fix everything. I doubt if we'd get that lucky but something has been making the lower part her fur really weird for a year now. I've never found anything like it until I went looking into the thyroid. This weird fur thing started about two months after the adrinalectomy. Could be something up with the remaining adrinal gland too but not something that would create Addison's.

[jmac]

Hi Janis-
You're welcome. I would highly, highly recommend it. They say some dogs show amazing improvement, even after only one session. My parents' collie had a treatment yesterday and my mom said he already seems better today, but they will still get at least two more sessions. It runs about $60 for one treatments, $150 for 3 sessions, and $300 for 6 sessions here. Hannah's acupuncture was $80 per treatment. They also recommend doing it for at least 3-4 times to see if it works. The nice part about the laser, besides the fact that it is cheaper, quicker, and possibly easier for the dog to tolerate (Hannah wasn't a huge fan of acupuncture, but it sure helped her) is that they can do a few sessions within one week if needed, whereas acupuncture you usually wait a week. I would look into it for sure. I have had back and neck pain and it is so uncomfortable. There is nothing like a good massage when I am really hurting. That's what this is like for them.

Please let me know if you have any questions!

Julie & Hannah

[Altira]

KIRA UPDATE -- Happy Happy

Dr. Wiatt, reviewed the many past T4 tests I sent him (posted above) and decided further thyroid testing isn't needed. And he's absolutely certain she does not have the bad hyperthyroid version. Her thyroid glands feel perfectly normal. He even said the high lipase that's been following her for years is not a concern. Or the liver and kidney notations on the December US. Nor is her excessive water drinking. Her urine tests are fine. The only problem he sees is her neck and back but the gabapenton seems to be handling her pain from that just fine. I'm giving her 100mg twice a day. She seems to have no side effects from it at all. The docs parting words today were... "for an old dog she's in good shape." :D

I don't know if the back treatment he is giving her is helping for sure but she does seem a little better. She was standing up looking around on the way to the vet. She even wanted to jump up into the car by herself too. You could just see it on her face. But I talked her out of it. She wouldn't have made it but she felt good enough to want to try. Cool!

The only thing that isn't explained is her weird matted dry looking fur. Her rear legs slip out from under her on slick floors easy too.

The truth of the matter is Kira has been studied by four very cabable vets in the last 3 months. Her neck and back is the only thing of concern to them.

I'm so glad he halted the T4 tests and save me some money. I'm sure I'll be wanting to do another CBC in 3 to 6 months.

--------------

SPECAIL NOTE... Kira's birthday is March 27. She will be 12 years old. The last year and a half was very trimatic for her and me. With Cushing's, sudden lameness, Mira's traggic death, the Adrenalectomy and this nagging feeling that I was loosing her. I often hugged her in tears and asked her to please make it to 12. Well now with a little over two weeks to go... it looks like I'm going to get my wish. If you are reading this I hope you will stop back by on March 27th and help me cheer happy birthday to my Kira. I can't tell you how happy I am about this birthday.

[jmac]

Great news, Janis! And I am so happy to hear she is so close to her 12th birthday!

I'm telling you, look into the laser treatment! See if you can try it out for her back and neck. Hannah just had it again on Fri. and my parents' collie had one too, and they are going to get more.

Hannah really is different after the laser. Acupuncture also was wonderful, but after the laser she has the bounce/pep in her step that I haven't seen for soooooo long--about a year. It seemed to take away so much discomfort. I know two vets who have used it on themselves and/or family members with back issues and they say the pain relief is amazing.

So glad to hear she is doing so well! Those are great words to hear from your vet!!! :D

Julie & Hannah

[Altira]

HAPPY 12th BIRTHDAY KIRA!
(March 27, 2012)
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=274&pictureid=3656 http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=274&pictureid=3657

We had a doggie day... went for a ride and romped in the desert. For the last year I feared she wouldn't see her 12th birthday. I'd hug her and say "please make it to 12 Kira!" Words can not say how thirlled I am you made it here... and doing so well.... THANK YOU to all the angels who traveled with us and prayed for my Kira.

[frijole]

Well well well... what a way to start out the morning! :D This just put a huge smile on my face.

Dear sweet Kira - this is your day. You made your mama and all of us very proud. Enjoy every moment, feel the love and no doubt enjoy the treats you will receive.

Special day for a special dog. Happy Happy Happy Birthday Kira!

[labblab]

Oh, can I please join the party, too????????? :p :p :p :p :p

I am so happy for you girls, and so proud of Kira. She has been through so much, and is such a brave and beautiful girl.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, SWEETIE KIRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope you all have a wonderful day,
Marianne

:D :p ;) :) :D :p ;) :) :D :p ;) :) :D

[addy]

Happy Birthday Kira


Have a special day, Janis I know how happy this day is for you.

love,
addy

[bgdavis]

Happy 12th. Birthday, Kira! Wishing you many, many more!

Bonnie and Angel Criss Ann

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

Happy 12th Birthday to Kira! I'm so glad she was feeling better and got good news yesterday!!

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, this is without doubt one of the happiest birthday wishes I have ever wished! Our girl has been such a trooper and has brought us all to tears and laughter along her journey. This is such a special, special day!

Love and hugs,
Leslie, Squirt, Trinket and Brick


Happy, Happy, 12th Birthday, Kira!!!

[Cyn719]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU
HAPPY BIRTHDAY DEAR SWEET KIRA
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wishing sweet Kira a very very special 12th birthday!!!!!!

I know Mom is spoiling you today:D:D.....welll Mom does that every day....thats what us moms do!!! hehehehehehe

Love you

Aunite Cindy and cousin Penny:):D
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo

[Altira]

Thank all of you so much for stopping by to celebrate with us. As Cindy said in her thread... "we need to shout it from the roof tops!" I certainly have wanted to... It's been a long scary road but we made it! My Kodi, who was Kira's not so distant cousin, only lived 11 years. So not only was Kira's plight hard indure but so was the short life span in Kira's family. Both Kira and Kodi were bigger then normal Huskies. Kira actually passed up Kodi about 4 months back but I really really wanted this 12 so badly... This birthday was more like a desperation. Eleven years was just too short. Should she make it too thirteen, I would feel truely blessed. Thank you again for celebrating this day with us!!!

[Buffaloe]

My money says Kira is going to make it to 13 easy!

[Altira]

My money says Kira is going to make it to 13 easy!

Can I hold you to that??? lol Well I havent had a vet tell me it's not possible.

Kira is doing well and so is Neeka. I wanted to mention that Neeka was just re-tested and everything came back much better then previously. Seems that second heat really had her messed up for awhile. She has since been spayed. :)

[Casey's Mom]

Happy Birthday Kira !!!

[apollo6]

Happy Happy Birthday Enjoy your day.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Altira]

KIRA UPDATE

jmac... You will be happy to know I'm sitting in the parking lot waiting while Kira has a Laser treatment. She had a really ruff week. Been doing some yelping which brakes my heart. She just had another evaluation on her neck and back which I will post soon.

[addy]

Hi Janis,

I sure hope the laser treatment helps Kira. Now you have me wondering if it could help Zoe's paw:D:D:D

hugs,
addy

[Altira]

I don't know ... So far I'm not impressed. I just took her for a walk and we didn't do very well. She didnt want to walk. Wouldn't walk really. Just stop and smell everything. So we just went home.

[LillyMae]

I don't know ... So far I'm not impressed. I just took her for a walk and we didn't do very well. She didnt want to walk. Wouldn't walk really. Just stop and smell everything. So we just went home.

Just want to pass on some info here. Is Kira having K-Laser ? as it is wonderful for animals & people. I am having K-laser now myself & it has helped me so much. Also I have been rescuing dogs for many yrs & only take in the Ill & injured & most have been seniors. Kiras spinal problems are common among the older pups, I have had many dogs that were totally parrilyzed from mid spine to the back end & I take them to see a Chiropractor & All have had a Full recovery without surgery, in fact I have seen many dogs at the Chiro who have had spine surgery that failed or left the dog parrilyzed & they are now walking with Chiro treatment. Chiro adjustments even help greatly with arthritis & I highly reccomend it to anyone with an older pet. One thing that most people don't know is that many Chiros that treat humans will do dogs for free & are trained exactly the same as Chiros for animals, in fact they take the same classes at the same time in other words there is only ONE class for all. I have lived many places & am always able to find a human Chiro for my rescues by my local phone book in the Chiro section, I just start at the top & start calling till I find one.;) I hope this info can help someones dog.
Deb & Mae

[Altira]

QUESTION

What is the best type of specailist to see for Degenertive Disk Disease, colasped disks, calcified disks and neck pain? We are seeing a rehab specialist right now. She is recommending prednisone.

Has anyone ever used medicam?

[Squirt's Mom]

An orthopedic doc for skeletal issues is what you would look for.

Metacam is an NSAID. I haven't used it but others here have so I'll let them share with you about that.

Hope Kira had a better day today!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Altira]

Leslie... How are you doing? How is Trink today?

MRI FOR KIRA:

I looked up orthopedic doctors and believe it or not got directed right back to the fasility we are currently going too!

In the mean time Dr Ringwald called and we discussed it further. I want to look into having an MRI done even though I will likely not do surgery. I want to know exactly what it is we are dealing with, is there something else that couldnt be seen in the x-rays, how best to deal with it and what her prognosis is. Just knowing this would be very valuable to me. I can't bare to see my Kira suffering. If prednisone is the best for her at this point.

Anyway, she said this information could prove very usefull in how Kira should be treated. She said There is a couple very good doctors there that could do this (I made an apointment with the one noted below). She said a complete CBC and spinal tap would be included. I had planed on another CBC every six months from now on for Kira. It's only been four but who's counting? An other good thing is Dr Ringwald knows a lot about Kira, defintly the most of any doctor in this area and she said they would communicate with each other. Which would be wonderful. They could also discuss how best to proceed. It's going to cost me a fortune! Shhhh don't tell my husband. (maybe $1800) (the water treadmill wasn't cheep either) But how can you put a price on peace of mind? And do I ever need that most right now. 8:::: Kira's ability to walk seems like her biggest threat. It seems to me that's going to take her down long before anything else. I really need to know everything possible. I know it's very uncoman to do an MRI and not do surgery. Some may find it a waste of money. Mira had many US's done in the last 22 days of her life. I knew exactly where we stood the whole way. I knew when it was time to let go. She could have fallen dead in our back yard had I not known. I put great value on knowing where we stand and feel incredibly lucky that I can do this.

Anyway... This is the specialist we will be seeing this coming Wednesday. Any comments on any of this is most welcome as always. I value those too and have gathered up many to ask about and consider. Love you angels you know....


Wayne Berry, BvSC, MMedVet
Diplomate American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (Neurology)
BvSC, MMedVet: University of Pretoria, S. Africa, 1983
Internship: University of Pretoria, S. Africa, 1983 – 85
Residency (Internal Med): University of Pretoria, S. Africa, 1985 – 87
Residency (Neurology & Neurosurgery): University of California, Davis, 1996 – 99

Having taught at three universities and practiced on three continents, Dr. Berry joined SCVSH in 2000. Dr. Berry is specialized in neurosurgery and medical neurology, exclusively focused on conditions of the brain, spine, and peripheral nervous system. His expertise includes the imaging (MRI and digital fluoroscopic myelography) and surgical correction of congenital disorders, spinal cord compression due to disc rupture, wobbler syndrome, spinal tumors, and spinal fractures, in addition to brain and skull tumors, skull fractures, and brain trauma. Seizures and their management is a forte.

Dr. Berry has numerous scientific publications to his credit and collaborates with researches at UCDavis. He is a frequent local and international lecturer. Dr. Berry resides in Newport Beach with his wife, two sons at college, a bossy dachshund, and a large orange cat.

[addy]

Dr Berry sounds impressive Janis. I hope you can find help for Kira.

hugs and love,
addy

[jmac]

Sorry it took me a while to see this. I've been so busy. I might need to go back and read more to get caught up. Did something else happen to Kira, or is this her regular issue with a flare-up?

They think Hannah could have degenerative disc disease or some sort of calcification. I was told to rest her (no walks for the first week or two) a lot and we used Metacam for 5 days. I was worried because of the NSAID, but my IM and regular vet said that it does not cause any problem (something about the natural steroid, the cortisol, not being like if you were using pred with it). She did really well and it helped her a lot. She doesn't have very bad Cushing's symptoms so I felt okay. We just did it for a few days to ease the pain.

The vets here said pred is not used a lot anymore for disc issues. She also had acupuncture, which helped greatly, but it took a couple of treatments and weeks to see improvement. Then I tried the laser. I know you can use them in conjunction with one another.

Also, my parents' collie has seen a chiropractor vet twice. I guess they are highly successful. I would recommend you try a vet who does acupuncture or chiropractic and see what they say. The vet I see who does the laser treatment is also into rehab, but even she said I should really rest Hannah after the initial pain. She took weeks to improve, but she did. A lot.

Good luck to you!

Julie & Hannah

[Altira]

Kira's condition since her adreanalectomy has been so confusing and complicated I hardly know where to begin. I'm not sure if the issue is coming or going or if the meds some times work and then just stop. I dont understand why she doesn't gain muscle mass in her rear legs. Alli know is since about April 5 th she is holding her neck real low. We had done three secssons of what the reg vet siad was a form of actupuncture. Which seemed to not help at all. So we tried a lazer treatment a few days ago and she seems even worse. I have acupuncture, chiropractor, massage, Chiro, metacam, previcox all on my list of things to try. I currently have gabapenton, tramadol, methocarbamol, and etogesic which I can give. It's been a long time since I tried the Etogesic. I tried one today. Hour later Kira's head lifted up, her tail wagged and she did ok on a mile long walk. She could not do the treadmill however. She couldn't keep her balance.

They have never told me to rest her to confine her and let her heal. They all seem tickled when I tell them Kira walked three miles no sweat dragging me along. A few days ago was the first time I heard the word degenerative. I wrote Dr Sebestyen today.. The guy who did all of Kira's surgeries. Bless his heart he wrote me back at 9 pm at night. He's telling me the same thing Dr Ringwald is. It won't get better without surgery. Now we'll go see the expert on this and see what he says. See what the MRI tells us. There could be other things in there too.

I want to try all the things the angels tell me worked for them. I just hope I have time to try them. Because the more I see her suffer the closer I get to giving her the prednisone. Hearing her yelp and walk around all painful looking is more then I can take.

Then there is the battle with baby Neeka and her frequent hyper spurts. 75% of the time Neeka is perfectly calm or busy chewing a bone, the rest of the time she a wild women. She can't help it. She wants to play, she attracts Kira. Once in a great while Kira can just lay there and bat at her. But more often she is hurting Kira and I come running. Good luck catching Neeka. I have a fenced in safe zone for Kira right in the front room. Sometimes Kira goes in there, sometimes Neeka goes in there. Lots of times Neeka gets leashed to the table! And then Kira goes and lays down right next to her! Go figure that one! I know that Neeka is only making things worse when she gets these dog crazies.

[LillyMae]

Hi Janis, The MRI is the best to see anything going on in the spine & if you do MRI ask for a copy of the disc so you can take it to any other Doctor you see with Kira. Also an x-ray can show some things for the spine just not enough. When LillyMae came to me a bit over 3 yrs ago, she could not move at all without screaming in pain but after her first Chiropractor visit she was chasing squirrels in my backyard the very next day & jumping on & off the furniture like a crazy dog. LillyMae had a disc out in her neck & several out in her back so it's no wonder she was screaming every time she moved. I have taken every rescue that walks in my door to the Chiro within a day or 2 of their arrival & most all of them needed to be adjusted as most of the dogs I take in are seniors & back end weakness is the #1 sigh that there is a spinal problem & the #2 sign is a slight to severe hunch in the middle of the back. Also Ester-C is wonderful for spinal, joint & arthritis issues in dogs, but it has to be Ester-C as regular Vit C is too acidic for their tummy.
Deb & Mae

[Altira]

Don't know if anyone is interested in these but I have written a per visit letter to the neurotical doctor I'm taking Kira to see this Wednesday. There are remarks about Cusings in this.

4/15/2012
*
Pets Name: Kira – Beghtol
Breed: Siberian Husky
Born: 3/27/2000
Owner: Janis Beghtol
*
REGARDING APPOINTMENT: *DR. BERRY - WED APRIL 18, AT 11:30 AM
*
Hello Dr. Berry,
*
(I am one of those owners who gets very involved in the medical treat of my dogs. You will likely hear more from me then you could ever want.)
*
We have been working with Dr Ringwald since early 2011.* I’m hoping you will have a chance to speak with her before our visit. She knows a lot about Kira, and knows why we are coming to see you. She has x-rays and important past medical records.
*
My Kira has been thru three major surgeries in the last 4 years. TTA knee surgery (in 2008) and again (in May 2010) and an Adrenalectomy (in Dec 2010) to cure Cushing’s. The tumor was very small, it had not evaded anything and was benign. All these surgeries were performed by Peter Sebestyen at VSS.
*
It was when Kira started taking Trilostine briefly for Cushing’s that this rear end lameness first appeared. It was believed that cortisol had been masking the problem. This is what Dr. Chung at ACC told me.
*
I promised myself no more major surgeries for Kira. She’s been through enough. And I don’t want her to die looking and feeling like she’s been ripped apart yet again. I am not seeking you out for surgery, although… I would like to know about it too.
*
I would like to ask you about doing an MRI. I want to know exactly what the problems are, and if there is anything else there we don’t know about. What might help with the pain and the all-important prognosis. Is she going to loose the ability to walk? What I’m looking for is a detailed summary and I want to know where this is leading to. I will have many other questions along the way I’m sure.
*
Since November 2010, Kira has had seven blood tests, two ultrasounds and a boatload of urine and cortisol tests. Dr. Ringwald has copies of all the tests done 4 months ago. With the exception of her back and neck and muscle weakness, all else is darn good for a dog her age. A whole lot better then before curing Cushing’s.
*
Dr. Ringwald also seems concerned about why Kira is not gaining any muscle mass despite all our efforts. As am I.
*
I read somewhere (which I cannot find now) where it said sometimes dogs with adrenal Cushing’s are better off not having surgery because what is left behind can be just as devastating. I cannot help feeling that this is the case with Kira.
*
This isn’t the same article I read, but it had a similar reference:
“Alternatively, some dogs become very uncomfortable if arthritis, allergies, or other inflammatory conditions are unmasked once the excess cortisol is removed, paradoxically reducing the animal's quality of life.“
*
Hopefully Dr. Ringwald will tell you about the problem with our young husky puppy (Neeka) and Kira. It is a big concern for me too.
*
DIAGNOSIS RECORDS
MARCH 2011 TO APRIL 2012
(orthopedic)
3-7-11 Dr. Ringwald
Endocrine neuropathy/myopathy, lumbar myelopathy, right biceps tenosynovitis, other
12-9-11 Dr. Roman Savicky (VCA All-Care)
Moderate gant stiffness. Left hind limb splayed out. Lumbar pain, lumosacral disease, right hip arthritis.
12/27/11 Dr. Ringwald
Persistent neuropathy/myopathy following resolution of endocrine disease, lumbar myelopathy, geriatric muscle weakness, other.
2/15/12 Dr Wiatt (regular vet)
After taking x-rays… one collapsed disk mid back, many bad disks in the lower back and in the neck. Calcified disks. Neck pain.
4/11/12 Dr. Ringwald
(After seeing the x-rays) Degenerative disk disease and calcified disks. Neck pain.
*
My Kira is a total sweetheart!
*
I look forward to seeing you soon.
*
*
Respectfully,
*
*

[Altira]

KIRA ORTHOPEDIC UPDATE:

We saw Dr. Berry today. At the moment, I don’t think I will do the MRI. Because of the cost, (way more then I mentioned above) and I don’t think it’s going to tell me much. He did say that a chiropractor can’t help Kira and there has yet to be any proof that laser works, rehab won’t help either. Not with her back. However, he did say that acupuncture could help with pain and medication. He said to use the gabapenton and lots of it. He said 100 to 200 mgs up to three times a day! Yikes! And keep giving her the Etogesic. When I asked about the prednisone his only concern was the drinking too much water and harming bladder control. He did say that her lower back could be fixed and recovery would be about three weeks. It would not help her rear end weakness but it would stop her back pain. In the end, he said this was not an emergency issue. I assume that means it’s not that bad. And at the moment…. I’m going with that.

Probably Kira could survive the surgery and if I was to do it, now would be the time to do it and not later. Regardless of where this is leading to, I just can’t bring myself to put her thru it. This is different then with her knees and Cushing’s. Could be that I may really regret not doing it should she get that bad and it’s too late. Should it get as bad as I’m thinking it will, I’m sure I will. Anyway, I guess acupuncture will be our next adventure.

And I want to give a special thanks to my husband.... for running off with Neeka while we were gone and scaring me when I came home and couldn’t find her! Sweet of him to walk her but husband’s who do unexpected things should leave notes!

[Cyn719]

Husbands:D:D

lots of gab?? Penny cant get past one a day without walking into walls - its good but boy she cant take it - let me know how it goes with the treatment - I know its so hard to put them thru such a big operation at this age - I was scared to have her tooth out :eek: I get where you are coming from

I think I know this answer but did you say or maybe someone else that tramadol makes the dogs groan and seem restless - After Penny takes her tam she groans alot - dont think its pain maybe the effects of the drug??

Give the babies a kiss and belly rub for me:)

hugs xoxoxo

[LillyMae]

I am not at all surprised that the Dr said a Chiropractor can't help as I have never had a Dr agree with Chiropractic but you should see the look on their faces when you take your dog to the Chiro & go show the Dr just how much it helped. I heard those stories when I took every one of the dogs I rescued that were totally parilyzed to see the Dr's & surgeons & even after a Chiro fixed each & every one of them , some Dr's & surgeons still only wanted to talk negatively about Chiropractic. Well here's my thought as it has always been, It may not help but what can it hurt ? Nothing ! I am curently having K-Laser treatments & my Dr's & my Physical Therapist would disagree with what this Dr has told you about K-Laser as it has made a huge dif in my mobility in just 3 wks=6 treatments & I could feel a huge dif in my pain level after the 1st & 2nd treatment.

[Altira]

Cindy, I don't like tramadol much so I don't use it often. I think maybe when she had Cushings it made her incontenent. Kira groans all the time. Huskies are talkers and Kira's talking included groans. Even a good stretch brings on a groan. I never thought of a groan as being bad.If she has any reaction to meds it might be panting and whinning. She can do that for hours on end. Oh well... Ringwald did say to give her tram if she is restless and it did seem to relax her the other night. I gave her one and a half. She laid quietly after that but did not sleep. I could still get her up to do things. You got to remember Penny has a tumor in her liver. As of four months ago Kira has no signs of organ issues. My biggest fear is she will not be able to walk long before the rest of her body gives out. Hummm pred might even that out.

[Altira]

Lillymae.... I think about Kira's condition. The spaces between the bones are all messed up. The stuff that is suposed to be there is gone, all pushed out and bones are starting to pinch nerves. The doctors touch her lower back and she screams. As for myself I cannot give one of my dogs a bath with out so much pain I have to stop. I go lay down and twist and my back cracks. Then I go back to washing the dog. The pain is gone. So I know that cracking you back can really help. But my back is other wise intact. I don't have bad disks. The thought of someone cracking Kira's back in the determinate state it's in is frightening. Extreme pain if not paralyzingly her. When someone has a back injury, they always say DON'T MOVE THEM. So ok yes it would be great in certain cases. He said it would not work in Kira's case. And I'm thinking the same thing. But aren't you glad I remembered to ask? LOL. but you are more then welcome to keep after me about it. I will certainly ask about it again to someone else. Maybe one of them might say ok. Or maybe I might go ask the chiro myself. Acupuncture seems like a better idea beings it deals with easing nerves without using force. I tried the lazer and that other syring looking thing and it did not help. If anything she was worse. Oh yes and I did promise to try message.

I wish they could talk. It's so hard to tell if anything helps for sure. The problem seems to come and go all the time. You think you found something that helps and suddenly it stops working. Why would something stop working?

[Altira]

KIRA IS REALLY HURTING NOW..

When these people exam Kira they do things to see if she cries. She does a lot! She has had two exams about seven days apart. I took her for her normal walk tonight. It started out fine. After a block she was walking out front then falling back. That's a very bad sign. By the time we were four blocks she is walking beside me. A really bad sign. I turned to go farther from home and she just stopped. Right in the middle of the street, just stopped. So we turned back for home. We walked at a snails pace going home. Yesterday She was walking out front at least two miles going as fast as I could walk. I'm worried that all these examinations hurt her enough to set her back. At least this last one did for sure. So I might mention that possibly exams vets do just might not be so good for the condition. I'm not a happy camper.

[addy]

Janis I am so sorry to hear of Kira's on going pain. I don't blame you for not wanting to put her throught the surgery.

Maybe you will be able to find something that will give her relief.

Sending hugs and prayers and love,
addy

[Altira]

NOT LIKE KIRA AT ALL

Thank you Addy. Not only that but when I took her with me to the check out counter she growled and snapped at a dog who tried to sniff her. Kira has never done that before. Superized the heck out of me! When we checked in she was having a great old time greeting all the other dogs. Which included this exact same dog!! All I can think is maybe she's getting real sick of being poked in all these places that hurt so much. Possible she hurt and didnt want to be touched.

She will do this to Neeka once in a great while (we wish she would more often actually) but we know darn well that anytime Neeka comes near Kira Neeka will attack her. Kira's warning is sure well warranted then. She has never done this to a strange dog ever. I read somewhere about a dogs personality changing. I forget the reason. But it is worrisome. My Kira has always been such a sweet heart. Has never ever put her teeth on me or snapped at me ever!

You know I haven't seen her actually sleeping much at all lately. She's always barking and running in her sleep. So it's very noticeable. Except for about five days ago. She was just in the next room. I could see her. Suddenly she let out this long......mournful yawl. It sounded just like the sound I would make (will make) when I loose her. It totally broke my heart. It sounded like she was yelling back to me. I went and woke her up and hugged her. Who knows what she was dreaming.

Kira never barks when she's awake. But she sure does in her sleep. We always laugh at her. This muffled closed mouth barking. Silly girl. I love her so much.

[LillyMae]

Janis, I do understand what you are saying & I also understand your fears. I have a bulging disc with a tear in it myself & if it were not for my Chiro, I would literally be in a wheel chair but he is what keeps me comfortable & able to walk at all. Kiras condition is what happens to most senior dogs eventually & as I said before , it is mostly senior dogs that I rescue & every one has had the same problems that Kira suffers from & I have had x-rays & MRI on several & always the same diagnosis. They ALWAYS say that surgery is needed but most often their liver & kidneys would not handle anaesthesia which is why I started taking them to see a Chiro as I could not stand for one more minute to see them suffer & Always they could barley walk or could not walk in the door & came out bouncing off the walls. I BEG you to call the Chiro that I gave you the # for & at least ask him his thoughts. Also he will not be twisting & turning Kira, he uses the activator or another similar tool to move the disc off of the nerve & it is amazing the dif in the dogs whole attitude.