Mira, 7yr old Husky - Cushings ruled out; liver cancer (Mira has passed) [Archive] - Canine Cushing's Information and Support Forums

Altira

11-03-2010, 08:55 AM

My Mira... There is defintally something very wrong but she has almost none of the normal Cushings symptoms yet the vet says itcould be. She recommended I read up on it. I don't think she would say that unless she was very certain. All we are going on right now is the first blood test results. I would love your opinion! I will just note the Highs and lows.

ALK - 1282 (10-150) high
ALT- 110 (5-107) high
AST - 98 (5-55) high
CK- 469 (10-200) high

AMYLASE - 444 (450-1240) low

TV02 - 16 (17-24) low
CHLORIDE - 119 (105/115) high
POTASSIUM - 5.8 (4.0-5.6) high

NA/K RATIO - 26 (27-40) low

ABS NEUTROPHIL - 12551 (3000-11500) high

T4 was done too and came out normal. We are waiting on the urine test. Please tell me what you think so far. Thevet circled the first four in the list. I took Mira in thinking she has allergies and it was nobig deal but I wanted a blood test done just to check. She is coughingand gagging, panting some, has lost fur around her eyes andmouth, sleeping a lot, looks sleepy all the time, has constant discharge fromher eyes, is limping badly, can't really do walks. We had been walking every day up until a week ago. She suddenly wonteat dry food and she is begining to reject thecanned too now. She drinks the normal amount of water which is slightly more than she was. I think she has lost weight. I was brushing her tonight she go up and went to her pillow and peed on it. She is housebroken!! She is acting so strange. And I'm prone to panic. I don't want to loose her so soon.

labblab

11-03-2010, 09:57 AM

Hello! I am so glad you've found us, although I am very sorry about the problems that Mira is having. From what you have posted so far, it does sound as though Mira exhibits some of the lab abnormalities and symptoms of Cushing's. However, other pieces do not fit very well into the "Cushing's puzzle." The first four lab values that your vet circled do correspond with Cushing's -- elevated liver enzymes and evidence of muscle wasting are consistent with abnormally high levels of circulating cortisol.

However, Mira exhibits other symtoms that I think may be consistent with Addison's Disease, which is the opposite problem from Cushing's (cortisol/aldosterone levels are too low instead of cortisol being too high). Read this description of the symptoms of Addison's (http://www.suite101.com/content/addisons-disease-in-dog-a27528):

Symptoms of Addison's disease are very similar to other diseases and they seem rather vague. Symptoms may include but are not limited too; middle age female dogs, usually over 7 years of age, depression, lethargy, weakness, not eating, weight loss, vomiting and diarrhea, drinking more, urinating more, dehydration, and a fast heart rate in some patients. Many times these symptoms may go unnoticed or correctly diagnosed and the patient finally presents in a Addisonian crisis. During an Addisonian crisis the patient may present in acute collapse and in shock. This is very serious, deadly, and scary to watch. Blood work will show low sodium level, high potassium level [the resulting Na:K ratio will be low], and high kidney enzymes...

You can also read more about Addison's here:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2097&aid=520

Many of these symptoms do sound like your description of Mira. However, apparently her kidney values still fall within the normal range? (BUN, CR or "creatinine"). Anyway, regardless of how her urine test turns out, I am thinking that an ACTH blood test may be the next best test for Mira because it can help diagnose either Cushing's or Addison's. Also, as you will see from reading more about Addison's, it is a treatable disease but can definitely turn life-threatening very quickly if it is not properly diagnosed and treated. If Mira seriously worsens in any way, I'd encourage you to take her back in to the vet immediately for emergency assessment.

Marianne

Altira

11-03-2010, 10:13 AM

Gosh I hope I'm doing this right! I can't thank you enough for your imput and for taking the time to read my post so carefully. As I mentioned i am prone to panic. What might be something that would constitute an emergency? Probably not peeing in her pillow but I got to tell you that's all it took to get me here.

labblab

11-03-2010, 10:26 AM

Yes, you are replying exactly right! :)

If Mira starts vomiting or suffering from diarrhea, or becomes even more lethargic or unresponsive -- I would call your vet and/oir take her right on in.

As I said above, the elevated liver values do correspond with Cushing's. Panting, muscle weakness and fur loss are also Cushing's symptoms. And sometimes Cushpups can appear to lose weight due to muscle wasting, even though their actual weight has increased.

But your description of Mira's behavior sounds "off" to me in other ways. The lack of appetite (as opposed to ravenous Cushing's appetite), the rather sudden onset of her lethargy and weakness (could walk up until a week ago), the gagging -- she sounds like something is more acutely wrong, whereas the progression of Cushing's symptoms tends to follow a slower chronic course. That is what is making me wonder what else might be causing her symptoms. When do you think your vet will have the results of the urine test?

Marianne

Altira

11-03-2010, 10:43 AM

That's what I'm thinking, this testing is taking far too long... and yes this did happen suddenly. My dogs and i were running the streets two weeks ago with Mira right out front. Well really she's been acting strange for about a month. Oh I forgot to mention she has incontance (sp?) too.

The urine test results Might come in today the vet said. I'm very worried. What should I do?

Altira

11-03-2010, 10:50 AM

Ok I'm panicing. I should mention other then the peeing in the pillow thing she had a pretty good night. Only coughed twice and she ate all her canned food last time pretty well and she's be a tad more active. Limping is very bad, seems to be just the front left leg. You can just look at her and tell something is wrong though. My husband thought she looked out of it sort of.

labblab

11-03-2010, 11:04 AM

How long ago did your vet actually see Mira? Is he/she aware of these new issues with the picky appetite, lethargy and inappropriate urination? If not, I'd telephone the office to let your vet know what is going on. That way, your vet can help determine whether or not Mira needs to be seen again, regardless of whether or not the urine test results are back yet.

Marianne

Altira

11-03-2010, 11:22 AM

Yes she knows about all the things I've mentioned. The blood was taken on the 28th of October. She called the next day and said we needed to rule out cushings. I think that's what your saying too. It didn't seem urgent to her. I talked to her again on Monday and told her of the new symptoms. The limping.

Altira

11-03-2010, 11:35 AM

I just talked to the vet. We are going to the next step tomorrow. I'm really upset. She's thinking it might be something else too more serious. She said we wont get the result from this test until next Monday. If it's cushings she said with need to deside to treat or not. She'll die if we don't right?

labblab

11-03-2010, 12:02 PM

Did your vet already have the results of the urine test, and is that why you are heading on to the next step?

Is your vet planning an ACTH test? This is a test that involves two separate blood samples drawn 1-2 hours apart. As I said earlier, this test can be used to diagnose both Cushing's and Addison's. Although if Mira's urine test (UC:CR) was abnormally high, that would already be consistent with a diagnosis of Cushing's rather than Addison's.

Actually, treatment for Addison's dogs is much more urgent than treatment for Cushing's. Cushing's is typically a slowly-progressing disease that is not urgently life-threatening. So you can take your time to learn more about the disease and the treatment options. However, if Mira seems to have something else going on, I'm assuming your vet will plan to proceed with some other diagnostics.

It will help us all a whole lot if you'll ask your vet for copies of any test results. That way, we'll be better prepared to help with suggestions and feedback. And one word of caution: an ACTH test can end up with a "false positive" result if a dog is suffering from an illness other than Cushing's at the time that the test is performed. So you may want to ask your vet about that issue tomorrow if the ACTH is indeed the test that she has in mind.

Here's a link to the index of our "Important Information" forum that has a ton of helpful resources about diagnostics and testing. I know it can look very overwhelming at first, but as you start to read through different articles, you'll be amazed at how quickly you'll starting picking up information.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10

Marianne

SasAndYunah

11-03-2010, 12:19 PM

Hi,

welcome from me as well :)

I don't want to confuse you but the symptoms you are describing would all fit Leishmaniosis. I'm not sure where you are located and if Leishmaniosis is pressent in your area but I sure would mention it to your vet.

Here's a case file with symptoms that the dog was presented with:
Client history

* Progressive weight loss despite normal appetite.
* Exercise intolerance/lethargy.
* Non-pruritic dermatitis that is unresponsive to conventional treatment.
* Stiffness/lameness.
* Chronic inflammatory eye disease including conjunctivitis .
* Polydipsia/polyuria.
* Vomiting .
* Diarrhea .
* Decreased appetite.
* Abdominal distension.

Here's a list of the symptomes:
Clinical signs

* Splenomegaly.
* Mild-moderate lymphadenopathy.
* Anemia .
* Exfoliative dermatitis, periocular alopecia and scaling.
* Ulcerative nodular dermatitis especially involving the nose, lips, eyelids, tips of the ears, tail and feet.
* Onychogryposis.
* Muscular atrophy.
* Ocular lesions:
o Keratitis.
o Uveitis.
o Chorioretinitis.
o Corneal edema.
o Glaucoma.
* Epistaxis.
* Polyarthritis - intermittent lameness.
* Pneumonia.
* Neurological abnormalities.

Here's a link about Leishmaniosis:
http://www.leishmaniasis.info/

You can see why the hairloss around the eyes and mouth, the constant discharge from her eyes, the lameness, lethargy, decreased appetite and even peeing would all fit?

So I would make sure you mention the possibility to your vet.

Best of luck,

Saskia and Yunah :)

Altira

11-03-2010, 01:19 PM

Sorry I'm having trouble reading. We live in Orange Ca near Disneyland. In the city but I'll look into what your suggesting. Yes I believe the test your talking about is the one planned. Two differant tests done with something done in-between. To compare the differences. I will get copies of the urine test when I take her in tomorrow. I would behappy to pass that on to you. Maybe give me an email address and I'll send you scanned copies of the whole thing.

Squirt's Mom

11-03-2010, 01:36 PM

Hi and welcome to you and Mira! :)

Bless your heart! Man, can I relate to your fear! When my Squirt was first diagnosed, I was an absolute basket case. :eek: She is the light of my world and I cannot bear the thought of losing her. When her vet said "Cushing's", I could tell by the look on her face this wasn't the best of news and I broke down into tears right there in the exam room. For the next few months, I was overcome with grief, anger, fear, guilt, frustration, and confusion. My poor old mind just couldn't grasp anything except that my baby was sick! :(:eek::(

Nothing I read, nothing anyone said made any sense to me at all...it was all Greek! Even when they told me it would get better all I could think was, "Are you freakin' NUTS?!?! My baby is SICK with an incurable disease!!!! omg omg omg omg omg......" A dear friend here later described me as a woman who had stuck her finger in a light socket - hair standing on end! She kindly left out the lunatic rantings, the flying slobber and bulging eyes! :p Now, nearly 3 yrs later, I almost have the slobbering under control. :D

I know exactly how you feel, honey; many of us do. And, you are right where you are supposed to be; your reaction is completely normal. How else would a loving mother react to news that her baby may be facing some serious health issues? You're a good mom, as evidenced by your obvious love for Mira and your willingness to seek out help on her behalf. So, see? You are already ahead of the game and have a great foundation to build on! :)

Two things -
1) during this panic phase, try to take a few minutes to breath from time to time; just a few deep breaths, holding and slowly releasing - then you can resume "omg omg omg omg..." ;)

2) start your education. This is the most important thing you can do for Mira regardless of what the final diagnosis turns out to be. You are her first and last defense, her only voice, her advocate, and the more you know the stronger you will be in these roles. Get copies of all her test results and question the vet about anything you don't understand. Take notes during her exams, or take a tape recorder, or a friend so you can remember what was said. Start reading up on Cushing's here; our Helpful Resource section is full of good info. Go online and read about Addison's, which is, in very simple terms, the opposite of Cushing's. Then ask questions, lots of them. We will do our best to help you understand. Education is key and we are all here to learn and share. ;)

Last, but in no way least, know that you and Mira are not alone. We are here to help in any way we can. The collective experience found here is astounding and we are more than happy to share. When it comes to support...well, you couldn't have found a better place for good old-fashioned hand-holding. In fact, we have our own little looney bin here; all you gotta do is holler and I'll scoot over! :p;)

You're doing a good job, Mom! Keep your chin up!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls :D - always

EDITED TO ADD LINKS:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=180

http://www.lbah.com/canine/cushings.htm

http://www.kateconnick.com/library/cushingsdisease.html

http://www.newmanveterinary.com/CushingDiag.html

ADDISON’S INFO:
http://www.addisondogs.com/

http://www.k9addisons.com/

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/addison_s_disease.html

http://www.vetinfo.com/canine-addisons-disease-symptoms.html

http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/Medicine/CVC-2008-Highlights-Managing-atypical-and-critical/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/569664

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Medicine/Testing-for-Addisons-disease/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/574393

lulusmom

11-03-2010, 02:10 PM

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I see that Marianne has given you some excellent information so I will try not to repeat her as I post my comments/observation. With respect to the hair loss around the eyes and mouth, this is not the normal pattern with cushing's. Dogs with cushing's will lose a lot of hair on their flanks, tail and torso, usually sparing all of the hair on the face and legs. A more likely cause for hair loss around the eyes and mouth, especially in a husky, is a condition called zinc responsive dermatosis. Huskies (Samoyed, Malamutes, American Eskimos and Siberians) are the only breeds that are predisposed to this condition. This is caused by low zinc levels, which can be caused by severe stress or the stress from any number of underlying illnesses. I came upon this information recently when doing research for my Pomeranian who was losing hair around her nose.

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Medicine/Canine-zinc-responsive-dermatosis/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/162405

Another more apt condition that causes hair loss around the eyes and nose is Demodicosis (demodex mange). This is a common problem in puppies and if it occurs in an adult dog, there is an underlying problem that is compromising the immune system. Cushing's is always a likely suspect.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.marvistavet.com/assets/images/Blacki_Larabaldivia_localized_demodex.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.marvistavet.com/html/demodectic_mange.html&h=300&w=271&sz=50&tbnid=_Rc9ojY7ULGnPM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=105&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddemodex%2Bmange&zoom=1&q=demodex+mange&usg=__K-tWQyKenQ_vZ--LvsSfFl_hDE8=&sa=X&ei=i5XRTK7bEtGenwfdgsi7DA&ved=0CCAQ9QEwAg

I tend to agree with Marianne that symptoms and some of the laboratory abnormalities sound more like Addison's disease than cushing's. Coughing and gagging is not a common symptom associated with cushing's but it is in Addison's as some dogs present with secondary acquired megaesophagus (esophagus contractions). This condition shares a lot of the same blood abnormalities seen with endocrine disorders, including elevated liver enzymes.

I think Mira has a lot going on and given her symptoms and lab abnormalities, I personally think an internal medicine specialist is a lot better equipped to diagnose and treat Mira than a general practitioner. That is not to say that your gp vets isn't great but when you are dealing with autoimmune issues and endocrine disorders, you definitely want the extensive education,training and experience of an internal medicine specialist.

If you are unaware of any specialists in your area, you can try to locate one near you on the acvim website (see link below). If you let us know what city and state you are in or near, members might be able to provide you with a name. Many members' dogs, including my two cushdogs, are treating exclusively with internal medicine specialists.

http://www.acvim.org/websites/acvim/index.php?p=3

Glynda

lulusmom

11-03-2010, 02:20 PM

Altira

11-03-2010, 10:26 PM

Squirt - thank you yes that discribes me pretty well too. Sitting here not knowing terrified that at any moment she may fall dead and feeling my reaction to it. Will she start having seisures? What if she started screaming in pain, I'd start screaming too. Im so on edge. The sound of a hurt dog just kills me. I hate the places who send pictures of starving and hurt dogs. I don't donate to them because i can't bare to see the pictures. But I do donate a lot to the protection of animals. Mainly dogs. I'm very shy and rather a hermit but I'll talk to a dog passing by so easily.

We have had dogs since 1978. All pure breed Siberian Huskies. Five of them. We have have Kira and Mira right now. Kira is 10 she just had TTA surgery on both knees. In 2008 and six months ago. My Kira walks, no more limping! Cost us $6,000. Mira just got over seperation anxiety a year ago. She had broken out of windows twice I couldn't leave her alone in the house. But now she does it just fine and now we are loosing her.

When Mira first started acting funny I started searching the symptoms. I ran into Cushing's and read quite a bit then. But I didn't think it was that bad I thought more like allergies. When the vet first saw her Cushing's was not on her mind either I don't think. When she said we must rule out Cushing's I went searching everywhere including here! I also did my best to disifer the blood test. I'm not seeing Cushing's there so much. I'm seeing liver damage and more likely Addison's then Cushing's. And the electrolytes imbalance said it could easily be life threatening. Im seeing far worse then Cushings! But what do I know. I study this stuff hour after hour. It's all I do I can do nothing else. But cry. The only slight relief I got was here. Here you say Cushing's can be handled. But Mira? She has more. I desperately wanted someone else to look at the blood test. Here I notice you guys wanting blood test numbers, asking for that repeatly. But nobodys matched Mira's. But I thought you guys would know. So I joined. I was excepted at lighting speed and had an answer within the hour! And someone to talk to. Gosh you guys are wonderful.

What's bothering me now is not knowing. The vet says it might be more serious. I agree but what? Will Mira still be here in two weeks? Two days? How many times am I going to panic? I slept on the edge of the bed with one hand on Mira laying on the floor. She follows me everywhere she is the head of "mommies fan club" and the "welcoming comitie." she makes me feel needed and important.

Today I have started taking notes of everything she does. My memory is not good. I don't read or learn easily. But I do have determination. My dogs are my life. We have no children by choice. I love my husband of 32 years but my dogs are my children I can't live without. They are provided for in my will. Siberain Huskies. I fell in love with them the first time I saw one.

Altira

11-03-2010, 10:47 PM

Lulu - thank you yes I saw the thing about zinc and I bought a big bag of Taste of the Wild Salmon. Which was said to be high in zinc. But Mira won't eat it. She did at first. But not enough tohelp. That condition hasn't gotten any worse or any better. She's been pawing at her face. I have to tell her not to scratch it. But it is bothering her. Thank you for bringing it up I did mention the zinc thing to the vet.

Internal med. Ok that's a good place for second opinion? I have been considering an advanced critical care place but their reviews arent the best. I want the best place possible near me. I don't care about the cost. Well I do but you know what I mean. Does anyone know of a place near Orange Califorina?

Altira

11-03-2010, 10:56 PM

In the time it took me to type my prior post, in between disruptions at work, I see that you live in Anaheim. My dogs treat with VCA All Care Animal Referral Hospital in Fountain Valley. I am 50 miles from there but don't mind driving an hour because I know my dogs are getting the best care. They are also open 24/7 so weekend appointments are easy. Dr. Michael Moore is the Director of Internal Medicine and is an excellent doctor, as is Dr. Alyssa Mourning. My dogs have treated with both.

http://www.acarc.com/

Oh my gosh thank you for that!!! I was answering one post at a time and hadn't seen this yet! Thank you so much for the recommendation it's likely all of fifteen miles from me. And 24 hours too! Stuff always happens after the vet is closed. I never know who to trust.

lulusmom

11-03-2010, 11:12 PM

I just wanted to mention that VCA All Care is an excellent critical care hospital with round the clock care and very liberal visiting hours. In addition to a great internal medicine department, they have an excellent oncology department as well as an excellent orthopedic department. About the only thing they don't have there is eye care.

Glynda

Altira

11-03-2010, 11:52 PM

I just looked into VCA. Ratings are pretty scary. They either get a 1 or a 5 it seems. Seems to be more 1's. You either love them or you hate them. Do you have appointments when you go? Do you have to wait past your appointment time? Have you every left your dog there? I hate leaving them at the vets. Mira by the way has a history of SCREAMING the most god awful sound you every heard. I thought she was dying the first time I heard it. It even scared the vet. She always screamed. The girl at the desk says Mira is betting up the our tech! And I'm certian she was. We get her out of the officeand she's fine. We had an emergency out of town a vet took her in back. Came back and said she won't let me touch her. I know you'll haveto put her out. She isn't biting she's just screaming truly terrified. I swear I don't bet my dog I swear! We changed vets three years ago. She screamed the first time but never again after that. We have two dogs so they always have each other. Mira has to spend the morning at the vets tomorrow. I think I'll ask if Kira can stay with her.

k9diabetes

11-04-2010, 12:48 AM

I think you will find that any vet you search on the internet is that way. Have to figure that the folks who are unhappy or angry are more likely to go on and post a comment than the ones who are satisfied and happy.

I can't vouch for that particular clinic so don't take this as a recommendation - I just know that I have stopped using online resources to judge a vet clinic because they make them all sound bad and I know from some experience that a lot of people may be confused about what happened to their pets too.

I'd take Glynda's recommendation in a heart beat if I was looking for a vet. Wish she could recommend one for me up north!

Natalie

Altira

11-04-2010, 01:28 AM

Altira

11-04-2010, 01:50 AM

Glynda - thanks for the link to the Zinc report. I missed this web page in my search. That's got to be it around her eyes, it looks just like the picture except Mira's is not as bad and is not raw looking. That could be because I don't let her scratch her face just for that reason. She has scratched it raw in the past. She does not have the fur loss that is realted to cushings. I will pass this on to the vet.

The megaesophagus thing I don't understand it too well. Does this have anything to do with when a dog pulls to much when being walked and they cough? I have huskies ... All they do is pull, even with spike collars! I never could get a husky not to pull!

Janis-Altira

Altira

11-04-2010, 05:20 AM

Help! I can see my dogs heart pounding in her chest. She is breath quietly but fast.

labblab

11-04-2010, 06:16 AM

A fast heart rate is one of the symptoms that is listed for Addison's Disease. Definitely ask your vet about the possibility of Addison's when you take Mira in today, OK? You can tell her that in the process of researching Cushing's, you've discovered that Mira also has a lot of the symptoms of Addison's Disease.

Marianne

Altira

11-04-2010, 06:26 AM

Is 98 bpm fast? I'm feeling the heart itself. She doesnt seem stressed. My other husky I can't find a pulse at all anywhere. Thigh or behind front left leg. Bless you for being here!!!

Altira

11-04-2010, 06:40 AM

I am taking a copy of your first two posts with me to the vets in about four hours. She gets to see the regular vet this time. I watch my dogs breathing all the time. It's always slow and gentle when rest. I've never seen the heart pounding in the chest before. It looked shaky. This will be at the top of my list!

labblab

11-04-2010, 06:50 AM

Wanted to let you know that I've sent you a Private Message (PM) with info about sending us scanned copies of Mira's lab results. The fastest way to get to your private mailbox is to click on the link that is right below your username up in the upper right-hand corner of every page. ;)

Marianne

lulusmom

11-04-2010, 08:52 AM

I wasn't quite sure how Addison's (Hypoadrenocorticism) causes Megaesophagus so I looked it up. Here is a little blurb I found as to the cause of acquired Megaesophagus:

The most common endocrine diseases associated with megaesophagus are hypoadrenocorticism and, possibly, hypothyroidism. With hypoadrenocorticism, it is suspected that megaesophagus results from impairment of muscle carbohydrate metabolism due to glucocorticoid insufficiency. In addition, depleted muscle glycogen stores and decreased catecholamine activity may play a role. In one case report, atypical Addison’s disease was diagnosed and subsequent therapy with prednisone resolved the megaesophagus.

Will be waiting for an update after your appointment with the vet.

lulusmom

11-04-2010, 08:58 AM

Altira

11-04-2010, 12:17 PM

Urine Test Results:
Cortisol 25.2
Creatinine 66.2
Cortisol/Creat Ratio 119

It's all greek to me on this one. Vet said it did not rule out cushing's. Love to hear your comments.

Mira is at the vets having the next blood test. Kira is keeping her company. I didn't get to talk to the vet and I may not get to when I pick her up either. I left him a bunch of stuff about what was said here and about that weird heart thing last night.

Janis

Altira

11-04-2010, 10:44 PM

My brother, who has been a medical doctor (internal medicine) for a very long time looked at the two test results. He says it's not Cushing's or Addison's. He says it's an infection of the gallbatter. He wants me to get a liver ultrasound pronto. I will do that first thing tomorrow. If I live through the night! This pounding heart thing she's having scares the he'll out of me. Luckily it doesn't seem to bother her.

AlisonandMia

11-04-2010, 10:56 PM

Only got a minute to post here but you are going to cancel the testing scheduled for tomorrow? Sounds like it was to be the Low Dose Dexamethasone Test (if it was to take all day/8 hours). If Mira is sick already (and it sounds completely consistent with a glugged up and/or infected gallbladder) and especially if she gets stressed out at the vets then it is almost certain that she will test "positive" for Cushing's on that test - even though she almost certainly doesn't have Cushing's.

Although Cushing's typically increases ALP (sometimes ALT is a little elevated too) the elevations in the other enzymes suggest very strongly that something else is going on.

I agree an ultrasound sounds like it is in order. You may find you need to be referred to specialist or university facility for this. Most vets' ultrasound machines are not at all high resolution and for complex diagnoses a high resolution machine is necessary - and the opinion of someone very practiced in reading u/s scans is good to have too.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Alison

Altira

11-04-2010, 11:20 PM

I swear I detect ANGELS floating around this forum in the form of Members and Administrators!

I have already talked to a place near by that says they can do the ultrasound no problem. And they will be happy to use the test results that were just done. Critical Care place with all capabilities you can imagine. Our Kodi had a MRI done there. Our Kira had TTA knee surgery done in the same complex. It's very expensive but that's ok. Thanks ever so much for telling me you agree with my brother!

AlisonandMia

11-05-2010, 02:51 AM

I am glad you have somewhere state-of-the-art to go for the ultrasound.

I think gallbladder problems are a distinct possibility although how that would be connected to lameness I'm not sure, nor the coughing and sneezing and heart pounding you are seeing. (We've seen more than a few gallbladder dogs here and I've never heard of those symptoms.) I'm wondering if she hasn't got some sort of unusual infection - maybe something insect or tick-born as Saskia suggested? If it was my dog I would certainly be wanting to have an u/s done as the next step - those liver numbers mean that the liver, gallbladder and pancreas need to be checked out.

If nothing really conclusive comes up in the u/s (like an inflamed and heavily sludged-up gallbladder) I would think that getting into an IMS vet as Glynda suggested would be a very, very good idea. Probably wouldn't be a bad move even if the gallbladder does turn out to be the problem and the only problem.

It sounds like something fairly complex could be at play here and an IMS is best placed to help - and will almost certainly work out cheaper in the long run.

Alison

PS: The reason that people wondered about Addison's was the low sodium/potassium ratio. I presume Mira isn't on any medications? What sort of food does she eat? Is it possible she could have eaten something something she shouldn't have - like someone's medication?

Altira

11-05-2010, 04:30 AM

"AlisonandMia; I am glad you have somewhere state-of-the-art to go for the ultrasound.
I think gallbladder problems are a distinct possibility although how that would be connected to lameness I'm not sure,"

Well we were running the streets recently she could have pulled something. It's just one leg.

"nor the coughing and sneezing"

She's been coughing and gagging. At the same time. I saw a video of a dog siad to have Kennel Cough. It looks exactly like that. I mentioned that to the vet and she agreed it could be but never went anywhere with it. She (they) are more concerned with the cushings thing.

"and heart pounding you are seeing."

That one has really got me. Even now her pulse is 98 bpm. Our other husky is at 50 bpm. Mira's breathing is twice as fast too. 40 vs 20. My brother said this was happening becasue she is sick. And is likely not good. Good resaon to rush.

"(We've seen more than a few gallbladder dogs here and I've never heard of those symptoms.)"

Maybe they aren't related, that's what the vet is saying about the cough and the limp anyway. I'm also certain she has this Zinc problem too. Thats a lot of stuff to have not related. A lot of stuff to happen all at once. Maybe she lacks the ability to fight stuff off.

I admit none of her symtoms point to gallbladder problems. Jondice (sp?) and whatever the others were I forget. My brother, I don't recall if I sent him my symptoms list. But I don't think he mentioned them. He's just desifering the blood and urine tests. And said this is the best way to go. The liver ultrasound. Everything points more to the liver then anything else and I agree.

"If it was my dog I would certainly be wanting to have an u/s done as the next step - those liver numbers mean that the liver, gallbladder and pancreas need to be checked out."

Yes I will be asking to have eveything possible looked at. Pancreas is mentioned a lot.

"If nothing really conclusive comes up in the u/s (like an inflamed and heavily sludged-up gallbladder) I would think that getting into an IMS vet as Glynda suggested would be a very, very good idea. Probably wouldn't be a bad move even if the gallbladder does turn out to be the problem and the only problem.
It sounds like something fairly complex could be at play here and an IMS is best placed to help - and will almost certainly work out cheaper in the long run.
Alison
PS: The reason that people wondered about Addison's was the low sodium/potassium ratio. I presume Mira isn't on any medications?"

She was taking Predisone which we know can trigger cushings but it's been over a year and she only took it for a week or two for itchy skin. I gave her Dasuquin very recently cus Kira was taking it. For maybe two weeks. But I stopped. Too expensive. It's my understanding that is harmless.

"What sort of food does she eat?"

Science Diet Light canned and dry mixed with lots of water cus she had anal sac problems from not drinking enough water.

"Is it possible she could have eaten something something she shouldn't have - "

That IS very possible. Mira eats odd things. She loves kleenex and paper towels. And manages to get into the trash for it often. In my sewing room she loves to eat tiny scrapes of fabric that falls on the floor. I told the vet about that too. The coughing I have wondered if something is stuck in her throat. But I thought the vet would deduce that. Obstruction I wouldn't rule that out.

"like someone's medication?

Now that one is really frightening becase I was throwing out old doggie medicain about a month ago and she did get into the trash at that time. The meds where at least twenty years old. But I would think the reaction would have been dire right away. Don't you think? I have no idea what they were. I could go through old records I guess.

"I'm wondering if she hasn't got some sort of unusual infection - maybe something insect or tick-born as Saskia suggested?"

Got this from the link:"A few years ago, canine leishmaniasis was discovered in hunting packs of fox hounds in many States in the USA (but none west of Kansas)."

We are in Southern California, we just don't have that many odd insects around here. When we go on outings it's to the desert. We have been to the colorado river which was said to have some sort of weird organizim in the river water. We were there 6 weeks ago. I think if she had that she would be dead though. But I'll keep that in mind. It killed a human child who had been swiming underwater.

Heart Worms keep crossing my path. If it was that wouldn't it stand out?

Janis

Altira

11-05-2010, 04:45 AM

Mira is flooped over on her back. Sleeping. Belly up at the moment. Always nice to see that!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTowgsSUCww

AlisonandMia

11-05-2010, 05:05 AM

Heartworm could be a possibility - I gather it can affect the liver. A quick, simple in-house blood test can diagnose.

Apparently since Katrina, which resulted in many dogs being relocated throughout the US from heart-worm infested New Orleans, heartworm has been popping up in places where it was previously unknown.:(

I'd get that possibility checked out ASAP!

Alison

Altira

11-05-2010, 11:31 AM

I'm going now. I have a whole page of notes.

Altira

11-05-2010, 02:12 PM

Mira has liver cancer. Big masses.

Squirt's Mom

11-05-2010, 03:10 PM

Hi Janis,

Did the vet give you any prognosis, any plan of treatment?

Please know that we are here with you, and for you, and Mira.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Altira

11-05-2010, 03:55 PM

A mass the size of a football... How long could she have? They are doing biopsy to see what kind it is. Maybe it will respond to chemo? I would do it. But likely it's too advanced.

I know when it started. It was right after she was bleeding from her butt. Bud was at the river and Mira had an emergency. The vet said she had impacted anal glanes. He said she wasn't drinking enough water and I should always add water to her food. Bulk her up, he said. So when her chest started to increase I thought that's what I was doing. I thought it's working. That was just after September 9, 2008. Even when Bud mentioned her expanding chest I said, it's ok we want that to happen. Bulk her up. It was fate.

I'm in the parking lot waiting until six pm. I'm not leaving without her. I'm going to spoil her. All the cookies she wants. Pretty pretty Mira.

Squirt's Mom

11-05-2010, 04:50 PM

Well, you can't see me but I am sitting right there with you, waiting, hoping, praying.

Mira is so lucky to have you, Janis.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

labblab

11-05-2010, 05:48 PM

Janis, I'm so sorry to read this news! I'll also be anxiously awaiting more information.

Marianne

Altira

11-05-2010, 07:10 PM

They found more in her chest. Something more. I'm waiting right here in the parking lot. They want to make sure her liver doesn't bleed before she can go home. Two more hours. Im hoping they will let me sit with her soon. Mira is in there crying. I heard her. My beautiful Mira. I managed to get a few pictures of her on hear in the picture place. I'd love it if you looked at them. They are very recent. Also the link above in on of my posts is a short video of her. I'm so glad I found you guys. Thank
You so much for being with me.

labblab

11-05-2010, 07:24 PM

Janis, your pictures are beautiful! I wish we could be sitting right there beside you in the car. But we are with you in spirit. You are a wonderful mom to your Mira, and I have my fingers crossed that you'll soon be taking her home where you can hold her close.

Many, many hugs being sent to you this very moment...
Marianne

Squirt's Mom

11-05-2010, 07:27 PM

I love the pics, Janis! Mira and Kira both are gorgeous!

Still sitting with you, holding your hands til those hands can hold Mira again.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

littleone1

11-05-2010, 08:06 PM

I'm so sorry to hear what you and Mira are going through, Janis. She is a beautiful girl. I also hope you will be able to be with her and hold her soon. You are both in my thoughts and prayers.

Hugs,

Terri

frijole

11-05-2010, 09:23 PM

I too enjoyed the photos - beautiful dogs. I am standing watch as well and send much love and strength to you, your family and dear Mira. Hugs, Kim

Casey's Mom

11-05-2010, 09:54 PM

I watched your video - she is beautiful. We are here with you honey,

Love and many hugs,

Altira

11-05-2010, 11:15 PM

And here we go, the next terrifing round has begun! Shes panting now constant for the thirty minutes. 168 breaths per minute. Is she in distress? It's getting louder. I'm starting to sound just like her.

Squirt's Mom

11-05-2010, 11:24 PM

Hi Janis,

I assume you are home with her now? Did the vet tell you anything to watch for, anything to call or bring her back for? Any meds to help?

It does sound as if she is in distress, whether from the stress of the day or the liver, I cannot say. It could also be pain I would think.

Hold her and love her all you can. Someone is on the site at all times so talk if you need to.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

lulusmom

11-06-2010, 12:47 AM

Janis,

Normal breaths per minute is usually not more than 20. At 168 per minute, I'd be worried too. It's been about an hour and a half since you posted. How is she doing now? If not better, I would suggest that you try to reach your vet or call an er and explain what is happening.

Altira

11-06-2010, 12:57 AM

God she seemed fine at the clinic. We went for a walk and everything. I just feed her a half a pound of cooked hamberger. I asked if i could feed her anything now with in reason. Anything she might like. She said ok. I figured as much. What does it matter now? I hope so much that i get to take her on a few walks agian. She loves it so. Cancer has taken over her liver and half of one lung. Now it's 20 breaths per minute. She said the reason I could see her heart pounding was because the tumor is pressing her heart against her ribs. I swear it just starting doing that a few days ago. Did it grow that fast? The cough is also from the tumor in her chest. I can't believe this!! I had no idea. Just too weeks ago I thought all was fine. Now?

They said they might be able tell me the type tomorrow. And I supose how much time she has left. A month? A week?

Yes I have pain meds that we can use pretty freely. How do I know if she's in pain? This is going to kill me. She wants me to go back to the original vet. I dnt want to go back there ever!!!

The original vet called and said... good news it's not Cushing's! Well $@, +#€?=*%, Sh@t! Or however that goes. Sorry mom.

I think she is asleep now. From here I can see where they shaved her tummy and the spot where poked it. God just under that pink belly lies the most dreadful thing ever. It's eating up my baby girl!

Altira

11-06-2010, 01:57 AM

She just woke up and rolled over on her back. One paw moved oddly. Breaths slow down and speed up. Nothing like it was. I think my breathing is far worse right now. The worst day in my life. I was happier at the clinic. Me Mira on the floor in a room by ourselfs. Vets right there. I could relax and tease her and tell her I love her. This maybe the longest night of my life. This is just the begining of the nightmare. One i thought god would never put me thru. Only one other thing could have been worse. If she were hit by a car or just suddenly die. And not get to say goodbye. You know I have a gate alarm. If the gate is open the alarm goes off in the house. A hour ago it was 10:40 now it's 10:45. I want go to her and pet her. But she is sleeping she needs to sleep. I am terrified. Will I put her to sleep too soon? Will I wait too long? This one is number 4. Does ... Oh hell I can't say it. She's just a little girl. Only seven. She got robbed. She.

Altira

11-06-2010, 02:04 AM

Would you do chemo?

lulusmom

11-06-2010, 02:18 AM

Altira

11-06-2010, 02:20 AM

$1,600 for today. They did a lot. Do you believe they shaved her and did the u/s with her wide awake. My little screamer made not a sound

lulusmom

11-06-2010, 02:36 AM

Was this a specialty clinic? Did the vet who diagnosed the liver cancer suggest that you speak to an oncologist?

Altira

11-06-2010, 03:38 AM

Shenandoah Diehl DVM DACVECO

She was wonderful. Yes I believe she mentioned a specialist. I recorded our first conversation after the ultrasound. After that it all seemed useless. I'm not sure there is much hope. Im not sure it can help. I cant believe it's so bad. I can't believe she lived with it this long. I can't believe I didn't get a blood test on her before now.

You know the treat trick? When you fear a dog is ill you offer a treat. If he dashes for it and eats it with gusto then you know all is well.

I just tried that on Mira. She did well.

You know all of Mira's other organs are in good shape. Her liver looks like liver and tumor ground up together. She said there is enough good spots to keep it working

lulusmom

11-06-2010, 04:02 AM

Sounds like you went to the Advanced Critical Care Center in Tustin. That is one stop shopping in that big complex. I was there two weeks ago with a rescue who had orthopedic surgery done at the surgical center there and my brother's dog is treating at the cancer center. You would not have had far to go to talk to an oncologist.

I'm glad that Mira is still taking treats. The question is are you? :D

Altira

11-06-2010, 04:02 AM

I gave her a pain pill. She went down to her possuim hunting area a few minutes ago and stood looking around. If I wasn't so muddle headed I might share something of interest.

Altira

11-06-2010, 09:33 AM

Why is it I don't see your posts until later? Why do take this so hard? Why is she whimpering? I'm right here with her. I don't know why she cries. What does she want? I'm just no good at this? I don't know what she wants? She woke me up with a squeaky quiet cry? What does she want? I pet her gently she cries. And I cry. I went outside with her. Still she whimpers. I give her some can food. She likes that. But still ,,,, she cried louder. I gave her another pill way to earily. I'm in tears I don't know what she wants. Her high pitch squeak. Gentle squeak. Soft pant. What does she want? Maybe she wants to just feel better. Maybe she wants me stop coming apart. It doesn't seem like pain what is it? Love? Resting now maybe the pill is working. It seems like that sad whine they get from being put out. Its killing me.

Yes we were there (damn I cant see your last post lulu I can't remember your name or exactly what you said) advanced critical care in Tustin California. You are so close. We live in Orange. We had Kiras knees fixed at VSS there in May. Kodi died there in ... She's whimper again, soft whimpering it kills me. Will she get better? Does she just hurt from the biopsy? Big hole in belly. She is very sensitive. Whimpering stopped again. It does not seem like pain. But Christ I didn't know she had cancer. Squeaking softly. What does she want? My other dog is squeaking too and panting. I feel helpless. My husband is mad at me. I'm crying too much. I'd give her anything she wants but I don't know what see wants. The end always comes like this. Is this the end? She has gas. Squeaking turned away from me. I write all this so you know what is happening. Squeaking breathing a little harder panting now. I'm going to pet her now. But I think she feel back a little. She's been doing that. Flopping down instead of lying down slowly. Is she lossing stregth. You all must think I'm crazy but she is my child. And she can't talk to me. Sorry I'm not going to edit this one. I write horrible I know.

Altira

11-06-2010, 09:43 AM

Don't pet her I think she might be sleeping. Sit still don't wake her. God this is so unfair.

frijole

11-06-2010, 10:08 AM

I wish I could take the pain away from both you and your furry beauty. I would be the same way. You are wise to let her rest up. Continue to be there for her and love her. It is the best medicine there is. You will be in my thoughts and prayers all day.

Sending hugs, strength and love, Kim

Roxee's Dad

11-06-2010, 10:57 AM

My thoughts and prayers for the best possible outcome are with you and Mira.

Sending cyber (((Hugs)))

Harley PoMMom

11-06-2010, 11:05 AM

Oh Janis, I too, wish there was more I could do for you and sweet Mira. We are here for you, we do not think you are crazy, we fully understand the love and devotion you feel for Mira.

You and Mira are in my thoughts and prayer as well.

Love and (((hugs)))
Lori

labblab

11-06-2010, 11:10 AM

Oh Janis, I am so sorry for what you and Mira are going through. But we are here for you to lean on so that you can be there for Mira. You can say whatever you want to us. Do not worry at all about how it sounds. And that way you'll be free to tell Mira how much you love her and what a good girl she is.

With continuing prayers and hugs,
Marianne

Squirt's Mom

11-06-2010, 11:30 AM

Hey Janis,

First, some techie stuff (and that's a JOKE from me! ;) ) When you hit reply and this box comes up to write in, it looks as if that is all that is on the page. But if you will scroll down you will be able to see the most recent replies on your thread. If you need to see more of your thread, then at the very bottom you will see this:

"This thread has more than 10 replies. Click here to review the whole thread."

Go to the bottom to this statement and click on the word "here" and your whole thread will be available. At the top of your thread to the right you will find how many pages are in your thread, too.

Ok, now, how to recognize when Mira is in pain. Dogs are so stoic, not showing any signs of discomfort until the pain reaches a level that would probably put me in the hospital! Unfortunately, cancer is an incredibly painful disease, especially in the final stages. Here are some signs of canine pain:

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/pain-in-dogs/page2.aspx

• Manifestations of pain are highly variable in animals. Some signs are obviously related to pain, while others are more subtle. The individual personality
of the animal and its tolerance for pain also affect the clinical manifestations of pain. Animals in pain often present with a wide variety of signs. Some signs that are associated with pain include the following:
• Altered behavior – quieter than normal, avoidance of other animals or people, hiding, aggressive behavior, fear biting, mental dullness and depression, agitation, restlessness, pacing
• Altered movement or gait – lameness, reluctance to move, reluctance to get up, wobbliness, abnormal carriage or use of one or more legs, stiffness
• Vocalization – growling, howling, yipping, moaning, groaning
• Decreased or lack of appetite (anorexia)
• Increased respiratory rate
• Increased heart rate
• Shock, collapse

Some links to canine cancer forums (but that doesn't mean you can leave us ;) )

http://www.dogcancercare.com/

http://www.cancercompass.com/message-board/cancers/pet-cancer/1,0,119,145.htm

This link seems to have some good info in several areas concerning canine cancer, including vets, financial aid plus a forum for discussion.

http://www.fightcaninecancer.com/cancerresources.html

Ok...now for the hard part...you. I can only imagine how you are feeling; I know how I would be feeling in your shoes and it would be the road to insanity for me. And I would hope someone out there would at least try to reach through my grief so I could be there for my baby. That is what I am going to try to do for you.

Somehow, someway, you have got to get a grip for Mira's sake. Whether she has one day or one year left with you, you have to be the strong one for her. That breathing I told you about earlier...it's even more important now. Our babies pick up on our moods so easily and when Mira senses your distress, that increases hers. She needs to feel safe especially now; she needs to know that, no matter what, her mom is going to be her rock; she needs to know that when she needs you, you are there 100%. You have to put your fear, your pain, your grief in a closet and lock the door for now. Will you be able to do this? Of course not. But the point is that you must try, and try very hard for Mira's sake.

When it is simply too much, then go somewhere by yourself and let it all out - scream, cry, cuss, whatever it takes to ease the pressure a bit so you can carry on, so you can fight with her and for her. And do something good for yourself every now and then. She needs you now more than she ever has. We can help with this for sure - vent to us, cry with us, write long incoherent posts...we don't care, honey, and we do understand so you are safe with us. Let us see your pain, but let Mira see your strength.

Honey, we are with you every second of every day, lending your our strength and hope, holding your hand, and lifting you up.

Sending prayers, healing white light, hugs and belly rubs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Altira

11-06-2010, 12:59 PM

She has been quiet for maybe a half hour. I thought she might be sleeping but she just flopped over on her back. I like to see her belly up it looks so relaxed. Her bare belly looks so pink it's amost red. I guess that's good. Her promonate chest is bouncing from her heart beating.

Maybe I'll get exhausted soon and be able to sleep. Mira, my bed buddy, normally sleeps well when I do. But at the moment if I stop the crying will sent in again. I have looking up facts on Tramadol.

I guess the vet might call soon. I have a list of questions. She is the sweetest woman. I had a new list yesterday I was having trouble reading it. My contacts had all fogged up from crying. She leaned over and helped me read my list. When she told me the news she strated with a couple good things then brushed over the liver thing for a moment. I'm terrified did she say what I think she did? She moves on to something else. Then goes back to the liver yup what she's saying now is the samething. She stands up and faces me and holds her hands in a football shape and says one of them is this big. I'm not saying anything. I fighting tears. She sits beside me again and says I've never seen anything that looks like this and not be cancer. Three masses in the liver and one is the size of a football. She looks in my eyes and can see I understand. She asks if I'm ok and I just shake my head no and start to cry. She sends in someone who explains what further test can be done. I'm only hearing bits and pieces. Finally I just said do all the ones that look for more cancer and her leg i want her to walk. And the biopsy. Hours later my husband is there no too sitting in the parking lot with me. My phone rings. I don't recognize the number I don't answer but I did look the number up. Damn it it was them! I frantically play back the message DANMED IPHONE! message playback you can hardly heard it. I think she said she found another mass. I'm out of the car and waiting to find out. She is busy busy I (we) had to wait a long time. She takes us back and showed us the xray. I started to feel sick. A snowy patch about the size of my hand on the chest wall behind her heart. Behind us in a cage I can hear Mira crying. I cringe at every sound. I said Mira. The vet says I don't think that's Mira. I said yes it is. So she calls over to someone and asks if that was Mira. Someone confirmed it was. I think they gave her more meds then. So now we will include a Biopsy of this one too. By the time we got back to the car I thought I would throwup. After Bud left I sat there until 4 then I went in the office. I snuck into the back around the corner and sat in a chair. A dozen people going in and out of where Mira is. Mira is not crying I'm not in the way, I stay there. Had she been crying you couldnt have stopped me from going to her. I get noticed a lot. Busy busy workers. One peron asked if I had been helped. I was o viosly crying. I just pointed to the room she was in and said Mira not crying. As if I was ok with that. They let me stay there. About a half hour later they asked if I'd like to sit in a room with Mira for awhile. I was so greatfull. She put me in a spot clean examining room it all looks new there. She puts a thick blanket on the floor. And about five minutes later here comes Mira. Looking right as rain considering. I sat on the floor with her. I felt relaxed then. There were maybe twenty people there to save us. I dont think i cryed at all then. About an hour later as promised they began to discharge Mira. The doctor found me walking Mira outside. We went in and that's when she helped with my questions. Then she took my paper and typed it all up with her answers in case I forgot or didn't understand. About ten questions I had typed up at lightening speed. I already mentioned the cost and you know it seemed like nothing at all They erned every penny of it. Oddly I didn't want to lea... the phone is ringing god! Panic! Is it her? I'm not ready to talk to her. Whoever hungup thank god. I need to get ready. How long does Mira have? How will I ever get those words out? I'm terrified. Another blow is coming today. Maybe I'll start to feel tired and sleep though the call. And wait til tomorrow. Not likely. I'll jump out of my skin if the phone rings. The ring like an electric shock will wake me up. Today's vertict as fightening as yesterdays.

Altira

11-06-2010, 01:00 PM

You may have guessed Mira has been quiet all thru that last post.

Altira

11-06-2010, 01:12 PM

She said she could find no reason for miras limping. I don't see that as a good thing. Brain waves can get messed up. Miras awake now she growled at bud petting her.

littleone1

11-06-2010, 01:16 PM

I'm keeping you, Mira, and your family in my thoughts and prayers.

Squirt's Mom

11-06-2010, 01:22 PM

Mira growling at Bud could be a sign of pain. Is Tramadol all they gave you for pain? When you hear from the vet today and find out what type she has, ask her about a stronger pain med for Mira. Surely there is something better than Tramadol for this level of pain.

Let us know what the vet has to say today and hang in there!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

frijole

11-06-2010, 02:17 PM

When you have time please do read the information you have on tramadol. I have used it and had to reduce the dosage (mine was just for joint pain in a 16 yr old dog) but I wanted to point out a couple of things - my dog got diarrhea pretty bad and she also acted 'loopy' staring at a wall and not moving. It scared me and I ended up cutting the dosage in half. Your situation is different obviously - I just wanted to give you a heads up so if you see these types of signs you are aware that it could be from tramadol.

Continued prayers and warm thoughts, strength sent your way. My heart just breaks reading what you are going through and not being able to do anything to help. Keep the faith, stay strong and give Mira lots of hugs from all of us here. Kim

Altira

11-06-2010, 02:27 PM

You are rightl Lestlie. And I am sure to fail. I have in most things with my dogs.

Squirt's Mom

11-06-2010, 04:09 PM

Oh, no....you aren't failing at all, honey. You are doing your very best and that is all any of us can do, ever!

...Will you be able to do this? Of course not.

This statement didn't mean that you would fail; it meant that what I am asking you to do is impossible under these circumstances and that I am aware of that fact even as I tell you those things. Which is why the sentence ended as it did, telling you that trying was the point. I'm sorry I wasn't clearer about that. :o

In order to fail Mira, you would have to ignore her or worse...and that is not at all what you are doing. You are seeking help for her from doctors, you are following their directions, you have reached out to the WORLD online trying to find help...that is not failure, that is love in action. I can see in your pictures that Mira and Kira have been well loved and well cared for by you so there is no reason to think things would change now. Ok?

You are certainly entitled to fall apart. I would come completely unraveled, there is no doubt. Especially at first learning of such a diagnosis. The burden you are being asked to carry is astronomical. But, I believe we are never asked to carry more than we can bear. So, this tells me that you are a very strong woman and you have reserves in your soul that you may not even be aware are there. Sometimes we have to dig very deep but what we need is always there, or we wouldn't have the need. You will get through this and you will do so with the same love, devotion, and care you have always shown Mira. I know this. So when you doubt yourself, remember that I have faith in you.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Altira

11-07-2010, 12:26 AM

Kim - you are right the doctor has advised me to decrease the tramidol and reminded me that Mira was not crying when she came in. I guess that means Mira was not showing pain from the cancer yesterday. They are trying to figure it all out quickly within their complex. Something about a round cancer. Not the best or the worst outlook. Chemo might work. She will call with more tonight soon maybe. I'm not ready to study cancer yet.

Mira is peaceful at the moment. Awaiting the rice and cottage cheese dinner her daddy has gone off to the store to get.

Leslie - your input has helped though, I have been able to compose myself some and be cheerful to Mira some. Course when scary things happen I lose it real easy. But thank you for reminding me that being strong if you can is a good thing. At lease raise the pitch of you voice. They love baby talk don't they. They are so precious.

Mira has what bud calls a bullet hole in her belly where they did the liver biopsy. Maybe stuck something in her about five inches. Right into her liver. Tramadol makes huskys cry I would think a bullet hole would too. God only knows what chemo might do. Huskies rarely ever bark but they do whine real easy. So I need to consider all this and try not to panic. It she keeps crying after three days I will look into other pain killers. I mean I won't let her suffer. If the cancer hurts that much and the doctor siad it would, we'll not fail her on that. I don't think Mira has slept much. Her potty problem upsets her.

Altira

11-07-2010, 03:44 AM

Mira has a life expetensy of 6 months with chemo. Maybe a year.

The doctor called twice tonight. Their pilimninary finds show this is a round (?) cancer. It's not the best or the worse type cancer it's in the middle. Chemo is possible. She said she would do it.

We will do it. We are waiting for results from the main lab before we can start.

I'm trying to feel happy about this. It's sure better then no chance at all. But.... Well you can imagine what I'm thinking and feeling.

labblab

11-07-2010, 07:24 AM

Janis,

I personally would consider chemo if it would extend my dog's life. Unlike people, dogs don't get sick from chemo. My brother's dog has had two sessions and he never appeared to be sick.
Janis, I would opt for the chemo, too. I've heard exactly the same thing that Glynda has written. And we've had several members now who have received significant extensions of time with their pups after selecting chemo treatment.

So hang in there, girl!! We're all standing strong behind you and Mira.

Marianne

Franklin'sMum

11-07-2010, 07:44 AM

Janis,

I'm so very sorry for what you're going through, and know that you and Bud are doing everything possible for Mira. You're all in my thoughts and prayers.

Jane, Franklin and Bailey xxx

Casey's Mom

11-07-2010, 10:17 AM

I am so glad you have options - be strong for your girl. I have learned on this site that chemo does not have all of the side effects on dogs as it does on humans so that is a blessing.

Hugs to you,

frijole

11-07-2010, 10:24 AM

Thanks for the update. Please know we are cheering you on. Your goal now is quite simple - enjoy every single day with your dear one. And that is a lesson to all of us right? Continued hugs and prayers, Kim

Squirt's Mom

11-07-2010, 11:02 AM

Hi Janis,

Girl, I am so proud of you! :):) One step at a time, one day at a time and you are stepping out! :cool::):cool:

I don't know what "round" could mean in reference to a mass, but we can sure try to find out. If you will notice under our logo at the top of the page, the second word in white at the bottom is "Educate". That applies to all of us; we learn from each other then share what we learn.

I encourage you to join one or more of the canine cancer forums. You will be able to talk to people who are facing the same thing you and Mira are and who can share their unique experiences with you. Again, that does not mean you can leave us!!!! ;) You and Mira are family now and we want ya'll here with us.

Keep your chin up! You are doing a great job, Mom.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Altira

11-07-2010, 12:09 PM

I am so glad you have options - be strong for your girl. I have learned on this site that chemo does not have all of the side effects on dogs as it does on humans so that is a blessing.

Hugs to you,

Yes that is what they told me. I will try to met with the person who the ACC doctor asked me to see. On Thursday. They have already discussed it.

Last night I called ACC and asked for all of their records on Mira. They sent me ten pages. They did everything you can imagine. All written in greek of course. I think I read the cancer type but I'll have to look again. Maybe the lung mass came first. It was refered to as the primary I think.

We had a good night. No coughing, almost no whining and only a tiny tiny bit oh Tramadol over twelve hours. I even got a wag a couple times wow.

Here's one for you... Mira's affected lung is on her LEFT side. She has an mild ear infection on the LEFT side. She has an unexplainable bad limp in her LEFT front leg. They can find no reason for the limp. I'm really concerned about this limp. You know how a dog gets when he can't walk anymore. Can't make his legs work right. They set it down wrong (knuckle over) then look all confused. God i dont want to remember that. Anyway... It seems like that. I sure hope I'm wrong.

I appreciate everyone of you here truly. You are all valuable and caring in your own way.

Janis

labblab

11-07-2010, 12:12 PM

I encourage you to join one or more of the canine cancer forums. You will be able to talk to people who are facing the same thing you and Mira are and who can share their unique experiences with you. Again, that does not mean you can leave us!!!! ;) You and Mira are family now and we want ya'll here with us.

Keep your chin up! You are doing a great job, Mom.

Janis, I just want to "second" what Leslie has already said (with additional emphasis on the part about YOU NOT LEAVING US)!!!

Also, I think I can shed a little light as to what the vets mean when they use the word "round" -- I believe they are indicating that Mira's cancer falls within the category of being a "round cell" type of tumor. Mast cell tumors are among the most common type of round cell tumors. I believe that round cell cancer occurs most frequently as tumors on or just below the skin. But some round cell tumors can also invade internal organs, as appears to be the case for Mira. Here's link to a brief description of the different types of round cell tumors:

http://www.vetinfo.com/the-5-types-of-round-cell-tumors-in-dogs.html

Marianne

lulusmom

11-07-2010, 12:40 PM

Altira

11-07-2010, 12:43 PM

"Hepatic and thoracic masses likely related and likely neoplastic, pending stat cytology...."

That's what it says under Assessment on one sheet. She told me all about it in detail over the phone but all I could remember was round. That's why I went after the records. She did say that the two sample matched. She hoped the lung was a fatty harmless type. If it started there it could be something she breathed in. My husband thinks it was his failt. He sprays foot spray every morning. For years and years. I don't want to blame him but it is possible and Mira sure hated it. I didn't say anything. Bud comes in this morning and says "no more spraying". Poor Bud, I keep thinking of things I did too.

Damn why is Mira crying now? A lot..

Altira

11-07-2010, 01:03 PM

Oh ok. She wanted Kira's spot! Kira had the spot next to me. This happens a lot. Mira will whine and whine until Kira gives up something. I'll look at Kira and say can she have it for awhile Mira is driving me crazy. And Kira does it. If it's a bone I'll take it and give it back to Kira after a while. My dogs learned to share they do it on there own a lot. Yup that was it. It's all quiet again.

Huskies whine a lot. How do you know when it's pain? I'm glad I figured this one out. I don't want Mira to be in pain.

Ok... I'm 54 and live in Orange California. How about you all? I will stay Marianne..

Altira

11-07-2010, 01:24 PM

Hi Janis,

I'm so glad to hear that you and Mira had a much better night. :) I really haven't a clue as to why Mira is limping but I do know that just like all of the other body parts and organs, cancer can affect the radial nerve, which pretty much operates the foreleg. When this happens a dog will knuckle over because the leg goes numb and they can't feel it. Hopefully, the specialist you will be seeing on Thursday will be able to shed some light on the subject.

Glynda

Oh that would be good (I think). Bone cancer, would that be visable in an xray? God I don't want to know? I think my brother mentioned bone cancer. Please no more....

Ummm Mira's poop is soft. Its the Tramadol right? It started getting soft then and continues to get softer. Not much form left now. It says I am to report diarrhea. Her belly makes noise right after she eats too.

Janis

frijole

11-07-2010, 01:46 PM

Janis, I'm the one whose dog took tramadol and had the runs all night long while I slept. :o Yes, normal. I didn't know the side effects so that's why I warned you. Didn't want you worrying. If you have any canned pumpkin (plain, no spices) give her about a tablespoon. It plugs them up and works fast. It will harden the poops for you. Plus it is good for them. Just don't give more than one T as it can do the reverse. I learned that trick here and it does work.

It is normal to try to blame yourselves.. don't. Focus on what you have left. I don't know about your family but mine is WORTHLESS at giving me advice on my dog. They aren't dog people like me and they try sometimes but usually do more harm than good... just my experience. You have enough going on and I say leave it to the experts and not the arm chair quarterbacks. ;)

Keep the faith. You got the dx out of the way. Now its onto the treatment phase. You are holding up fine. Feel free to rant to us... we can take it. More hugs, Kim

Altira

11-07-2010, 09:57 PM

Someone changed the thread title. That was good!

Kim - thank you for the pumpkin idea. I think I have some canned pumpkin. I always check out new meds for the dogs. I like to know how common they are, if they are the one most used currently and the side effects. But it is comforting to know if others have had the same problems huh? They terrify us with all these things that can happen huh?

I'm so sorry that your family doesn't sympathize with things concerning your dogs. I'm so lucky. My family was all in tears on the 5th too. It's hard to imagine that lossing a child could be any worse. I supose it is but how could anyone keep their sanity? You know? My mom lost her first child at age 1 1/2. Us kids never knew him of course. He choked to death on the changing table strap. They didntknow the danger of it back then. Mom said she felt like her skin was pealing off! It's the ultimate helplessness. Some people just get that close to dogs too. Some poeple can truly see the real value in dogs and we love them so much for it. Personaly if I hear a baby cry it doesn't bother me at all. Butif I hear a dog it tears me apart.

Mira is laying in the kitchen staring at nothing. I don't think she has slept in days. What is she thinking? I'm going to go cook her some hamberger. She has been eating well. We'll go for a short slow walk too.

Altira

11-08-2010, 06:36 AM

I find nothing! Anywhere! That there is any hope at all for Mira. I find where it says lung cancer can cause lameness. Everywhere it says chemo makes them ill. Oh but you can do this and this and this and this...................... That can help. Mira is an extremely sensitive dog. I can just see the first treatment sending her into a fit of pain. And my screamer's blood murder scream for real. Two hours later she has a heart attack and dies. Maybe I shouldnt have gone in search of this illness this time. There is nothing remotely good to be found. God I shouldn't have looked. My beautiful girl.
Why didn't they mention lung cancer and lameness? Her leg is not getting better. At her food bowl tonight she started to tip over. I need to buck up and go see a specialist and not wait until Thursday. See what they say. Don't asume your dog is ok. Get chest X-rays, complete blood tests and ultrasounds done often. I havent had to work in years, I rarely leave the house, my dogs are with me almost 24/7 following me everywhere, always in the house near me and I didn't have a clue.

labblab

11-08-2010, 08:00 AM

Dear Janis,

I know that every situation is different and that there are no promises or guarantees regarding treatment. But here's a bit of a different perspective to perhaps balance the bad news that you have been reading. This is a quote from one of our Moderators, Debbie, when she offered support last spring to a member who was considering chemo treatment for her golden retriever diagnosed with lymphoma. As you will see, Debbie's own dog who was also treated for lymphoma benefited from many months of remission following chemo:

When I quote you average remission times, please remember that an oncologist is going to give you %'s based on the treatment histories they have seen in their practice experience, some dogs do better, some do not do as well. When B was treated with the dox, the average remission time I was given was 6-8 months. B was one of his oncologist's huge success stories as his remission lasted 16 months with an excellent quality of life. I had serious doubts about treating as I'm a medical lab technologist who works in hematology, & I know what chemo does to people. I was repeatedly assured by B's oncologist that dogs do not respond like humans, chemo actually improves their quality of life. I'm looking at her like, "yeah, right! Do you forget what I do for a living?" She was right. I had a very sick boy who was literally dying day by day in front of me. About 10 days after his first round of chemo, I got home one afternoon from work, B came out immediately to meet me. I was ecstatic. I knew I had my boy back. It was literally like his fairy godmother waved her magic wand & said "You will feel better!"

The member to whom Debbie was writing did end up opting for chemo treatment, too, and her dog has also tolerated the chemo without problems and is still doing well six months after starting treatment (and recently celebrated his 12th birthday in style!). Once again, I realize that Mira's cancer is of a different type, and therefore an oncologist's recommendations may also differ re: possible chemo treatment and likely outcome. But I do strongly encourage you to hold onto hope until you have had the chance to talk to the specialist. It may be impossible to gain as much extra time with Mira as you would wish and pray for. But it may still be possible to give yourselves at least a number of quality days to savor and fill with love.

Marianne

Altira

11-08-2010, 09:33 AM

Angels I tell you. Marianne you never fail to make me feel better as I ride Hells Rollercoster. I'm not going to read any more about it. At least i hope i dont. (hmm someone is peering at me from under the coffee table, i love you Mira) The doctor said we were somewhere in between but it looks to me we are at the very bottom. With this lameness (which is said to be related to lung cancer) I think there is more then we know about. I pray it's not headed to her brain. We didnt look there. I tried to brush her tonight but she didn't want me to.

CARDIAC: large L lateral thoracic mass effect (suspect pulmonary) 6.2cm x 8.8cm identical appearance to hepatic masses.
(mass overlying cardiac silhouette on lateral views. Remainder pulmonary parenchyma WNL)

LIVER: two large confluent hepatic masses (mixed echogenicity no cavitations but swirled appearance with hyperechoic foci (not obviously mineralized) within L liver 12.3 x 8.1cm (together) third mass (appearance identical) within caudate lobe 3.2cm diameter not obstructing GB/billiary tract. Remainder hepatic parenchyma WNL.

Is that first one lung cancer or something else? Why would it be listed under cardiac?

Altira

11-09-2010, 12:16 AM

No chemo...

My brother read the records he says it's too late. His daughter has been a receptionist for a vet for years and years says don't do it, do that other natural thing. His wife tells of two horrible experiences with her pets and horrible deaths. Everything I read says it won't work. I don't think the chemo poeple will tell me the truth. They want to do their tests. I don't blame them for that.

Me and Mira went for a long walk. Two miles maybe. She loved it and did well, even pulling some. She was not happy that I took Kira after that briefly. She was telling me off I think. I will take her again in a while. And again and again until she doesn't want to anymore. Until there is no more happiness in life.

labblab

11-09-2010, 07:53 AM

Dear Janis,

We will totally respect any decision that you make. Because we know how dearly you love Mira, and that you are wanting the best for her. The only comment that I know to add, however, is that sometimes "chemo" can be something as simple as giving a dog prednisone tablets or steroid injections. I know your top priority is keeping her as comfortable as possible, and that you will be the best judge as to the quality of her life. But if the visit to the specialist is not too burdensome for you financially, you may still want to at least hear what they have to say. You don't have to pursue any treatment that you are not comfortable with. But they may have some prescription medication suggestions that you would want to consider, even if it is only for the short run.

Marianne

Altira

11-09-2010, 12:18 PM

Oh GOD Mira just walked by looking like her back leg was glued to her hip!!! It held her up but didnt move at all Then she drank a half a bowl of water. *I'm so scared. It's a little better now. But it was fightening to see her do that. My god she was fine two weeks ago. *She hurt herself on our walk last night? I gave her some Tramadol.

Altira

11-09-2010, 12:20 PM

Altira

11-09-2010, 12:23 PM

Now my KIRA is coughing and I'm lossing it..

lulusmom

11-09-2010, 12:33 PM

Hi Janis,

If you're appointment on Thursday is with the Veterinary Cancer Group in Tustin, they are not going to lie to you. They will tell you exactly what you are facing, whether there is a possibility of remission with chemo and how long they think Mira has with and without treatment. As Marianne mentioned, there is probably more than one treatment option, which VCG will discuss with you. They are a great facility and treat cancer patients from all over So Cal.

It breaks my heart that you are so confused and scared and I'm hoping that the docs at VCG can makes things a lot more clear for you. Perhaps you might want to consider calling VCG to see if they may have an earlier appointment.

Glynda

apollo6

11-09-2010, 04:06 PM

I will be praying for your beautiful baby.
sonja and Apollo

Altira

11-10-2010, 03:38 AM

I don't think she is going to make it. I wish it wasnt so late, I wish I had someone to talk to.

frijole

11-10-2010, 07:20 AM

Still reading and sending support and strength your way. Is there anyway as Glynda suggested to move your appt up? Huge bear hugs, Kim

labblab

11-10-2010, 07:57 AM

The watching and the waiting can drive you crazy and break your heart. Hopefully today will hold some better moments when Mira seems to be more comfortable and you two can have some quality time together. I'll be thinking of you both.

Marianne

Casey's Mom

11-10-2010, 08:17 AM

Sending lots of love and strength your way. I hope you have a better day today.

Love and hugs,

Altira

11-10-2010, 08:43 AM

She is limping horribly. I called ACC they said it was ok to increase Tramadol. I told them that she was not sleeping, appetite has gone way down and legs not so good walking. They said then you better bring her in and move on to the next step. I was afraid to ask what the next step is.*

I increased the Tramadol. I had to force it down her throat. It did not help her leg at all. But she was barking in her sleep awhile ago. She looks peaceful now.*

I'm just putting off the inevitable. I talked to her for awhile. Asked her if it was time to go. She didn't say. She finally turned away from me.*

I went for a long walk by myself. I found nothing.*

When i got back, I tricked her into looking out the window at me. Our Mira who liked to look at the window.*

And once again I'll fail her as she dies because I won't be able to be with her. I'm not sure I'll be able look at her when she is gone. *

As Mira limped her way over to me just now... Kira looked at Mira with worry in her eyes. And she whined a couple times. That's the first time I have seen Kira do that... Kira was never the same after Kodi died.*

Altira

11-10-2010, 08:54 AM

I really don't know what to do. I've changed my mind three times in the last twelve hours. Probably more. I guess I should go to ACC but I'm scared she will never come home again. God she's only seven! I asked my husband to stay home today. Chemo really seems unlikely now. How can I put her thru more? Well at least she's no crying. My brother says as long as she eats and doesn't vomit and isnt restless then she is doing good. God help me...

Thank you for being here you guys.

labblab

11-10-2010, 08:56 AM

Janis, I know it is probably impossible for you to believe this right now. But you are not failing Mira. You are with her every minute, and you are witnessing her pain, and you are judging how much it is fair to ask of her and how much it is fair to want for her. These are things that tear apart your own heart as you try to decide what is best. So you are not failing her, no matter how it feels to you. When the time comes to release her from the tumors, you will not fail her if you cannot bear to be physically present. She will feel your love from the ends of the universe.

I wish I could somehow share your burden. But you are the one person who is best able to judge what is best for Mira. Whatever you decide is right, because your decision comes from your love for her. Whatever happens, we are here for you.

Marianne

labblab

11-10-2010, 08:59 AM

I do have one more thought, though. Could you call ACC and ask them what they would do for Mira if you bring her in -- what the "next step" is? That way, it might feel easier to make a choice about it.

Marianne

Altira

11-10-2010, 09:22 AM

God Mairanne. I have spent my whole life avoiding to asking for stuff like that. An old vet used to say "well fido has given us 13 good years" and I knew what he ment. This sounds like the same thing. But Mira's only been here seven. Had I known a year ago I probably could have easily saved her. I will think on it Marianne. If they say put her to sleep today I will flip out!! Just how humane am I capably of being? She rests peaceful but not sleeping. Hang on for another day? Another bright moment that only feels bright for a moment. Does she want to go? Of course she doesn't she's only seven! Damn it!!

Altira

11-10-2010, 09:40 AM

Ok Marianne I called. They don't know what the girl meant other than a doctor she see her. She said they would not tell me it was to put her to sleep. But still it could easily end up that way. Mira my sweetheart who always follows me (sob) limped into the room and sniffed at the front door. She wants to go out. She wants to go for another walk!!!

missbeagle

11-10-2010, 10:13 AM

Janis -

You need to remain positive no matter what. Mira is hanging in there and you are doing what you need to do for both of you now. Although this is scary, I was always an odds player. If the vet told me there was a 50-50 chance, I usually took those odds and ran with them. Mira is counting on you to make good decisions and be a good advocate for her. Changing your mind is not necessarily a bad thing, it just means that you have changed your mind, that's all. No more and no less. Your being here and venting with us is a good thing too. We feel your pain and helplessness and want to help you make a good decisions.

Sending white light and good vibes,

Gretchen and Rusty in NC

Altira

11-10-2010, 10:23 AM

I should go to ACC huh? And find out. I don't have to put her to sleep even if they suggest it? I have to get my husband to go too. I can't do this one alone. He may not agree she needs to. I'm going to get dressed and try to wake him up. This is hard I don't want to go.

Altira

11-10-2010, 10:51 AM

I think I'm going to hyperventilate. This can't be happening.

missbeagle

11-10-2010, 11:07 AM

Janis -

You don't have to do anything that you are not comfortable with - ever.

Gretchen and Rusty in NC

Squirt's Mom

11-10-2010, 12:32 PM

Dear Janis,

If you can, go to ACC and just talk to them. Take Bud with you and ya'll just see what the specialists think. Then you have a bit more info which may provide the answers you need. Have you talked with anyone from the cancer forums? Did anyone have any experience similar to Mira's story to share?

Oh, I wish there were words to help you understand that you are not failing your baby girl in any way. To emotionally fail Mira you would have to walk away from her and erase her from your heart, never looking back. You are right by her side instead, holding her, hugging her, kissing her, and doing all you can to keep her comfortable and happy as she can be.

I can only imagine the helplessness you are feeling. It is this feeling of helplessness that fuels guilt; we always feel there HAS to be something we can do, there HAS to be something we are missing, there HAS to be something somewhere but we are simply unable to find it...we aren't smart enough, strong enough. So we feel as if we are failing and the guilt begins to eat us alive. Which makes us feel even more helpless, and hopeless. A terrible, horrifying cycle which we cannot stop and we become lost in the vortex.

But, you know what? Not all humans are capable of feeling these emotions, of finding themselves in this vicious cycle, because they can't comprehend the depth of love required in order for our souls to reach such a state of despair. To shed a single tear for a "dumb animal" is beyond their comprehension! How small and empty and cold their souls must be.

You and I and everyone here have been blessed; we were giving souls capable of holding love beyond measure. Each and everyone of us knows when we first fall in love with our furbabies that one day we will face the pain of losing them, of waking up one morning to find their physical place beside us forever empty. Yet we take them into our homes and hearts willingly, gladly, with joy, and we love them completely every single day we are given to share with them.

You love Mira and, Janis, love never fails.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

lulusmom

11-10-2010, 12:36 PM

Janis, you probably need to see an oncologist but if you can't get in to see one at VCG today, I would suggest that you take her back to ACC. Please keep us posted.

Glynda

labblab

11-10-2010, 12:37 PM

Janis, I agree with Gretchen, Leslie and Glynda. You will still be in charge of any decisions, regardless. The info that the specialist can give you may help you make up your mind. But you and Bud are still the ones in charge. And nothing needs to happen today other than the vet just taking another look at Mira.

Marianne

Altira

11-10-2010, 12:48 PM

We here now will let you know

Squirt's Mom

11-10-2010, 12:53 PM

We are there with you in spirit...

frijole

11-10-2010, 01:27 PM

I'm with you too! Just a reminder that some of what you were seeing had to be the tramadol... it has opiate like effects. Are you seeing the oncologists? Sending love and strength.. Kim

Altira

11-10-2010, 02:35 PM

We are ok. We are tired. No death sentence today! Thank for pushing me, more later.

Squirt's Mom

11-10-2010, 02:45 PM

~~sigh of relief~~ plus hugs and belly rubs!

Altira

11-10-2010, 10:18 PM

Ok here is what happened at Advanced Cridical Care today. They won't say if she is ok or not. They never once mentioned putting her to sleep. They did want to keep her there and give her an iv and such. Which i know would help a lot but i wont have her spend any of this time away from me confused and frightened. But she certainly looked better there then at home. I took all the notes I had made about current conditions and when it was. We went thru that. She defined what pain might look like and Mira had shown all those last night. Today seems much better. She even jumped up in my Jeep herself and made it! I didn't want her to try though.

Anyway, Mira is to rest. No more walks. She was given pills to help her eat. So far that has worked. She eat 1/3can of food willingly. They gave her a shot to hopefully help her sleep. That didn't work but she is resting pretty peacefully.

They want us to do chemo but I doubt that we will. But those people that do that may prove to be a big help. They can tell me satisticsly how much time she has without chemo. They can give us drugs to help with the final days and maybe most importantly be able to help me to know when it's time to go. That is if we make it that far. I have an appointment with them late on Friday. That could be too late. Some of the answers won't come until the biopsy result is here. Which hopefully will be before then.

We also learned that they will do an ultrasound on our ten year old Kira even though she has no symptoms. I see no other way to catch this dreadful cancer in time in dogs. We had our answer in thirty minutes. They don't even put them out to do it. And the cost is very reasonable.

Altira

11-10-2010, 10:41 PM

Altira

11-11-2010, 02:55 AM

They said i cant walk her. So I took her to the store with me tonight. They said she could have dog biscuits so I bought a big box. She likes to go. No correction, she likes to be anywhere I am. Her seperation anxiety was partly my fault. She latched on to me from the start and I latched back. I think I should give her more Tramadol, she is very restless. Keeps flopping over, getting up and moving, in the pillow out of the pillow, biting on her paw. Half the time she lays on her chest with her front paws crunched up under her. She isnt sleeping, not in days. They say dogs dont sleep when they are curled up, they can only sleep lying flat. How long her days must seem. I haven't slept much either.

God there were signs that something was wrong. A cry and an odd reaction. Then it was gone. God didn't want me to save her.

I feel so selfish for keeping her here, but when you look at the interest in her eyes when outside, I think she must not be feeling any pain right now. I just want to sit with her and watch life go by with her. Boy who's going to have the seperation anxiety now? I'm far too attached to her. Maybe she is sleeping now it's hard to tell from here but her breaths seem deep and slow and it sounds like she is snoring. I hope no one makes a sound. As i write this I dozed off myself and dreamed of something odd I can't remember. I wake with a start and see only ten minutes have pasted.

Do you ever have bad dreams about your dogs? I do all the time. They are always running away. A collar comes loose and I can't hang on. Then I'm screaming for them. Screaming there name and searching. I often wake up and cry. I get up and find the one that ran off and hug them and ask them to please never run away. I don't let myself think of there deaths normally and I'm sure my dreams are the result of that. I'm like a dog, I am unhappy when I'm not with my pack.

When our Kodi died it was when buds brothers wife had died. We had Kodi put to sleep the same day we left for a funeral four hours away. I wasn't thinking. We left Kira in the house in the care of a dog sitter. Nothing new there but half way there I suddenly realized... Kira had never been left alone ever!!!! Ho my god what had I done! I was frantic. I asked my parents to go sit with her. They said she had torn up the carpet at the door where she had last seen us. That night I told bud that right after the service I'm going home. He said well see. I said no I'm going. I cried uncontrollably that night not for Kodi but for what my Kira must be feeling. After the service I jumped in my car and dashed for home. Thinking over and over I'm coming kira I'm coming. I found a very tromitzed Kira when I got home. She ran from door to door. Like where is Kodi? Where is Kodi? I calmed her down and held her. He's gone Kira. She was never the same again. I pasted out on the sofa with her under my hand. Kira was never that carefree three year old she was when we left. Now she will loose another. Her constant friend fort the last seven years. This sucks, it just sucks. I'm sure all of your dogs have suffered from loss too.

Altira

11-11-2010, 10:21 AM

Going back to ACC again today. Hopfully talk to chemo people, hopfully get a ultrasound and chest xray on ten yr old Kira and little Mira is not able to walk on left rear leg. Yes the LEFT again. Everything on her left side is failing!!! That's the side I'm on too I guess.

I found in my notes back when Mira was six months old I had sent my brother miras current blood test taken at that time and i had noted that the vet was concerned about miras liver!!!! Way back then, I don't even remember that. Knowing me I probably didn't want to remember. So many things i missed. I hope I'm in time to save Kira!! What if her blood test was misread too? She has many highs and lows too. Cushings being in there once too!

Squirt's Mom

11-11-2010, 10:26 AM

Since Squirt was diagnosed with Cushing's, I see it everywhere I look. So many times I have seen pups and been 100% sure they were cushinoid only to learn they really were just old and over-weight! :o:rolleyes:

I hope all is good with Kira's workup today!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

missbeagle

11-11-2010, 01:47 PM

Janis -

Sending good thoughts to you and Kira today too! :)

Gretchen and Rusty

labblab

11-11-2010, 01:57 PM

Janis -

Sending good thoughts to you and Kira today too! :)

Gretchen and Rusty
Me too!!!!!!!!!!

Marianne

frijole

11-11-2010, 02:12 PM

Me too!!!!!!!!!!

Marianne

Me THREE!
:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

lulusmom

11-11-2010, 02:14 PM

me three!
:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

me four!!!!

Altira

11-11-2010, 02:21 PM

Oh god kiras veritic is moments away. Looking a her blood test I see Cushings. I see liver and pancrious. Reg vet said urine infection. I did not see cancer. I'm so tired. Up all night with Mira.

Altira

11-11-2010, 04:07 PM

Kira Cushings most likely. TELL ME I can still have her for three years. Does catching it earily help?

Altira

11-11-2010, 04:36 PM

Somebody!!!!

lulusmom

11-11-2010, 04:43 PM

Hi Janis,

Can you tell us why you think Kira may have cushing's? Cushing's is not a death sentence and with effective treatment, dogs can live out their natural life expectancy with a really good quality of life. My first cushdog is a rarity and was diagnosed at 3 years old. She is now 9 years old and still going strong. We think she had cushing's for at least before being diagnosed. My 2nd cushdog was a foster dog who we adopted because we knew he had cushing's. He had had the disease for a very, very long time and was a walking infection from head to tail, had very little fur and could hardly stand up due to severe muscle wasting. I've gotten estimates on his age of anywhere from 8 to 15 years old. He's been on treatment for three years and you'd never know he was the same pathetic dog that walked through our door in August, 2007. Whether a dog is diagnosed early or later in the disease, treatment can work miracles. I saw it happen twice. FYI, the object of treatment is to improve/resolve the symptoms so it is not recommended to treat a dog until the dog has overt symptoms.

Now that Kira may be cushingoid, please remember to get her records as well and post test results here.

Glynda

Squirt's Mom

11-11-2010, 05:32 PM

Hi Janis,

No, Cushing's is not a death sentence. If it turns out that Kira does have Cushing's it will mean a change in your lives in some areas but as Glynda said, with the right treatment, cush pups live out their normal life spans, some longer. Vets will tell clients that a diagnosis of Cushing's means 2 years with or without treatment and this is simply bull-hockey! They are just repeating what they were told in school...and much of that is way out of date! ;)

You need to know that Cushing's is a slowly progressing disease, taking years and years to do real damage in most cases. So don't let the possibility make you feel pressured into starting Kira on treatment now. Rushing into treatment is much more dangerous than waiting to make sure it IS Cushing's and then deciding the best treatment approach for her. So take your time, have her thoroughly tested, rule out all other possibilities like diabetes, thyroid issues and other non-adrenal problems, then proceed with treatment.

I so hope this is not the case for Kira but just the extra stress of the situation with Mira and that she gets a clean bill of health once the tests are done.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Altira

11-12-2010, 02:47 AM

Thank you. The doctor didn't seem overly worried about it. I can not belive my vet misdiagnost both tests. He said it was just a urine infection. Oh well. Advanced Cridical Care (ACC) will take care of Kira from now on.

Of course I will pass along all the test results. But I can tell you right now Kira fits all the symptoms to the letter. She has for years. The desperation for food, drinking enormous amounts of water and peeing huge puddles. Lakes! The distended belly. She also said it explained the failure oh her knee legaments. And why the fur on her back never grew back after the last surgery. It's been seven months and still it looks like they shaved her yesterday. The other side done two years ago was slow to come in was back to normal in six months. I have so many questions for you all.

My memory is so poor. I recorded all the conversations between me and the doctors. All that complicated stuff. I probably have three hours worth. I need to focus on Mira right now. At the moment I feel like I've created a frankinstien. All these pills and forcing her to do stuff. The way she looks at me looks like she is saying why didn't you just let me go? Her eyes stare and her head wobbles.

Worse yet the very first thing I did was the wrong thing! Wecwanted her to sleep. When we left the office I just wanted to make her feel better as fast as I could. I remembered the doctor saying the peredizone will make feel the best so I gave it right away. FORCED it down her throat along with a pill that would make her want to eat. As I looked over the other three bottles I remembered she said not to give one of them until tomorrow. I asked bud about and he said it was the last one we got. Good God that was the predizone!! Now I'm looking at mira who panting hard and her eyes looking back wildly. Frankinstein! What have I done? Poor Mira who hasn't slept in days is a zommie. Shell never sleep now and she's not. She does not look much better, she is not limping though and she did sniff at bushes a bit looking for mice and lizards. I asked if she wanted to go for a walk but she did not want to. Have any of you felt like you created a frankinstin? We are not doing chemo. We just wanted to give her the most good days possible. Thirty days is all. I still have to let her go. Will the Mira I used to know ever come to visit?

Altira

11-12-2010, 04:36 AM

Overt symptoms? What is it I'm looking for? She has all the symptoms I mentioned above. Is there something else?

(by the way... This site not only has wonderful people but the site itself runs very smoothly and quickly. Very user freindly. I'm impressed.)

frijole

11-12-2010, 08:25 AM

Still reading and sending you strength and support on this journey. I can offer you encouragement for Kira should cushing's be the dx. My dog Haley was diagnosed at 12 1/2 and I treated her for FOUR YEARS with lysodren. She passed away the end of May but not from Cushings - she was just very old.

It seems you have found a great new vet clinic that can handle Kira's health. Overt cushing's symptoms would be extreme water drinking and urinating in the house, losing hair/skin irritations, back leg weakness to name a few.

With all you have on your plate right now, please know that cushing's goes undiagnosed in many many dogs (including my Haley) for years and years and years. While not ideal, it is OK because you usually do not have to treat right away. So - it is OK to focus on Mira. If 30 days is what you have then I am sure you will make those 30 as comfortable as you can. Hug her often, and know you have absolutely done all that is humanly possible for her.

And yes, we will be here for you as you need us. More huge hugs, Kim

Altira

11-12-2010, 11:22 AM

"did not die of Cushings" that's comforting to know.

KIRA
Siberian Husky
10.5 yrs
10/29/10

ALK - 354 (10-150) high
ALT - 117 (5-107) high

LIP - 1474 (100-750) high

CHOL - 378 (112-328) high

MCV - 59 (60-77) low

That is the initial blood work.
We have an ultrasound behind us too. I cant recall the specifics right now but there is a tumor. Not giant like Miras.
Now we wait a week for her urine track infection to clear up. Then on to the next test.

Altira

11-12-2010, 11:30 AM

Because of the ultrasound is why ACC doctor is heading us that way.

Hi Janis,

Can you tell us why you think Kira may have cushing's? Cushing's is not a death sentence and with effective treatment, dogs can live out their natural life expectancy with a really good quality of life. My first cushdog is a rarity and was diagnosed at 3 years old. She is now 9 years old and still going strong. We think she had cushing's for at least before being diagnosed. My 2nd cushdog was a foster dog who we adopted because we knew he had cushing's. He had had the disease for a very, very long time and was a walking infection from head to tail, had very little fur and could hardly stand up due to severe muscle wasting. I've gotten estimates on his age of anywhere from 8 to 15 years old. He's been on treatment for three years and you'd never know he was the same pathetic dog that walked through our door in August, 2007. Whether a dog is diagnosed early or later in the disease, treatment can work miracles. I saw it happen twice. FYI, the object of treatment is to improve/resolve the symptoms so it is not recommended to treat a dog until the dog has overt symptoms.

Now that Kira may be cushingoid, please remember to get her records as well and post test results here.

Glynda

Altira

11-12-2010, 11:50 AM

Today is our 32 yr anniversary.

We have had huskies for 31 yrs. Five of them
Sigh, Sasha, Kodi, Kira, Mira
9/6/78 9/10/84 9/16/92
My September babies
6+10=16
Sigh + Sasha = Kodi
3/27/00 2/27/03
Kira and Mira both born on the 27th
(Kodi and Kira were related)
Any guess which is more important to me? dogs or husband? oh well I can't help it the dogs don't yell at me. dogs win

missbeagle

11-12-2010, 02:34 PM

Janis -

You can put Kira on milk thistle if you want to. The milk thistle is the cheap and that will help with the elevated liver enzymes. If you Google it a bit you will find information on milk thistle to help you get the right one. You can get some at the health food store. I'm not a vet tech, but although her liver enzynes are elevated, they are not super duper elevated.

Remember to give the antibiotics for the urinary tract infection with some food. Antibiotics are always absorbed better with food. :) I would assume they gave you Clavamox, which is an excellent broad spectrum antiobiotic. Also urinary tract infections are common in spayed females. My lab always gets Clavamox for her urinary tract infections.

Spend quality time with Mira and take lots of pics. I would spoil her rotten in every way possible for as much time as she has left. I would feed her anything she wanted to eat, even if it was ice cream and dog biscuits. Just make her as happy and content as you can.

The prednizone will help increase her appetite and might make her drink more too. Just symptoms of the pred to be aware of is all.

Just remember you have done NOTHING wrong with Mira. You shouldn't be kicking yourself in the bum for anything that you did or didn't do.

Oh yeah, and I don't always believe everything the vet tells me either. I do to a certain extent, but you know your dog better than anyone else on the planet. And yes, you are doing the rights things even now, you just don't know it.

Hugs and blessings to all three of you,

Gretchen and Rusty in NC

Altira

11-13-2010, 05:26 AM

"It seems you have found a great new vet clinic that can handle Kira's health. Overt cushing's symptoms would be extreme water drinking and urinating in the house, losing& hair/skin irritations, back leg weakness to name a few."

She drinks tons of water always has. Every now and then she pees in the house. More often she is wanting to go out every half hour and always seems real desperate! She had to have knee surgery on both back legs. ACC doctor said cushings can effect knee ligamants which is what happened to kira. She has never lost fur in an unnatural way. BUT she had knee surgery just 7 months ago and the fur on her back has not grown back at all!

Altira

11-13-2010, 06:50 AM

Gretchen -

Kira:
is taking Baytril 60s for her infection. The regular vet gave those to her. $$$$ expensive!!! ACC doctor was ok with that I guess. There hasn't been any giant water drinking since taking those.

This is what is keeping Mira with us:
This was devised by the ACCdoctor and adjusted at the cancer group in the same complex:
Currently she is taking at least 16 pills a day that consists of:
Prednisone
Neurontin (for spinal pain)
Tramadol (as much as 12 a day) for pain
Mirtazpine (so she will eat, works great!)
Metronidazole (for diarrhea)
Pepcid AC (for upset tummy)

I'm to add more Tramadol if she's in pain. She is taking like seven now. There are better pain pills but they are too hard on the liver. She was having a very hard time walking before this. I doubted she would ever go for a walk again. Yet yesterday morning Mira took ME for a long walk. Maybe two miles and she did not want to go home!!! No limping while walk or after it. We will go again when the sun comes up. She does have a coordination problem with the left front. She will hold it oddly. But she is placing it well when walking so far. I wish I could post pictures here and show you stuff. I measured her chest to see if the tumors are growing. She coughed oddly a bit ago. I half expected to see blood from the lung tumor. She's been up and around and following me today. Not great but... I'm not so sure shell make thirty days. When you think about the gaint tumors inside her, eating her up, its suprizing she is still here. I know i talked about the zommie thing. But today Mira seems more like Mira. And not a pill induced body. She got up just now and something snapped hope it was nothing The cancer doctor and I talked about when it time to go.

Ice cream??? Lucky dog! I have to be careful not to feed too many differant things. She has never changed food well. But we get lots of dog treats and top dollar chicken. I'm lucky I don't work. I can give all my attention to Mira. She is my very breath right now. And there are hugs for Kira too. Poor Kira she has to be locked outside sometimes so I can get food down Mira. When it comes to eating Kira is a Cushings dog all the way. I'm sure you all know how that is. She want everything!

addy

11-13-2010, 09:48 AM

Every day I have read your thread and every day I have heard the pain you suffer for your beloved dog.

I have not written because words have escaped me and I found myself wishing I could find a way to ease your mental anquish. Since I could not, I have found myself suffering with you.

My point is, you are not alone as I am sure you realize, we are all here for you.

The journey you are now on is indeed hard, but you will find the strength to travel it as you have so far.

Please know that we are here for you every day, every minute, so you really are not alone, ever!

Love,
Addy

Altira

11-13-2010, 10:36 AM

And yet more angels fly by....

Mira won't eat...
I took Mira and Kira for a walk. Something I didn't think I'd ever do again. Mira wanted to go. And keep going. We walk by the house, no keep going mom. So we keep going. That's what the cancer doctor said to do. If she wants to go go... For maybe an hour and a half we covered about three miles. Mira is still not wanting to stop but not as much as before. One minute later Mira is laying in her I hurt way. I pet her and she growls at me. Uh Ho. She refused a bite of chicken so I gave her yet another Tramadol. Half hour later she still won't eat. I think I'll call the cancer place. Make sure I'm doing the pills right.

missbeagle

11-13-2010, 11:37 AM

Janis -

Try some Parmesan cheese sprinkled on her food or some tuna fish. It makes things stinky. You can try burgers and rice too boiled on the stove and cooled down to eat. I make mine and warm in the microwave.

Baytril is a broad spectrum antibiotic. Kira should do well on that.

You can try pills in some cheese, sliced, cheese whiz, pill pickets, a piece of lunch meat. I always give mine with a chaser of treat to make sure it goes down.

We are all feeling your heartache today. You are not alone.

Gretchen

Squirt's Mom

11-13-2010, 12:01 PM

Hi Janis,

Please let us know what the vet says this morning. It sounds as if Mira is having a more and more difficult time finding happiness and comfort in her life. :(:(

We are with you, honey, and we do understand your anguish.

Many hugs and belly rubs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Altira

11-13-2010, 01:40 PM

New blood test for Cushing's:

Kira
Siberian Husky
10.5 yrs
11/11/10

ALK - 386 (10-150) high
ALT - 178 (5-107) high

CK - 209 (10-200) high

CHOL - 402 (112-328) high

Not sure why they did this one. But everything is a bit higher then it was two weeks ago. And "CK" is in there now. Any comments?

Squirt's Mom

11-13-2010, 01:53 PM

Hi Janis,

Those values are often elevated in cush pups but Kira's are not near as high as many we have seen. It isn't unusual to see ALKP values in the 1000's. CK is creatine kinase. Why is has elevated since the last test, I can't say. Hopefully someone has more info on this for you and I will be happy to do some research into it with you.

Has the vet mentioned doing any cushing's specific testing on Kira such as the UC:CR, LDDS, HDDS, abdominal ultrasound, or ACTH? While the CBC can give some indicators that there may be a problem like Cushing's, this test (the CBC) cannot diagnose it.

How is our Mira doing today?

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Altira

11-13-2010, 02:10 PM

Let me say this: (again sorry)
I do not believe that the one closest to the pet knows best! In fact I think they might know the worst. Small changes happen so slow that we don't even realize it's happened. Many times it's Bud who tells me something is wrong. I think it is wrong to expect this person to know when it's time to go just because they are always with the dog. It's damn crewl to expect it of them too. As if things aren't bad enough already. There should be clear signs laid out so this poor person is not trying to dysifer every move. I think taking pictures can help to see changes by comparing them. Those small changes are easier to see. Further more I think the right time to go is when this person is ready, not the dog. We have to keep living. And if we aren't ready.. feelings can go on forever. Well I hope you can understand that. We have to be certian we got every good moment there was. Some people send them away early, that's fine, some just let the die naturaly. That's fine too.

The cancer doctor said after 2to4 days of no good moments at all. Or when nothing helps. Or when a dog does not want to go for a walk. Or won't eat. For me it's when a dog can no longer stand up. Not long after that. That is way too long I know and I always feel bad about it and horribly selfish. But thats when I'm sure. That's when I'm able to give in and not freak out with uncertainty. But really we'll find out for certain pretty soon. I always hold on too long. My biggest fear is they will start crying, I'd never get that out of my head.

My mom says dogs hide their pain for fear the other dogs would kill them and eat them. It all goes back to when dogs were wild. Makes perfect since to me.

I didn't have a clue pretty Mira I swear I didn't!

Squirt's Mom

11-13-2010, 02:42 PM

Hi Janis,

I don't understand your reasons for re-posting this heart-breaking post. :confused: It was hard enough to read the first time and I really do think we all heard you then. Is this in response to something that has been said since you first posted it?

I realize you are out of your mind with grief, guilt, and worry but we are really trying to help you and your baby girls.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Altira

11-13-2010, 02:47 PM

Kiras ultra sound and spot on symptoms has made them pretty certain. They will do more tests four days after we finish Kiras meds for the infection. They have me set for a Cushings consultation at the same time.

I don't know it depends on Mira. If she's here you won't be able to pry me away from her. Bud pointed at her a moment ago and said she's sleeping. She was. She ate a little while ago.

Squirt's Mom

11-13-2010, 03:17 PM

Thanks, Janis. Your vets are right in wanting to wait for Kira's infection to clear up before starting the Cushing's testing. Any stress, internal or external, can affect the results of these tests so the healthier and calmer the pup is the better. Keep in mind that Cushing's is a slow progressing condition. ;)

I am glad to hear that Mira ate a bit and that she is able to rest. :) I hope the rest of her day is good.

Of course, Mira is the one who needs your attention most right now and being by her side is where you belong every second you can.

Keep your chin up!
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

PS... a belated Happy Anniversary to you and Bud! 32 years is wonderful!

Altira

11-13-2010, 03:35 PM

The weirdest thing happened last night...

Mira took me and Kira for the longest walk last night. We left the house at about five am this morning. It was still dark out. And quiet. Everyone still in bed. We walked almost to Tustin and turned around just before it. We are walking real slow. *From behind me I hear a mans voice. I didn't understand what he said. He was on a bicycle on the other side of the street. Going fast!! He zipped by and behind him came these two dogs. Off the leash, running fast!!! These dogs looked like nothing I'd ever seen before. Beautiful goldish white that seemed to light up behind this man. Beautiful runners. It looked like a scene from a movie! I swear it did not look real! The dogs stayed focused on their master. They had to know we were there. Our dogs saw them. They seemed to wind in-between all the cars parked on the street. Coming in and out of view. Running free. WOW, WHAT WAS THAT? Dogs from heaven touch down on earth and run past us.*

They were slightly taller then our dogs. Shaped like huskies but very lean. Their thick fur seemed to fly behind them.*

I walk the streets around here in these last weeks and I ask for answers. Why? And I find nothing. And sometimes odd things happen.. And I wonder.*

Janis

Altira

11-13-2010, 11:23 PM

Mira ate like a real champ a bit ago. 50% canned dog food and 50% chicken. Bless her heart. I hope it doesn't hurt her belly processing all that food at once. I didn't expect her to eat the whole thing. I worry far too much. Her panting woke me up many times last night. But she stayed with me. My bed buddy. Kira sleeps in her own room. Yes Kira has her own room. Miras window is in there too. We sleep during the day. Its so quiet and peaceful at night.

Bud says I should take the dogs for a walk at the same time same place and see if the man and his dogs go by again. I might.

Altira

11-14-2010, 04:46 AM

A CUSHING'S REPORT:

I listened to the recording of the ACC doctor telling me about Kiras ultrasound. Here is some of what I'm hearing this time:

She has a very small mass in one of her adrenal glands. Some dogs aren't effected by this. There is a mass off the back side of it. It can be cancer. It usually is cancer but it doesn't appear to be evading anything right now. They usually grow very slowly and could take a year to get twice this size. If it's producing ???? then you get the symptoms of Cushings. (Kira has all the symptoms) It can be removed but she needs to be tested. If it were her dog she would not remove it knowing it may never be a problem. It should be watched via ultrasound. If it changes then you remove it. It's not real bad but she would need treatment for it. And we could see the symptoms of cushings reversed including her fur growing back.

Other concerns:
(1)There is a heart murmur that on a scale of 1 to 6 in loudness its about a 2. One side maybe slightly enlarged. (she said a little more on that but I'll move on)

(2) The liver looks ok. There are no masses there. But it appears to be braking down. We may need to find out what is going on with that too.

My thoughts:
I'm just glad that I don't have another terminally ill dog that's going to die soon and there is nothing we can do. Kira has a chance. Hopefully she will respond well. But I am very concerned that her most resent blood test shows even more elevated numbers. It looks like a big increase to me in the span of just two weeks.

My other concern:
How is she going to handle the loss of Mira. She will be effected in some way. They always are. She lost Kodi when she was three. And carefree Kira left with him. A sadness that never left her. When I took both dogs for a walk. Kira was very good about walking slow bless het heart. She looked over at Mira a bunch of times with great interest seeming concerned. What's wrong Mira?

Squirt's Mom

11-14-2010, 06:01 PM

Hi Janis,

Just dropping in to say hi and that I hope you had a good day with both your girls.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Altira

11-14-2010, 10:47 PM

Thanks, yes we are doing well here. Mira is responding to the meds and we are still at the low end of possibilities with that. Her liver is functioning, she breaths well, she is young and the rest of her organs are good. Who knows maybe shell make two months. I think for certian she will have several good days right now. I know other people need you too. I'll be sure to let you know when there is a change. And I'll be sure to check in incase someone posts here. I'm more greatful then I can say!

Oh would you please change the thread title? We are not doing chemo. I won't put her or us thru it.

frijole

11-14-2010, 11:00 PM

Thanks for the update. I will change the thread title.

Meanwhile please know that alot of us are reading and sending our best wishes every day even if we aren't posting. Hugs to dear Mira. Kim

jrepac

11-14-2010, 11:45 PM

Enjoy every minute with Mira and spoil her rotten...I know I would :)

Altira

11-15-2010, 07:55 AM

She panted like a maniac all day today. Actually she kept waking me up panting even before that.. Panting pretty hard too. It's scary. Was up to 156 breaths per minute and shallow. It's 40 now. I don't think we'll walk today. She ate well enough though.

Altira

11-15-2010, 08:28 AM

Kira is acting oddly. It could be sadness or maybe she's tired. Thats what it looks like. Normally anytime I go into the kitchen she comes right in behind me looking all hopeful. Now she doesnt bother to even get up! I'm worried about her. I haven't seen those bright eyes in days. Is she upset that Mira is getting so much attention? Is she upset that I put her outside when Mira eats? Does she know something is wrong with Mira? Or god forbid is it Cushings kicking in? Or worse?

Sorry I was going to try to be brave today but it didn't work...

Squirt's Mom

11-15-2010, 08:32 AM

Mornin' Janis,

Thanks for the update and glad to hear that Mira is still eating some and finding some joy in her life. :)

Last Dec. we had a senior baby who had been ill for some time with something the vets couldn't really name or get a handle on. She would get better then get worse again. She woke up one weekend morning and we knew that was all she had to give. Unfortunately, we couldn't get her to the vet for the next 2 days due to the Holidays so we devoted that time to our Ruby Dooby Doo. She got to eat anything she wanted, as much as she wanted, whenever she wanted; family came to visit with her and give her lovin' and treats; when we moved to another room, she was carried in there with us if she couldn't make it on her own so she was never by herself; she loved being brushed and her coat was shining at the end of those two days. Ruby left us knowing she was so very much loved. Those were hard days for us humans who loved her but it was nothing less than she deserved for all she had given. I, and many others here, can empathize with you in this time with Mira.

Please keep the posts coming on both your babies. As much as you may think others need us, we need to hear from you! ;):) In fact, I am apt to come looking for you if you don't check in fairly often! :eek::p Scary thought, huh? :D

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Squirt's Mom

11-15-2010, 08:45 AM

Altira

11-15-2010, 10:01 AM

Hi sweetie,

If Mira and Kira are close or bonded, then it is possible that Kira is picking up on Mira's distress and the changes in Mira caused by her illness. Since you are with them both all the time, Kira could be picking up on your distress as well if she is bonded to you as I'm sure she is.

One of the signs of Cushing's is lethargy and a loss of interest in things, a kind of pulling away, at times. Squirt had started sleeping more and she would go "hide" under furniture to spend her time. She wouldn't show the connection and need to be with me like she used to as much. If cortisol is running wild in their systems it can throw off the circadian rhythms keeping them from resting well at nite. Cortisol is normally released in quantity in the early part of the day and as the day passed, that level drops allowing other chemicals to step up causing our bodies to relax and sleep. In Cushing's, the cortisol level doesn't drop like it normally would but is continually released, making a restful nite difficult to achieve.

Keep an eye on her, as I know you do like a hawk, and let us know if you see anything else that is disturbing for you.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Can anything be done for this? The ACC doctor spoke of medication. Does it work?

You know Kira just had TTA surgery done on her knee 7 months ago. Recovery is like 12 to 18 weeks long. Kira got ALL my attention for that time and well beyond it. Me and Mira slept on the floor by her confinment area for weeks! At first I was just walking Kira everyday and poor Mira had to stay behind. They cut a piece of bone off and reposition it and you have to wait for the bone to grow back. The leg is very fragile at first. Then finally I was able to handle both dogs on a walk. That was not so long ago. Kira was used to getting most all of the attention until about a month ago. If that is what she is reactating to then it took her long enough. I'm thinking it's something else. The twinkle has gone out of her eyes! Kira doesn't go into hiding much. She and Mira trade off for the spot beside me. Her sudden lack of interest in food worries me. Normally she hops around all excited. And what about the rise in her blood test?

Mira is getting all the peanut butter with her zillion pills. Kira is taking pills too but.... I don't know. I can easily see the light going out in Kira's eyes when Mira is gone. Hell I can see mine doing the same thing. I need Kira's bright eyes so much. Those bright blue/brown eyes. Those eyes told me she would make it thru that long surgery. Both dogs are laying behind me right now. Kira's breathing is very noise. She barks and runs in her sleep all the time.

Take a look at the first clip in this video and you'll see what I mean about her bright eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-Rfcg7n_iY

Janis

Altira

11-15-2010, 01:16 PM

Took some pictures of Mira this morning. (Below is a direct link.) Somebody needs to pull her socks up! The one in the kitchen... does she look like she's in pain to you? There is one of Kira in there too.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/album.php?albumid=268

frijole

11-15-2010, 01:53 PM

Nope - to me she looks tired/sleepy. Keep in mind she's on some meds that will make her this way. In the other shots I could not tell anything is wrong at all. She is really beautiful. So is Kira.

Altira

11-16-2010, 05:28 AM

I took Mira for three really slow walks today. She looked around at anything, and everything. She isn't eating well today. So I tried stuffing a kong toy with peanut butter. That worked! Cheered her right up. Way more then the walks. She spent a good twenty minutes licking it out with gusto! I have it on video too. (In the mean time Kira gets heavier and heavier.) I haven't seen her on the pillow in weeks either. I think we'll have peanut butter every day...

Altira

11-16-2010, 06:03 AM

Nope - to me she looks tired/sleepy. Keep in mind she's on some meds that will make her this way. In the other shots I could not tell anything is wrong at all. She is really beautiful. So is Kira.

You are right... I'm panicing. Poor thing, I'm going to kill her off with pain killers. Everything looks like pain to me. It's just the way she lays on her front leg. She looks all crunched up. I need to remember that about the meds. Bud mentioned that too when I complained that she didn't wag her tail when I asked if she wanted to go for a walk.

Pain:Sometimes when I touch her she growls at me. I'm calling that one pain. Right? Especally if she's not moving. Whining is a totaly unrelable clue. Huskies whine all the time. And pant.

Good Stuff:Following me. Eating. Laying belly up. Looking out the window. Crousing around the back yard. Fur standing on end when Kira gets to go for a walk and she doesn't! (She is so funny.) Showing interest in anything. Dreaming.

I'm going to try to video how she breaths sometimes. It's scary to watch.

Anyway, thank you for looking at the pictures. Your thoughts helped a lot. I never dreamed there was anything wrong with her either.

Altira

11-16-2010, 06:33 AM

Getting Mira's Meds Right:
They tell me it's up to me to adjust Mira's pain meds to whats best for her and adjust the dosage accordingly. Normaly I don't see any pain from my dogs so I rarely give them any. (As I understand it, Cushing's meds are pretty much the same way. Owners just have to know. Imagine what a disaster I'll be at that!)

Does anyone know of, or ever used Neurontin (Gabapentin)? For pain.

I'm supost to figure out which one works better for Mira. Tramadol or Gabapentin. Or a combination of the two. I think the Gabapentin might work better for her, but I read that it can trigger seisures and is really hard on the liver. The doctors say the Tramadol would be better but it makes her so dopy. It makes her look like living is just no fun anymore.

Any thoughts or comments on that?

Squirt's Mom

11-16-2010, 11:34 AM

Hi Janis,

Yes, I would say the growling at being touched is quite possibly a pain response. The touch itself may not hurt but she may be anticipating a move that will cause her to hurt more, so she growls to tell you, "Don't you dare!" ;)

Loss of appetite, lack of interest, removing themselves from their family, constant licking at a certain area, as well as the panting and whining, can all be indicators of pain in our babies. Since they can't say, "Hey, that last pill has worn off and I need more", we have to decide that for them based on their behaviors. SUCKS, huh? I think if it were me, I would give a pain pill anytime she seemed uncomfortable...trying my best not to OD her yet provide her some relief. Start with the schedule the vets recommended - 1 every 6 hrs or whatever. If that didn't seem to be enough to control her pain, I would go to 1 every 5 hours, then every 4 hours and so on. Start keeping a little diary of when you give the pill so you have some idea of how much she is getting and how often.

Gabapentin...ahhhh, a wonder drug in my personal arsenal! I take it for neuropathy and it does wonders without making me dopey! In fact, it works when narcotics won't for this type pain. One of our members used Gabapentin for her baby, Nike, and said it helped a great deal. When our Ruby was fighting her last battle I gave it to her as well and it did help with her pain and discomfort a bit. Ruby's days were limited at the time I started her on it so I don't know what the long-term benefit would have been for her. However, Nike was on it for quite some time with positive results for her.

I don't see how the Gabapentin could hurt to try and see if it helps. You might find that one works better during the day and one better at nite, or using them both at nite and one during the day. The brand name for Gabapentin is Neurontin, BTW.

Something else you might look into is acupuncture. It won't cure her but it might help with her pain level. Just a thought!

Hugs and belly rubs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Altira

11-16-2010, 03:42 PM

Help. She has been panting for what feels like hours. I gave her a "gab" about two hours ago. I gave her a Tramadol just now.

Altira

11-16-2010, 03:55 PM

Ok I read your post now Leslie. Mira has oddly stopped panting. So you think I should try the "gab" instead if she starts up agian? Or stop panicing? Or give every hour until she stops or drops dead? She panted a lot like this yesterday too. It's not the same gentle pant she did have. You can here this one. She won't eat anything. She still has stopped. That last pill could not of taken effect yet.

Altira

11-16-2010, 04:03 PM

Am I going to kill her with my panic? Fortunitly she doesn't seem effected by my crying. The doctor said she would have hot and cold spells.

Altira

11-16-2010, 04:09 PM

I have been keeping a diary on her even before I found out it was cancer. Every half hour every five minutes. Ok she's panting again and moved away from me.

Squirt's Mom

11-16-2010, 04:10 PM

Altira

11-16-2010, 04:13 PM

Looking for a cooler spot. It's not warm where she was. Kiras in her spot now. Could the drugs be making her hot? Like the anti diarrhea med? She had one of those at 9am. Still panting. Cackling. Now stopped. It doesn't sound urgent. Maybe I'll try to go back to sleep.

Altira

11-16-2010, 04:22 PM

She eat a ton yesterday but very little today

Squirt's Mom

11-16-2010, 04:32 PM

Yes, the meds could be making her feel warmer than usual causing her to seek out cool spots to lay. Tramadol is the human drug Ultram and I can't take it. It makes me vomit convulsively for hours after just one pill! :eek:

Glad to know she has eaten some today. Fluctuation in her appetite is not surprising either. The meds for one thing. So as long as she eats some, that's good.

Go get a nap...sweet dreams.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Altira

11-16-2010, 04:33 PM

Hey sweetie,

How long ago did you give the gab? Have you given Tramadol since giving the gab?

Honey, there is only so much you are going to be able to do for her pain and you are working hard to help her. Give the meds time to kick in and maybe she will be able to rest a bit.

With the masses on the liver and chest, it is expected that she will pant a great deal. Her lungs are being compressed, making it harder for them to work properly. Accelerated breathing is going to make her heart work harder so you will see an increase in heart beats as well. All of this is to be expected so try not to let it get to you so badly. I know how hard that is to do. :(

Has she eaten anything today?

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

All of that makes since. Likey this is how it will be maybe. Thank you. She's been quiet for about ten minutes the Tramadol must have kicked in. The Gab didnt work then? Or maybe the combination did? Or maybe the spell past? Pluse is 80 I think or that might be resperation it hard to tell her chest is bouncing so.

Altira

11-16-2010, 04:38 PM

She doesn't look stressed. She isn't growling when I touch her now. Still not panting but she looks like she's going to. It's scary watching her chest. I know Pluse of eighty is ok. I try to sleep thank you

Altira

11-16-2010, 07:06 PM

I'm drowning here, please.
Anyone....
I don't think I can...save myself.

Just song lyrics

I had to go out for a minute. When I got back the "Welcome Committee" was at the door waiting for me. <smile>

Squirt's Mom

11-16-2010, 07:21 PM

A welcoming committee is always a happy sight! :D

frijole

11-16-2010, 08:10 PM

Sending warm thoughts and love from Nebraska! Hang in there - I know it is tough. Just love her. That's what she needs. Just love. xoxoxo Kim

Altira

11-16-2010, 08:11 PM

So is asking to eat and then licking the bowl clean! Canned dog food mixed with chicken and chicken broth too. At least a cup and a half of that. I'm so proud of her. She was looking out the window too. Still panting off and on but much less often. Thank you so much for saving me today. The cancer doctor is supost to call me tomorrow and talk about the meds.

marie adams

11-16-2010, 09:59 PM

Hi There,
So glad Mira is eating and doing somewhat better---Yeah!!!!:)

Hang in there you are doing everything you can for her and she knows it because they have good senses; so take care of yourself also!! :)

Squirt's Mom

11-17-2010, 06:26 PM

Hi Janis,

How are your girls doing today? I hope they, and you, had a better day today after a good nites rest.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Altira

11-18-2010, 05:36 AM

I talked to the cancer doctor tonight. I actually fell out of bed when she called trying to get to the phone. Thank goodness Mira wasn't laying there at the time!

Anyway I had wanted to talk to her for days. She was real sweet and answered the zillion questions I had faxed her. I was concerned that Mira might suddenly not be able to breath and all this panting she was doing. She said the one lung could give out and I might not even know it. I told her Mira had not seemed distressed at all. She said to watch for pale gums. The panting hasn't gotten worse and it's mostly just intermitant. Huskys pant just naturally too. She said it's hard to pin point what panting means.

We talked about the pain meds. She said she liked the medication schedule I had put together which looks like this:

6pm. 1/2 pred 1 met 2 gab 1 tram 1 pep
11pm 1 tram 1 mirt
4am 1/2 pred 2 gab 1 tram 1 pep
9am 2 tram 1 met

I adjust this all the time usually adding more tram in-between.

But we desided to cut the first three tram doses down to 1/2 because I suspect she doesn't needed so much and I might be mistaking her sedation for depression or unhappiness or worse. It could what sets me into fits of crying because things seem so poor. Last night I had not given her any pain killers for 10 hours straight and she seemed plenty comfortable enough. It's all a crap shoot really.
She said I could cut back on the predizone now. But to me it seems like it helps the most. So she said it was fine if I left it as is or even increase it by 1/2 pill if I want but to talk to her if I want to do more than that.

She was really pleased that Mira likes her walks so much. Even though Mira seems to have a little pain afterwards she says keep doing it. A LOT!

She was also pleased with how much Mira is eating. I have desided to focus on the total amount she eats in one day rather then falling apart when she refuses to eat. At the end of the day she has done well. Mira has never been a big eater. The highlight of her day seems to be the peanut butter in the kong toy. She thought that was wonderful and i should keep doing that.

In summary Miras eating seems to tell us the biggest story. If breathing gets that bad or the liver gives out Mira will most likely stop eating. She had said before that 2 to 4 days of nothing good then it's time to go. But she said Miras current condition seems very good. It was nice to hear that from a cancer specalist.

You know I stopped in at a cancer forum and told them of Mira and right off the bat they are telling me to have pitty on Mira and let her go. I'm not going back there. Little Mira is pearing at me from over the coffee table right now. Her bright eyes tells me she doesn't have a clue. If she knows then she currently doesn't want to go. I make a sound and her eyes grow bigger. Peanut butter maybe? Yes Mira we can do that. And a walk soon too.

labblab

11-18-2010, 08:29 AM

Janis, I am so glad that you had such a good talk with the cancer specialist!! It sounds as though she has given you a lot of good feedback, and I'm hoping it will allow you to breathe a little easier for the time being. All this has come up so quickly and has been such a horrible shock to have to deal with. But it sounds as though you're settling into a bit of a routine now. And that is giving both you and Mira some quality "time-out." I've got all fingers crossed that you'll continue to have a number of overall good days. Thanks so much for this report.

Ongoing hugs,
Marianne

Squirt's Mom

11-18-2010, 05:22 PM

Hi Janis,

I've been out of pocket all day and was so glad to read your update when I got back! :D It sounds like you and the cancer doc had a good, positive, productive chat that has helped you breath a little easier and that is wonderful. It also sounds like she agrees with me in that you are doing a fine job with Mira's care. ;)

That is a crying shame you were greeted in such a manner on the cancer group you checked out. They could have taken a bit more time to learn about you and Mira then perhaps they would have gained more understanding and compassion. The day may come when I myself tell you it is time to let her go but, if it does, every word will be said with love, anguish, tears, empathy, and heart-ache because your precious Mira has wormed her way into a special spot in my heart.

But, today I am very happy to know you are feeling better about her and that she is continuing enjoy her life. :D:D This is what counts! :D

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

jrepac

11-18-2010, 05:43 PM

Enjoy the time with Mira as long as she is able to enjoy each and every day with you as well! Anyone who tells you differently, well, pay no mind!

Jeff & Angel Mandy

Altira

11-19-2010, 06:08 AM

Thank you!

Kira goes to ACC's Cushings specialist today. I think they will do more tests. I know this was ment to also be a consolation appointment. I wish i was in a better frame of mind for this. Bud is going this time. He needs to understand what's happening with Kira. Hopefully my brother will have a chance to look at Kiras detailed records and give us an opinion.

Mira will be going with us. I'll likely have her checked out while we are there. She's been panting pretty heavy all day.

labblab

11-19-2010, 06:31 AM

Janis, good luck with the appointments today. I'm glad Bud will be going along. It always helps to have "four ears" to take in all the information. Plus, you're right, it will be important for him to understand any further recommendations that come from the vets.

Please give both girls big hugs for me, OK?
Marianne

Squirt's Mom

11-19-2010, 11:07 AM

Hi Janis,

Let us know what the vet says today about Kira and Mira. Taking Bud with you is a great idea! It always helped me to have someone or something with me to help me remember what was said. I get so bumfuzzled at times it ain't funny! :rolleyes::p

You're doing a great job, Mom! Hang in there!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

apollo6

11-19-2010, 02:44 PM

Will be praying for you and Milo.
Fight for as long as you can. Milo is.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Altira

11-19-2010, 05:25 PM

Altira

11-19-2010, 07:50 PM

Mira is home with us for right now.

addy

11-19-2010, 08:00 PM

You must be exhausted. I hope you and the pups are able to get some rest.

Hugs,
Addy

frijole

11-19-2010, 10:30 PM

They are suggesting surgery for Kira. Any comments on that?

Mira..... Pale gums. Might be bleeding her liver. There running tests$$$$ for what I'm not sure. May need a transfusion. Might give her another day. Another week. Another week of what? Bud said do it. Bud who hates pending money.

They are both staying here for at least eight hours. More when we get home.

Not sure how to comment on Kira because I don't know what surgery they are suggesting?

Glad you are all home. Update us when you have the strength. We understand. Still sending warm thoughts and best wishes. Kim

Altira

11-20-2010, 01:20 AM

Exhausted yes. I slept in the doggie pillows. Mira actully seems very good. No panting. She just had some chicken and a fist full of treats. Bud has gone off to get Kira. He wants to go atv riding with a freind. Leaving sunday and gone a couple days. I don't think he wants to be here when she goes. Great :(. I don't want her to go with a ruptured liver. They said it would be instantaneous. But might be a little bit of a struggle. Good God. Damn me to he'll if I let that happen. I was thinking maybe Monday or Tuesday I'd make an apointment for her and let her go. Shit! I pray we have a good non terrifying weekend but not too good. I have to let her go. I hope god has that much pitty on me.please stay with me.

Altira

11-20-2010, 02:35 AM

Kira : dexamethasone suppress 1pre/2 post 1
Dexamethasone injection 2nd/ml
Urinalysis IDEXX
Urine culture and MIC (cal micro)

Whatever that means - this is what they did today.

I asked them to do whatever was the best tests and would give us the fastest results. She said one test had to go to michagin and would take a week. The other will take a couple days. I recorded our conversation. I'll listen to it soon but I'm pretty sure the opperation would be to remove the one gland over her left kidney. The right side looks fine.

A lady was putting her pet to sleep in the room next to us today. I remember when we put our Sasha to sleep a horrible sound was coming out of my mouth. I couldn't stop it. I went to see her after she was gone. Finally 14 1/2 year old Sasha was at peace. She had suffered for months. Mira just 7 years old.... Who was running as fast as she could in the house and doing her patty cake like nut just weeks ago hasn't suffered so much. I don't want to remember her dead. I want to remember her alive and hopefully living the rest of her life running free alive and happy. You know?

I'm so tired.

addy

11-20-2010, 08:22 AM

Are they talking about removing an adrenal gland? The moderators will be along soon to comment. I believe if it is a tumor on an adrenal gland and they are able to remove it the dog no longer has Cushings. We have members who have had that procedure.

Sometimes some cannot be present when our pups have their final day. That does not mean the person loved their dog any less.

I am sorry you only had seven years to share. I sometimes feel robbed too, I have had my Zoe 3 years, we got her from animal control. She has been sick most of that time and now diagnosed with Cushings. I wonder why alot.

Grief is a strange process, first denial, then anger then acceptance. Anticipitory grief goes through the same stages.

We are here for you. I saw you were on line and i did not want you to feel alone.

Love,
Addy

Altira

11-20-2010, 09:05 AM

Thank you Addy

I managed to do a search here on surgery and found there has been some success with adrenal surgery. That was encouraging since I read elsewhere where it said it was the most difficult surgery they do on dogs and the survival rate wasnt so great. Lots of horrible things could happen post surgery. They did say that the other side looked ok. And the Cushings specialist seemed very confident. But I can't help feeling that they are just out for their Ginny pigs. They get to test out new things on our pets and it doesn't cost them a thing. I can't tell you how greatful I am for this forum. I hate to think how I'd be feeling right now with out you guys.

Mira laying beside me now. ( Kira unfortunately out in the rain.) I was hoping to get Mira to eat. She ate a few treats ant that's it. I've been so upset that I messed up her medications. I was trying to make an adjustment. The predasone was making her pant so much so I was trying to cut back as had been suggested anyway now. But I went too long inbetwwenn I think. Mira is starting to limp. So I quick gave her the pred and here came the heavy panting. At ACC they said that she was breathing fine so imnot so worried about the panting. But damn I didn't want to see the limp. The cancer doctor said she was doing that to compensate for the pain from thecancer. I haven't seen her walk since talking it.

The Tramadol dopes her up so much to me she looks like she's dying right in front of me.

I better let Kira in and dry her off. Miras not going to eat right now.

Altira

11-20-2010, 10:57 AM

"Grief is a strange process, first denial, then anger then acceptance. Anticipitory grief goes through the same stages."

Yes I keep thinking this is a mistake that it is another misdiagnosis. No something is horribly wrong. Her middle has grown an inch in just a few days. Then I feel so angry I just want to brake things. Then for a moment when I see her laying there panting looking miserable I tell her it won't be long now. But you forget the biggest killer of all right now, hope. Hope for a few more good moments. Hope whenyou see her licking up the peanut butter and now she's not limping. Now I fail. I was going to call and make that appointment. Awhile ago I told myself ok Monday, now it's Tuesday. No now it's I can't even pick up the phone.

Squirt's Mom

11-20-2010, 11:05 AM

Mornin' Janis,

It sounds like tests are indicating adrenal dependent hyperadrenocortisim (ADH). In simple terms this means there is a tumor on one of Kira's adrenal glands that is causing the Cushing's. Removal of the tumor means a cure just about every time! ;):D

It is a serious surgery but one that has been performed many, many times with success. Some pups have had both glands removed and do just fine with meds. Make sure the surgeon is Board Certified and that he has done this type surgery many times before with positive results.

I am so sorry Bud is running off and leaving you to face Mira's situation alone. :(:mad::( But then, some guys just don't want anyone to know just how badly things like this affect them, so they run away from the situation and do something "manly" hoping no one can see their pain. ;) If we were closer, I would be with you in person. Just know that I, and many others here, are with you in spirit every minute.

Love your sweet Mira every way you can, make every moment one she enjoys as much as she can, talk to her about the good days before she was sick so your memories of those times will be fresh in your mind. Write them down, make them tangible, if it helps you.

You don't have to be with Mira in those final moments if it is too much for you to watch. If that is not the image you want as your last one of her, then don't put yourself through it. There is no shame if you cannot be with her; I know Mira would understand.

And, Janis, above all else, keep this one thought at the forefront of all you do and think over the next few days. This unbearable step you are called on to take, the decision that will rip your heart out and leave you devastated...this is the greatest gift you could ever give Mira. There is no greater gift of love than this.

Many hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Altira

11-20-2010, 12:19 PM

Bud never wanted dogs. But we have had them our inter married life. I don't ask I just bring them home and he falls in love with them to. But he pretends he doesnt. These too, especaily Kira has really gotten to him. In the last few years he has alowed them to go places with us and is so very tolerant of my overly protective nature of them. No we can't stop here it's to hot to leave the dogs in the car. No we can't go there but we could go here instead where it's cooler. No I can't leave the dogs but you can go. I'm just so horrible that way. Sometimes I insist he goes with me to the vets and he does. Or like last night I asked him to go get Kira from ACC. I didn't want Mira bouncing around in the car. And there was no I would leave her... This man who never wanted dogs goes and gets our Kira. This man who knows there will always be dogs. My mom and my sister have offered to go with me but the only person I would want tobe there is bud. But i can forgive him this.

Have you ever heard of a liver rupturing and causing instant death? That's what they told me could happen. I've tried looking that up but didn't see anything to suggest instant death. I would just die if that happened.

Altira

11-20-2010, 12:25 PM

God I can't make that call. Mira starts to pant and I jump out of my skin! I need to go give her more pills. ....

Squirt's Mom

11-20-2010, 12:41 PM

Yeah...I'm also one to drag dogs home. ;) We are a package deal...love me, love my dogs! Maybe that is why it's just me and my babies! LOL :p

My guess on the liver rupturing is that the mass will grow to the point the organ can no longer contain it. A bit like putting too much air in a balloon...at some point it will burst simply because it cannot hold any more air.

I think it would be excruciatingly painful for Mira if the organ ruptured, and I hope your vet is right in that it would be quick if that happens. The pain all those fluids, enzymes, and who-knows-what-else flooding the rest of her body cavity could cause on top of the actual rupture is beyond comprehending. She doesn't deserve that ending...and you don't want to watch that happen, I know you don't. :(

Hang in there, sweetie. Take it minute by minute and remember you are not alone.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Altira

11-20-2010, 01:52 PM

Bud and I are watching her. We look for good signs. She stood up got a drink and shook. Not limping. Ate a fist full of treats. Following me. Gums are pinkish. Ears are pink. But her poop looks a bit yellow. All she has eaten is peanut butter. I doubt her regular vet is working today. We'll have to wait until Monday. I'm drinking some of Bud wine. I'll cry myself to sleep. Wine always makes me cry horribly. Maybe I'll get enough out to act .... I don't know. I have tobe ok with this. I got to get there. God helpme get there. My beAutiful baby girl. I'm sorry I'm so selfish. I don't want to let you go.

God this site is so forgiving. I hit the wrong buttons but my message is still there. So forgiving.

Mira was just barking in her sleep we think. I dont know it wasnt much. Sleeping that would be wonderful. God please help me.
I keep hitting the wrong button. Just like a nightmare

Altira

11-20-2010, 02:01 PM

God I have to let her go but she's not an old girl who has lived her life. She's not suffering horrible right now. But god she could be at any moment. How do you live with that. I can't find my way.

Altira

11-20-2010, 02:13 PM

Leslie. It's not right to loose a daughter. How could anything hurt worse then this. Trash can is filling up with klenex. She's up walking fine getting a drink. Will she let me live thru this? Will you?

Altira

11-20-2010, 02:41 PM

addy

11-20-2010, 02:43 PM

I am here, listening, I am here with you right now.

I watched my dad die from cancer. By the time he finally went for help, it was too late, end stage,nothing they could do. He was in hospital for a month. I tried so hard to get him home one more time. It was the hardest month of my life. I have post tramatic stress from the experience. In the end, I had to let him go.

God gives us the strength to face what we must face. We feel we can't bear the pain but we find the strength to go on. You willl find your strength. It will be there when you need it.

I wish I could help.

Love,
Addy

frijole

11-20-2010, 04:11 PM

ACC just called Kiras test got messed up. We need to take her back in pronto. I'm in great shape thank goodness Bud is here. One test result came thru they want to start her on something expecting that surgery will be done. The same doctor who did her two tta surgeries is being asked to do it. Im so glad. So I guess we are off to save our Kira. MirA she seems ok right now shell make the trip with us I'm sure of it. She would want this.

Pls let us know what test got messed up. The surgery you are talking about is a serious one and needs to be done by a VERY VERY experienced surgeon that has done a LOT of this type of surgery. I would not rush into it. Is there a reason they want to do this so quickly? Have they even done an ultrasound? Every adrenal case I remember they did ultrasounds to determine the location and size of the tumor - plus to confirm that it is in fact an adrenal tumor. You really do not need any additional stress right now.

Please tell us more when you can. Others that have been thru this surgery can offer you advice as well. Hugs, Kim

Altira

11-20-2010, 04:14 PM

Addy you are helping.

Altira

11-20-2010, 04:17 PM

Kim. We are still at ACC. But not much longer I think. Phenoxyhenzanine 10 mg they want her to take.

frijole

11-20-2010, 04:30 PM

Kim. We are still at ACC. But not much longer I think. Phenoxyhenzanine 10 mg they want her to take.

Looks like it is for high blood pressure as a result of an adrenal tumor? When you get home and have time please let us know what they are telling you. Also find out as much as you can about the surgeons experience, specficially how many of these exact surgeries he/she has done. Thanks!

Squirt's Mom

11-21-2010, 12:12 AM

Hey sweetie,

Just so you know I am here, too.

Give Mira and Kira a kiss right between the eyes from me, ok?

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Squirt's Mom

11-21-2010, 11:24 AM

Mornin' Janis,

How are you and the girls doing today? I hope ya'll are able to enjoy the day, maybe get out in the sunshine for while together, if nothing more than sitting around soaking up the rays.

I hope Bud enjoys his trip. It is deer and duck season in ARK right now so all the men packing up and leaving around here are going to the woods hunting. You will see trucks with four-wheelers in the bed along with all sorts of camping/hunting paraphernalia piled in around it being driven by guys with a harried look in their eyes and grinning like fools. Some of them even drool in anticipation. :rolleyes::)

Let me hear from you, ok?

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Altira

11-21-2010, 02:35 PM

Men, I swear! Thanks, that little hunting scene made me smile. Bud is gone but our neighbors said they would come anytime if I needed them. That's the woman I told you about Leslie. The one with the past like yours.

Mira has been starting to cough again. Whined a little which could e normal. She ate quite a bit earlier but just treats right now. That is how it been for some time, off and on. We all slept a lot last night. Bud might come home tomorrow night. Awe she just went belly up. She looks comfortable.

Kira - YES how many times has this doctor done this type of surgery and what has been his success rate? It's at the top of my list. Dr Sebestyen did Kiras first TTA surgery in 2008 and did the same thing to the other knee in May of this year. Except for the expected long recovery from this, Kira breezed through the first one. The second one at age ten was a bit harder on her. But god she was a champ about it, we both already new what to expect, and she was so good about it. They have to be confind for like 8 weeks! This is why we were out walking so much. I was out PROTECTING my investment! Nearly $7,500 invested in her back legs. She would not be walking today if we hadn't. They actually saw off a piece if the bottom leg bone, tilt it outward attach a metal cage at the top and screws at the bottom. Then you wait for the bone to fill in the gap. This takes the pressure off the knee ligaments that normally are always under stress in a dog. You know their knees are always bent unlike ours.

But! For some reason the fur on Kiras back this last time did not grow back! The doctor was very concerned about it and kept asking me to let him know about that. I wasn't concerned at all for some stupid reason. I thought when she blew her coat it would come in. Well neither has happen. Seven months have past and it still looks like they just shaved her yesterday. Except the skin has turned a bit dark. ACC thinks it's from Cushings. Would you agree on that?

Dr Sebestyen is located in the same complex as Advanced Cridical Care (ACC) in Tustin California. They have their own building called Veterinary Surgical Specialists (VSS).

I will now gather up what technical details on Kira I can get. I'm glad to have something to do and not be watching Mira constantly. She is drugged up and that always freaks me out.

Altira

11-21-2010, 05:05 PM

We tried a picnic outside Lesile. I was armed with pocket filled with treats. Mira excepted a couple then went off by herself so did Kira the other way. It was a lonely picnic. Mira used to stay right by my side even when it was 100 degrees out shed be laying on the hot cement beside me. Shed never go in the house without me. Oh well I hope it's just the meds. We'll try again later.

ADVANCED CRITICAL CARE & INTERNAL MEDICINE IDEXX LABORATORY SERVICES
TUSTIN, CA

NAME: BEGHTOL, KIRA
AGE: 10 YRS
SEX: F
SPECIES: CANINE
BREED: SIBERIAN HUSKY
COLLECTED: 11/19/2010
REPORTED: 11/20/2010

TEST PROCEDURES RESULTS REFERENCE RANGE UNITS

DEXAMETHASONE SUPPRESSION
PRE DEXAMETHASONE 5.1 1.0-6.0 UG/DL
POST 4 HR DEX 3.4 LESS THAN 1.5 UG/DL
POST 8 HR DEX 2.7 LESS THAN 1.5 UG/DL

LOW-DOSE DEXAMETHASONE DIAGNOSTIC INTERVALS (CANINE)
4 HOURS 8 HOURS INTERPRETATION
< 1 < 1 NORMAL
1.0-1.5 1.0-1.5 INCONCLUSIVE
>1.5 AND >50% >1.5 AND >50% CONSISTENT WITH HYPERADRENOCORTICISM
OF BASELINE OF BASELINE FURTHER TESTING REQUIRED TO
DIFFERENTIATE ADRENAL TUMOR FROM
PITUITARY-DEPENDENT
HYPERADRENOCORTICISM (PDH)
< 1.5 OR < 50% > 1.5 OR > 50% CONSISTENT WITH PITUITARY-DEPENDANT
OF BASELINE OF BASELINE HYPERADRENOCORTICISM (PDH)
< 1.5 OR < 50% > 1.5 OR < 50% CONSISTENT WITH PITUITARY-DEPENDANT
OF BASELINE OF BASELINE HYPERADRENOCORTICISM (PDH)
> 1.5 OR > 50% > 1.5 OR < 50% CONSISTENT WITH PITUITARY-DEPENDANT
OF BASELINE OF BASELINE HYPERADRENOCORTICISM (PDH)

HIGH-DOSE DEXAMETHASONE DIAGNOSTIC INTERVALS (CANINE)
4 HOURS 8 HOURS INTERPRETATION
< 1.5 OR < 50% > 1.5 OR > 50% CONSISTENT WITH PITUITARY-DEPENDANT
OF BASELINE OF BASELINE HYPERADRENOCORTICISM (PDH)
> 1.5 OR > 50% < 1.5 OR < 50% CONSISTENT WITH PITUITARY-DEPENDANT
OF BASELINE OF BASELINE HYPERADRENOCORTICISM (PDH)
< 1.5 OR < 50% < 1.5 OR < 50% CONSISTENT WITH PITUITARY-DEPENDANT
OF BASELINE OF BASELINE HYPERADRENOCORTICISM (PDH)
> 1.5 OR > 50% > 1.5 OR > 50% FURTHER TESTING REQUIRED TO
OF BASELINE OF BASELINE DIFFERENTIATE PDH FROM ADRENAL TUMOR

HYPERADRENOCORTICISM IS A CLINICAL DISORDER WITH CLINICAL SIGNS. IF THE ANIMAL HAS NO CLINICAL SIGNS,
WE DO NOT RECOMMEND TREATMENT. APPROXIMATELY 5% OF DOGS WITH HYPERADRENOCORTICISM WILL
HAVE NORMAL LOW DOSE DEXAMETHASONE SUPPRESSION RESULTS. CONVERSELY, SOME ANIMALS WITH
SIGNIFICANT NONADRENAL DISEASE MAY FAIL TO ADEQUATELY SUPPRESS ON THIS TEST.

URINALYSIS
COLLECTION METHOD CYSTOCENTESIS
COLOR YELLOW
CLARITY CLEAR
SPECIFIC GRAVITY 1.022
GLUCOSE NEGATIVE NEGATIVE
BILIRUBIN NEGATIVE NEGATIVE
KETONES NEGATIVE NEGATIVE
BLOOD NEGATIVE NEGATIVE
PH 7.0
PROTEIN NEGATIVE NEGATIVE-TRACE
WBC NONE SEEN 0-5 HPF
RBC NONE SEEN 0-5 HPF
BACTERIA NONE SEEN HPF
EPT CELL 1+ (1-2) HPF
MUCUS NONE SEEN
CASTS NONE SEEN HPF
CRYSTALS NONE SEEN HPF

TEST PROCEDURES RESULTS REFERENCE RANGE UNITS
OTHER AMORPHOUS DEBRIS PRESENT
UROBILINOGEN NORMAL
Triostane 80mg is what they want to put her on right away with one blood results still pending and weither or not surgery is done. I think she said. They will send me this by mail.

Her bp was 220. I have a script for the bp meds. Should I go get that right way? She said it wasn't as important as the above. She also said to watch for dizzyness or weekness and if so to discontinue it. To me that sounds like thier not sure she needs it. What do you think should I do it or not?

Altira

11-21-2010, 05:13 PM

She scared me just now. She was rolling around on the floor whining slightly. That damn pounding chest is so scary to watch. I went to the front door and told her I was leaving without her she better come. She didn't. I looked at her gums they are still pale but pinkish. I got the kong toy and said peanut butter? Ok now she's on her feet with interest and is currently very much enjoying that. Was the little minx just bored? She's not supost to scare me while bud is gone!!!

Altira

11-21-2010, 05:26 PM

PETER SEBESTYEN, DMV, DIPLOMATE ACVS

Doctor of Veterinary Medicine - University of Veterinary Sciences, Budapest 1989
Internship - Sonora Veterinary Surgery and Oncology, Arizona 1995
Residency - North Carolina State University 2000

Dr. Sebestyen graduated from the University of Veterinary Sciences in Budapest, Hungary in 1989. Following his graduation, he underwent two years of post-graduate training in anatomical pathology. In 1991, he moved to British Columbia and joined a general small animal practice. Early in his career as a veterinarian in clinical practice, he developed a strong interest in surgery and decided to pursue further academic training in this field.

In 1995 he joined Sonora Veterinary Surgery and Oncology in Scottsdale, Arizona and completed a rotating small animal internship. He enrolled in a 3-year residency program in small animal surgery at the NCSU College of Veterinary Medicine. After completing his residency, he joined the faculty of the CVM as a clinical assistant professor from 2000-2001. He also held a research position at the Department of Anesthesia at Duke University Medical Center in Durham NC and participated in microvascular surgical research. Dr. Sebestyen became board certified by the American College of Veterinary Surgeons in 2001. Prior to his relocation to California, he has been in a small animal surgical referral practice in North Carolina.

During his residency and his academic and referral surgery positions, he completed several research projects, gave numerous seminars, and participated in advanced surgical courses. His research interests include total hip replacement, spinal biomechanics and tibial plateau leveling osteotomy. Dr. Sebestyen has a wide range of clinical experience in veterinary surgery from academic and private practice settings. His clinical interests are surgical oncology, reconstructive and microvascular surgery

frijole

11-22-2010, 09:58 AM

Ok I got all the recent detailed results I emailed it to you but I'm not sure it's readable.

Pre Dexamethasone 5.1 1.0-6.0
Post 4 hour dex. 3.4 less then 1.5
Post 8 hour dex. 2.7 less then 1.5

There is a bunch of stuff after that too.

Collection cystocentesis
Color yellow
Clarity clear
Specific gravity 1.022
Glucose negative
Bilirbin neg
Ketones neg
Blood neg
Ph 7.0
Protein neg
WBC none
Rbc none
Bacteria none
Ept cell 1+(1-2)
mucus none
Casts none
Crystals none

Other:
Amorphous debris present
Urobiltnogen normal
(did I miss anything?)

Triostane 80mg is what they want to put her on right away with one blood results still pending and weither or not surgery is done. I think she said. They will send me this by mail.

Her bp was 220. I have a script for the bp meds. Should I go get that right way? She said it wasn't as important as the above. She also said to watch for dizzyness or weekness and if so to discontinue it. To me that sounds like thier not sure she needs it. What do you think should I do it or not?

Thanks for these numbers on Kira. Like I said, they are probably concerned about the high blood pressure coming from an adrenal tumor. Yes that bp reading is HIGH. I wouldn't hold off on getting her the meds for that. The dizziness and weakness she described to you are POSSIBLE SIDE EFFECTS from the drug they are recommending. I know this because I googled it.

Couple other questions -

1. Has Kira had an ultrasound to take a look at the size and location of that adrenal tumor? IMHO this absolutely should be done prior to any surgery because it gives the surgeon a better idea of how to approach the surgery and frankly the likelihood of success. If too risky then you could opt for treating with lysodren or trilostane. I am not sure why they are recommending trilo right now unless it is to give her some relief while you decide on surgery?

What are the docs telling you? Without this info we don't have the full picture and so it is hard to help.

2. The vet seems experienced at surgery from the bio you posted. I did not see anything specific to this type of surgery and you will probably only get the answer by having discussions with him directly. It is OK to ask him - he will understand. Just like if you were having heart surgery you would want to know that your surgeon has done a lot of them successfully..

Sorry you are dealing with alot at the same time. Hugs, Kim

Buffaloe

11-22-2010, 10:03 AM

I see that Dr. Sebestyen did his internship at Sonora Veterinary Surgery and Oncology in Phoenix, AZ. It is now called Sonora Veterinary Specialists and there are two locations in the Phoenix area. It is a wonderful facility and has a great reputation here. The owner is a fantastic surgeon and performed my Shiloh's adrenalectomy in 2006. I have to believe that Dr. Sebestyen received some great training while at Sonora.

Ken

Squirt's Mom

11-22-2010, 10:39 AM

Hi Janis,

How is Mira this morning? How are you?

The results on Kira aren't clear to me, but that's not surprising! :rolleyes: It might help you could post all the info given with these numbers:

Pre Dexamethasone 5.1 1.0-6.0
Post 4 hour dex. 3.4 less then 1.5
Post 8 hour dex. 2.7 less then 1.5

There is a bunch of stuff after that too.

That "other stuff" might help. ;) And, of course, I am sure others will be along who can tell you much more about what all that will mean than I. :)

Her specific gravity of 1.022 appears to be normal to me. According to the Merck Veterinary Manual, 9th Edition, the normal range for canine specific gravity is 1.001-1.070. Did they do a blood panel, what is often called a CBC, on Kira? There are several values from this test that are also used as indicators for Cushing's.

I'm not sure I agree with the vet concerning which is the most important to focus on for Kira. In my simple mind, the BP needs attention now. But what do I know?! :p

The vet is right in that the Trilo can cause some of the signs mentioned to watch for, but that is just part of the treatment with either drug, Trilo or Lyso. INSIST they give you some prednisone to have on hand just in case Kira needs it. This is not an option - it is a necessity but some vets are loath to give it when pups are on Trilo because they hold to the false belief that Trilo is so much safer than Lyso that the pred isn't needed. The fact is, both drugs can have serious consequences if the diagnosis isn't right, the dose isn't right, and/or the pup isn't properly monitored. So pred is something a parent needs to have on hand with either treatment. ;)

I am curious...are they wanting to treat Kira's adrenal tumor until it is removed or are they going to try the treatment path instead of surgery?

When you talk of Mira going "belly up", that sounds so cute! The pics of her playing patty cake are too precious. I know it is so very hard, almost impossible, to look at her and accept how sick she is. My heart just aches for you, Janis. You asked if you would be allowed to live after Mira has to leave us... yes, honey, you will. Mira needs you to, Kira needs you to, Bud needs you to, I need you to, we all do, Janis. Dear god, I know it seems you won't be able to take that next breath - how could you, right? It seems impossible. But you will take that next breath, and the one after, and the one after. In time, those breaths will stop being such a struggle and you will look up to find you have breathed your way through many days. It won't be easy, sweetie, I won't lie to you about that. It will be absolute Hell at times, but you will survive in spite of all the pain. You will.

I am so glad your neighbor is willing to help you if needed. It was breaking my heart to think you would have to face these days with no one to hold your hand or wipe your tears. Give her a hug from me for helping you and from one mom to another who understands. :( We are all three moms who understand, huh?

Big hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

labblab

11-22-2010, 10:42 AM

Janis, thanks so much for posting Kira's test results here. You're right -- this way they are much easier to read than from the scanned version.

Also, I am wondering if you'd like us to start a new thread for Kira? That way, we can more easily follow all the info and discussion about each of the two girls. If you'd like, I can go back through this thread and make "copies" of all your replies that also contain important info about Kira. I can then transfer those copies to a brand new thread. And then from this point onward, all new information about Kira can be posted on that new thread. And this thread can remain reserved for Mira. Does that sound like a good idea to you? I'll be happy to take care of it for you if you'd like.

Marianne

labblab

11-22-2010, 02:42 PM

Janis, I decided to go ahead and take the bull by the horns and I set up a new thread for Kira this afternoon. I haven't changed anything here on Mira's thread. All the replies have been left here just as they were posted. But I made copies of those replies that also talk about Kira's testing, and I placed those copies on Kira's new thread. Here it is:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2742

I hope this looks OK to you! Just let me know if it does not, and I will change it. But I'm hoping that this will make it easier for us all to follow Kira's testing and possible treatment. I figure sweet Kira deserves a thread of her own...:o

Marianne

Altira

11-22-2010, 05:03 PM

Yes I thought starting a new thread would be good but after Mira is gone. I'm afraid no one will come back here. The story is no less complicated with Mira but it's so much harder to talk about. The best I can do is just bits and pieces right now.

Our regular vet called he suggested someone to come to the house. But I dont want her to die here. I don't want to see her die. God I'm being torn apart. She is ok right now. Drugged up but ok but her liver could rupture any time. She is only seven she has a right to every good moment left. She looks so peaceful knoding off to sleep. I offer a treat, she doesn't want it right now but Kira sure does. Kira is getting way too many treats!

The vet said that Dr Sebastian at VSS is wonderful at tumor removal. He said that he has been successful at many cases that seemed hopeless. not the adrinal type but another very touchy one. He said ten years ago this type of surgery for dogs was unheard of. He said if anyone can get Kira through it Sabastian can. And he amited that adrenal removal is the most dangerous surgery in dogs right now. His confidence in Sebastion is encouraging. And we know Sebastian. He did both of Kiras legs. He knows Kira. Her other leg was just done in May. And a big thank you to who ever noted that place where he studied (or worked?) as being a great place. That sure helps alot. Anyone know how much this might cost me? I will get you all the missing pieces I swear I will. And little by little I will read these posts better.

Ok I will get Kiras bp meds right away. Thank you for that input. But I don't want to leave Mira agian so soon. She had seperation anxiety so bad for most all her short life. I just left her an hour ago to go get things she might eat. The welcoming committee greeted me. I wish she could go with me but the ride in the car might be too ruff. I wish bud were here. Mira would eat none of the good things I bought an hour ago. There is a good chance she will later.

I try to get my mind off Mira and stop freeking out and concentrate on Kira. You know I stop in here like twenty times a day hoping to here from someone. You know she looks so peaceful right now. The prednisone makes her breath so hard and fast and she cant sleep. I think she is asleep right now. But when she hasnt taken it in awhile she starts to limp. Oh hell I should try to rest to I guess. More later

frijole

11-22-2010, 05:21 PM

We are all here and reading and sending love... we might not post each time but please know we are here. Kim

Squirt's Mom

11-22-2010, 07:07 PM

Hi Janis,

As Kim says, we are here listening and sending all the hope, strength, and love we can to you and your girls even if we don't actually post anything. ;)

Sometimes it is hard for folks to know what to say, what not to say, so we just don't say anything for fear of making the situation worse. We ask ourselves, would she want to talk about Mira right now? Maybe they are having a good time and don't want to be reminded of things at this moment. So we wait, wanting to help and not hurt, but not really sure what to do.

Then there are folks like me who you wish would shut-the-crap-up but just keep on writing....:rolleyes:

We are here, honey, even when silent, we are here.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

frijole

11-22-2010, 07:43 PM

Janis - I lost my first dog this year, in May. She was 16 1/2. It hurt like hell. I prayed that when her time came she would die in her sleep so I didn't have to make any decisions. During her last year, in addition to cushings she was nearly blind and nearly deaf. But she managed to get around the house just fine and she still loved to eat. She was frail and had good and bad days. There were times I wondered how I would know it was time. I really struggled with whether or not I was being selfish but everything I read said "you will know when it is time".

I woke up one morning and she was walking in circles and could not stop. More than likely a stroke. I knew I had no choice. I had little time because it was a Saturday and the vet's office closed in 2 hrs. It was so tough. I was by her side to the end thanking her endlessly for the wonderful life she gave me. They gave her a shot and it was over.

I am in no way telling you what to do because only you know your dog. I am just sharing my experience if it can help you at all. You are right - it is not fair at all. Just keep loving her every day, hug her, give her treats when she'll take them. And when it is time I think you too will know. And NO ONE can take away all the wonderful memories you have of the healthy times. Bless you.

Continued best wishes. Kim

Altira

11-22-2010, 11:23 PM

Kim - thanks for sharing that.

We have lost three dogs each one similar to what happened to you. Old age. When the first one pooped sand! I knew. He hadn't walked in days. Couldn't stand up. It was hard but i knew, i had no problem taking him. The next one was 14 1/2! Man I was so greatful for that. She suffered for months. She had a seizure. First one I had ever seen She looked at me one day and I knew. I made the apointment and I kept it. Icarried her in myself. And cried this horrible sound. I saw both of those after they were gone. It was nice to see them not suffering anymore. The third had many seizures. He spent a lot of time at ACC. We had to go away and i knew he would not make it until we got back. He was only 11. I did not go see him.

Mira will be our 4th husky to leave us and the whole picture has changed. She was to be possibly our last husky. I would be sixty then. Huskys are hard to handle. I had thought she would out live Kira by a lot, she is our baby. But no god suddenly desided to take her from us, to me she is just a child. How do i let her go? How can i take away what little is left. All the things that gave way to exceptance just don't work here. And on top of that the way she is expected to go is the worst torcher for me possible. That look that says it's time to go will never come. I'm not looking into the face of an old dog. I'm looking into the face of a still beautiful young dog who is being robbed of half her life. She hasn't suffered that much. My gosh only a month ago her life was bliss. Only a month ago I looked at Kira and Mira and thoughtlife is good. Mira can walk, she eats, she can see and hear and light up with interest. It's all changed none of the rules apply. I thought I had learned to do this pretty well. But I find myself in the most horrible situation ever. Do I put her down now? Or wait until god takes her? I know im not the first one to face this I just never expected to be torn up this way. I'm terrified of what I will feel when it's over cus all I can see is total rage !! And sadly as time goes on and I get another husky I'll look at Miras picture and not even remember her. What once was will be completely gone. How else could I servive? I hate that in me.

frijole

11-22-2010, 11:49 PM

Understand entirely. Its like you are playing God and having to make very tough decisions without knowing what the 'rules' are. I am glad that Mira is able to walk, eating well and seems to enjoy life. Its all about quality of life. The uncertainty has got to be difficult to deal with. Perhaps you could just come out and ask your vet for advice on how to know when its time? They certainly understand you want every single possible minute of quality time. Since they are more familiar with the 'signs' they could serve as your guide? Just throwing out ideas trying to help a bit. It sounds like the vets are good ones. Plus they know you are dealing with serious issues with Kira at the same time.

Keep the faith. Kim

Franklin'sMum

11-23-2010, 03:09 AM

(((((HUGS)))))

Jane, Franklin and Bailey xxx

Altira

11-23-2010, 03:10 AM

Im drowning here please.
Anyone...
I don't think I can..
Save myself

(how to destory angels)

Franklin'sMum

11-23-2010, 03:22 AM

Oh, honey :(

We're here for you, I don't know what to say

BestBuddy

11-23-2010, 03:27 AM

missbeagle

11-23-2010, 07:24 AM

labblab

11-23-2010, 07:32 AM

Dogs are in the now and don't think about yesterday and how good it was or even tomorrow it is just now.

You are the only one who can help Mira whatever that turns out to be.

Jenny
I think our Jenny is very, very wise :o. And Janis, I think what she has written speaks to the heart of your greatest burden as well as your greatest gift.

Mira does not know she is only seven, and deserves so many more days of sunshine and long walks and love. And she does not know of the tumors inside her body that will surely end her life here on this earth. That knowledge is your terrible burden, not hers. And so she does not feel regret, or fear of the future. Again, those burdens are yours.

But because of your burden of knowledge, you also have the power to spare her the pain that the tumors will bring. It is hard to think of that as a gift. It is surely not a gift to you. But sparing Mira pain is a gift for her. The tumors are a certainty, and they are what are killing her. So if and when you decide to take her in, you will be releasing her from the power of the tumors and the pain that they carry.

I think Mira has reached a point where nobody would question your decision to release her. Not us, not the doctors, not Bud. And so I think you are left with the questions that are an absolute torture when we are faced with this burden and this gift. Is today the day when I release Mira and my heart explodes? As hard as it is to let her go, will I feel even worse if her liver ruptures and she ends up suffering terribly when I could have prevented it?

Today may not yet be the day when you have those answers. And if not, then I know you will continue to surround Mira with love. Just as you have every day of her seven years in your care. At this point, I feel certain that there is nothing left unsaid. You've told her what a good girl she is, and how much you love her. You've told her that she is your pretty, pretty Mira. And so I do believe that Mira herself is ready for her release, either when God takes her or when the morning comes when your gift is to be given.

And we will stay here with you, Janis.

Marianne

StarDeb55

11-23-2010, 09:54 AM

Janis, I have not posted to you before, but have been closely following Kira's story. First of all, let me say how truly sorry I am about what is happening with Mira. I want to relate what happened to me a little over a month ago.

I had a little 15 1/2 year old Shih Tzu, Harley. Granted Harley was a little old man, he did have Cushing's, but was in pretty good health. He had had periodic eye infections due to his Cushing's. I knew his left eye was bothering him, so I finally got him into to the eye vet at the end of August. Yes, he had a bad left eye infection. I took him in for a recheck in early October. The vet is checking him, proceeds to ask me if I had seen "this". She lifts his lip on the upper left side of his jaw where I see a huge tumor on his upper jaw. I was absolutely speechless. I immediately made an appointment for his regular vet on Monday as I thought it was probably a very bad dental abscess. This was all on Thursday morning. I got up the next morning, found blood spray all over the side of bed where Harley sleeps. This is when I freaked out. I rushed him into his regular vet that afternoon, to make a long story short, that mass was some type of malignant tumor that had already spread to his lungs. The mass was not there when he first saw the eye vet 5 weeks earlier. This little boy had had a couple of periods of kind of "wheezy" breathing over that month & that was his only symptom. He was eating well for him, ( the world's pickiest eater), & just being normal. After I was called with the chest x-ray report that the malignancy was in his lungs, I was absolutely heartbroken & stricken with grief. I knew there was no other choice, so I released Harley to cross the bridge 4 days later. I'm glad I did what I had to do, because I find out later that Harley's situation was much worse than any of the vets or I were aware of. I'm not telling you what you should do. I think it's truly heartbreaking that Mira's life is being cut short, but as Jenny said, our pups live in the now. Mira is happy that you are here Mom, now. She doesn't know that she won't live out her expected lifespan. She doesn't think about what will happen tomorrow or a few days from now, that is the awful burden for our pup's humans to bear.

I hope you are able to find the strength & peace you need over the coming days.

Debbie

Squirt's Mom

11-23-2010, 01:48 PM

Hi Janis,

It has occurred to me that there is something I haven't shared with you and since I am currently experiencing this phenomenon myself, I thought you might be interested.

It's called "twitching" and it happens like this - we see something odd/different in our babies and immediately our minds start firing -

"What was THAT?!"
stare at dog....

"What does that MEAN?!"
stare at dog...

"It could mean A, or B, or OMG! even Z!!"
stare at dog...

"What do I DO?!"
stare at dog...

"omg omg omg!!!!!!!"

Not everyone is subject to this condition and some will experience a milder form. Then there are those who will start twitching at the least little provocation and rapidly twitch themselves into a frenzied state. For the uninitiated, this can be a disconcerting and frightening state to observe. Many people cannot handle a twitcher during a full blown episode, falling back in dismay, fearing what they do not comprehend, or being overcome with such a feeling of helplessness they simply watch and listen.

There are no known cures for this condition tho some "experts" hypothesize that receiving answers to the questions racing through the minds of the afflicted and/or accumulating knowledge and experience can treat the symptoms when they arise.

As one who suffers with this condition, all I can say to that is -

ppfffttttttttttttttttttttt

Altira

11-23-2010, 03:51 PM

I hear you.

I do understand that you are having a really tough time but only you have the power.

I have been where you are and it is not easy but you have to consider Quality of life for Mira. That means eating, drinking, toileting and pain free BUT it also means pleasure. Is she happy and does she respond to patting and loving.

Eating she will eat about 2 to 4 cups a day still. She drinks lots of water and chicken broth sometimes. She only peed in the house the one time weeks ago. She wants out pretty often. She always askes. Her poop is pretty much liquid at times but i'm feeding her stuff that would easly do that to her. I've been giving her pepto now and then. Pain free? I didn't even know this dog had stage 4 cancer. I didn't have a clue. Pain? I have no idea!!! She gets lathargic and wobbly at times but that could be the Tramadol. Any odd thing she does can be explained as something else. I suspect pain is not real bad. Is she happy? Like she used to be? Not even close. But Mira has always had a sad look about her. Sometimes she growls when i touch her. Sometimes she moves away. (sob) Some times she lets me pet her. She still is following me everywhere. She always keeps herself in my line of view. Always. But just weeks ago I could rub the top of her head and her eyes would drift closed in contentment. Just weeks ago I could open my arms to her and she would come to me slightly waging with her head lowered and press her head against me and just stand there letting me rub her. THAT is gone! (sob)

What would you call her current state of mind???

Dogs are in the now and don't think about yesterday and how good it was or even tomorrow it is just now.

You are the only one who can help Mira whatever that turns out to be.

If it is not her time then just love her everyday.

Jenny

See bold text above...

Altira

11-23-2010, 04:02 PM

Janis -

We are all with you in spirit and we know this is such a difficult time for you.

Mira will let you know if/when it is time. She will make her own decision and she will find a way to let you know.

It might be they way she looks at you, or some other way. If she's eating, drinking, and getting around still, then it is not time yet.

Have you given her a peanut butter kong lately? Have you been taking pictures of her, of her with Kira, of you with her, of you and Bud with her? Pictures will help when she is gone.

But are they ever really gone? They linger in our hearts forever because a dog is pure love wrapped in fur.

((((Hugs))))

Gretchen in NC

Peanut butter yes! Every day. Far too much. But it's her favorite thing. She almost comes running for it. We are on our second jar. I think it's my guide. Last night she only ate half of it. But she had eaten chicken before that.

Pictures? My gosh I have thousands I think. I'm currently taking probably 30 a day. I wish I could put them in my posts so you could see her current condition each day. She will have her own album when she's gone, just like all the rest that have passed. God showed me the Siberain Husky one day, I'll never forget it and I've wanted nothing else since.

Altira

11-23-2010, 04:21 PM

I know it won't be long. She just lead me to the back door so she could go out. When she squates she is holding her left leg out father then the right. She just pooped pancakes. Her walk is abit wobbly, her hind end is getting bony. Much of that could be from the numerous differnt kinds of treats and foods. They said to feed her anything she wants... The tramadol makes her wobblie. But how much longer can I bare to see her this way. It's so damn sad. It seems worse late at night. She kept wanting to stay out side in the frezzing cold. Then this morning I snuck out to go get Kira's bp meds. When I got back Mira was at the back door waiting for me. Her bright eyes greeting me. I was so suprized. She lead me through the bedroom but turned to make a trip up to the head of the bed to say hello to her daddy. Her daddy said hello back. This was a first really in a way. Then we went into the kitchen and ate a little. I don't know.