Erik snapped at The Boss of Applesauce

[ChristyA]

Erik has always been very gentle but the other day he growled at Isabelle and snapped in her direction. She was visibly shaken and understandably so. Then he growled at me last night. I took Erik to the vet today to make sure all the stitches were out from his analsacectomy, they are all out. The vet said he might be trying to go from being the butler to the prince and get him back into obedience. He's big 85 lbs of flat-coated retriever, he's going back to obedience as soon as the next session starts.

Christy

[lulusmom]

Wow, Christy, that is not a good thing so I am very happy to hear that you are getting Erik back into obedience training. Did this behavior just come out of nowhere?

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Christy,

that must have been a scary experience...for sure. Going back to obedience class is definately a good thing but I would be very interested to find out why it is that Eric felt he could growl and snap at both Isabelle and you. There must have been a reason (at least from Eric's perspective) And it's kind of important to know and understand that reason in order to tackle his new growling/snapping behaviour to succesfully resolve it. Was he protecting his space...a toy...food...anything? Was he supposed to do something (like move because he was in the way) and he didn't feel like it and let you/Isabelle know by growling? And what is his age? Around 3 years of age, he will be fully matured and sometimes you see that dogs, when they reach this maturity, will attempt to take control because they feel strong and powerfull. (very natural of course...) Also it's possible he was "pampered" a bit too much after his surgery and now feels, like the vet said, he is no longer the butler but the prince :) But it would be very helpfull if you could figure out what exactly caused Eric to growl. "Just" saying it's dominant behaviour and go back to obedience might not be sufficient since you're not actually adressing the real issue/reasons for Eric's behaviour. And you might train and do obedience till you drop...but there still is Eric and Isabelle. The fact he did growl at both you and Isabelle is saying that Eric feels he can do this.

I would start today with simple rules but very effective ones to put Eric back in line. Dogs are very bodylanguage orientated. And there are a few simple things you AND Isabelle can/should do from now on.

Never let Eric go through a door first. You, Isabelle...all other people should go through the door before Eric does. Never play, cuddle, feed or give Eric a treat without asking him to do something first. You want to cuddle with him? Great, let him sit first. He needs to earn everything, nothing is free. Dogs that have free access to all kinds of things, feel like they are in charge. By having him perform a task first, however simple, you are sending a clear message that you are in charge of all his "things", his toys, his playtime, his food, his cuddles, just everything he might desire. It's in these little things you show a dog he's lower ranked then everyone else. It's a "language" all dogs understand because it's doggy language. Show him in your behaviour that you're the packleader...no need to yell, scream, hit or lay him on his back..or other nonsense like that :) Change your bodylanguage, your behaviour and you are sending Eric a strong message...he will understand. These are things you can start with right now. And perhaps you can shed some light on why exactly Eric growled and snapped...so we can help you better if possible.

Good luck,

Saskia and Yunah :)

[Carol G]

Christy,

To add a little to Saskia's good advice, google NILIF (Nothing in life is free). It will give you great advice (it is highly recommended for cattle dogs who tend to be a handful). If it happens again, I would recommend that you consult a highly recommended behaviorist (as opposed to a regular dog trainer) in your area for some sessions. This is just something that you want to be sure to nip in the bud (pun intended).

Carol & Atty and always Winnie & McGill (definitely a handful)

[AlisonandMia]

We practice NILF with Zac and its the basis of everything we do with him. It works well with our feisty Quaker Parrot, Charlie, too - all QP's are feisty and too smart for their own good and that little birdie would love to rule the roost if he could wangle it!

Getting Erik's thyroid function checked out wouldn't be a bad idea either. Many shelters will check this in any dog with remotely aggressive behavior even if they display no other signs of low thyroid. From what I can see, courtesy of Google, it looks like Flat Coated Retrievers may be somewhat prone to thyroid problems.

Alison

[ChristyA]

Thank you so much to everyone. You guys are the best.

My vet does know of a behaviorist that he can recommend if needed. We are doing the NILF which I never did with Dexter or Sophie but they never had any problems with anybody or anything even when young. We did baby Erik quite a bit when he had his surgery recently. And since he has been out of obedience classes we've probably gotten soft. He seems to be the type that needs to know who is in charge.

Also I asked Isabelle again about the snapping incident. She admitted she was trying to give Erik a hug, which is something she used to do to Sophie, but that was a different dog. Erik doesn't like closeness he gets very nervous if you try to contain him in any way. Almost like a panic,,possibly something from his past owners. She knows she is not to hug him at all, no exceptions!

Alison, I will ask the vet to check his thyroid. I know they are prone to cancer but I didn't know about thyroid.

I appreciate all of your help.
Christy
On another note; I still miss Dexter & Sophie so much. I thought it would be easier by now but I still find myself in tears once in a while and wishing they were still here. I still wonder if I did right by Dexter if there wasn't something else I could have done. I know Sophie's heart was not going to make it one more day. I had Dexter 9 months before I got Sophie. And ironically Sophie lived 9 months longer than Dexter. I found out by looking at their AKC papers about a month ago they were from the same litter. I got Dexter from a pet store (I know no pet stores) and a friend gave Sophie to me.

[k9diabetes]

I was thinking the same thing about the thyroid. Especially since this seems to be a new development.

We have had problems with our Jack, who was adopted a year ago and is just now about two years old. We have been doing some consults with a good behaviorist plus taking Jack to some classes so he can learn and mix with other people and dogs. A consult with a behaviorist would be good if you can find one as I like to have someone work with the dog to see exactly what the issues might be.

And make sure he's not in any pain somewhere...

Natalie

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Christy,

I'm actually pretty reliefed reading why Eric snapped and growled at Isabella. All dogs have their boundaries and some have their boundaries a bit less broad then others. If hugging is crossing Eric's boundaries (and always has been, as I understand it) then in fact, what Eric did, was excellent dog behaviour :) A dog with a lot less "doggy social and language" skills, wouldn't have reacted to the crossing of his boundaries as Eric has. In "doggy language"...or in other words, when dogs communicate with one another growling is a warning (saying: stay away, you're crossing my boundaries). If the other dog doesn't back off, the dog will snap (saying: I mean serious business, you back off right now or else I may have to resort to other measures) Most dogs will turn around after the first growl and walk away....the message was understood :) The problem with especially children but many adults as well is that they don't "understand" doggy language and definately not listen to it. But Eric was acting perfectly acceptable...for a dog :) A dog with behavioral issues would have bitten and not have followed the proper doggy language protocal...first growl, then snap and if all fails, then bite. The incident with Isabella wasn't a dominance related issue which I am very glad to learn. It was a "crossing the boundaries" issue...which is most definately not the same. And...Eric's reaction was a very appropriate one (considering he is a dog ;))...which too, pleases me a lot :) Would it be easier to have a dog that didn't have boundarie issues with hugging, especially with a child around? Sure, but just like us, humans, dogs all have their own boundaries and some need more space then others.

Now, all we need to know is the circumstances under which Eric growled at you...?

And yes, some dogs need more (constant) reminding of where their place in their pack is, true. But even with my Yunah, the most mellow and laid back dog one can imagine, I still follow the NILF rules with her, it's second nature to me to treat any dog according to the NILF rules. Not because Yunah needs the reminder but because all dogs love the security it gives them. It constantly reinforces their position which is very secure for any dog. And it's "language" they understand...it's communicating to your dog in their language :) I use lots of doggy language...not just the NILF but also calming sings like yawning. If a dog is stressed, nervous, insecure...just start yawning with a wide open mouth. People may look funny at you, but your dog will understand what you are communicating to him :)

Oh well, I can go on endlessly talking about dogs, their behaviour and the way to communicate...but let me just say I was very reliefed to read about the circumstances in which Eric growled and snapped at Isabelle. No red flags to me...at all. In fact, exemplary dog behaviour and skills :) He has shown he can restrict himself, he doesn't resort to biting as a first mean (not even to a child that, by nature, is the lower in rank to him)

Just keep the NILF going, keep explaining to Isabella about boundaries and doggy language (whenever a dog growls at you...back off! That it is his way of sayng, you are doing something I do not like) and if possible... tell why Eric growled at you.

Best of luck,

Saskia and Yunah :)

[AlisonandMia]

I too am glad that Erik had "good reason" for his behavior towards Isabelle.

I believe that dogs find being hugged quite stressful - for some the human attention is enough of a payoff to make it ok or even enjoyable but many find it actually quite unpleasant and some are downright scared by it, like Erik. They experience being grabbed like that as aggressive. If one of us hugs Zac (my son is a real hugger) he has a look on his face that says, "Oh well, if you must ... yeah I love you too .... but geez I can't wait till this stops!" And he kind of leans away from the person.

There is something that I've noticed with Zac and that is that he's much calmer if he is only petted with one hand at a time. I couldn't work out why he was markedly calmer with some family members, particularly me, compared with others. Then I realized that I habitually only pet him with one hand at a time whereas my son (aged 19) for instance uses both hands. When he switches to just one hand Zac relaxes visibly. He (Zac) isn't aggressive about it or anything but his body will be just a little tenser when someone is using two hands. If the human hand is more or less the equivalent of the dog's head and mouth then this makes sense; when you use two hands it is more or less two onto one, and most dogs will want to do something to stop two other dogs jumping on and licking and sniffing them at the same time.

Once I realized what was going on, I did an experiment with the kids and my husband and myself. First I stroked someone around their head, neck and shoulders with one hand - which they found not unpleasant and even quite enjoyed, but when I switched to using two hands they'd tend to duck out of the way, say "stop it" or try to fend me off! It had the same effect on me when others did it to me.

Has anyone else noticed this with dogs - or themselves?

Alison

[SasAndYunah]

You have a very good point there, Alison :) The thing is, hugs and cuddles are human ways of interacting/communicating, not the doggy way of communicating. And while some dogs are very tolerant towards us, silly humans, with our strange behaviours, many do not appreciate (actually understand) it. And why don't they appreciate/understand it? Actually, quite simple. If you look closely at all the moves/gestures we make while we hug/cuddle a dog, in doggy language those same movements are perceived as very dominant behaviour. And in the "real" dogworld, even a more dominant dog, will not show dominant behaviour to a less dominant dog...for no reason. And that is what happens, we show very dominant behaviour to our dogs as we cuddle and hug them and this threatens them (the growling...) or makes them insecure (looking away, physically backing away from us..) because they don't understand why we behave so dominant for no reason.

We bent over to reach down to the dog (extremely dominant behaviour), most people will hug/cuddle the dog on top of his head/shoulders (extremely dominant gesture) and especially children will throw both arms around the dogs neck (extremely dominant behaviour). And while all this is going on, most will also look the dog in the eyes. In doggy language, we couldn't behave more dominant even if we wanted to :) Knowing and understanding this...what should we do instead? We should especially teach children and everyone visiting our home to not ever pet the dog on top of the head/shoulders! The proper way to pet a dog is to pet him from underneath his chin. (in the case you have a dog that tolerates petting of course) Also teach them to never look the dog in the eyes as they pet the dog... If we pet this way, most dogs will accept it and it's much more pleasurable for them and lot less dangerous for us humans :)

It's all so fascinating...and actually very simple, once you see your dog for what he is...a dog :) I sometimes get critised for saying things like...."It's a dog...therefore you should treat him like a dog". To some people that statement seems to translate to "It's a dog therefore you can treat him bad". But that is not at all what I am saying. What I try to explain by explaining this like I just did is that we so often forget that dogs are not little humans. They have adapted exceptionally well to a life with humans but still they speak doggy language and we speak human language...and this is where it most often goes wrong between humans and dogs. So many people will say, after they got bitten by their dog wanting to cuddle the dog... "I was just showing him how much I love him". Yes...in our human language. But...you were not interacting with a human, you were interacting with a dog ;) No matter how smart dogs are, in the end we are (well, should be) the smartest one. And we should understand that when we comminicate with our dogs, that they are not capable of understanding the human way of communicating and therefore we should do the best we can to communicate to them in their language.. :)

Saskia and Yunah :)

[ChristyA]

Thank you for all your input. I am reading and digesting all of it. Saskia you are absolutely correct about humanizing our pups. Yunah is really a lucky girl. I will keep you updated.
Christy
"Yesterday I was a dog.

Today I am a dog.

Tomorrow I'll probably still be a dog.

There is no hope for advancement."

--Snoopy :D

[Roxee's Dad]

I too am glad that Erik had "good reason" for his behavior towards Isabelle.

I believe that dogs find being hugged quite stressful - for some the human attention is enough of a payoff to make it ok or even enjoyable but many find it actually quite unpleasant and some are downright scared by it, like Erik. They experience being grabbed like that as aggressive. If one of us hugs Zac (my son is a real hugger) he has a look on his face that says, "Oh well, if you must ... yeah I love you too .... but geez I can't wait till this stops!" And he kind of leans away from the person.

Mickee does not like to be hugged. He is a 2 timer rescue. The first family that adopted him had an autistic child. Apparently the child hugged him tight and often. He was turned back in after a few years because he was scratching the child. I still pick him up and hug him. He takes it for about 30 to 45 seconds and then bolts. When he bolts, it's at any cost, I have had a few bruises and bloody lips from his head hitting me. Although he is happy cuz usually afterwards he rolls on the floor and jumps on the couch and knocks all the pillows off.:D He also doesn't like babies or toddlers. We had to teach our grandson that it was okay to hug Roxee, Rozee and now LittleBit but not Mickee. Mickee will avoid him and often go in the other room.


There is something that I've noticed with Zac and that is that he's much calmer if he is only petted with one hand at a time. I couldn't work out why he was markedly calmer with some family members, particularly me, compared with others. Then I realized that I habitually only pet him with one hand at a time whereas my son (aged 19) for instance uses both hands. When he switches to just one hand Zac relaxes visibly. He (Zac) isn't aggressive about it or anything but his body will be just a little tenser when someone is using two hands. If the human hand is more or less the equivalent of the dog's head and mouth then this makes sense; when you use two hands it is more or less two onto one, and most dogs will want to do something to stop two other dogs jumping on and licking and sniffing them at the same time.

Once I realized what was going on, I did an experiment with the kids and my husband and myself. First I stroked someone around their head, neck and shoulders with one hand - which they found not unpleasant and even quite enjoyed, but when I switched to using two hands they'd tend to duck out of the way, say "stop it" or try to fend me off! It had the same effect on me when others did it to me.

Has anyone else noticed this with dogs - or themselves?

Alison

Mickee does like it when I stroke his face with both hands but not crazy about hugs.

Rozee likes it when I stroke her face with both hands but not comfortable with being hugged, carried yes, hugged no. She does like to lay next to Pattee or I with some part of her body always touching us. Sleeping is the same way too but usually I get the butt in the face:o

LittleBit (lost dog that found us last March) is still an ongoing comedy adventure. She will push and or pull your hands to get a face massage, belly rubs, loves to be hugged. She thinks 2 hands are way better than 1.:D:D:D

[AlisonandMia]

I must say that Zac loves to have his ears pulled gently (but firmly) - and having both ears pulled at the same time rather than one is at least twice as lovely!:D And if you keep both hands close together and moving symmetrically especially under his chin, he seems to experience it as one hand but if one hand is on his chest and the other under his chin say, he will be less relaxed.

He also loves having his shoulders rubbed in a big circular movement - having the skin rolled over his bones rather than the fur ruffled. He definitely prefers to have one shoulder done at a time even if it is just because he can lean into your hand better. In fact he likes this all along his side and rump too - but one hand at time is definitely best. Loves a tummy rub as well but he only gets those when I say "tummy rub" not when he just throws himself at my feet. I tend to use that as a reward.

Another reason he may be more relaxed with just one hand is that when using one hand you are less likely to be bending down over him which, as Saskia said, is very threatening for a dog. I find when I'm using one hand I'm more likely to be bending sort of sideways rather than hunching over and looming over him.

Alison

[ChristyA]

Erik does like to have his face gently scratched, he makes old man noises, and he likes to have his chest scratched. Lulu likes any and all attention from anyone.
Christy

I posted pics in the gallery of everyone.

[BestBuddy]

Christy,

I just loved looking at the pictures. Old memories to keep and new memories to come.

Jenny

[labblab]

Oh Christy, your pictures are wonderful!!!!! I'm so glad you've included the picture of Isabelle and Dexter at the window together -- that one just tugs at my heart...:o But like Jenny said, these photos are a wonderful collection of past, present, and future joy and companionship. And Isabelle is beautiful! :) :) :)

Marianne

[lulusmom]

Oh Christy, I just looked at your photo album and experienced any number of emotions. I laughed, I smiled, I felt my heart melt, I took a trip down memory lane and the very last picture of the "Boss" and Dexter made me cry like a baby. That is one of the most precious pictures I have ever seen!!! I'm sitting here at work with tears running down my face and hoping nobody pop into my office. Thank you so much for sharing all of your babies (and you) with us. You are all cuties.

Glynda

P.S. I'm going to show my Lulu your Lulu when I get home. :D:D:D

[ChristyA]

Thank you my friends. I miss Dexter & Sophie so much. They were a once in a lifetime event. The photo of Isabelle and Dexter is one of my very favorites of all time.
Christy