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Thread: Squirt - my Queen has crossed The Bridge

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Squirt, PHD and Atypical

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirt's Mom View Post
    Now, I have a question for all of you...if I ever knew this info, it has fallen through one of the many cracks in my feeble mind.

    Which one is supposed to work on the estradiol produced outside the adrenals - melatonin or lignans, or both? and how?

    Leslie
    Geeze, Les, you might as well ask why the earth is round. You cannot believe how many times I've read the UTK info on this and how many times I've accessed the dictionary to try to understand all the big words. One big word begat another big word and so on and so on until my eyes roll back into my head and I start cussing. There is no way that I could ever explain the actual process by which those six adrenal hormones magically appear but I'll try to give you a quick and dirty that I hope you can understand. So here goes nothing.

    Aromatase is an enzyme that is involved in the production of estrogen. It acts by catalyses (big word – look it up) the conversion of testosterone to estradiol, which is an estrogen by the way. Aromatase enzyme is located in the estrogen producing cells in the adrenal glands, ovaries, placenta, testicles, fat tissue and the brain. Note to self: Lysodren only targets the adrenals so it has no effect if the estradiol is being produced in the latter five areas of the body. Melatonin, a naturally occurring hormone in the body that we cushdog parents buy in a bottle, is an aromatase inhibitor. UTK always recommends Melatonin and phytoestrogen treatment when estradiol is elevated. [Phytoestrogens, sometimes called "dietary estrogens", are a diverse group of naturally occurring non steroidal plant compounds that, because of their structural similarity with estradiol (17-β-estradiol), have the ability to cause estrogenic or/and antiestrogenic effects] Lignans, found in the flaxseed, has the highest concentration of phytoestrogen found in plants. Lignans is also an aromatase inhibitor and with its phytoestrogenic activity, competes with estradiol for tissue estrogen receptors. So the quick answer to your question is if estradiol is elevated, UTK recommends both Melatonin and Lignans

    21 hydroxylase is an enzyme which is involved in the biosythesis of aldosterone and cortisol. Melatonin inhibits the 21 hydroxylase enzyme.

    3-beta-HSD is an enzyme which catalyses the synthesis of progesterone from pregnenolone, 17-hydroxyprogesterone from 17-hydroxypregnenolone, and androstenedione from dehydropiandrosterone in the adrenal gland. Note: the synthesis of all six adrenal steroids requires 3beta HSD. Melatonin and lignans inhibit 3-beta-HSD

    So there ya go.

    Glynda

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Squirt, PHD and Atypical

    Leslie -

    If I'm following the last few posts correctly this morning I'm thinking that you and I are kind of in the same place with our babies. You're trying the flax hulls now and still using the melatonin with the possibility of adding a maintenance dose of Lysodren for Squirt, right?
    You're holding off on the maintenance of Lysodren though until you can see what the flax hulls can do - your "twitch" intuition. This is kind of my story with Crash. His last visit to the vet showed his enzyme numbers coming down - still high, but down. I took this as a good sign, but when I asked a few questions including the switch to flax hulls Crash's doctor decided to email Dr. Oliver for some clarification. The vet and said that Dr. Oliver definitely recommends the flax hulls and mentioned a melatonin implant and the maintenance dose of Lysodren. My gut, like your twitch, I just don't want to go there yet. So our flax hulls came last Thursday and unless something drastic happens our doctor agreed to see what the flax hulls in addition to the continued dose of 6 mg of melatonin am and pm could do for a month or two before making any other decisions. So I think your twitch reinforces my gut because I was so worried about making the wrong decision. Sound familiar? I'm a worrier.

    By the way, I agree with the yes and a defininite yea to Glynda for the flaxhull.com connection! They are wonderful people to talk to if you ever have questions for them about their product, don't hesitate.

    Oh too, Glynda despite a few big words I think I followed your explanation to Leslie's question and thanks for clarifying for me too!
    Can you explain the melatonin implant also? The mere sound of "implant" stressed me out.

    Happy thoughts to all....and stay cool! It's a hazy and hot first day of summer kind of morning in the St. Louis area.

    Tammy, Crash, & Darby

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Squirt, PHD and Atypical

    Wow Glynda,
    It's going to take me days to figure out what this all means. BTW, why IS the earth round?

    Leslie, so glad that Squirt's numbers are looking good and more importantly that she is feeling good.


    PS: I just looked it up and the earth is round because of gravity. Wish cush questions and answers were that easy.
    Last edited by Roxee's Dad; 06-21-2009 at 11:00 AM. Reason: added PS
    John (Roxee & Rozee's Dad)

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Squirt, PHD and Atypical

    Hi Leslie,

    I too am glad Squirts numbers are coming down and I believe her Mom deserves a "High Five," for doing such a great job and should please, please stop being so hard on herself We love you Leslie, especially your Twitcher.

    Here's hoping the pressed hulls will bring them numbers down even lower.

    Lori

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Squirt, PHD and Atypical

    http://medical-dictionary.thefreedic....com/catalyses

    "catalysis /ca·tal·y·sis/ (kah-tal´ĭ-sis) increase in the velocity of a chemical reaction or process produced by the presence of a substance that is not consumed in the net chemical reaction or process; negative c. denotes the slowing down or inhibition of a reaction or process by the presence of such a substance.catalyt´ic" Catalyses = multiple reactions.



    Your explanation is wonderful, Glynda! I even understand the big words...for the most part. From my nutrition studies I know that beta bonds require B, or beta, enzymes for synthesis, and alpha bonds require A-enzymes. So it makes sense if estradiol is a beta bond (17-β-estradiol) an excess of the 3-beta-HSD enzyme would cause increased synthesis and higher levels.

    Since this enzyme causes synthesis of the other hormones as well, that explains why we usually see more than just the estradiol elevated, right? And if a pup had only aldosterone elevated, the phytoestrogen (lignans) would not be needed. Am I on the right track here?

    Thanks a bunch!
    Hugs,
    Leslie

    PS. I'm so glad John asked why the earth IS round!! LOL
    Last edited by Squirt's Mom; 06-21-2009 at 12:01 PM.
    "May you know that absence is full of tender presence and that nothing is ever lost or forgotten." John O'Donahue, "Eternal Echoes"

    Death is not a changing of worlds as most imagine, as much as the walls of this world infinitely expanding.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Squirt, PHD and Atypical

    Tamarah - Yes, you are on the mark with my twitching and it sounds like I have another sister twitcher.

    Squirt has been on the purified lignans and the melatonin in capsule forms starting in late summer of '08. Since her estradiol and the two progesterones have not come down as we would like, Dr O wants to put her on the hulls. Since Glynda explained the higher content of lignans, that makes sense as a higher dose should have a stronger effect.

    I, personally, won't use the implant for Squirt for several reasons. Like Scott said, it is too hard to know when the implant life runs out, resulting in possible erratic dosing. Nor do I like the idea of her having that huge needle stuck in her even once, much less over and over to replace the implant when it loses its effectiveness. So I will stick with the capsules so I know exactly what dose she gets and NO needles. But these are just my feelings. I know several folks who use the implant with no problems and are happy with it VS having to give meds twice a day.

    Heat indexes here have been running in the 110's so I know what you mean about the water consumption! All of mine have been guzzling like mad! Crys is the only one who seems to like this weather. She wants to stay out in it but I don't let her for very long.

    John - thanks for the kinds words and for finding out just why the earth is round.

    Lori - you're a doll and I really appreciate the support! You do know we love you, too?

    Hugs,
    Leslie and Squirt
    "May you know that absence is full of tender presence and that nothing is ever lost or forgotten." John O'Donahue, "Eternal Echoes"

    Death is not a changing of worlds as most imagine, as much as the walls of this world infinitely expanding.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Squirt, PHD and Atypical

    sorry to be late in posting. Congrats on bringing the numbers down. Yay Squirt!!!!

    Just FYI on the implant -- Pallie's had 3. She was due to get her next one actually this week, but it's on hold for the time being.
    My vet says that Dr. Oliver swears by them and that the melatonin gets absorbed so much better than capsules. They last about 4-6 months and I've replaced Pallie's after 5 since they take about 6 weeks to really kick into high gear. My vet checked with Dr. O once about the dosing and overlap and Dr. O wasn't concerned as long as it was within the time the implant was on its way out.

    But I say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. :-)
    Yay Squirt!
    Everything I need to know about life I learned from Pallie.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Squirt, PHD and Atypical

    Quote Originally Posted by Roxee's Dad View Post
    Wow Glynda,
    It's going to take me days to figure out what this all means. BTW, why IS the earth round?
    Actually, the earth should only be referred to as round in the contraint of two dimensions. So your search should also have explained that the earth is a sphere, I sometimes am referred to as round!

    Thanks Glynda, I knew you had that bit stored away somewhere.

    Scott

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Squirt, PHD and Atypical

    Hi Sister Twitcher!

    It's wonderful for Squirt to be responding so well

    And did I not say Glynda was "The Oracle"?

    Best wishes,

    Brother Twitcher and Angelina.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Squirt, PHD and Atypical

    Hi ya'll,

    Squirt's hull came in today so she will start on them in the morning since she had the purified form this morning.

    I took her to have her nails trimmed this afternoon and the girls were shocked that she is 11! They said she looked and acted much younger. Of course, she gets full of it when anyone works on her feet...she will show you how quick she can get away!

    Hugs,
    Leslie and Squirt

    PS. Hey Brother Twitcher...you are so right - Glynda is an oracle...and a real sweet heart to boot!
    "May you know that absence is full of tender presence and that nothing is ever lost or forgotten." John O'Donahue, "Eternal Echoes"

    Death is not a changing of worlds as most imagine, as much as the walls of this world infinitely expanding.

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